BattleTech - The Board Game of Armored Combat

Off Topic and Technical Support => Off Topic => Topic started by: Sharpnel on 19 November 2018, 15:20:02

Title: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Sharpnel on 19 November 2018, 15:20:02
(http://www.airforce-technology.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/4/2017/09/eagle2.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures Part the Fourth
Post by: Fat Guy on 19 November 2018, 15:25:04
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4c/Tu4.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures Part the Fourth
Post by: Fat Guy on 19 November 2018, 15:26:12
(https://i.stack.imgur.com/B7rMQ.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Fat Guy on 19 November 2018, 15:28:59
(https://wallscover.com/images/douglas-a4-skyhawk-wallpaper-15.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: worktroll on 19 November 2018, 15:29:46
(http://www.adf-gallery.com.au/gallery/albums/Phantom-69-0304/Phantom_69_0304a.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: worktroll on 19 November 2018, 15:30:48
(http://www.airvectors.net/avtu160_3.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: JadeHellbringer on 19 November 2018, 15:31:51
(https://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/world/france/images/mir-iv.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 19 November 2018, 15:37:15
(https://amp.businessinsider.com/images/568d7ee6c08a801c008b7616-1136-874.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Kidd on 19 November 2018, 15:41:51
(https://i.postimg.cc/1X5LSz3q/LCC3ship.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Bedwyr on 19 November 2018, 15:50:16
I just gots to represent the civilian side of things:

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/79/Helio_H295_Courier_Valle_AZ_22.10.05R.jpg)

ADMIN EDIT: Picture sizes, people! Think of those of us on smaller screens and with less-than-stellar connection speeds! +Hellbie+

MOD EDIT: On the other hand, it's a really good way to identify people with 15 inch monitors. Eh? Eh? Ok fine, I'll do better next time.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Deadborder on 19 November 2018, 16:25:27
(http://www.airvectors.net/avtu160_3.jpg)

You win
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Sharpnel on 19 November 2018, 17:04:09
Back to the early days of flight

Fokker D.IV

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2d/Fokker_D.IV.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Feenix74 on 19 November 2018, 18:18:05
I am going to go with one of the original fourth generation fighters, the F-14 Tomcat.

(https://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--VQ3-M1Ay--/c_scale,f_auto,fl_progressive,q_80,w_800/j3ban44vxdfebjsmwipu.jpg)

Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Charlie 6 on 19 November 2018, 18:42:06
I am going to go with one of the original fourth generation fighters, the F-14 Tomcat.

(https://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--VQ3-M1Ay--/c_scale,f_auto,fl_progressive,q_80,w_800/j3ban44vxdfebjsmwipu.jpg)
I was wondering who would go with that theme.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Luciora on 19 November 2018, 19:01:24
F4F Wildcat on board the USS Hornet.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Feenix74 on 19 November 2018, 19:20:27
Yep, that would be me  8)

(https://fullcolorbirds.files.wordpress.com/2010/01/f14-photo-vx4-01xl11.jpg)

(https://blog-imgs-38-origin.fc2.com/s/t/e/steveski/gallery_4977_6_19593s.jpg)

A F-4 and a F-14 from VX-4
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Feenix74 on 19 November 2018, 19:29:09
Apologies for the double post but need some better quality shots of those two aircraft

(https://imgproc.airliners.net/photos/airliners/7/4/1/0449147.jpg?v=v40)

(https://fullcolorbirds.files.wordpress.com/2010/01/0805233.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: truetanker on 19 November 2018, 19:43:59
This is the only flying pic I care for!
(http://turcopolier.typepad.com/.a/6a00d8341c72e153ef01b8d15c89e5970c-800wi)

TT
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Ghost0402 on 19 November 2018, 19:51:08
This is the only flying pic I care for!
(http://turcopolier.typepad.com/.a/6a00d8341c72e153ef01b8d15c89e5970c-800wi)

TT
Very true.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Cache on 19 November 2018, 20:01:55
Indeed, pigs can fly.

(I missed working on these gorgeous beasts by a few years.)   :'(
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: truetanker on 19 November 2018, 20:25:45
Here's some wingmen for you!
(http://www.freakingnews.com/pictures/60500/Muppets-Flying-a-Plane-Over-Miss-Piggy--60978.jpg)

TT
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Bren on 19 November 2018, 21:06:03
Aviation Pictures: the Fourth Hurricane (mark)

(http://www.modelarovo.cz/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/raf064-1500x994.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 19 November 2018, 21:48:46
And an F4U with 20mm cannon instead of the .50s.

Which would you rather have, six .50s or four 20s?  All missions, standardized package for either ground support or air supremacy.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: truetanker on 19 November 2018, 22:42:23
.50's...

Cause I can then upgrade to the Mk 323 SLAP rounds.

TT
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Kidd on 20 November 2018, 00:32:15
And an F4U with 20mm cannon instead of the .50s.

Which would you rather have, six .50s or four 20s?  All missions, standardized package for either ground support or air supremacy.
Well, the 20s were generally considered superior firepower and were in high demand, nearly every Brit fighter absolutely had to have Hispano 20s no matter what they had originally been armed with. So I'd go with that.

But as the Spitfire eventually came to say, "Why not both?" so that's also an option.

(http://goactionstations.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/Gold1stWhiteCliffsTD314.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: truetanker on 20 November 2018, 00:59:07
I'd rather have an American made P-38L, personally.

Quad .50s and a Hispano 20mm to boot, plus 1600hp engines...

TT

(https://milviz.com/flight/products/P38L/images_01/03.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 20 November 2018, 01:26:48
Didn't the 20mms have problems in the Spitfires because they were installed upside down or something?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Feenix74 on 20 November 2018, 01:30:05
If more is better then I choose a Bristol Beaufighter, four 20 mm Hispano Mk III cannons and six .303 in (7.7 mm) Browning machine guns.

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fb/NM_of_USAF_Beaufighter.jpg)

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/37/Beaufighter_%28AWM_OG0001%29.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 20 November 2018, 01:34:21
Didn't the 20mms have problems in the Spitfires because they were installed upside down or something?
They didn't have a recocking mechanism, so if the gun misfired or something then it was done.  Meanwhile the Americans built all theirs with oversize chambers and had constant malfunctions because of it, and never bothered to fix it despite being shown the difference between Brit 20s and American ones.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Kidd on 20 November 2018, 02:07:27
Well I've posted it before, but I have a soft spot for the Westland Whirlwind - by all accounts a potential monster that died stillborn, and the first Brit to mount the HS.20s - four of them, in the nose.

(https://i.postimg.cc/Z5PL7292/The-Westland-Whirlwind-01.jpg)

If more is better then I choose a Bristol Beaufighter, four 20 mm Hispano Mk III cannons and six .303 in (7.7 mm) Browning machine guns.
Not to mention the rocket racks.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Ruger on 20 November 2018, 04:03:31
If more is better then I choose a Bristol Beaufighter, four 20 mm Hispano Mk III cannons and six .303 in (7.7 mm) Browning machine guns.

I counter with the P-61 Black Widow...four 20 mm cannons and four .50 caliber machine guns...and rockets under the wings...

Ruger
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Daryk on 20 November 2018, 04:48:34
The Black Widow gets my vote.
(https://goo.gl/images/V7Fbk2)

EDIT: But won't display for some reason.  Here's the link: https://goo.gl/images/V7Fbk2
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Kidd on 20 November 2018, 05:05:51
I counter with the P-61 Black Widow...four 20 mm cannons and four .50 caliber machine guns...and rockets under the wings...

Beau had rockets too.

Dat fuselage though... "Oddball, do you copy? Form up on me, we're going after the Invisible Hand..."
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: glitterboy2098 on 20 November 2018, 05:46:21
an Ironic full circle..

Nigeria recently took delivery of the first batch of Pakistani "Super Mushshak" training planes, which Nigeria will be using as both a trainer and as light attack and scouting craft.
(https://www.newsreportersng.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/2089559-1-620x330.jpg)

the Super Mushshak is a Pakistani license build of the Saab MFI-17 Supporter. (a militarized version of their MFI-15 Safari)
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0f/Saab_Safari.jpg)


which in turn was a modernization of the Saab MFI-9.

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/69/Malmo_MFI-9_Junior_%28SE-CPG%29_03.jpg)

which had  its own militarized model, the MFI-9B, a squadron of which was used as light attack and scouting craft by the nascent (and doomed) nation of Biafra during the Nigerian civil war.
(https://flyvertossetsaviationblog.files.wordpress.com/2014/12/biafra4.jpg)


i wonder if they are aware of the irony?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: grimlock1 on 20 November 2018, 08:04:48
The Black Widow gets my vote.
(https://goo.gl/images/V7Fbk2)

EDIT: But won't display for some reason.  Here's the link: https://goo.gl/images/V7Fbk2

We call the Phantom and the 'Hog ugly? 

