Steel Wolves - How do they play?

[Southern Coyote]

It's been a while since I played MW:DA/AoD.  I never played the Steel Wolves back then.  But since my recent faction change and the fact that a store in my area has both plenty of minis and players, I have reconsidered picking MW back up and building a Steel Wolf army.

So, how does the faction play overall? And what minis should I look for?

Thanks in advance!

[Deadborder]

The Steel Wolves use what are coloquially known as "berserker" dials; they actually increase in value for the first few clicks, hit a "sweet spot" for several and then fall off as they go. Wheather this is a good thing or if it actually works is very much a YMMV thing.

[elite130]

Steel Wolves are one of the most difficult factions to play.

You must know every dial by hart, then again you should know all dials by hart ;-)

They also have the longer lifed dials in the game. Also they are masters at range and that can be used ruthlessly.

Just have fun with it.

Kind Regards
Elite130

[wantec]

They're definitely tougher to play well. Like Deadborder said, it takes some damage to get them to their best spot on the dial, but it's usually worth it. Some of my favorite units are the Mortar Squads, simply the most accurate arty infantry in the game. If you put the arty marker under the center dot of your target enemy unit, on your best click on the dial you only need to roll a 5 or better on 3d6 to hit the target for 2 damage. Not to mention, with a 22" range, they're some of the longest ranged arty infantry in the game.

Here's a list of the SW units that I think are most useful:
Mechs:
* Thunder Fox (park it in hindering terrain for a total +4 defensive modifier)
* Blade (fast, good combos without gear, easy to prime)
* Geoff Bekker - Kodiak (just a beast, can use streaks to get to prime)
* Seka Ward - Mad Cat II (tough, high attack, can use command to prime)
* Inova Wolf - Mad Cat II (heavy hitting)
* Jeni Wolf - Sun Cobra (cheap heavy hitter, electronic countermeasures work well in urban terrain)
* Cougar (cheap way to get heavy streaks damage out there with IT)
* Arbalest (same as Cougar, but cheaper and minus the IT, but adds electronic countermeasures)
* Shin Wolf - Uller (pre-AOD it's a cheap way to get 4 armor piercing out there, but defense doesn't stand up so well anymore)
* ConstructionMech Mk II (can close combat for 4 damage, has hand-to-hand attack, cheap)
* Yulri Wolf - Blackhawk (16" used to be tied for longest sniper in the game, but still good with 3 armor piercing)
* Sadia Wolf - Catapult (16" range, highest natural attack, 12, kinda wonky dial but she gains alpha strike near the end for some last hurrah high damage attacks)
* Kriya Wolf - Tundra Wolf (good combo of range, high damage, jump jets, armor, and single-use equipment to help you prime, probably the best SW mech to learn on)
* ForestryMech MOD (long range ballistic, armor piercing, 4 damage, camo, decent defense and attack, best to park it in the edge of hindering and fire out)

Vehicles:
* Scimitar Mk II (fast speed, infiltrate primes it, evade, 360° front arc <--big deal for vehicles to have, best used for VC3 and harassing)
* SM1 Tank Destroyer (high armor piercing damage, cheap, good speed, just remember name & don't chase mechs except in attack formations)
* Demon Medium Tank (infiltrate to prime, decent speed, 360° arc, cheap, long life, good for VC3)
* JES II Missile Carrier (long range, big damage streaks, long dial, good defense, but slow, best used defensively)
* Behemoth II Tank (the early front-line tank, long life, camo, tracked, armor, armor piercing, high damage, 360° arc)
* Lisabet Wolf - Scimitar Mk II (same as Scimitar Mk II, but little bit longer life, plus 2 clicks of single-use repair)
* Maxim Mk II (cheap 3-cap hover transport, med speed, longer dial)
* JES III Missile Carrier (little brother version of JES II, same range, less damage, cheaper, good as escorts & formation members to a JES II)
* JI100 Recovery Vehicle (hearty repair vehicle, actually does damage and can defend itself some, very cheap)
* Mikos Wolf - Maxim Mk II (better Maxim)
* Padilla Arty Tank (armor piercing, pretty accurate, good range, 2 targets)
* J-37 Ordinance Transport (best combo of repair, 3-cap transport, infiltrate to prime, but has low defense)
* Po II Heavy Tank (long range, armor piercing, 360° front arc, cheap, tracked, works well in groups)
* MHI Crane Heavy Transport (2-cap, fast, good for dropping BA)
* Arrow IV Arty Tank (2 targets, very accurate, 2 damage, easy to prime, good range, tracked)
* JI2A1 Attack APC (med speed, hover, repair, 1-cap, 360° arc)
* DI Morgan Assault Tank (infiltrate, tracked, IT, evade, heavy armor, 360° arc, shorter range though)
* MHI Hawk Moth (good speed, armor piercing, easy to prime, good range and attack)

