Steel Wolves - How do they play?

[PeripheryPirate]

You are really comparing apples to oranges here. Building a high-level competitive army takes a certain skill; you need to have a keen eye for what works, what doesn't, what's most efficient, and how it will all groove together. Players who build the top-tier armies would essentially be disrespecting their opponents in a high-level competition if they didn't try their best to win, and part of that includes building the best army they can build.

Playing any particular army competitively at all takes a completely different skill; you have to consider various tactical options, anticipate your opponent, make the best use of your available orders, and plan for the turns ahead based on the various outcomes of the current turn or two. Arguing that one should handicap one's army building for a "greater challenge" is like saying "build the best army, but because we know you're good, you only get half the orders your opponent does." After all, that would be a greater challenge, yes?

In short, army building and army playing are two very separate but equally important skills to have.

Lastly, I would avoid implying that playing to win is mutually exclusive with playing for the fun of it. To several players, they are one in the same, and such players are not wrong just because they play differently.

[elite130]

Elite maybe you just put it a way I understood better what he was saying. Because I do agree with what you are saying. And maybe I was misunderstood as to what I was saying. I was saying it takes a very strong player to go faction pure and win alot. I always played faction pure no matter what. That is just my play style. And I too won more than my fair share. Just because I could never afford to go to worlds and play to prove myself at that level I think takes nothing away from me.  Playing faction is just another way to play the game. No all factions were not equal. But lets ask our selves "why do you pick the best untis from all the factions" Because it made it easier to win right. Be honest. Bigger challenge to go with one faction and use its great, good and subpar units and win. I did not always ply just to win. I played for the fun of it. Yes WK did alot to kill the game. But in my mind the metagamer, win at all cost, crush everyone even the guy who was not that good, take the fun out of the game ppl are what really killed this game. Think about it. Are you going to keep doing something that you never win at or have fun doing. I use this as an example, if you always got crushed by the local great fighter at the gym in boxing would you continue to box?

Dear DieRache,

You are shaped by the environment you play in. If all you play is restricted I dare you to say you might find switching to unrestricted a big challenge. But you claim that playing competitive is what killed the game. I disagree i simply think that WK mismanaged the game on so many levels it isnt funny. Great game company Bad Business company the curse of our hobby i fear. I wont go into that.

Honestly first time I went to Worlds it was paid for by wizkids, I met all these great players and had the biggest and best war gaming experience in my life also I believed that the level of play outside of my little country would be a lot higher usually in any sports, the country that have the most competitors win the big competitions.

So I found out that I was one of the better competitors that only spurred me on. Even when I had to pay for it myself as WK dropped al funding I went 3x more times. The main reason was I loved playing vs the best players in the world. I played for winning on that 1 point as it was very close matches that stayed with me the most. I dont care about winning easy. Honestly if you ever met me or played me you would know this.

I disagree that it is a bigger challenge to stay faction pure, because it limits your playing style and it forces me to analyze and play the best playable factions only. Specialy and this where I belief WK screwed up if you have pieces like SAD that can be recruited to any faction. It would be bad enough if only 1 faction could use the combo but now suddely all factions have to solve the same problems where many a faction did not have any piece that could solve this problem.

I say that in unrestricted where everyone can use multiple solutions to tactical problems is more fair then an environment where some factions lose beforehand as they simply dont have a tactical solution within their ranks.

If WK did it's job and designed its game with gamebalance in mind it might be a different story. But as I said WK screwed the pooch here, in case you think I am too harsh they did the same with Mageknight and went bust while owning a license like heroclix which in my mind is a license to print money......

Yes I am a metagamer, yes I play to win, yes I am pretty good at it. But I am never ashamed of it. i play for the challenge vs other great players. I dont play Noobs, I warn noobs to only start playing me when they feel they got some experience under their belt. At one time I literly only looked forwards towards European Championships or World Championships and the latter I was more hungry for as I came close but never won it. Beside that I helped so many people with their armies up and including World Champions I explained people the mechanics of the game, the metagame and how to become a better player.

You can curse me or praise me but every game I give you my best game as possible. I try to make sure luck is limited as a factor and to maximize skill. I met great many guys who I respect and who respect me for what I did in this game and I was pretty unrelenting in my criticism towards Wk for their business practices. Bottomline is yeah I played for the fun of it, I just need a better match up to get it.

Just some thought of an old MechWarrior
Elite130

 

[GhostCat]

Bottomline is yeah I played for the fun of it, I just need a better match up to get it.