I counter with the P-61 Black Widow...four 20 mm cannons and four .50 caliber machine guns...and rockets under the wings...

Ruger
Nevermind.  I'm not going to argue with a fighter carrying that many guns.

What's the mechanism to protect the vertical tails from the turret?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Luciora on 20 November 2018, 11:03:32
Later versions of the Widow removed the turret, as it caused buffeting during flight and use.  Still kept the belly cannons though.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: chanman on 21 November 2018, 14:08:51
Aviation Pictures: the Fourth Hurricane (mark)

(http://www.modelarovo.cz/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/raf064-1500x994.jpg)

I was just wondering this week if having the Vickers S-equipped Hurricanes available for the Blitz would have provided measurably better results against the Luftwaffe's bombers. Might slow them down enough to have trouble catching Ju-88s flying light after dropping, but it'd be able to catch the He111s without trouble and punch far larger holes than .303s
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Kidd on 21 November 2018, 14:34:57
12-15 rounds per gun wasn't exactly the most suitable for air combat.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 21 November 2018, 14:36:56
Catching a bomber after it's already dropped isn't terribly helpful.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Sharpnel on 21 November 2018, 15:03:58

though it does keep them from coming back for another try.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 21 November 2018, 15:06:48
That's a consolation prize.  The real objective in intercepting bombers is to stop them from, you know, bombing you.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: beachhead1985 on 21 November 2018, 15:23:20
They didn't have a recocking mechanism, so if the gun misfired or something then it was done.  Meanwhile the Americans built all theirs with oversize chambers and had constant malfunctions because of it, and never bothered to fix it despite being shown the difference between Brit 20s and American ones.

they had the same issue trying to copy the mg42 as the t24
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 21 November 2018, 15:24:54
That's a consolation prize.  The real objective in intercepting bombers is to stop them from, you know, bombing you.
Killing bombers, whether or not they drop their payloads today, means they won't be dropping any more payloads at all.  I can accept taking one more day of bombing to eliminate the threat permanently.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: chanman on 21 November 2018, 15:29:07
12-15 rounds per gun wasn't exactly the most suitable for air combat.

I think the .303 Brownings only had enough ammo for 12-15 bursts anyway. It's the destructiveness to the bombers that's important. You can poke a LOT of rifle-calibre holes in an airframe before it's done. That's rather less true for 40mm shells.

Catching a bomber after it's already dropped isn't terribly helpful.

It sure is. The Luftwaffe's aircraft replacement capabilities weren't very good, and even more importantly, they don't get a crew back to pilot the replacement bomber if they're KIA or POWs
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: glitterboy2098 on 21 November 2018, 15:37:56
It sure is. The Luftwaffe's aircraft replacement capabilities weren't very good, and even more importantly, they don't get a crew back to pilot the replacement bomber if they're KIA or POWs
doubly effective in the Luftwaffe's case since they didn't rotate skilled pilots and crews off the frontline to training positions very often. so not only are you removing an existing crew from service, the one that replaces them isn't going to be nearly as skilled at doing their job. making shooting down the next wave of bombers that much easier.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 21 November 2018, 15:45:58
It sure is. The Luftwaffe's aircraft replacement capabilities weren't very good, and even more importantly, they don't get a crew back to pilot the replacement bomber if they're KIA or POWs

Which helps you less if that bomber just took out a factory that was vital to England's war efforts.  If Germany loses its bombers but manages to inflict crippling damage to England's military readiness in the process, that's a net victory for Germany.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Kidd on 21 November 2018, 15:58:43
That's a consolation prize.  The real objective in intercepting bombers is to stop them from, you know, bombing you.
Shooting down bombers after they have dropped their payload today, is equivalent to intercepting them before they drop the payload tomorrow.

It didn't matter as much when the German fighters intercepted the bombers, before or after the bombing; what mattered was inflicting such per-mission losses that continued bombing was unfeasible. Schweinfurt One for example lost about 100 bombers out of nearly 400; Schweinfurt Two lost about 70 out of 300. Keep that casualty rate up and the whole force would be dead in just a couple more missions.

Which helps you less if that bomber just took out a factory that was vital to England's war efforts.  If Germany loses its bombers but manages to inflict crippling damage to England's military readiness in the process, that's a net victory for Germany.
Bombing at the time wasn't so effective that it could achieve war-winning results in less than 10 missions. It took RAF Bomber Command 30 missions (including the highly specialist and highly effective Dam Busters raids) just to deal German production heavy losses... far from killing it entirely. There was no real knockout blow, bombing had to be sustained to be effective.

I think the .303 Brownings only had enough ammo for 12-15 bursts anyway. It's the destructiveness to the bombers that's important. You can poke a LOT of rifle-calibre holes in an airframe before it's done. That's rather less true for 40mm shells.

True, and the Luftwaffe did have some few successes using their 37mm Bordkanones on bomber streams, but the problem is accuracy - unless they were Hans-Joachim Marseille or Erich Hartmann, pilots generally needed those long bursts to either walk the rounds on target or have the target fly through the stream. Can't do that with single-shot weapons.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: David CGB on 21 November 2018, 18:02:24
nice pics so far
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: chanman on 21 November 2018, 18:13:50
True, and the Luftwaffe did have some few successes using their 37mm Bordkanones on bomber streams, but the problem is accuracy - unless they were Hans-Joachim Marseille or Erich Hartmann, pilots generally needed those long bursts to either walk the rounds on target or have the target fly through the stream. Can't do that with single-shot weapons.

Yeah, there's a reason why when you read through fighter pilot accounts, they tend to value situational awareness, marksmanship, and aggressiveness far above any flying talent. See the enemy first, hit them first, and press the attack home. Dogfighting is a largely mutually defensive situation/stalemate.

The Hurricane does give a more nimble and stable gunnery platform that some of the larger craft. In the hands of some of the infamously aggressive units (Free Poles, etc.), they might have hastened the end of German daylight raids.

On bo both the day and night interceptor role though, had the fighter versions of the Mosquito been available a year or two sooner, they may have been able to take a truly terrifying toll, especially as night intruders, attacking bombers still forming up for their night attacks over their airfields.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Kidd on 21 November 2018, 18:41:06
Phantom fans, it seems the Hellenic Air Force still flies 'em. Did not know that.

(https://i.postimg.cc/CxFB6DWg/q-60-url-https-s3-amazonaws-com-the-drive-staging-message-edi.jpg)

Yeah, there's a reason why when you read through fighter pilot accounts, they tend to value situational awareness, marksmanship, and aggressiveness far above any flying talent. See the enemy first, hit them first, and press the attack home.
I should think so! These qualities are practically what sets fighter pilots apart from any other flyer.

Quote
On bo both the day and night interceptor role though, had the fighter versions of the Mosquito been available a year or two sooner, they may have been able to take a truly terrifying toll, especially as night intruders, attacking bombers still forming up for their night attacks over their airfields.
What, during the Battle of Britain? In daytime Mosquitos shouldn't tangle with German bombers over the Continent as they'd still be escorted by fighters. And at night, it was lack of radar that left the RAF effectively helpless at night.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 21 November 2018, 18:41:58
Phantom fans, it seems the Hellenic Air Force still flies 'em. Did not know that.
Fly them high and fly them low...damn low.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: chanman on 21 November 2018, 20:10:53

I should think so! These qualities are practically what sets fighter pilots apart from any other flyer.
What, during the Battle of Britain? In daytime Mosquitos shouldn't tangle with German bombers over the Continent as they'd still be escorted by fighters. And at night, it was lack of radar that left the RAF effectively helpless at night.

They wouldn't be dogfighting in the daytime. They'd be doing what the Me 262s did against the 8th AF B-17s and B-24s. I think you underestimate how much faster the Mosquito was than other planes in the 1940-43 timeframe. The fighter versions also bring a far heavier (and concentrated like the P-38) armament to bear than the Hurricane and Spitfires. There's also some time slack historically since the Mosquito was put on back burner during the early part of the war.

The RAF had airborne radar for night fighters and RAF Mosquitos and Beaufighters were eventually so-equipped, including in efforts to attack German night fighters attacking RAF bombers. During the Battle of Britain/early blitz though, they were using much lower performance converted bombers (A-20 Havocs, Bristol Blenheims) in the role. The switch to Beaufighters and Mosquitos seems limited more by airframe availability (Beaufighters first flew in 1939 and entered service in 1940. Mosquitos first flew in 1940 and entered service in 1941)

Anyone notice the Hughes Devastator from Crimson Skies was in all respects, a dieselpunk X-wing?