Infantry:
*Standard Foot (cheap Bypass, but only useful if you plan on capturing an enemy and then taking it over)
* Clan Battle Armor, aka CBA (fast, good range, energy attack, jump jets, cheap)
* Tora's Unruly Mob (great as point filler, hard to prime, long life, cheap)
* Tora's Zephyr (very fast, hover, evade, armor piercing once primed, good range, cheap)
* Tora's Claw (armor piercing, easy to prime, long range, jump jets, fast, long life)
* Fenrir BA (good range, armor piercing, 270° arc, cheap, fast)
* Trike Squad (infiltrate, easy to prime, armor piercing, evade, short life, cheap, IT, good range)
* SRM Launcher (not SRM Battery)(armor piercing, camo, IT, good range, 360° arc, very slow, needs transport or defensive use, cheap)
* Minigun Cycle (cheap, fast, useful in packs for VC3, short life, good range, anti-personnel)
* Mortar Squad (see up top)
* PAL Suit (evade, armor piercing, reactive armor, good range)
* Undine BA (long range, aquatic, armor piercing)


Then there's also the fact that the Steel Wolves were assumed to be absorbed/allied with Clan Wolf, so Clan Wolf and Steel Wolves units can be used interchangeably in formations and armies. So I'll go and add those as well
Mechs:
* Thor (extra long range, armor piercing, high attack, jump jets)
* Griffin (extra long range high damage energy damage, jump jets, steady dial)
* Vulture Mk IV (easy to prime, long range energy and ballistic, armor piercing high damage)
* Mad Cat Mk IV (PPC capacitor, long range energy, 360° arc)
* Marauder IIC (long range energy, extra long range ballistic, high defense, jump jets, armor piercing, expensive)
* Wulfen "Gray Hunter" (fast, easy to prime, infiltrate, evade, anti-personnel)
* Warwolf "Reaver" (armor piercing, long and extra long ballistic, jump jets, advanced AMS, TSM for speed)
* Wulfen "Marrow" (fast, decoy, evade, agility, tough to prime, extra long ballistic)
* Crimson Hawk "Forgiven" (jump jets, heavy armor, high damage energy, agility, hand to hand weapon)
* Violator " Cleaver" (cheap, armor piercing, easy to prime, rapid strike, TSM on speed and melee weapon)
* Black Knight "Hot Seat" (long range, moderate damage, pulse, long life)
* Warwolf "Fell" (extra long ballistic, homing beacon, jump jets, reactive armor then adv AMS, TSM for speed)
* Warwolf "Vindicated" (extra long ballistic, jump jets, Art IV, reactive armor then adv AMS, TSM for speed) (note: this was a prize piece that wasn't officially released, but copies got out anyways, hard to find)
* Griffin "Stiletto" (non-berserker dial, armor piercing, jump jets, high damage, good defense)
* Warwolf "Slayer" (extra long ballistic with streaks, higher damage shorter weapon, reactive armor then adv AMS, TSM for speed)

[Southern Coyote]

Thanks folks!

[Mecha82]

When using Steel Wolves, Active Volcano Planetary Condition is your friend. That extra damage helps getting to sweet spot.

[Boldrick]

You missed out 'Alpha' Mangonel ???
Wow, mech that can deliver 5 AP on 16 inch, for 185 points and one of the best heat dial in the game.
Well, at least in my book, this is a must unit for any Steel Wolf player and can stand up to much
newer mech. Try paring it with Kodiak or CW Thor... as a sniper, and if you feel some evilness slap
on SW/SH SA- now even Cats are going to run....

[wantec]

You missed out 'Alpha' Mangonel ???
Wow, mech that can deliver 5 AP on 16 inch, for 185 points and one of the best heat dial in the game.
Well, at least in my book, this is a must unit for any Steel Wolf player and can stand up to much
newer mech. Try paring it with Kodiak or CW Thor... as a sniper, and if you feel some evilness slap
on SW/SH SA- now even Cats are going to run....

No, I remembered it. Yes it's got good speed, great damage, it's easy to prime, and a good attack value, but it's defense is lacking. It's defense only gets as high as 20, which is low for a Medium or Light mech, much less a Heavy. That practically necessitates using a +2 defense pilot (of which there are only 3 available) and using a gear like Decoy or Enhanced Targeting Range. The problem is that the low defense severely limits your options to play this mech, and in my experience, it usually doesn't perform to expectations.

[Boldrick]

Play it with her pilot, ability makes charge a lesser option for opponent, and IT or Streak.
Her long reach, good speed and heat dial will make up for defense.
With exception of Geoff Bekker, Steel Wolfs or Clan doesnt have good defense and
since they are berserkers,defense is secondary to damage and attack, range.
I did lost her few times, but never the battle...
Clan Wolf are just timid version of Steel Wolfs, stability of attack makes them easy to
play, priming just a click away.
Priming monsters like Sadia, Bekker, well its not easy at all, heat dials are not that forgiving
and opponent has them on primary attack list. Mortars or Arrow helps a bunch, but it
not tactic i like to use.

[Deadborder]

One other thing that helps; many SW units start with one-use equipment that will "nudge" them towards their sweet spot. Use it when you have it.