Just some thought of an old MechWarrior
Elite130

If it wasn't fun, none of us would have bothered with it for very long.  Playing to win is also important, but being crushed by the "king of the hill" every week can be pretty demoralizing.  This is why I spend most of my time teaching others how to play better, because the view from the top of the hill can be pretty depressing, too.

Just as in more traditional games, like Chess, the better a player gets, the fewer opponents he's going to find that can match his level.  After a while, it just becomes not fun to play if there is no challenge of equal strength.  This is more than just what kind of army, Faction Pure or Otherwise.  It's about players with skill and experience and not just the fattest collection.

I like to play to win, but I also want everyone to have fun, too.  It hasn't happened in a long while, but I get a bit of satisfaction too, when a player that has a long history losing every game suddenly scores his first real victory against me. 

GC

[DieRache]

  I am not flaming anyone for their play style please dont take it that way. I am not saying that everyone should play faction pure. I am saying I myself like to play faction pure. And do so even when I dont have to. I never got on anyone for not doing so. I also play to win but I dont think you all understand what I meant by crushing the little guy. Well GhostCat I think does. By the little guy I mean the noob or someone that does not have the skill or exp that I do. I also take my time to teach and help those just starting.  Everyone has their own play style some faction pure others not. I just like to play that way. And by Meta gamer helping kill the game I mean those that sought out every loop hole in the rules, that were rule lawyers,  that made it unfun for alot of ppl.  Maybe you never ran into players like that but I have and it sucked to play them. The type of person that pulled out a caliper just to make sure you measured perfectly.  I am by no means meaning the player who used a rainbow army. Hell most of the time I loved playing those palyers that used the best units from every faction it made when I beat them that much sweeter. And there is nothing wrong with that play style as we all have our own. Sorry if my saying i enjoy the challenge of playing faction pure upsets you but that is how I play.

[JWard]

Kind of surprised the LRM battery was not mentioned i always had great luck with them 14' range infiltrate and streak for 2 and that the Wolf Hunters pieces were not mentioned since their dials are fashioned after the Steel Wolf dials

[GhostCat]

Kind of surprised the LRM battery was not mentioned i always had great luck with them 14' range infiltrate and streak for 2 and that the Wolf Hunters pieces were not mentioned since their dials are fashioned after the Steel Wolf dials

That sounds like you were very lucky, then.  The LRM Battery is vulnerable to Planetary Conditions that damage infantry not labeled as Battle Armor.  High damage Antipersonel weapons would destroy whole formations with a single attack on an Assault Order.  Without a transport unit to relocate them, they might never get a chance to participate in a battle that never comes close to them. 

Wolf Hunters have not been mentioned in this thread because Wizkids specificly excluded them from the Clan Wolf/Steel Wolf House Alliance.  Unofficially, I'm sure most players treat them as a subfaction of the other two, but, they have in game options that the other Wolf factions do not have.  Personally, I think the concept of "mercenary faction" could have been expanded on and added at least two other factions retro-actively.  Bannson's Raiders and (Northwind) Highlanders as merc factions would have thrilled the fan base that already liked those factions. 

Just talking about the whole mercenary package deserves a separate thread of it's own.

DieRache, I don't think anyone is flaming any special play style, we are all veteran players here comfortable with the sort of armies we like to build.  You have to admit WK tried to make everyone happy by introducing Special Alliance cards as well as Faction Prides.  Elite's Six Flags Sprint Army is just one example of a Rainbow army type.  I remember one known as "Midnight Run" that featured a lot of VTOLs from several factions.

I play Faction Pure myself and just naturally build that way.  I don't wonder if Steel Wolf has a better Ordinance Truck than Sword Sworn, I just match it to the faction I'm building with.  I even enjoy making armies that are purely factionless, Mercenaries and Gunslingers that wave no flags for anybody.

GC

[elite130]

And by Meta gamer helping kill the game I mean those that sought out every loop hole in the rules, that were rule lawyers,  that made it unfun for alot of ppl.  Sorry if my saying i enjoy the challenge of playing faction pure upsets you but that is how I play.

Meta gaming did not kill MW, that is something I abhor as a statement. WK killed it. Do you truly belief that I wanted to kill of MW ? I have no problem claiming to be a Meta gamer. I doubt you understand what the concept means truly.

Wiki
Metagame analysis involves framing a problem situation as a strategic game in which participants try to realise their objectives by means of the options available to them. The subsequent meta-analysis of this game gives insight in possible strategies and their outcome.