(https://forest.watch.impress.co.jp/article/2000/11/01/game106_cs01.jpg)
(https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/starwars/images/6/60/Xwing-SWB.jpg/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/1024?cb=20160704070524)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Kidd on 21 November 2018, 21:05:44
They wouldn't be dogfighting in the daytime. They'd be doing what the Me 262s did against the 8th AF B-17s and B-24s. I think you underestimate how much faster the Mosquito was than other planes in the 1940-43 timeframe.
I'm not that familiar with the magnitude of the Mosquito's speed advantage, no, though I know it was fast enough to give Goering kittens. Wasn't the Fw190 quite fast as well?

Zoom and boom while outrunning escorts does sound fun.

Quote
During the Battle of Britain/early blitz though, they were using much lower performance converted bombers (A-20 Havocs, Bristol Blenheims) in the role. The switch to Beaufighters and Mosquitos seems limited more by airframe availability (Beaufighters first flew in 1939 and entered service in 1940.
And they did terribly. Barely made a dent in German night bombers. Yes though Beaus were available at the time, it was in extremely limited numbers, I think only 1 squadron or so flew them.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: chanman on 21 November 2018, 21:22:40
I'm not that familiar with the magnitude of the Mosquito's speed advantage, no, though I know it was fast enough to give Goering kittens. Wasn't the Fw190 quite fast as well?

Zoom and boom while outrunning escorts does sound fun.

During its trials in early '41, the prototype had a 30 mph speed advantage over the Spitfire Mark IIs. The notoriously short-legged -109s also wouldn't have the gas to chase them far either - they had enough endurance problems dogfighting with the Hurricanes and Spitfires.

The BoB was too early for the FW-190 though (and IIRC, the radial-powered -190s weres always better at low altitude). Mind you, if we get down to it, even if Mosquito development had started sooner, reliable 20mm cannon still may not have been available for them (an interesting question would be how the Westland Whirlwinds fared with their armament, but there were so few of them), so I admit it's kind of a moot point.


Quote
And they did terribly. Barely made a dent in German night bombers. Yes though Beaus were available at the time, it was in extremely limited numbers, I think only 1 squadron or so flew them.

Ah, fair enough. It's hard to keep track of the timeline of electronic developments in WW2 since they moved so quickly
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: worktroll on 21 November 2018, 21:40:17
190s were better under 10,000ft. Which is one reason the 109 laboured on - bombers came over at 15-20,000ft.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Kidd on 21 November 2018, 23:28:48
(an interesting question would be how the Westland Whirlwinds fared with their armament, but there were so few of them), so I admit it's kind of a moot point.
I love the Whirlwinds. AFAIK they didn't have much problem, being mounted in the nose and presumably right way up. I don't think the Hurricanes had an issue either, it was the early Spits with basically retrofitted Hispanos that had that problem.

Quote
Ah, fair enough. It's hard to keep track of the timeline of electronic developments in WW2 since they moved so quickly
Indeed. IIRC the Brits didn't have much (if any) night fighter radar during the Blitz.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Dave Talley on 21 November 2018, 23:29:16
Fly them high and fly them low...damn low.

😳😳😳😳😳😳😳😳
is this some special way to harvest olives by just blowing them out of the trees?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Feenix74 on 22 November 2018, 01:20:45
https://www.abc.net.au/news/science/2018-11-22/us-scientists-fly-aeroplane-using-ionic-wind/10516032 (https://www.abc.net.au/news/science/2018-11-22/us-scientists-fly-aeroplane-using-ionic-wind/10516032)

Love the photo of the P-51 at the beginning of the article, the technology is impressive if they can scale it up.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Fat Guy on 22 November 2018, 10:40:44
Airbus next generation fighter concept:

(https://www.janes.com/images/assets/738/84738/1735009_main.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Feenix74 on 22 November 2018, 19:38:36
Pretty new firebird.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-11-23/boeing-737-deployed-in-newcastle-to-fight-bushfire-world-first/10547636 (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-11-23/boeing-737-deployed-in-newcastle-to-fight-bushfire-world-first/10547636)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Sharpnel on 22 November 2018, 19:52:11
We use 747s to fight forest fires er in the USA.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Bren on 22 November 2018, 20:20:08
I was just wondering this week if having the Vickers S-equipped Hurricanes available for the Blitz would have provided measurably better results against the Luftwaffe's bombers. Might slow them down enough to have trouble catching Ju-88s flying light after dropping, but it'd be able to catch the He111s without trouble and punch far larger holes than .303s

Speed and most definitely climb would have been too impacted to make it worthwhile. Rate of fire (100-120 rnds/min) and magazine size (16 with one in the chamber) would have sealed that line of thinking's fate.

Quad Hispanos were a far better development for destroying bombers.

(https://i.imgur.com/a7B2qRm.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Feenix74 on 23 November 2018, 00:32:20
We use 747s to fight forest fires er in the USA.

We have had the DC-10s come over here to Aus in the past but have not had the 747.

Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: PsihoKekec on 23 November 2018, 01:24:08
As far as I remember there is only one. Long reload time, airfield limitations and a bit of difficulty in low altitude operations due to it's size mean no one is interested in additional ones, firefighting seaplanes from Canadair/Bombardier and Beriev being a better option.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Feenix74 on 23 November 2018, 04:11:41
Traditionally we have used lots of helicopters. It has only been in the last 5 years that the fixed wing aerial waterbombers have taken a bigger role in our firefighting.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: wantec on 23 November 2018, 09:27:20
Airbus next generation fighter concept:

(https://www.janes.com/images/assets/738/84738/1735009_main.jpg)
Nose & cockpit look like off an F-14, wings and tail look kind of like the YF-32
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 23 November 2018, 10:08:40
Europe loves its delta wings, that's for sure.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Kidd on 23 November 2018, 10:30:56
What kind of Euro jet is that, without canards...? Looks like F-35 style EO and IRST pods up front.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Daryk on 23 November 2018, 11:06:31
That picture looks like it's right out of the '80s...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 23 November 2018, 12:14:00
That picture looks like it's right out of the '80s...

Add a few protruding guns and external missiles and it'd look like a GI Joe toy.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Fat Guy on 23 November 2018, 15:24:27
Some nice aggressor Vipers:

(https://combataircraft.keypublishing.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/5/2018/11/AK-Aggressor-VanderMeulen-_hhRV80920_1-1024x681.jpg)


(https://combataircraft.keypublishing.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/5/2016/08/160805-F-YM181-005.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: I am Belch II on 24 November 2018, 09:19:53
Nose & cockpit look like off an F-14, wings and tail look kind of like the YF-32

I'm surprised that it don't have canards. Europe likes them a lot.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 24 November 2018, 12:53:14
They're there, it's just that you canardly see them at that angle.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 24 November 2018, 17:40:55
Missed this one.

https://www.military.com/daily-news/2018/11/04/marine-corps-last-prowler-aircraft-return-final-combat-deployment.html

The last of the Prowlers is gone.

(https://c1.staticflickr.com/8/7410/26516584403_a18bcd6fe9_b.jpg)

VMAQ-2 had a great color scheme.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Sharpnel on 24 November 2018, 19:07:24
They're there, it's just that you canardly see them at that angle.
*groan*
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: I am Belch II on 24 November 2018, 20:20:56
It looks like a F22 and a Mirage offspring. We will see how far it goes and what it will look like in the end after 10 years of design and testing before a roll out of the first model.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: grimlock1 on 26 November 2018, 09:04:33
Some nice aggressor Vipers:

(https://combataircraft.keypublishing.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/5/2018/11/AK-Aggressor-VanderMeulen-_hhRV80920_1-1024x681.jpg)


(https://combataircraft.keypublishing.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/5/2016/08/160805-F-YM181-005.jpg)
That paint job is messing with my sense of scale.  Between that and the high resolution, I felt like I was looking at models for a minute.

It looks like a F22 and a Mirage offspring. We will see how far it goes and what it will look like in the end after 10 years of design and testing before a roll out of the first model.
Current understanding of aerodynamics and stealth will tend to push designs to look similar.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: I am Belch II on 26 November 2018, 09:08:05

Current understanding of aerodynamics and stealth will tend to push designs to look similar.

That is the problem, all the planes will look alike. Airliners will not have stealth but will mostly be twin engine planes with engines on pods under the wings, not a lot of change in the design also.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: chanman on 26 November 2018, 12:44:42
Air works the same everywhere...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: wantec on 26 November 2018, 15:25:31
That is the problem, all the planes will look alike. Airliners will not have stealth but will mostly be twin engine planes with engines on pods under the wings, not a lot of change in the design also.
Until some day a manufacturer finds a way to make a blended body wing design into a passenger/cargo jet. One that meets all the speed/size/efficiency requirements.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Feenix74 on 26 November 2018, 17:51:23
Current understanding of aerodynamics and stealth will tend to push designs to look similar.

Air works the same everywhere...

