Heavy Sniper Rifles

[GBscientist]

Having read through the equipment section in AToW, I noted that the available sniper rifles are decidedly anemic by the latest standards.  Does anyone have any suggestions on stats for a sniper rifle chambered for .338 Lapua Magnum or .50 BMG?  Those seem to be the new standards for medium and heavy sniper rifles and BT just doesn't seem to have an equivalent.

[MaxieTPB]

I'm afraid I don't have any suggestions, but I'm *very* interested if someone comes up with some.

[GBscientist]

In terms of range, the extreme ranges of the .338 LM and .50 BMG are about 1500m and 2200m, respectively.  It shouldn't be too hard to extrapolate the rest of the range bands from those.  For damage, the .50 BMG should probably have the same damage values as a heavy machine gun, but I don't have those AToW figures on me at the moment.  The .338 LM's damage is a little bit harder to figure out because there's no machine gun that would use an equivalent round.

[Jackmc]

The Support (ie Heavy) Machine Gun gets it's raw damage potential from being a burst weap and when you look at it on a single shot basis, it's damage code is actually equalled by the Zeus rifle.  So I'd just tack 2 kg onto the weight of the Zeus (which coincidently would then equal the weight of the generic BT Sniper Rifle) to represent a longer barrel and then rename it the Zeus DMR and give it range bands to taste.   

-Jackmc

[GBscientist]

I agree that the actual damage codes attributed to MGs of all flavours by AToW are pretty weak.  To make heavy sniper rifles worth while, I would rationalise that a sniper rifle would make better use of the energy of the cartridge .50BMG cartridge than an MG, granting the sniper rifle a 6B/6 damage code right off the bat.  I'd then give the .338LM rifle a damage code of 5B/6.  This makes both rifles quite devastating to conventional infantry, even if armoured, and makes the .50BMG sniper rifle a credible threat to light vehicles when paired with armour-piercing ammunition.

[beachhead1985]

the Zeus, is sometimes fluffed as a heavy sniper rifle, being referenced in Dagger point and else where as putting out a 13mm round and in Black Dragon as truely being more akin to a barret, or heavier weapon.

I always equated it more with one of the big-bore ARs myself

[GBscientist]

Other than being semi-automatic, which I would prefer to avoid in a sniper rifle, your suggestion of a long-barreled Zeus could work for a medium sniper rifle, beachhead.

[snewsom2997]

A Magshot or Tsunami Infantry Gauss Rifle?

[Jackmc]

Other than being semi-automatic, which I would prefer to avoid in a sniper rifle, your suggestion of a long-barreled Zeus could work for a medium sniper rifle, beachhead.

The accuracy difference between a bolt acton and a modern semi-auto purpose-built DMR is relatively minor by all accounts.  just tag a -1 to extreme range accuracy and be done with it.

As for the damage codes, I don't think you'll be able to get what you want because BT tac armor effectively ignores smalls arms fire.  Rather than upping the damage codes to game-wise unrealistic points, you'd be better served by moddign the called shot rules to allow a trained marksmen to hit weak areas like you could vs. BA in 3rd ed.

-Jackmc

[Nebfer]

the Zeus, is sometimes fluffed as a heavy sniper rifle, being referenced in Dagger point and else where as putting out a 13mm round and in Black Dragon as truely being more akin to a barret, or heavier weapon.

I always equated it more with one of the big-bore ARs myself

The Zeus Per the 2nd ed of the RPG is mentioned that it resembles the 50 cal sniper rifles of the 20th century... (which is probably where we get the ~13mm sized rounds in Black Dragon and Dagger point from...)

Though whats freaky about this is that in three different places they mention that the rounds velocity is practically hypersonic, thats equals a lot of energy in them rounds. and not to mention in one book (one of the caberos (SP?) books -Black dragon I think) the mention a range of at lest 3,000m for the Zeus...

[Jackmc]

The small arms in BT are radically more powerful than present day weapons, they have to be to even have the incredibly slim chance they have now of damaging anything with a high BAR rating.  To put it in perspective, some BT rifles seem to have kinetic energy levels on par with mid-Cold War era tank cannons (compared with the rough equivalent that a Light Canon is ~= to a modern 120mm MBT gun.

-Jackmc

[GBscientist]

Yes, but their BD scores are still too low to achieve the one-shot kill that modern sniper rifles are designed for.  I can accept that they have difficulty with BT armour, even body armour, but where does all that energy go once they've penetrated the armour?

