MotW: Champion

[Hellraiser]

The tonnage spent on those small lasers would've been better spent on CASE--

Or use a pair of Streaks instead of Artemis & move the Ammo so all of it could be a single CASE next to the LBX.
Another half ton of armor isn't much but the mech could use any added help.

[Hellraiser]

Along the same lines, the 1Nb was a later version (never mind that it came after the 1Nb2?) that swapped the PPC for an ER PPC when that weapon came available.

I assume your aware that the OOC issue was the Royal designer(s) put a bunch of ERPPCs on things w/ intro dates way before ERPPCs were invented.
Not that they actually did the numbering out of order.
As for TPTB fix method, well, I'd have probably gone with an "a" or "r" or "h" instead of the "b2" but hey that's me.
a being before b,  r being refit or royal, h being hegemony.

[gyedid]

So. Champion. It's overall not a great Mech, but it- wait, there's what?

You have to be ****** kidding me. Seriously?

OK. Well, sooooo... there's an LAM. It's more of a joke than anything really, but it deserves mention briefly. The CHP-1X1 was an experimental program to produce a Champion LAM, despite being larger than rules really allow. Dropping weaponry down to three medium lasers and the SRM (keeping the Artemis), the Mech becomes a 5/8/5 mover, but with the ability to transform into an AirMech (15/23). The prototype suffered major structural problems due to its weight, and was decidedly sluggish in the air, neither of which were considered positive, and after a number of tests the machine was cancelled. The TRO entry notes that the prototypes were stored on New Dallas, and one can only hope that they've been buried under rubble and never see the light of day.

Heh, you know, the Champion's appearance would almost make more sense if it were the LAM that came first.  Bergan tries to push the envelope by designing the first-ever heavy LAM, and the project fails spectacularly. Rather than scrap it completely, the company tries to recoup some of their sunk costs by redesigning the Champion as a conventional heavy 'Mech, hoping that'll be an easier sell.  But they don't put THAT much effort into the redesign (have to save time and further expenses), so the Champion still comes out looking like The LAM That Never Was.

cheers,

Gabe

[Weirdo]

Honestly, I rather like that approach.

[glitterboy2098]

Honestly, I rather like that approach.

so do i. though the official timeline doesn't work out. the champion's intro date is 2602, 82 years before the failed Shadow Hawk LAM and 84 years before the viable Stinger LAM. (and 97 years before they built the champion LAM)

[Wrangler]

What funny is MWO just made a Champion special model with Partial Wings and wonky thing is it flies more than normal Jump Jet mechs would.  It gets chance to Fly! (Non-canonly..)

[gyedid]

We find more standard materials in the internal structure of the Champion, but the new ferro-fibrous armor makes one of its first appearances in real-world time on the machine, That means we get more armor coverage per ton compared to standard plating, and that's good! The problem is that with the engine and primary weapon eating up so much of the Champion's mass, we had to skimp somewhere, and that newfangled plating is it- a fairly paltry eight tons isn't going to win a lot of awards, and in fact isn't a great deal better than the famously-thin Rifleman and Jagermech. Those famous machines have the advantage of being able to hang back from the fighting at least, limiting the amount of return fire- not here. A Mech that mounts mostly short-ranged weaponry is being asked to dash into the thick of the fighting with a surprisingly thin shell, and it's a wonder anyone survived those death-rides. Being that the SLDF was deploying things like this in company-sized groups, I suppose the plan was to lose five and run the enemy off the field with the remaining seven, but in later eras it's a concerning layout.

Actually, the Champion is in the same ballpark as the pre-existing (i.e., published first) 5/8 60-tonners.

Quickdraw--128 points (sacrifices protection for mobility)
Ost twins--144 points (paper-thin on the arms)
Dragon--160 points (best of a bad lot)

So in that respect, it fits the pattern of 'Mechs of that weight and speed being shorted on armour. This being the SLDF, though, you wanted more and better.  And that's not what TR:2750 gave us. 

cheers,

Gabe

[glitterboy2098]

and given the-1N carries 143 out of a possible 201 total (so ~71% of max) it actually is in a pretty good point for its era. it's just that our battlefield expectations have changed post-clans, and anything below 80% get seen as fragile now.

[XenopusTex]

This unit just reeks of corruption.  Single heat sinks?  Fancy ammo dependent main weapon to keep the gravy train rolling for resupply in a platform not really armoured to intermediate range.  New armour that is not only presumably stupidly expensive to replace, but is thin enough to increase the chances of having internal damage in a firefight, requiring not just replacing the shiny new armour, but also ensuring an ongoing demand for spare parts.