Or in the words of an aerospace engineer "Ye cannae change laws of physics"
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 27 November 2018, 00:50:41
Until some day a manufacturer finds a way to make a blended body wing design into a passenger/cargo jet. One that meets all the speed/size/efficiency requirements.
From what I understand that's doable for cargo, but there's no way legally to do it as for passengers - the wingstubes arrangement means you get a lot of emergency exits and quick access to them.  Getting everyone out of a lifting body design takes quite a bit longer than 45 seconds.

I mean, unless you seat people in the bomb bay...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 27 November 2018, 03:34:06
Hmm, where would you put the emergency exits on such a design?  Seems like you'd need ladders that lead to the top of the aircraft or something.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: grimlock1 on 27 November 2018, 08:17:23
I thought there was also some concern about passenger comfort if the cabin gets too wide.  Folks further out would feel more pronounced motion during a bank.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Feenix74 on 27 November 2018, 23:23:11
Sad to read that another icon of my time in the service is retiring.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-11-28/adelaide-to-farewell-p-3-orions-after-50-years-of-service/10561686 (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-11-28/adelaide-to-farewell-p-3-orions-after-50-years-of-service/10561686)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 01 December 2018, 11:44:54
Bit of a followup to the Hurricane Michael v. F-22 discussion last thread.

https://www.popularmechanics.com/military/aviation/a24750155/f-22-hurricane-michael-repaired/

All 17 aircraft have been restored to flight and are back with their squadrons doing what fighter jets do, no Raptors lost at all.
F-22 stronk.

Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Kidd on 01 December 2018, 13:07:43
So all that hullabaloo about losing 10% of the country's best fighters to a hurricane was all just...

...a storm in a teacup?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: I am Belch II on 01 December 2018, 19:31:19
Nice that the F22s are back in operation.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: beachhead1985 on 01 December 2018, 22:48:26
Bit of a followup to the Hurricane Michael v. F-22 discussion last thread.

https://www.popularmechanics.com/military/aviation/a24750155/f-22-hurricane-michael-repaired/

All 17 aircraft have been restored to flight and are back with their squadrons doing what fighter jets do, no Raptors lost at all.
F-22 stronk.

Wow that belly landing could have been WAAAAY worse; I don't even *see* any portajohns at the side of the runway.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: JarheadEd on 01 December 2018, 23:56:24
(https://i.imgur.com/G5TprMDl.jpg)

The old "Speed enforced by aircraft" 

Roadside operations in Finland back in September.

 https://imgur.com/G5TprMD
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Kidd on 05 December 2018, 09:12:45
TIL US stations in Antarctica are domestically serviced by LC-130 "Ski Herks" (unofficial) operated by the New York Air National Guard.

They have skis and occasionally employ jet assisted takeoff rockets.

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f1/LC130-Takeoff-Greenland.swn.jpg/640px-LC130-Takeoff-Greenland.swn.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 05 December 2018, 12:27:55
Skis on a plane?

I'm trying to think of a way to make it more awesome, but I don't think there is one.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Daryk on 05 December 2018, 12:37:25
Skis on a plane with rockets… It's even more awesome than you think!  :D
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: HobbesHurlbut on 05 December 2018, 14:17:12
Skis on a plane with rockets… It's even more awesome than you think!  :D
Is it more awesome than this stopping almost on the dime? https://i.imgur.com/1DVV3q2.mp4
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Daryk on 05 December 2018, 14:23:34
That's pretty awesome, but that thing can't have much of a payload...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: glitterboy2098 on 05 December 2018, 15:12:40
That's pretty awesome, but that thing can't have much of a payload...
more or less the same payload as a normal fully fueled up C-130. the ski's are there because they can't exactly lay down tarmac over the glacial ice, and wheels don't work well in the snow and ice. they operate fully fueled even though they don't need the range, because they have to keep the engine going during unloading.. if they turn them off the engines will cool down and you'd have to warm them up again before you can fire them up.. something the antarctic bases largely are not equipped to do.
the JATO units are so they can lift off with even more payload than they normally could for a fuel load, basically your typical use of JATO units.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Daryk on 05 December 2018, 15:26:04
That little puddle jumper can carry as much as a C-130??  ???
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: JadeHellbringer on 05 December 2018, 15:35:11
Is it more awesome than this stopping almost on the dime? https://i.imgur.com/1DVV3q2.mp4

Supposedly the old Swordfish landed much the same way- the arrestor wires were less for stopping the plane as keeping it from stumbling back into the air after touching down, the joke went.  ;D

(http://www.historynet.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/Swordfish.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Kidd on 05 December 2018, 15:35:35
He's talking about the LC-130.

As I understand, the LC-130s also operate with all the fuel they need to fly back in case conditions preclude a landing and they have to call it off. The JATO rockets again, are in case runway conditions have deteriorated and the little push is necessary to get the bird off the ice.

Operating in the Antarctic is really a remarkable feat of logistics.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Daryk on 05 December 2018, 15:51:49
Still, that tiny thing can't carry all that much, can it?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Feenix74 on 05 December 2018, 17:35:14
A C-130 can carry a decent load of 6 pallets.

If it is not enough then it is possible to operate a C-17 Globemaster III or a C-5 Galaxy into the ice runway at McMurdo Station in Antartica.

(https://media.defense.gov/2016/Mar/18/2001485500/780/780/0/160318-F-JB957-999.JPG)

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f0/A_C-5B_Galaxy_aircraft_lands_on_the_ice_runway_near_McMurdo_Station_during_Operation_Deep_Freeze_%2790_DF-ST-90-10232.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Daryk on 05 December 2018, 17:44:19
That puddle jumper doesn't look big enough for one pallet, much less six.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Kidd on 05 December 2018, 18:12:54
A C-130 can carry a decent load of 6 pallets.

If it is not enough then it is possible to operate a C-17 Globemaster III or a C-5 Galaxy into the ice runway at McMurdo Station in Antartica.

The purpose of the LC-130 is "domestic flights" ie transporting supplies from McMurdo inland to Amundsen-Scott where the big birds are unable to operate and the skis are necessary

That puddle jumper doesn't look big enough for one pallet, much less six.
Instead of playing the pronoun game, could you specify which aircraft exactly you are talking about?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Daryk on 05 December 2018, 18:20:32
The one HobbesHurburt linked (https://i.imgur.com/1DVV3q2.mp4)...

I don't know what its designation is.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: HobbesHurlbut on 05 December 2018, 18:26:35
The one HobbesHurburt linked (https://i.imgur.com/1DVV3q2.mp4)...

I don't know what its designation is.
I don't know what model it is, but planes used for these purpose are called Bush Planes.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Kidd on 05 December 2018, 18:29:36
Thanks for the clarification.

Well, depending on wind conditions, little guys like that can even do a VTOL-like stop right there, think I've seen a clip like that.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Elmoth on 05 December 2018, 18:32:19
Airbus next generation fighter concept:

(https://www.janes.com/images/assets/738/84738/1735009_main.jpg)

Hello Slayer
(http://cfw.sarna.net/wiki/images/thumb/6/68/Slayer_3025.jpg/691px-07169xxs90wisxn5i7mh9bsrsslteek.jpg?timestamp=20141114215123)

Edit: wrong quote
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Daryk on 05 December 2018, 18:33:55
Little big there... might want to cut that down before a mod wanders by...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Euphonium on 05 December 2018, 19:58:46
Supposedly the old Swordfish landed much the same way- the arrestor wires were less for stopping the plane as keeping it from stumbling back into the air after touching down, the joke went.  ;D

(http://www.historynet.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/Swordfish.jpg)

IIRC a fully loaded Stringbag had a top speed of 85pmh...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: HobbesHurlbut on 05 December 2018, 21:06:56
IIRC a fully loaded Stringbag had a top speed of 85pmh...
Are you sure about that? Mk 1's heaviest load is the torpedo at 1,670 pounds and her speed with that load is 143mph maximum at 5,000 feet (1,450 meters).
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Euphonium on 06 December 2018, 03:15:56
Are you sure about that? Mk 1's heaviest load is the torpedo at 1,670 pounds and her speed with that load is 143mph maximum at 5,000 feet (1,450 meters).