[radiationexposed]

I just wanted to throw Kal Raddick into the Fray!   The only "Wolf" without a Beserker dial...  Good mech by Dark Age standards. A treasure to any collection(especially for as much as it will cost you . ) 

[GhostCat]

I just wanted to throw Kal Raddick into the Fray!   The only "Wolf" without a Beserker dial...  Good mech by Dark Age standards. A treasure to any collection(especially for as much as it will cost you . )

Raddick was always a trophy mech.  As a treasure, the only way to realize it's value was to sell it on eBay.  I actually preferred the BR Zeus, Stefani Ehli, during the event it was offered as a Prize.  As a group we then awarded the Madcat to the only player that brought Steel Wolves to the Event for Fellowship. 

Good Times.

GC

[wantec]

I just wanted to throw Kal Raddick into the Fray!   The only "Wolf" without a Beserker dial...  Good mech by Dark Age standards. A treasure to any collection(especially for as much as it will cost you . )

Yep, Kal Raddick, Vengeance (Phelan Kell's Solitaire), and Stiletto (Katherine Wolf's Griffin) are the only Wolf mechs without beserker dials.

[PeripheryPirate]

Poor Kal Radick, always getting his bloodname misspelled.

[Pa Weasley]

Ah, Tora's Zephyr. The classic Steel Wolf, "We really need a cup of coffee before we get going" unit with zero starting attack and damage. Fantastic unit though. One of my favorite Steel Wolf pieces.

[elite130]

No, I remembered it. Yes it's got good speed, great damage, it's easy to prime, and a good attack value, but it's defense is lacking. It's defense only gets as high as 20, which is low for a Medium or Light mech, much less a Heavy. That practically necessitates using a +2 defense pilot (of which there are only 3 available) and using a gear like Decoy or Enhanced Targeting Range. The problem is that the low defense severely limits your options to play this mech, and in my experience, it usually doesn't perform to expectations.

Alpha no good..... tssskk It gave me the European Championship. I think of all SW pieces it is the best. But then what do I Know....

In my hands it didnt get hit, Alpha hit others because of it's range and heat dial.

I only needed a +2 attack pilot never the defense ant as always Hvy IT.

I think you seriously underestimate this piece.

Regards
Elite130

[wantec]

Alpha no good..... tssskk It gave me the European Championship. I think of all SW pieces it is the best. But then what do I Know....

In my hands it didnt get hit, Alpha hit others because of it's range and heat dial.

I only needed a +2 attack pilot never the defense ant as always Hvy IT.

I think you seriously underestimate this piece.

Regards
Elite130

I think you seriously overestimate this piece. Yes it can dish out the damage, but it can't survive return attacks with such a low defense. It may have worked well for you, but even if I was able to use the range to land a first shot, it was usually up against someone that had a couple of light mechs with 11 or 12 pilots and IT, meaning it had a 50/50 shot or better to hit me back in return fire.

Explain to me how you would defeat this army:
3x Liao Anubis - 110 pts
3x Liao Sang-Wei - 13 pts
3x Light IT - 23 pts
2x Liao Arrow IV Arty Tank - 47 pts
1x Liao DI AA Arty - 32 pts
3x Liao Scout ATV - 12 pts
total: 600 points

That, or something very close to that is what I faced often. So now you're facing off against an opponent with 3 light mechs all with a 24 defense versus ranged combat. Sometimes he'd even switch out the IT for Decoy on those light mechs for even more fun.

[GhostCat]

For those that wonder about wantec's Liao army, the ATVs are 12 points each, so the total is correct and the missing points are just a simple math error.

I've seen this version myself more than a few times, it kind of counts on finding an opposing army that is slow and disorganized.  Like a Steiner assault mech that can't push it's Heat Dial.  As for hitting a 24 defense, there are lots of ways to do that without letting the Anubis to get close enough to shoot back.  That is something I'm sure elite130 is good at. 

As an army list, it's great for playing tag, but once the hitting starts, it falls to pieces quickly.  There is no mention of the environment army would prefer to be in, though I can imagine there'd be a lot of Blocking Terrain to reduce the advantage long range units might have.  Planetary Conditions are also fairly predictable including Horrible Day, Heavy Fog, and other similar effects. 

Of course, the sort of atmosphere that this army existed in is an extremely competitive one.  It's also one of the more extreme examples of the type that only had to survive an hour of battle.  It actually has to develope tactical tricks, initiative, and other good gaming skills if it intends to win those battles.  It's not really one that can win by brute force and attrition.

GC

[wantec]

For those that wonder about wantec's Liao army, the ATVs are 12 points each, so the total is correct and the missing points are just a simple math error.

Math error ??? For the units listed, I just put the point cost for 1 of that figure/card, not the point totals for all of them.

I've seen this version myself more than a few times, it kind of counts on finding an opposing army that is slow and disorganized.  Like a Steiner assault mech that can't push it's Heat Dial.  As for hitting a 24 defense, there are lots of ways to do that without letting the Anubis to get close enough to shoot back.  That is something I'm sure elite130 is good at. 

As an army list, it's great for playing tag, but once the hitting starts, it falls to pieces quickly.  There is no mention of the environment army would prefer to be in, though I can imagine there'd be a lot of Blocking Terrain to reduce the advantage long range units might have.  Planetary Conditions are also fairly predictable including Horrible Day, Heavy Fog, and other similar effects. 