Reminds me of cheap gold plated jewelry, the outside looks good (for a while), but the inside is cheap pot-metal.  Here, shiny new kit syndrome on the armour, utter garbage on the inside.  I wonder how much of a stake the people who approved purchasing this weapons system had the manufacturing concern. 

[SteelRaven]

The single heat sinks may have also been a cost cutting measure. The Champion was just that much cheaper than other LB-10X platforms at the time, second only to the Hoplite and while the armor was expensive, the standard engine meant you only needed to replace the armor and not the entire mech (unless everything went pair shape) The Royal Griffin and the Royal Shadowhawk could do the same job better but both where that much more expensive and reserved for the Royal Division.

That said, the Hoplite is cheaper and tougher. The Champion is faster though and ... wait, the heaver 60 ton mech is 5/8 and the lighter 55 ton mech is 4/6 with more armor...

Well, not the first time the SLDF was prone to approving questionable designs... nor the worst ... *glares at Charger 1A1* 

[glitterboy2098]

it is worth noting that DHS were only 35 years old when the champion walked off the assembly line. DHS intro date is 2567, the champion in 2602. odds are the DHS supply might have been prioritized to other designs at the time, or the design team not familiar enough with the use of the hardware (in terms of actual engineering) to make them confident they could get a good result using them.


edit: Ferro Fiberous armor was 31 years old (intro date  2571 for the non-prototype version.. the prototype version was around 2557), and the LB10X was only 7 years old (2595 intro).. Artemis IV was only 4 years old. (2598 intro) but one would imagine that a variant armor ('mech skin' basically) would be easier to design around than a radical shift in coolant system. and now i'm wondering if the champion was the first production use of artemis and LBX AC's.
also makes me wonder of the design might have been originally conceived of as using all introtech (like the -2N) and then they slapped on some new tech to make it more appealing to the SLDF generals.. using the mass saved from the LBX to fit the artemisIV, and reskinning it in ferro.


edit 2: so the Warhammer -6Rb intros with artemis IV the year after Artemis IV was deployed, so it's probably the first. but the champion might have been the first non-royal to use it. and it may have been the first production Mech design to use use the LBX. certainly helps explain some of the oddities of the design. it may be that the SLDF insisted they fit both in order to showcase the technology to the wider IS.

[Starfury]

One fix for the Champion might also be Endo Steel combined with the Ferro. 

[Weirdo]

The single heat sinks may have also been a cost cutting measure. The Champion was just that much cheaper than other LB-10X platforms at the time, second only to the Hoplite and while the armor was expensive, the standard engine meant you only needed to replace the armor and not the entire mech (unless everything went pair shape) The Royal Griffin and the Royal Shadowhawk could do the same job better but both where that much more expensive and reserved for the Royal Division.

That said, the Hoplite is cheaper and tougher. The Champion is faster though and ... wait, the heaver 60 ton mech is 5/8 and the lighter 55 ton mech is 4/6 with more armor...

Well, not the first time the SLDF was prone to approving questionable designs... nor the worst ... *glares at Charger 1A1*

Minor quibble: Star League Hoplites did not carry LB-Xes. They all had regular ACs, aside from the rare PPC models. :)

[glitterboy2098]

Minor quibble: Star League Hoplites did not carry LB-Xes. They all had regular ACs, aside from the rare PPC models. :)

the clan era 4D models do, and they're the more commonly used one. but yes, the SLDF -4C model came off the production lines 17 years before the LBX did.

[Hellraiser]

One fix for the Champion might also be Endo Steel combined with the Ferro. 

The Royal goes that route IIRC.

A theoretical Champion-1N3 using Endo but keeping the 1N2 DHS/LBX would have 3 tons to play with.
2 for Armor & 1 to upgrade the SL to SPL or ML would be solid options.
Maybe 1.5 Armor & slap RT CASE in there w/ moved SRM ammo.

Space might be iffy, IDK for sure.

[SteelRaven]

Minor quibble: Star League Hoplites did not carry LB-Xes. They all had regular ACs, aside from the rare PPC models. :)

My mistake, thanks for the correction. I just flipped to the fist Hoplite reference I had and should have cross reference.

[gyedid]

the clan era 4D models do, and they're the more commonly used one. but yes, the SLDF -4C model came off the production lines 17 years before the LBX did.

If by "Clan era" you mean "post-4th Succession War", then that's fine.  The Hoplite -4D and -C were both Wolf's Dragoons refits made after the 4th SW and Battle of Luthien, respectively.  Otherwise the Clans don't seem to have come up with a post-Exile refit other than the -4Bb and -4Cb, which were still all Star League tech.  The fact that they did create a Clan-spec refit of the Champion during the Golden Century would seem to indicate that they valued the Champion more than they did the Hoplite.

cheers,

Gabe

[Weirdo]

Not surprising, really. It's a fast machine that rewards aggressive tactics and quick kills, but also isn't really built for melee combat. Honestly, it's right up several Clans' alley.