I could easily be mis-remembering, but the numbers I recall were ~145mph clean, ~85mph at max load.
If you've got references then I'm happy to be mistaken
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Sabelkatten on 06 December 2018, 05:42:13
I could see 85 mph being the stall speed.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: JadeHellbringer on 06 December 2018, 09:12:18
I think that was the attack speed, if I remember right (thus the struggles to hit the damned things by the Bismarck's gunners). I know it could do better than that flat-out, otherwise it never would have gone into service- WWI aircraft could outperform THAT, and despite its looks it had the benefit of a whole lot of engine improvement technology between WWI's end in 1918 and 1939.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: I am Belch II on 06 December 2018, 21:32:45
I just don't get how the Swordfish could fly slow enough to evade fire from the Bismark? Wouldn't something slower would be easier to hit then a fast moving target?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 06 December 2018, 21:37:16
The gun turrets weren't set up to turn that slowly- they were built to shoot at faster-moving aircraft so tended to heavily over-correct when attempting to aim.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: HobbesHurlbut on 06 December 2018, 22:02:01
The gun turrets weren't set up to turn that slowly- they were built to shoot at faster-moving aircraft so tended to heavily over-correct when attempting to aim.
Actually the truth was that it was dark, and on Bismarck only, she received TWO different models of the 105mm mounts so the Fire Control couldn't coordinate them effectively.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: DaveMac on 07 December 2018, 10:42:45
Well I've posted it before, but I have a soft spot for the Westland Whirlwind - by all accounts a potential monster that died stillborn, and the first Brit to mount the HS.20s - four of them, in the nose.

(https://i.postimg.cc/Z5PL7292/The-Westland-Whirlwind-01.jpg)
Not to mention the rocket racks.

Static replica under construction

https://en-gb.facebook.com/merlinai57/

Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Colt Ward on 07 December 2018, 12:54:47
Thanks for the clarification.

Well, depending on wind conditions, little guys like that can even do a VTOL-like stop right there, think I've seen a clip like that.

(https://tse3.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.JHh33Rufv1x8ijSbRMBlKAHaEK&pid=Api)

German Storks, or technically Storch, were supposed to be that sort of craft.  Stall speed of 31mph, with proper headwinds they appeared to land backwards even.  I have heard tales of ones that were not tied down lifting into the air with the proper wind.  It was involved with the escape of Mussolini after that rogue Skorzeny and his paratroopers broke him out.  Landed in 30m and took off in 80m even though it was overloaded all on boulder strewn mountain top.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Bren on 07 December 2018, 21:08:22
Well I've posted it before, but I have a soft spot for the Westland Whirlwind - by all accounts a potential monster that died stillborn ...

I think only in Biff's Big Book of WWII Airplanes type books that don't know what they were talking about. It was a fine aircraft that was well liked. It met its end due to engine rationalization and bean-counting.

Sad from an aviation enthusiast point of view, but, that's how you win wars.

(https://i.imgur.com/cDjI5JI.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Sharpnel on 07 December 2018, 22:41:20
Slap some 1st gen jet engines on the Whirlwind and you have a Me-262 clone
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Feenix74 on 09 December 2018, 22:45:37
F-35 arrives in Australia: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-12-10/joint-strike-fighters-touch-down-in-australia/10600732 (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-12-10/joint-strike-fighters-touch-down-in-australia/10600732)

Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Kidd on 11 December 2018, 12:19:23
Meteor missile now in RAF service

(https://i.postimg.cc/nhkkfVT8/typhoon-meteor-2.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 12 December 2018, 01:12:41
Bit of a unique find, early attempts to mitigate the exhaust-gas-ingestion problem the A-10 had with the gunfire potentially choking out the airflow to the engines.  Ultimately they just solved it by having the engine igniters come on automatically while the gun fires, but well...sometimes the solutions were just a little more involved.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Weirdo on 12 December 2018, 07:57:28
First ugly Warthog I've ever seen...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: HobbesHurlbut on 12 December 2018, 08:17:34
First ugly Warthog I've ever seen...
No wonder, it's not a warthog, it's an anteater :P
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Cache on 12 December 2018, 10:36:22
First ugly Warthog I've ever seen...
That... looks familiar for some reason.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: I am Belch II on 12 December 2018, 15:30:14
That is a ulgy A-10. The 2-seat A-10B looked pretty bad also.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Colt Ward on 12 December 2018, 15:33:02
What about the Rattler?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Ruger on 12 December 2018, 17:28:18
That is a ulgy A-10. The 2-seat A-10B looked pretty bad also.

I actually like that two seater...

Ruger
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: chanman on 12 December 2018, 22:00:15
I actually like that two seater...

Ruger

Ditto. That nose reminds me of a He-219 or maybe Me-210/410
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Kidd on 12 December 2018, 22:12:41
Minus points for not having a gun turret for the wizzo

Cobra la la la la la la la!

(http://s3.crackedcdn.com/blogimages/2008/11/rattler.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: truetanker on 12 December 2018, 23:23:08
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/91tEo13tVPL._SX679_.jpg)

Tis better!

TT
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Ruger on 13 December 2018, 05:37:04
Minus points for not having a gun turret for the wizzo

Cobra la la la la la la la!

(http://s3.crackedcdn.com/blogimages/2008/11/rattler.jpg)

Of course, the original version Rattler (when first seen in the comics at General Flagg's funeral) looked more like the A-10...

Ruger
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: HobbesHurlbut on 13 December 2018, 07:10:44
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/91tEo13tVPL._SX679_.jpg)

Tis better!

TT
I like the one that shot water and resembled the YF-23 Black Widow. :P
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 17 December 2018, 22:21:54
Well there's something you don't see every day.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Feenix74 on 17 December 2018, 22:29:13
That QANTAS B747 is ferrying a replacement engine out to rescue an unserviceable B747 that is stranded away from home.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Kidd on 18 December 2018, 05:35:33
(http://image.news.livedoor.com/newsimage/stf/d/d/dde77511c5be8c969739b4fc2ae376a3.jpg)

Aggressor flight of the JASDF, based at Komatsu Base, Ishikawa Prefecture, comprises only a few instructors. Each instructor has his own uniquely-painted aircraft and flight patch - the pilot shown here has a skull, another has a cobra, another a pile of bones...

(http://image.news.livedoor.com/newsimage/stf/9/7/9769fb8fff4f3dbadc1f700496db8101.jpg)

No two aircraft are painted the same. The instructors advise and lead other JASDF squadrons in air-to-air combat techniques. Although they do fly as Aggressors as well, the emphasis is on training other squadrons to be 'self-sufficient', that is, training senior pilots in those squadrons to act as Aggressor flights against themselves

While each JASDF squadron gets about a week or two of training from the Aggressor flight, that means these guys conduct training over 100 days a year

(http://image.news.livedoor.com/newsimage/stf/1/c/1ca03340360c2fc6ec28d4d2a4898e58.jpg)

(http://image.news.livedoor.com/newsimage/stf/4/9/49cfb53088fe3b0b4ecbb6f48c6ae7d9.jpg)

(http://image.news.livedoor.com/newsimage/stf/9/b/9b2ec89d66eb75700785abb9eeb3bba6.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: glitterboy2098 on 18 December 2018, 16:36:51
Ace Combat IRL.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: wantec on 21 December 2018, 20:11:30
Well there's something you don't see every day.
Here's an article about the capability of the 747 to carry a 5th engine. http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/23227/virgin-orbits-rocket-launching-jumbo-jet-reminds-us-a-747-can-lug-a-5th-engine-under-its-wings
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: I am Belch II on 22 December 2018, 03:41:44
It was a mod to the 747 to carry and ferry a 5th engine. There was no cargo planes large enough for the spare engine, and a land or sea travel would take way to long.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 22 December 2018, 07:56:35
From what I recall (through a drug and flu induced haze of purple swirly stuff) the 707 was also built with a fifth mount for ferry ops as well.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: I am Belch II on 22 December 2018, 11:24:01
From what I recall (through a drug and flu induced haze of purple swirly stuff) the 707 was also built with a fifth mount for ferry ops as well.


There are pictures of 707's with the Ferry engine. Qantas again with that.

Here is the 4th engine pic on a Hawker Trident Airliner. A British attempt to make a copy of the 727, a classic 3 engine airliner.
The Trident had major problems with performance  needing the 4th engine on takeoff, and the Boeing 727 was a better plane so the Trident didn't make it.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 22 December 2018, 20:34:17
Freakin' Brits fanboying over their Lightning again.   >:D
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Bedwyr on 26 December 2018, 00:46:46
Here's one for you guys, the V-173 in beautiful yellow colors. I give you the "flying pancake":

(https://thumbs-prod.si-cdn.com/DcyIWZ0weQ3BvxvCHDJbdI9JMTY=/800x600/filters:no_upscale()/https://public-media.si-cdn.com/filer/Restoration-Vought-V-173-631.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 26 December 2018, 01:00:51
All it needs is some flying bacon and flying maple syrup. :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: I am Belch II on 26 December 2018, 04:58:37
A photo of the "Flying Pancake's" angry offspring the XF5U-1 Flying Pancake. Couldn't find a color photo of that plane doing its job.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Bedwyr on 26 December 2018, 10:19:39
Hmm, it doesn't seem to load.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Kidd on 26 December 2018, 11:05:11
A photo of the "Flying Pancake's" angry offspring the XF5U-1 Flying Pancake. Couldn't find a color photo of that plane doing its job.
Where were its guns mounted?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: HobbesHurlbut on 26 December 2018, 11:11:35
Where were its guns mounted?
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2b/Vought_XF5U-1_line_drawings.png)
Wing roots, just outside the radius of the propellers. 6x .50 machine guns.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Sabelkatten on 26 December 2018, 11:38:45
It's understandable that the project was scrapped once jet engines became a thing, but it's kind of strange that nobody's tried it with turboprops later.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 26 December 2018, 11:51:17
It was a contributing forefather to stealth planes, wasn't it?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: JadeHellbringer on 26 December 2018, 12:08:18
It was a contributing forefather to stealth planes, wasn't it?