Of course, the sort of atmosphere that this army existed in is an extremely competitive one.  It's also one of the more extreme examples of the type that only had to survive an hour of battle.  It actually has to develope tactical tricks, initiative, and other good gaming skills if it intends to win those battles.  It's not really one that can win by brute force and attrition.

GC

Actually that army works well against most any type of army (there's 4 of us on these boards and another 3 or so that have tried most every variation of army to beat this). Unless you build an army specifically to counter this (and likely get your backside handed to you in every other battle) you're gonna have a tough time.

[GhostCat]

Math error For the units listed, I just put the point cost for 1 of that figure/card, not the point totals for all of them.

Okay yeah, I somehow failed to notice that even though I read the other items properly.  Might be because I remembered the ATVs had dials that misprinted the point cost.

Building just to counter this army does seem counter-productive in a tournament setting.  It would be better to know ways of winning that do not specificly require the complete destruction of all three light mechs.  The Artillery is especially vulnerable to close combat attacks.  ATVs die quickly, and VC3 might prove iffy for both sides. 

There are other factions with similar armies and units to fear.  Wolf Hunter Mjolner equipped with Double Rate and deployed three or four at a time can be exciting.  House Davion Havoc With Pulse gear or IT can be fun too.  And of course my personal favorite is the CNC TSEMP Phoenix Hawk which kind of makes me wonder why the Vixen is worth so much more on ebay.

The Capellan Anubis is just one army of that type, and they all demand a little more skill than the simple Hack and Smash head butting.  On both sides of the table.

GC

[elite130]

Explain to me how you would defeat this army:
3x Liao Anubis - 110 pts
3x Liao Sang-Wei - 13 pts
3x Light IT - 23 pts
2x Liao Arrow IV Arty Tank - 47 pts
1x Liao DI AA Arty - 32 pts
3x Liao Scout ATV - 12 pts
total: 600 points

That, or something very close to that is what I faced often. So now you're facing off against an opponent with 3 light mechs all with a 24 defense versus ranged combat. Sometimes he'd even switch out the IT for Decoy on those light mechs for even more fun.

This is an army I used many a time

BR Sprint 34
>WH TGR 26
BR Sprint 34
>WH TGR 26
Command peasant 12
DF Garrot 33
>DF Schmidt 94
Alpha 185
Kerenky 44
IT 44
Liao atv 3x 36
HS atv 4x 32

I fought it all, consider me extremely experienced.

All I need is 1 good hit on a Anubis 5 damage and it is crippled and I can create 14 IT which will hit your 22 Evade 82 % of the time, without it I still have 48 %. I am extremly confident your arty can be attack at will by my sprints and based by my ATV's and I stil will have left over ATV's to base your Mechs. As soon as I destroy 1 Mech and your arty I have won there is no way you can then score enough points even if you kill my manage kill my Alpha.

The trick with alpha is you have such insane range you dont need to get hit unless you allow it. Specilally with its heat dial.

Put Camo on it and yes I would need to go for the 14 IT shot but even then I am pretty sure I will hit one use my tank drop to kill you arty and presto I am done.

I wont bore you what it or is not possible with my Army but this is a decent one I have better ones.

I do notice your playing Faction Pure I can no doubt come up with something faction pure that can beat that army as well, But I doubt I would play SW as a faction, I probaly would bring 3 BR Solis and the BR FP. Pretty sure it can beat that Liao army whatever the support I add to it.

Kind regards
E130

[Men Shen]

I used to play Steel Wolves a lot back in the pre AOD days. I got out of the game when set retirement came about. I usually tried to position my forces in such a way that the other player would damage my forces into there sweet spot. I loved using Shin Wolf and then later Jenni Wolf. The madcat III was a favorite as well, but like I said this was pre AOD.

[Prince of Darkness]

This is an army I used many a time

BR Sprint 34
>WH TGR 26
BR Sprint 34
>WH TGR 26
Command peasant 12
DF Garrot 33
>DF Schmidt 94
Alpha 185
Kerenky 44
IT 44
Liao atv 3x 36
HS atv 4x 32

I fought it all, consider me extremely experienced.

Um, if I'm reading this correctly, you're using Banson's Raiders Sprints, Dragon's Fury Di Schmitts and Garrots, the Steel Wolf Alpha, 3 Liao ATV's and 4 House Steiner ATV's.

How would you EVER be able to use this army... anywhere?

[PeripheryPirate]

How would you EVER be able to use this army... anywhere?

Easy. Put it on the table and play.

MW was never restricted by faction. There are no rules that force faction purity. Some players would play faction pure, but it was always a personal choice, one seldom (if ever) required by actual Organized Play events.

[DieRache]

Just my 2 cents. I have always felt it takes a stronger player to play faction pure. Reason being that any one can take the best units from a bunch of factions and make a killer army, a stronger player can take units, good and bad, from one faction and make a killer army. Basicly it takes a better player to make a winning army with units from a small pool. Anyone can take units from a larger pool and make something winnable. I have always played faction pure and have lost very few times and that is against some of the best players in the game. I my area ppl around me always start off playing rainbow armies and do well but when I have been able to teach someone to play faction pure they have went on to be so of the strongest players there are.