[Jackmc]

Yes, but their BD scores are still too low to achieve the one-shot kill that modern sniper rifles are designed for.

Game out a few scenarios rather than just looking at the stats.  I did that when the game was in test, and the stock sniper rifle on an average shot is capable of putting even an an unarmored Elemental on the immediate verge of death and had no trouble mowing down targets with a more realistic BOD 3-5.

-Jackmc

[Crunch]

Game out a few scenarios rather than just looking at the stats.  I did that when the game was in test, and the stock sniper rifle on an average shot is capable of putting even an an unarmored Elemental on the immediate verge of death and had no trouble mowing down targets with a more realistic BOD 3-5.

-Jackmc

Especially with hit location rules in effect.

[Paul]

Especially with hit location rules in effect.

Boom, headshot.

But yeah, the other thing to ponder is bleeding rules, and injury modifiers; often fatal injuries aren't immediately fatal. Meanwhile, the dude who just took a plug isn't likely to be that useful in combat anymore regardless.

[Edit:] Forgot to add, but MoS can be additional damage as well.
Which is relevant when sniping at relative close range, where the situation might lend itself to high enough MoS to account for 2 or so more damage. Never mind rolling exceptionally well.

Paul

[Jackmc]

Boom, headshot.

But yeah, the other thing to ponder is bleeding rules, and injury modifiers; often fatal injuries aren't immediately fatal. Meanwhile, the dude who just took a plug isn't likely to be that useful in combat anymore regardless.

Exactly.  Though in fairness, the game can give a false impression of lowered lethality at first blush.  This is because there's natural tendancy to benchmark weapons vs the high end which means that people often pick Elementals as their benchmark, and you guys did a good job in making sure that Elementals lived up to their legendary toughness.  Frex, a headshot vs an Elemental will leave them at death's door but their natural resilence means that they're pretty likely to pass the checks needed to avoid bleeding out and will eventually recover if not further molested (which in and of itself makes for some really great rp hooks).  OTOH, an average person (BOD 3-4 without Toughness or Pain Tolerance) will likely be instantly killed and is almost guaranteed to bleed out unless a medic is in very close proximity.   


-Jackmc

[doulos05]

Boom, headshot.

But yeah, the other thing to ponder is bleeding rules, and injury modifiers; often fatal injuries aren't immediately fatal. Meanwhile, the dude who just took a plug isn't likely to be that useful in combat anymore regardless.

Yeah, actually my understanding of most sniper kills is that unless they hit the head, neck, or similar place, they aren't instant kills. Rather the soldier bleeds out. I'm taking this from a collection of stories from current day snipers operating in Iraq and Afghanistan, it includes details of shoots from US and insurgent snipers and common to most of the stories is that if it's not a headshot, they don't go down. In one of them, the sniper scored 3 hits center mass with an M24 before the insurgent stopped trying to shoot. Obviously by the second hit, he was a dead man, but he wasn't completely dead.

[Edit:] Forgot to add, but MoS can be additional damage as well.
Which is relevant when sniping at relative close range, where the situation might lend itself to high enough MoS to account for 2 or so more damage. Never mind rolling exceptionally well.

Paul

This is also good, since the marker of a sniper is skill shots.

[Jackmc]

Yeah, actually my understanding of most sniper kills is that unless they hit the head, neck, or similar place, they aren't instant kills.

Even then, it's not instakill a lot of the time.  frex Kennedy lived for almsot 15 minutes after his head shot.

-Jackmc

[GBscientist]

Alright.  After reviewing the rules that Paul cited, I'm conviced that AToW's sniper rifle options do enough damage to take down the average (or above average with luck) person.  I'm still dissatisfied with their ranges, though.

[doulos05]

Alright.  After reviewing the rules that Paul cited, I'm conviced that AToW's sniper rifle options do enough damage to take down the average (or above average with luck) person.  I'm still dissatisfied with their ranges, though.

Welcome to Battletech. Ranges are generally anemic. You could up them for your game pretty easily.

[Paul]

Welcome to Battletech. Ranges are generally anemic. You could up them for your game pretty easily.

Yeah, just a factor 2 does the trick. 3 if you want something a bit more magical, presuming built-in targeting assistance of the weapon.