In a roundabout way. It contributed to the evolution of nonstandard designs such as wingless aircraft (think the X-24, below), oddballs like that, and THOSE lessons later became useful in other designs as well, but it's not like there's a very distinct line to draw between the Pancake and the F-117 or any of that.

(http://www.daviddarling.info/images/X-24A.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Bedwyr on 26 December 2018, 12:26:51
Huh. Vought still exists. Apparently it was bought by an investor group in 2010
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: HobbesHurlbut on 26 December 2018, 18:26:31
It was a contributing forefather to stealth planes, wasn't it?
More like lifting bodies. For contributing forefather to stealth lanes, you look to Ho 229 and such.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: HobbesHurlbut on 29 December 2018, 10:04:52
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H9l8CsKP0SY
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Daryk on 29 December 2018, 11:29:47
That's an interesting video on the Zero vs. the Wildcat.  Thanks!  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 29 December 2018, 13:05:33
One other thing that that video didn't mention was a difference in doctrine between the Japanese and American air forces.  American doctrine pulled experienced pilots back off the front lines after a few months and put them into training duty so they could teach new pilots what they'd learned in combat.  The Japanese kept their pilots flying combat duty, so new pilots weren't getting the advantage of being trained by someone who'd actually fought in the battles they were expected to be going into.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: HobbesHurlbut on 29 December 2018, 14:26:19
One other thing that that video didn't mention was a difference in doctrine between the Japanese and American air forces.  American doctrine pulled experienced pilots back off the front lines after a few months and put them into training duty so they could teach new pilots what they'd learned in combat.  The Japanese kept their pilots flying combat duty, so new pilots weren't getting the advantage of being trained by someone who'd actually fought in the battles they were expected to be going into.
Didn't that video talked about that? That the pilots who survived the battles and returned, taught the new recruits their experience in USN?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 29 December 2018, 14:31:18
He mentioned it a little but it was more of an in passing thing and didn't mention that the Japanese didn't do it at all.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Fat Guy on 29 December 2018, 16:27:20
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/35/Mil_Mi-26_Russian_helicopter_cargo_compartment.jpg/800px-Mil_Mi-26_Russian_helicopter_cargo_compartment.jpg)


If you thought this is the cargo bay of a transport airplane...you'd be wrong!
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Fat Guy on 29 December 2018, 16:29:48
It's the cargo bay of the world's largest production helicopter: the Mi-26 "Halo".

(https://www.janes.com/images/assets/429/85429/1400949_-_main.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 29 December 2018, 16:36:05
That's a big cargo bay.  What's it intended to carry?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 29 December 2018, 18:16:21
I look at that first picture and want to say "It's Russian, so emptiness and depression" from the expression of the guy sitting there.  In reality, "Everything."  Over 26,000 pounds of cargo, or officially up to 90 people, though one was shot down by Chechen rebels in 2002 with 142 people on board.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: PsihoKekec on 30 December 2018, 10:30:29
And it crashed into a minefield.

Anyway it can carry up to 20 tons of underslung cargo so it was the helicopter of choicen when ISAF wanted to salvage crashed helicopters in Afganistan, including Chinooks and in one case Mirage 2000.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: I am Belch II on 30 December 2018, 10:33:00
Mi-26 has the same cargo carry as a C-130
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Fat Guy on 30 December 2018, 20:33:40
The Mi-12 'Homer" would have taken the crown had it ever gone into production.

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0e/Mil_Mi-12_aug_2008_2.jpg/1280px-Mil_Mi-12_aug_2008_2.jpg)

The Fulcrum and Flanker provide scale.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Fat Guy on 30 December 2018, 20:35:41
Yes, it actually flew.

(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-H-4XX4m-0Ok/UQlfxNSTd8I/AAAAAAAAR_U/5XTfgSy3MnM/s1600/0_9f009_d8e19337_orig.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Feenix74 on 30 December 2018, 21:35:27
That thing does not fly . . . It beats the air into submission.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 30 December 2018, 21:47:25
I think it's so bizarre and ugly looking it terrifies the Earth into letting go of it gravitationally.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: CrossfirePilot on 30 December 2018, 22:27:27
I wonder if it is louder than a TU 95?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 30 December 2018, 22:49:38
While we're talking about large, unusual aircraft, how about the Spruce Goose?

(https://www.presstelegram.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/spruce-goose-top.gif?w=711)

According to my grandfather, one of his cousins saw the flight.  The same cousin was also on the team that developed the self-sealing fuel tanks that American fighters used in World War 2.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: CrossfirePilot on 30 December 2018, 23:06:50
The Spruce Goose was originally designed to counter the shipping losses to Uboats by creating a gigantic fleet of gigantic transport planes.  Though by mid 1943 this became irrelevant which probably caused development to loose its urgency.  Now I do wonder how things might have shaped up differently if developed as a High speed WIGE?  Instead of the 10-20days it took a liberty boat it might be only 1-2 days.  Though a liberty boat only carried about 11,000 tones and I think a 747 cargo carries only about 600 tones max.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Deadborder on 31 December 2018, 00:59:06
Yes, it actually flew.

(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-H-4XX4m-0Ok/UQlfxNSTd8I/AAAAAAAAR_U/5XTfgSy3MnM/s1600/0_9f009_d8e19337_orig.jpg)

In a nonsense dieselpunk alternate universe, that thing would have been the best way to get around.

Personally, I love it. It's one of my favourite "what the hell" aviation designs
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Sharpnel on 31 December 2018, 08:27:01
The Mi-12 'Homer" would have taken the crown had it ever gone into production.



The Fulcrum and Flanker provide scale.
Slap some real wings with four jet engines and it likely would have made a pretty decent military transport plane.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Sabelkatten on 31 December 2018, 10:21:06
The Spruce Goose was originally designed to counter the shipping losses to Uboats by creating a gigantic fleet of gigantic transport planes.  Though by mid 1943 this became irrelevant which probably caused development to loose its urgency.  Now I do wonder how things might have shaped up differently if developed as a High speed WIGE?  Instead of the 10-20days it took a liberty boat it might be only 1-2 days.  Though a liberty boat only carried about 11,000 tones and I think a 747 cargo carries only about 600 tones max.
I practice it was a WIGE. I read an article about it some time ago. Apparently the engine power wasn't enough to keep it airborne without ground effect!
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: I am Belch II on 31 December 2018, 11:44:28
The Spruce Goose was originally designed to counter the shipping losses to Uboats by creating a gigantic fleet of gigantic transport planes.  Though by mid 1943 this became irrelevant which probably caused development to loose its urgency.  Now I do wonder how things might have shaped up differently if developed as a High speed WIGE?  Instead of the 10-20days it took a liberty boat it might be only 1-2 days.  Though a liberty boat only carried about 11,000 tones and I think a 747 cargo carries only about 600 tones max.

A 747 can carry about 125 tons at max.
I see the Spruce Goose as a airplane, because it did get off the ground. Of course it never flew again, and didn't even make the most simplest of maneuvers. It was made out of wood because the government didnt want to give vital resources of steel and aluminum to the project.  The Goose was way under powered but it did get in the air as a proof of concept.
 
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Sabelkatten on 31 December 2018, 20:13:14
A WIGE is an airplane. It's an airplane that's built with undersized wings because it's it's only supposed to fly so low that the ground effect (essentially air trapped between the ground and the wings) provides enough lift.

Or in the case of the Spruce Goose, an underpowered aircraft that can't get up to high enough speed to lift above WIGE flight.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: CrossfirePilot on 31 December 2018, 20:37:37
A WIGE is an airplane. It's an airplane that's built with undersized wings because it's it's only supposed to fly so low that the ground effect (essentially air trapped between the ground and the wings) provides enough lift.

Or in the case of the Spruce Goose, an underpowered aircraft that can't get up to high enough speed to lift above WIGE flight.
There we go...gimme 500 of 'em
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Feenix74 on 01 January 2019, 03:44:31
Just to give everybody an idea of the scale of the Spruce Goose and how far ahead of conventional aviation technology/engineering it was:

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/52/Giant_planes_comparison.svg)

It is built on the scale of as modern behemoths such as the Boeing 747 and Airbus 380 (most of us have never been in the presence of an An-225 so I will not mention it here) but from birch timber not aluminium, titanium alloys and composite materials.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 01 January 2019, 05:12:05
"A wingspan wide enough to touch both end zones in a football game."