 That being said. The Wolf factions are the hardest to play if you ask me. And Alpha is just the top dog of those factions. I won so many games with her that I had people ask me not to play her anymore so that they would stand a chance. So then I just started using the CW Thor, NASTY little thing. Team that up with Grey hunter and Gwin with IT, an Arrow 4, SW foresty Mod B and ou have a force that when played right can take anything down. Just my 2 cents.
 

[GhostCat]

I have seen elite130's Sprint TGR battle group a few times in the past.  I've seen a few variations on it too.  One of the key factors is that it has several units that allow command rolls to give extra orders per turn.  It does have two formations of ATVs, but they seem fairly expendable, though I'm sure they serve well as basers, giving the tank drop and big mech the time they need to hit their targets.

Even though the ATVs are there, this army does not really depend on range or movement formations, which is about the only advantage a "faction pure" would have, and that is also the Factions' weakness too.  Range formations take time to set up, and usually include one big gun and a bunch of little helpers.  Cripple the big gun, and the formation is toast.

 Even when an army is Faction Pure, there is nothing that says they will gain any benefit from it.  Like House Davion can deploy four light Havok mechs and an Angerona BA infantry for 600 points with no Faction Pride Card or special abilities.  But, it looks good, ya know? 

GC

[PeripheryPirate]

Just my 2 cents. I have always felt it takes a stronger player to play faction pure.

The strongest players will do well whether they're playing faction pure or not.

That said, nobody out to win the world championships would go out of their way to build an army with subpar units just to stay faction pure (if they do, they are intentionally handicapping themselves, so I would call their desire to win into question; more likely, they would hope to win, but not at the expense of being "cheesy"). It all depends on what your goal is. If your goal is to make a nice fluffy army for the scenario at hand, then faction pure rocks for that sort of thing. If you're trying to put together the best possible armies in the world, usually they will not be faction pure.

Naturally, army building is but one facet of the game. The other two are the players' skill levels and the luck of the dice.

[DieRache]

The strongest players will do well whether they're playing faction pure or not.

That said, nobody out to win the world championships would go out of their way to build an army with subpar units just to stay faction pure (if they do, they are intentionally handicapping themselves, so I would call their desire to win into question; more likely, they would hope to win, but not at the expense of being "cheesy"). It all depends on what your goal is. If your goal is to make a nice fluffy army for the scenario at hand, then faction pure rocks for that sort of thing. If you're trying to put together the best possible armies in the world, usually they will not be faction pure.

Naturally, army building is but one facet of the game. The other two are the players' skill levels and the luck of the dice.

 I would stand to disagree that some one who goes in faction pure is limiting themselves or setting themselves up to fail. Maybe that person feels that if they go in faction pure and beats a rainbow cheese army that that is a bigger win than just rainbowing it and winning. I have more respect for a player that can do more with less than a person who takes the best units from everything and wins. I think I would stand a hell of a chance against anyone Using my CW/SW units and winning, more than you might think. Hell I have had some of the best players face me and bring rainbow and my wolves have brought them down.
 

[elite130]

HMhhhh

Sorry my army distracted of the main topic, however to me as  a player there are some issues with restricted (faction pure) vs unrestricted (everything goes).

1) the factions where never balanced.
2) The frigging points where never balanced.

As such I prefer unrestricted as it is in my opinion fairer to play then restricted where some factions are totaly unbalanced.

If you analyze every piece (as I have done) and you know every strong point a unit have and define different roles and seek any and all combinations that work then you can built armies with a purpose and understand anything you built. Most players have no clue, that 90% of the units that where brought out by wizkids where totaly crap. And not worth the points to play them.

Most people know the BR Sprint now compare it to the other Sprints. And explain to me how you calculate the point cost......

I also blame wizkids for undermining their own game by not understanding the need for game balance. As most players wanted to play faction pure. In order to allow that you must have game balance.

As for the comments you are a better player if you restrict yourself to faction pure armies well that is just plain foolish.

In the heyday of MW I was a pretty good competitor and I won about 20 % of my collection in tournaments up and including the undead lance. I was a well known MW player and competitor from the period of 300, 450 and 600 with the AoD rule set. I can go on on my accomplishments but that is old and gone glory.

I agree with PeripheryPirate wholeheartedly as such I am pretty sure to make the following statements  if there was a Worlds or whatever organized play even Restricted I would end up in the top 10. That is based on my skills in army building and army playing.

Regards
Elite130

[DieRache]

HMhhhh

Sorry my army distracted of the main topic, however to me as  a player there are some issues with restricted (faction pure) vs unrestricted (everything goes).

1) the factions where never balanced.
2) The frigging points where never balanced.

As such I prefer unrestricted as it is in my opinion fairer to play then restricted where some factions are totaly unbalanced.