So analyzing the game pieces in order to have a better understanding of the game makes a cheater or something ? That kind of slurs do upset me.

Your willingness to play faction pure does not upset me. Indeed carry on playing and if our paths cross i will play your army with something faction pure....

Kind regards
E130

[DieRache]

Ok maybe Meta gamer was the wrong term to use. I jsut seen too many rules lawyers turn ppl off from the game. Maybe that is term I should have used. You know you have seen the type of person I am talking about. And your posted Meta gamer example well even I have to admit it fits me as well. When I would play someone who was at my level I too thought long and hard about my armies and tactics, dont think you will find anyone who has played me say different. But when I did know i was playing someone who was not then I backed off the fire a little. I still played to win I just did not make it a crushing defeat. Everyone plays to win you are correct but when playing someone who you have outgunned I feel that you should at least make it fun for them as well and if that means  I let the game go 50 minutes and not just crush him with in 20 then so be it.

 And if every we meet then my Wolves stand ready, and please bring what ever you wish. I will gladly play against any army there is. I am trying to get the game going again in my area. Hell I even gave a huge lot of RoTs to a new player just to get him going.

 And yes WK more damage to the game than anything else. Bad units, leaving factions out, stupid rules that made no sense, rewriting the Battletech history to meet their ends, and most of all dishonesty with the players.

[rjp927]

All this talk about mech is really making me miss game. I wish it kept going and there were people still around to play it with in michigan

[DieRache]

Where at in Michigan are you?

[rjp927]

Kalamazoo area

[Men Shen]

I'v got to agree with DieRache and I'v been on both sides of the coin. I used to make the strongest army using any and as many factions as I wanted and won a lot. After a while I decided to go faction pure and found more of a challenge any one can make an uber army and be very competitive with it, but I feel it takes a stronger player to win with faction pure, but again play any way you want, the games pretty much dead. I'v got a ton of le's sitting in my attic and player certificates to prove my skill and right now they are all collecting dust.

[PeripheryPirate]

any one can make an uber army and be very competitive with it

That is where you are wrong, and that is why attitudes such as this are regarded as pompous. There is no more skill involved with building a faction-pure army than there is with building a rainbow army, just different restrictions. Both methods take army-building skills. Rainbow armies do not magically create themselves, and not everyone can make one that's very competitive.

[rjp927]

Try using steal wolves with Bansons Raiders. The Situational Alliance of "When a friendly unit is given an order, you may repair that unit of 1 damage or you may deal 1 pushing damage to that unit before or after the order is resolved. You may not repair the unit if a black repair marker or the green starting marker shows on its combat dial" is extremely useful.  Gives the wolves a little extra kick

[Mecha82]

Not just that but it also helps BR as they are extremely repairable.

[Men Shen]

That is where you are wrong, and that is why attitudes such as this are regarded as pompous. There is no more skill involved with building a faction-pure army than there is with building a rainbow army, just different restrictions. Both methods take army-building skills. Rainbow armies do not magically create themselves, and not everyone can make one that's very competitive.

Experience tells me that anyone with a good grasp of the rules, units and tactics can cherry pick the most powerful units in the game and make an extremely competitive army and do very good with it. I'm sorry if I sounded pompous to you, that was not my intent. Dudes playing cheese armies are why the game died in my area and why I have boxes of stuff collectiong dust. Call me out if you want, I'm going to go paint some mechs from a game that's still alive.

[GhostCat]

Experience tells me that anyone with a good grasp of the rules, units and tactics can cherry pick the most powerful units in the game and make an extremely competitive army and do very good with it. I'm sorry if I sounded pompous to you, that was not my intent. Dudes playing cheese armies are why the game died in my area and why I have boxes of stuff collectiong dust. Call me out if you want, I'm going to go paint some mechs from a game that's still alive.

Cherry picking power units?  Cheese Armies?  Sounds more like sour grapes to me.

My very first encounter with what became known as Cheese was the Maxim-Schmitt Tank Drop.  Okay, so I wasn't prepared for it and I lost the game rather quickly, but gracefully.  Then, because it did finish fast I asked him to show me how it worked, and it didn't take long to learn how to defeat it.  I never lost to such a simple trick a second time, but that's just part of the game.

To whine about the Cheese and Power Pieces is missing the point when good play with pieces you know can still prevail.  Learn from your opponents, and learn from your mistakes.  Believe me, when your ability improves, so does the Fun for both you and the other players.

GC