That's a good way to measure her, though I have to wonder about that height - if Mriya's tail were a single unit, not a split, how big would it be?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: marauder648 on 01 January 2019, 05:16:15
Wasn't the Spruce Goose more akin to a WIGE in its effect, it couldn't fly very high and really its hull and wings acted like lifting bodies.

And if you want some weird, big but beautiful lady of the skies the Saunders Roe Princess has to be up there.

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9c/Saro_Princess_G-ALUN_Farnborough_1953.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: I am Belch II on 01 January 2019, 07:48:18
Here is a more modern idea...that didnt take off or have WiGE the Boeing Pelican
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: marauder648 on 01 January 2019, 07:50:12
An interseting video about the TU-114 airliner

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=22H8M8h6Hdo
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 01 January 2019, 13:14:32
Wasn't the Spruce Goose more akin to a WIGE in its effect, it couldn't fly very high and really its hull and wings acted like lifting bodies.

I'm not sure.  I've heard it claimed that it could have flown higher but the test flight it was on was so short that it didn't have time to try doing so.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 01 January 2019, 14:15:06
Technically it was a taxi test, not a flight test; he wasn't even supposed to go airborne but "Howard Hughes" is your answer to that.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: David CGB on 01 January 2019, 20:45:31
Wasn't the Spruce Goose more akin to a WIGE in its effect, it couldn't fly very high and really its hull and wings acted like lifting bodies.

And if you want some weird, big but beautiful lady of the skies the Saunders Roe Princess has to be up there.

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9c/Saro_Princess_G-ALUN_Farnborough_1953.jpg)
quite beautiful aircraft
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Kidd on 01 January 2019, 20:55:24
More JASDF Aggressor Squadron Camo

(https://i.postimg.cc/pXqVFSm2/aa8e799e7ab2928fbea57dd2100a7cac.jpg)

(http://Https://i.postimg.cc/tCXC7bCS/b2b1a3e714q11.jpg)

(https://i.postimg.cc/kMNgnG9R/f-15-eagle-jasdf.jpg)

(https://i.postimg.cc/6qhWzjzf/MG-9270.jpg)

And a couple of parade designs

(https://i.postimg.cc/DwPN0V0g/Mc-Donnell-Douglas-Mitsubishi-F-15-J-Eagle-Japan-Air-Force-AN217.jpg)

(https://i.postimg.cc/Z5SgJYbn/Mitsubishi-F-15-J-Eagle-Japan-Fighter-Aircraft2.jpg)

(https://i.postimg.cc/vmm0mcpY/BEZb6y2-d.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: worktroll on 02 January 2019, 12:34:58
quite beautiful aircraft

Most definitely! 105 passengers in luxury accomodation. The only way to fly. Ah, but for the uncompleted Saro Duchess ...

(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/b7/1c/28/b71c281f510600296c14d5199df61d37.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: beachhead1985 on 02 January 2019, 13:01:01
Most definitely! 105 passengers in luxury accomodation. The only way to fly. Ah, but for the uncompleted Saro Duchess ...

(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/b7/1c/28/b71c281f510600296c14d5199df61d37.jpg)

HANDSOME! The engine-arrangement looks related to the Comet, which would make sense; given the day.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Daryk on 02 January 2019, 16:39:25
That looks like a cruise liner with wings... On that basis, I suspect I know why it didn't get built...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: worktroll on 02 January 2019, 16:42:44
The fact that there were a LOT of people with airfield-building experience, people with airplane building experience, and people who'd gotten used to flying in planes, destroyed the utility of the long-distance passenger seaplane.

But, like zeppelins, they still tug on our subconcious ...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: HobbesHurlbut on 02 January 2019, 18:23:09
The fact that there were a LOT of people with airfield-building experience, people with airplane building experience, and people who'd gotten used to flying in planes, destroyed the utility of the long-distance passenger seaplane.

But, like zeppelins, they still tug on our subconcious ...
(http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/destroyermen/images/5/57/Consolidated-pby-catalina-maritime-patrol-bomber-flying-boat-drawing.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20141209233910) something about the Cat always get me.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: JadeHellbringer on 03 January 2019, 10:23:12
I'm not sure.  I've heard it claimed that it could have flown higher but the test flight it was on was so short that it didn't have time to try doing so.

I'm trying to find the article, so I'll update if I do, but there was a computer study done by Lockheed (I think it was?) several years ago to see whether or not the plane was capable of more than the little hop it made, and what its performance really would have been like. The conclusion was staggering- in that the computer determined it couldn't have made the hop at all. And yet, it did. So much like the bumblebee, it shouldn't fly and yet...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Istal_Devalis on 03 January 2019, 10:39:45
The idea that 'we dont know how a bumblebee can fly' thing is a myth, BTW. We know very well how it's able to fly. We've known for decades. It sticks around because it's anti-science bullcrap used to 'prove' scientists dont know what they're talking about. 

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/bumblebees-cant-fly/
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: JadeHellbringer on 03 January 2019, 11:04:09
...yeah, that was meant more as a comparison than a real complaint on my end.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Kidd on 03 January 2019, 13:14:52

The conclusion was staggering- in that the computer determined it couldn't have made the hop at all. And yet, it did.

So, just a freak of the wind or something? Or perhaps bad data, considering the relative imprecision of instruments at the time?

The idea that 'we dont know how a bumblebee can fly' thing is a myth, BTW. We know very well how it's able to fly. We've known for decades. It sticks around because it's anti-science bullcrap used to 'prove' scientists dont know what they're talking about. 

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/bumblebees-cant-fly/
Fascinating. I didn't know about this myth to start with.

But even so, since the solution was discovered in the 1970s, doesn't that mean we didn't know how bumblebees etc flew until then?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Weirdo on 03 January 2019, 15:00:13
There's a lot of things we didn't know until the 1970s, such as how bad an idea disco is.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: PsihoKekec on 04 January 2019, 01:09:38
Also, mechanics of bumblebees flight were not exactly a top priority for scientific community.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: glitterboy2098 on 04 January 2019, 01:32:43
it is also more accurate to say that the mechanism was confirmed in the 1970's, as it had existed as a hypothesis and observations prior, and in the 70's they just finally got everyone to agree.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: grimlock1 on 04 January 2019, 08:17:59
Also, mechanics of bumblebees flight were not exactly a top priority for scientific community.
:-)  I suspect that a few entomologists might take issue with that statement :-)

Not that I care.  I mean it isn't like they can train bullet ants to attack on command....  Can they?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: JarheadEd on 05 January 2019, 01:02:38
:-)  I suspect that a few entomologists might take issue with that statement :-)

Not that I care.  I mean it isn't like they can train bullet ants to attack on command....  Can they?

I'll segue back on topic with bugs and planes:

The Gee BEE
(https://i.imgur.com/FDdefmX.jpg?1)

The Grasshopper
(https://i.imgur.com/xWo8fYl.jpg?1)

The Firefly

(https://i.imgur.com/DG9Uaep.jpg?1)


So many Hornets

(https://i.imgur.com/Zk8vfcB.jpg?1)
(https://i.imgur.com/lRe6CN0.jpg?1)
(https://i.imgur.com/Dcof3No.jpg?1)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: JarheadEd on 05 January 2019, 01:07:29
(http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/destroyermen/images/5/57/Consolidated-pby-catalina-maritime-patrol-bomber-flying-boat-drawing.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20141209233910) something about the Cat always get me.

Seamaster for me

(https://i.imgur.com/aJmFoQE.jpg?1)
(https://i.imgur.com/CulKFYp.jpg?1)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 05 January 2019, 02:03:32
I don't think I've ever seen a seaplane with jet engines before.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: PsihoKekec on 05 January 2019, 03:43:50
Soviets had a thing for overdoing it

(https://s14-eu5.startpage.com/cgi-bin/serveimage?url=https%3A%2F%2Fpbs.twimg.com%2Fmedia%2FDF7pN_rWAAAl9pF.jpg&sp=c8fe1fc6c08561bca2bf878c97e806db)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: worktroll on 05 January 2019, 04:03:20
I don't think I've ever seen a seaplane with jet engines before.

Unfortunately the jet engine came along just after massive construction of land runways ...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Sharpnel on 05 January 2019, 04:04:04
The above is more of a WiGE than a true airplane IMO
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Feenix74 on 05 January 2019, 05:24:12
The shape of a flying boat also results in additional aerodynamic drag which means that flying boats are not as efficient as land based aircraft - a big part of the reason why there are jet airliners not jet flying boats.