If you analyze every piece (as I have done) and you know every strong point a unit have and define different roles and seek any and all combinations that work then you can built armies with a purpose and understand anything you built. Most players have no clue, that 90% of the units that where brought out by wizkids where totaly crap. And not worth the points to play them.

Most people know the BR Sprint now compare it to the other Sprints. And explain to me how you calculate the point cost......

I also blame wizkids for undermining their own game by not understanding the need for game balance. As most players wanted to play faction pure. In order to allow that you must have game balance.

As for the comments you are a better player if you restrict yourself to faction pure armies well that is just plain foolish.

In the heyday of MW I was a pretty good competitor and I won about 20 % of my collection in tournaments up and including the undead lance. I was a well known MW player and competitor from the period of 300, 450 and 600 with the AoD rule set. I can go on on my accomplishments but that is old and gone glory.

I agree with PeripheryPirate wholeheartedly as such I am pretty sure to make the following statements  if there was a Worlds or whatever organized play even Restricted I would end up in the top 10. That is based on my skills in army building and army playing.

Regards
Elite130

 Elite maybe you just put it a way I understood better what he was saying. Because I do agree with what you are saying. And maybe I was misunderstood as to what I was saying. I was saying it takes a very strong player to go faction pure and win alot. I always played faction pure no matter what. That is just my play style. And I too won more than my fair share. Just because I could never afford to go to worlds and play to prove myself at that level I think takes nothing away from me.  Playing faction is just another way to play the game. No all factions were not equal. But lets ask our selves "why do you pick the best untis from all the factions" Because it made it easier to win right. Be honest. Bigger challenge to go with one faction and use its great, good and subpar units and win. I did not always ply just to win. I played for the fun of it. Yes WK did alot to kill the game. But in my mind the metagamer, win at all cost, crush everyone even the guy who was not that good, take the fun out of the game ppl are what really killed this game. Think about it. Are you going to keep doing something that you never win at or have fun doing. I use this as an example, if you always got crushed by the local great fighter at the gym in boxing would you continue to box?

[PeripheryPirate]

You are really comparing apples to oranges here. Building a high-level competitive army takes a certain skill; you need to have a keen eye for what works, what doesn't, what's most efficient, and how it will all groove together. Players who build the top-tier armies would essentially be disrespecting their opponents in a high-level competition if they didn't try their best to win, and part of that includes building the best army they can build.

Playing any particular army competitively at all takes a completely different skill; you have to consider various tactical options, anticipate your opponent, make the best use of your available orders, and plan for the turns ahead based on the various outcomes of the current turn or two. Arguing that one should handicap one's army building for a "greater challenge" is like saying "build the best army, but because we know you're good, you only get half the orders your opponent does." After all, that would be a greater challenge, yes?

In short, army building and army playing are two very separate but equally important skills to have.

Lastly, I would avoid implying that playing to win is mutually exclusive with playing for the fun of it. To several players, they are one in the same, and such players are not wrong just because they play differently.

[elite130]

Elite maybe you just put it a way I understood better what he was saying. Because I do agree with what you are saying. And maybe I was misunderstood as to what I was saying. I was saying it takes a very strong player to go faction pure and win alot. I always played faction pure no matter what. That is just my play style. And I too won more than my fair share. Just because I could never afford to go to worlds and play to prove myself at that level I think takes nothing away from me.  Playing faction is just another way to play the game. No all factions were not equal. But lets ask our selves "why do you pick the best untis from all the factions" Because it made it easier to win right. Be honest. Bigger challenge to go with one faction and use its great, good and subpar units and win. I did not always ply just to win. I played for the fun of it. Yes WK did alot to kill the game. But in my mind the metagamer, win at all cost, crush everyone even the guy who was not that good, take the fun out of the game ppl are what really killed this game. Think about it. Are you going to keep doing something that you never win at or have fun doing. I use this as an example, if you always got crushed by the local great fighter at the gym in boxing would you continue to box?

Dear DieRache,

You are shaped by the environment you play in. If all you play is restricted I dare you to say you might find switching to unrestricted a big challenge. But you claim that playing competitive is what killed the game. I disagree i simply think that WK mismanaged the game on so many levels it isnt funny. Great game company Bad Business company the curse of our hobby i fear. I wont go into that.

Honestly first time I went to Worlds it was paid for by wizkids, I met all these great players and had the biggest and best war gaming experience in my life also I believed that the level of play outside of my little country would be a lot higher usually in any sports, the country that have the most competitors win the big competitions.

So I found out that I was one of the better competitors that only spurred me on. Even when I had to pay for it myself as WK dropped al funding I went 3x more times. The main reason was I loved playing vs the best players in the world. I played for winning on that 1 point as it was very close matches that stayed with me the most. I dont care about winning easy. Honestly if you ever met me or played me you would know this.

I disagree that it is a bigger challenge to stay faction pure, because it limits your playing style and it forces me to analyze and play the best playable factions only. Specialy and this where I belief WK screwed up if you have pieces like SAD that can be recruited to any faction. It would be bad enough if only 1 faction could use the combo but now suddely all factions have to solve the same problems where many a faction did not have any piece that could solve this problem.