[glitterboy2098]

If by "Clan era" you mean "post-4th Succession War", then that's fine.  The Hoplite -4D and -C were both Wolf's Dragoons refits made after the 4th SW and Battle of Luthien, respectively.  Otherwise the Clans don't seem to have come up with a post-Exile refit other than the -4Bb and -4Cb, which were still all Star League tech.  The fact that they did create a Clan-spec refit of the Champion during the Golden Century would seem to indicate that they valued the Champion more than they did the Hoplite.

cheers,

Gabe

the -4D's introdate on the MUL is 3050. the 'clan invasion era' is 3050 to 3061. ergo the -4D is a clan invasion era machine.

[JadeHellbringer]

One fix for the Champion might also be Endo Steel combined with the Ferro.

Being that Bergan seemed to be interested in saving a buck wherever they could (see: SHS), expensive toys like that might HELP, but they're not useful to Bergan's bottom line, and THAT was what the Champion was really supposed to be a support unit for. Any success it had on the SLDF's battlefields was always a secondary bonus. (Ditto, of course, for that pricey XL engine!)

[Starfury]

True. I mean more for later eras rather then using an XL to gain more weapon mass at the cost of survivability.

[gyedid]

Not surprising, really. It's a fast machine that rewards aggressive tactics and quick kills, but also isn't really built for melee combat. Honestly, it's right up several Clans' alley.

In other words, the same kind of thinking that produced the Hunchback IIC? (although that does have hands)

cheers,

Gabe

[BrianDavion]

In other words, the same kind of thinking that produced the Hunchback IIC? (although that does have hands)

cheers,

Gabe

hunchback IIC isn't what Id call fast

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

It's cheap, and deliberately designed to be a death trap.

[Weirdo]

In other words, the same kind of thinking that produced the Hunchback IIC? (although that does have hands)

Kinda, but not nearly to the suicidal extreme as the Hunchy. Think "enough to win a single duel and showcase a skilled pilot" instead of "enough to win a single duel and showcase a hero's corpse".

[RifleMech]

I normally like these write ups but this one...I'd agree with it when pushed into general use but the Champion's intended roll isn't to rush in and slug it out. It's intended role are heavy reconnaissance and fast strike missions. In those missions the weaponry and armor makes more sense.

The LBX has twice the range of the ML and SRMs. That keeps recon hunters at a respectable distance. It also allows the Champion to open up and exploit holes in its enemies when it does rush forward to strike it's enemies. The other weapons aren't there so the Champion can slug it out with the enemy but to finish off enemies that are already damaged. And when used like this the 8 tons of FF Armor isn't bad.  Yes, there's better configurations but for these missions I think it works. Its when pushed into other roles that the weaponry and lighter armor become more of an issue. But it still works if it hangs back a little to support the rest of it's lance before charging in.

I do agree that the Champion looks like it should have jump jets. Swapping the LBX for a PPC or ER PPC, does leave room for 4 jump jets and an additional ton of armor. DHS would take care of the heat build up.

I think the oddest thing about the Champion is that it's competitor was the GRF-3N, which isn't introduced for another 491 years. 

A Champion with a Partial Wing would make a more functional jumping variant than the Champion LAM. I still love the Champion LAM though. I'd swap its weapons for Clan tech and install a ILL or ERLL for a long range punch in keeping with the original Champion though.

[Weirdo]

I'd agree with it when pushed into general use but the Champion's intended roll isn't to rush in and slug it out. It's intended role are heavy reconnaissance and fast strike missions. In those missions the weaponry and armor makes more sense.

I rather like this. Use the Champion to lead ground-bound recon and strike formations the same way the Wolverine is meant to lead jumping ones.

The cannon also makes more sense in this role, since such units are highly likely to run into vehicular opposition in the form of pickets and rear-area defenders.

[RifleMech]

I rather like this. Use the Champion to lead ground-bound recon and strike formations the same way the Wolverine is meant to lead jumping ones.

The cannon also makes more sense in this role, since such units are highly likely to run into vehicular opposition in the form of pickets and rear-area defenders.

 
Leading, supporting or both.

Yep. Or other scouts, which tend to have less armor. If I were in a Bug Mech, I wouldn't want to run into one.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

If you're in a bug mech, is there anything that you want to run into?

[SteelRaven]

If you're in a bug mech, is there anything that you want to run into?

A squad of infantry who didn't notice a 20-30 ton mech running around the corner...