I dunno, I barely hit the target at 200 yards myself with .22 and 5.56mm, but I'm quite the nuub, ye olde +0 skill.
I did get the one .50 BMG I've ever fired from a guy's rifle on target though, after he had his scope dialed in. I may be convinced of my theoretical ability of hitting targets beyond that if provided the appropriate gear, but I can't even imagine the skills required of snipers hitting at 1km or more.

Paul

[Jackmc]

Something to be aware of:  I've got a fair bit of experiene GM'ing fairly realistic RPG's and sniper weapons (with realisticly long ranges) in them and, unless used incredibly sparingly, sniper rifles ruin the experience resulting in either excessive player casualties or reducing NPC's to mere cannon fodder and thus removing the thrill from combat.

-Jackmc

[GBscientist]

Something to be aware of:  I've got a fair bit of experiene GM'ing fairly realistic RPG's and sniper weapons (with realisticly long ranges) in them and, unless used incredibly sparingly, sniper rifles ruin the experience resulting in either excessive player casualties or reducing NPC's to mere cannon fodder and thus removing the thrill from combat.

-Jackmc

Interesting point.  That's something I hadn't considered.

[Crunch]

Interesting point.  That's something I hadn't considered.

Yeah. Head shots from half a mile away are fun only if you're doing the shooting and then they don't exactly make for challenging games.

From my experience running Cyberpunk you are going to really want to watch how much long range fire power has the ability to impact your game, nothing will kill fun factor faster than PCs "killed by an act of god" with no chance to influence events.

[Dread Moores]

+2 to what Jack and Crunch mentioned.

Sniper rifles were often best left unused in our Shadowrun games for that very reason. While they sound awesome in theory, they quickly led to bored players or dead players.

[Crunch]

+2 to what Jack and Crunch mentioned.

Sniper rifles were often best left unused in our Shadowrun games for that very reason. While they sound awesome in theory, they quickly led to bored players or dead players.

And Shadowrun is nowhere near as lethal as a more realistic system like ATOW or Cyberpunk. I'm starting my first full on ATOW campaign next month and my plan for the first fight is thugs with clubs and maybe a single light handgun just to get the players used to the lethality of the system.

[Headshot]

Yes, but their BD scores are still too low to achieve the one-shot kill that modern sniper rifles are designed for.  I can accept that they have difficulty with BT armour, even body armour, but where does all that energy go once they've penetrated the armour?

Uhm, the better the armor penetration of a round, the less energy is transferred into "soft targets", like the human body. The bullet simply goes through.
You want maximum energy transfer (=stopping power), that means something like hollow-point or glaser, but those rounds have again lousy armor penetration characteristics, and aren't the best option for sniping anyway.

Ofcourse, the heavy Elemental armor can result in fun stuff. While a very powefull round might have enuff power to penetrate it once, thats unlikely to happen again on the backside. Depending on velocity and angles, you might get some nice ricocheting and tumbling going...

[guardiandashi]

Ofcourse, the heavy Elemental armor can result in fun stuff. While a very powefull round might have enuff power to penetrate it once, thats unlikely to happen again on the backside. Depending on velocity and angles, you might get some nice ricocheting and tumbling going...

the postleen war novels by ringo have this happen a lot with the acs you get these suits of armor that are ... almost impervious to most of the enenmys are packing and then you get the times when a railgun round hits "just right" and penetrates the frontal armor but without enough to go through and through the suit and starts ricochetting around the inside of the suit starting from multiple times the speed of sound

[Nebfer]

Alright.  After reviewing the rules that Paul cited, I'm conviced that AToW's sniper rifle options do enough damage to take down the average (or above average with luck) person.  I'm still dissatisfied with their ranges, though.

Well so am I but at lest it's not halos ranges... MGs with 100m ranges...

Though for the most part, it's more of a support weapons range issue. Though 700m for rifle caliber snipers is ok if not stellar. 400m for Auto Rifles is ok, not terrific but decent enough (the effective range of the M16 in the 1960s was supposedly ~400m). However when Recoilless Rifles & Mortars have sub km ranges...

Though its interesting as in some of the novels they mention snipers engaging targets at 800, 1,000, 2,000 and even 3,000 meters.

Though for the most part for basic infantry small arms the ranges are decent for the most part, In any case playing "sniper tech" is not exactly fun for most people... On the other hand in some cases Infantry ranges could considerably out range battlemech ranges...

[truetanker]

Elephant gun on a gyro-Wlado with a custom silincer and using Sub-Sonic ammo.

Should do the trick for ya.

TT