I say that in unrestricted where everyone can use multiple solutions to tactical problems is more fair then an environment where some factions lose beforehand as they simply dont have a tactical solution within their ranks.

If WK did it's job and designed its game with gamebalance in mind it might be a different story. But as I said WK screwed the pooch here, in case you think I am too harsh they did the same with Mageknight and went bust while owning a license like heroclix which in my mind is a license to print money......

Yes I am a metagamer, yes I play to win, yes I am pretty good at it. But I am never ashamed of it. i play for the challenge vs other great players. I dont play Noobs, I warn noobs to only start playing me when they feel they got some experience under their belt. At one time I literly only looked forwards towards European Championships or World Championships and the latter I was more hungry for as I came close but never won it. Beside that I helped so many people with their armies up and including World Champions I explained people the mechanics of the game, the metagame and how to become a better player.

You can curse me or praise me but every game I give you my best game as possible. I try to make sure luck is limited as a factor and to maximize skill. I met great many guys who I respect and who respect me for what I did in this game and I was pretty unrelenting in my criticism towards Wk for their business practices. Bottomline is yeah I played for the fun of it, I just need a better match up to get it.

Just some thought of an old MechWarrior
Elite130

 

[GhostCat]

Bottomline is yeah I played for the fun of it, I just need a better match up to get it.

Just some thought of an old MechWarrior
Elite130

If it wasn't fun, none of us would have bothered with it for very long.  Playing to win is also important, but being crushed by the "king of the hill" every week can be pretty demoralizing.  This is why I spend most of my time teaching others how to play better, because the view from the top of the hill can be pretty depressing, too.

Just as in more traditional games, like Chess, the better a player gets, the fewer opponents he's going to find that can match his level.  After a while, it just becomes not fun to play if there is no challenge of equal strength.  This is more than just what kind of army, Faction Pure or Otherwise.  It's about players with skill and experience and not just the fattest collection.

I like to play to win, but I also want everyone to have fun, too.  It hasn't happened in a long while, but I get a bit of satisfaction too, when a player that has a long history losing every game suddenly scores his first real victory against me. 

GC

[DieRache]

  I am not flaming anyone for their play style please dont take it that way. I am not saying that everyone should play faction pure. I am saying I myself like to play faction pure. And do so even when I dont have to. I never got on anyone for not doing so. I also play to win but I dont think you all understand what I meant by crushing the little guy. Well GhostCat I think does. By the little guy I mean the noob or someone that does not have the skill or exp that I do. I also take my time to teach and help those just starting.  Everyone has their own play style some faction pure others not. I just like to play that way. And by Meta gamer helping kill the game I mean those that sought out every loop hole in the rules, that were rule lawyers,  that made it unfun for alot of ppl.  Maybe you never ran into players like that but I have and it sucked to play them. The type of person that pulled out a caliper just to make sure you measured perfectly.  I am by no means meaning the player who used a rainbow army. Hell most of the time I loved playing those palyers that used the best units from every faction it made when I beat them that much sweeter. And there is nothing wrong with that play style as we all have our own. Sorry if my saying i enjoy the challenge of playing faction pure upsets you but that is how I play.

[JWard]

Kind of surprised the LRM battery was not mentioned i always had great luck with them 14' range infiltrate and streak for 2 and that the Wolf Hunters pieces were not mentioned since their dials are fashioned after the Steel Wolf dials

[GhostCat]

Kind of surprised the LRM battery was not mentioned i always had great luck with them 14' range infiltrate and streak for 2 and that the Wolf Hunters pieces were not mentioned since their dials are fashioned after the Steel Wolf dials

That sounds like you were very lucky, then.  The LRM Battery is vulnerable to Planetary Conditions that damage infantry not labeled as Battle Armor.  High damage Antipersonel weapons would destroy whole formations with a single attack on an Assault Order.  Without a transport unit to relocate them, they might never get a chance to participate in a battle that never comes close to them. 

Wolf Hunters have not been mentioned in this thread because Wizkids specificly excluded them from the Clan Wolf/Steel Wolf House Alliance.  Unofficially, I'm sure most players treat them as a subfaction of the other two, but, they have in game options that the other Wolf factions do not have.  Personally, I think the concept of "mercenary faction" could have been expanded on and added at least two other factions retro-actively.  Bannson's Raiders and (Northwind) Highlanders as merc factions would have thrilled the fan base that already liked those factions. 

Just talking about the whole mercenary package deserves a separate thread of it's own.

DieRache, I don't think anyone is flaming any special play style, we are all veteran players here comfortable with the sort of armies we like to build.  You have to admit WK tried to make everyone happy by introducing Special Alliance cards as well as Faction Prides.  Elite's Six Flags Sprint Army is just one example of a Rainbow army type.  I remember one known as "Midnight Run" that featured a lot of VTOLs from several factions.

I play Faction Pure myself and just naturally build that way.  I don't wonder if Steel Wolf has a better Ordinance Truck than Sword Sworn, I just match it to the faction I'm building with.  I even enjoy making armies that are purely factionless, Mercenaries and Gunslingers that wave no flags for anybody.

GC

[elite130]

And by Meta gamer helping kill the game I mean those that sought out every loop hole in the rules, that were rule lawyers,  that made it unfun for alot of ppl.  Sorry if my saying i enjoy the challenge of playing faction pure upsets you but that is how I play.

Meta gaming did not kill MW, that is something I abhor as a statement. WK killed it. Do you truly belief that I wanted to kill of MW ? I have no problem claiming to be a Meta gamer. I doubt you understand what the concept means truly.

Wiki
Metagame analysis involves framing a problem situation as a strategic game in which participants try to realise their objectives by means of the options available to them. The subsequent meta-analysis of this game gives insight in possible strategies and their outcome.

So analyzing the game pieces in order to have a better understanding of the game makes a cheater or something ? That kind of slurs do upset me.

Your willingness to play faction pure does not upset me. Indeed carry on playing and if our paths cross i will play your army with something faction pure....

Kind regards
E130

[DieRache]

Ok maybe Meta gamer was the wrong term to use. I jsut seen too many rules lawyers turn ppl off from the game. Maybe that is term I should have used. You know you have seen the type of person I am talking about. And your posted Meta gamer example well even I have to admit it fits me as well. When I would play someone who was at my level I too thought long and hard about my armies and tactics, dont think you will find anyone who has played me say different. But when I did know i was playing someone who was not then I backed off the fire a little. I still played to win I just did not make it a crushing defeat. Everyone plays to win you are correct but when playing someone who you have outgunned I feel that you should at least make it fun for them as well and if that means  I let the game go 50 minutes and not just crush him with in 20 then so be it.

 And if every we meet then my Wolves stand ready, and please bring what ever you wish. I will gladly play against any army there is. I am trying to get the game going again in my area. Hell I even gave a huge lot of RoTs to a new player just to get him going.

 And yes WK more damage to the game than anything else. Bad units, leaving factions out, stupid rules that made no sense, rewriting the Battletech history to meet their ends, and most of all dishonesty with the players.

[rjp927]

All this talk about mech is really making me miss game. I wish it kept going and there were people still around to play it with in michigan

[DieRache]

Where at in Michigan are you?

[rjp927]

Kalamazoo area

[Men Shen]

I'v got to agree with DieRache and I'v been on both sides of the coin. I used to make the strongest army using any and as many factions as I wanted and won a lot. After a while I decided to go faction pure and found more of a challenge any one can make an uber army and be very competitive with it, but I feel it takes a stronger player to win with faction pure, but again play any way you want, the games pretty much dead. I'v got a ton of le's sitting in my attic and player certificates to prove my skill and right now they are all collecting dust.

[PeripheryPirate]

any one can make an uber army and be very competitive with it

That is where you are wrong, and that is why attitudes such as this are regarded as pompous. There is no more skill involved with building a faction-pure army than there is with building a rainbow army, just different restrictions. Both methods take army-building skills. Rainbow armies do not magically create themselves, and not everyone can make one that's very competitive.

[rjp927]

Try using steal wolves with Bansons Raiders. The Situational Alliance of "When a friendly unit is given an order, you may repair that unit of 1 damage or you may deal 1 pushing damage to that unit before or after the order is resolved. You may not repair the unit if a black repair marker or the green starting marker shows on its combat dial" is extremely useful.  Gives the wolves a little extra kick

[Mecha82]

Not just that but it also helps BR as they are extremely repairable.

[Men Shen]

That is where you are wrong, and that is why attitudes such as this are regarded as pompous. There is no more skill involved with building a faction-pure army than there is with building a rainbow army, just different restrictions. Both methods take army-building skills. Rainbow armies do not magically create themselves, and not everyone can make one that's very competitive.

Experience tells me that anyone with a good grasp of the rules, units and tactics can cherry pick the most powerful units in the game and make an extremely competitive army and do very good with it. I'm sorry if I sounded pompous to you, that was not my intent. Dudes playing cheese armies are why the game died in my area and why I have boxes of stuff collectiong dust. Call me out if you want, I'm going to go paint some mechs from a game that's still alive.

[GhostCat]

Experience tells me that anyone with a good grasp of the rules, units and tactics can cherry pick the most powerful units in the game and make an extremely competitive army and do very good with it. I'm sorry if I sounded pompous to you, that was not my intent. Dudes playing cheese armies are why the game died in my area and why I have boxes of stuff collectiong dust. Call me out if you want, I'm going to go paint some mechs from a game that's still alive.

Cherry picking power units?  Cheese Armies?  Sounds more like sour grapes to me.

My very first encounter with what became known as Cheese was the Maxim-Schmitt Tank Drop.  Okay, so I wasn't prepared for it and I lost the game rather quickly, but gracefully.  Then, because it did finish fast I asked him to show me how it worked, and it didn't take long to learn how to defeat it.  I never lost to such a simple trick a second time, but that's just part of the game.

To whine about the Cheese and Power Pieces is missing the point when good play with pieces you know can still prevail.  Learn from your opponents, and learn from your mistakes.  Believe me, when your ability improves, so does the Fun for both you and the other players.

GC