(https://d3c1jucybpy4ua.cloudfront.net/data/58849/big_picture/unnamed.png?1526075680)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: marauder648 on 05 January 2019, 05:59:58
Most definitely! 105 passengers in luxury accomodation. The only way to fly. Ah, but for the uncompleted Saro Duchess ...

(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/b7/1c/28/b71c281f510600296c14d5199df61d37.jpg)

This beautiful lady kind of reminds me of this fantastic double hulled flying boat idea, it was absolutely huge thing called Airliner No 4 designed by this chap called Norman Geddes

http://www.keiththomsonbooks.com/blog/4

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/73/Airliner_Number_4_-_Norman_Bel_Geddes%2C_c.1929-32.jpg)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airliner_Number_4
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: I am Belch II on 05 January 2019, 06:58:56
With all the Flying boats out there how about two different versions of the Spruce Moose.
Simpsons and Tail Spin. With the more modern update for the Dieselpunk Titanium Turkey.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 05 January 2019, 12:09:46
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airliner_Number_4

Can you imagine being in the wingtips of that thing while it banked?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 05 January 2019, 16:43:24
Can you imagine being in the wingtips of that thing while it banked?
In fairness, imagine that VIEW.

Meanwhile, a unique machine - a P-63 Kingcobra chopped, stretched, and refitted with a lightweight propeller and swept dogtooth wings.  It proved that with appropriate leading-edge slat configuration, swept wings didn't have terrible stall characteristics and made carrier aircraft in the jet era possible. 
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: beachhead1985 on 06 January 2019, 14:28:37
(https://veneremurcernui.files.wordpress.com/2014/07/republic_xf-84h_usaf.jpg)

Reminds me of this beast

Ref link here.

https://veneremurcernui.wordpress.com/2014/07/10/flightline-friday-returns-f-84h-thunderscreech/ (https://veneremurcernui.wordpress.com/2014/07/10/flightline-friday-returns-f-84h-thunderscreech/)

I have heard it called the "Thunder-Shriek", but seemingly; "Thunder-SCREECH" is known as well. According to some sources the vibrations from a super-sonic propeller are very harmful to a pilot located behind one. One old video mentioned heart issues; another headaches and neurological symptoms.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 11 January 2019, 16:32:59
And the award for ballsiest whirlybird driver of the year goes to...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ce9PISHcq4Y (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ce9PISHcq4Y)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: hoosierhick on 11 January 2019, 16:46:08
And the award for ballsiest whirlybird driver of the year goes to...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ce9PISHcq4Y (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ce9PISHcq4Y)

 :o  That could have ended VERY badly. Glad they pulled it off.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Daryk on 11 January 2019, 16:46:35
That guy wins the year, but I think this guy is still winning the decade:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aSzeM50B8hI
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Easy on 11 January 2019, 21:50:37
"Get in!"

"But, the..."

"Get. In. The. Helicopter."

"The boom is..."

"That's not getting in the helicopter. You need to get in the helicopter."

"I'll walk out."

"...and that's when the sergeant punched him, Sir. All I saw."
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 11 January 2019, 22:23:12
"Get to da choppa!"
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: CrossfirePilot on 11 January 2019, 22:42:57
And the award for ballsiest whirlybird driver of the year goes to...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ce9PISHcq4Y (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ce9PISHcq4Y)

Yeah that guy isn't able to sneak up on anyone (due to the clanging sound he makes while walking)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: DoctorMonkey on 12 January 2019, 07:30:40
Top Gun gave usthe wrong idea, from what I can tell fast jet drivers are quite conservative and close to being engineering nerds... it is the A-Team that got helicopter pilots right. Crazy the lot of them.


I know that despite all of the RAF-bashing banter my friends with RN and Army backgrounds throw around, everyone loves the RAF Chinook pilots for getting them out of hairy situations.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: DoctorMonkey on 12 January 2019, 07:32:17
Oh, and on the topic of crazy helicopter pilots, can I recommend a Dan Snow History Hit podcast 2-parter about the SAS in the Falklands: the guys interviewed were very very impressed with the Navy and especially their helicopter pilots.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: grimlock1 on 14 January 2019, 13:38:15
Top Gun gave usthe wrong idea, from what I can tell fast jet drivers are quite conservative and close to being engineering nerds... it is the A-Team that got helicopter pilots right. Crazy the lot of them.


I know that despite all of the RAF-bashing banter my friends with RN and Army backgrounds throw around, everyone loves the RAF Chinook pilots for getting them out of hairy situations.

No matter how much I study the physics and the engineering, watching helicopters do stuff like this still scares me.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Colt Ward on 14 January 2019, 13:45:28
Then we have the recent video where the blades are whipping through the snow on the mountain side, front skids parked on that mountain while the back end hangs in space.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: I am Belch II on 14 January 2019, 20:32:51
The Thunderscreech was one of the loudest planes ever made. It's too bad there is not a video somewhere showing how loud this place was.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Kidd on 14 January 2019, 21:35:43
Eurofighter Typhoon showing off its ordnance - note decoy dispensers

RAF Typhoons are going to replace Tornados in the strike role

(https://thedefensepost.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/raf-eurofighter-typhoon-2016-1170x610.jpg)

Funfact: Colin "Obi Two" McGregor, brother of Ewan McGregor, was a Tornado pilot

(https://i.postimg.cc/wj0Shk3V/nintchdbpict000394225383-e1521802162594.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: grimlock1 on 15 January 2019, 09:48:53

Funfact: Colin "Obi Two" McGregor, brother of Ewan McGregor, was a Tornado pilot


as callsigns go, it could be worse.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: wantec on 17 January 2019, 10:27:52
Out over Hawaii
(http://imagesvc.timeincapp.com/v3/foundry/image/?q=70&w=1920&url=https%3A%2F%2Ftimedotcom.files.wordpress.com%2F2019%2F01%2Fddcca-1.jpg%3Fquality%3D85)

(http://imagesvc.timeincapp.com/v3/foundry/image/?q=60&url=https%3A%2F%2Fs3.amazonaws.com%2Fthe-drive-staging%2Fmessage-editor%252F1547703057756-dddvbt.jpg)

(http://imagesvc.timeincapp.com/v3/foundry/image/?q=60&url=https%3A%2F%2Fs3.amazonaws.com%2Fthe-drive-staging%2Fmessage-editor%252F1547702455997-5035638copy.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Kidd on 17 January 2019, 10:39:55
Out over Hawaii

"...what is?"

-Radar.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: DoctorMonkey on 17 January 2019, 10:42:02
Out over Hawaii


"...what is?"

-Radar.


Is the US really going to sell the F-35 to Japan? or for that matter the RAF/RN FAA (given they did the initial demonstration of harbour attacks at Taranto)?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Colt Ward on 17 January 2019, 10:50:33
Those were not -35s with the B-2.

But yeah, the -35 is slated to be sold, just like we did with -16s & -15s for pretty much the same reasons.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 17 January 2019, 11:50:16


Is the US really going to sell the F-35 to Japan? or for that matter the RAF/RN FAA (given they did the initial demonstration of harbour attacks at Taranto)?

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-buzz/japan-just-built-its-very-first-f-35-joint-strike-fighter-21018

They've had their own under construction for a year and a half now, in addition to a handful from Texas.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Kidd on 17 January 2019, 12:25:52

Is the US really going to sell the F-35 to Japan? or for that matter the RAF/RN FAA (given they did the initial demonstration of harbour attacks at Taranto)?
...I don't see the relevance, but incidentally, yes, the JASDF and RAF are the biggest F-35 partners in terms of orders, at 147 and 138 aircraft each.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: DoctorMonkey on 17 January 2019, 12:31:16
It's a Pearl Harbor reference but never mind, attempts at humour on the internet often fail  :-[
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: HobbesHurlbut on 17 January 2019, 13:51:54
It's a Pearl Harbor reference but never mind, attempts at humour on the internet often fail  :-[
it's also a fail hard because US has been selling military hardware to Japan since Postwar Reconstruction.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 17 January 2019, 14:22:55
I still wish JASDF had decided to buy up the -23.  It's just such an alien looking aircraft that doesn't look like it belongs on this planet.

(https://orig00.deviantart.net/c901/f/2015/239/0/8/yf_23___japan_air_self_defense_force_by_jetfreak_7-d5iz78w.png)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Fat Guy on 18 January 2019, 15:22:11
How about the planet Eden then?


(http://img22.xooimage.com/files/c/f/5/yf-21-fighter-f28e9a.gif)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: grimlock1 on 18 January 2019, 16:21:09
How about the planet Eden then?


(http://img22.xooimage.com/files/c/f/5/yf-21-fighter-f28e9a.gif)

I loved the aeroelastic control surfaces  (https://youtu.be/NSkhkX-MmmE?t=90)during the startup checklist:-)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Cache on 18 January 2019, 19:21:29
How about the planet Eden
Eden ripped off the design from Earth. ^-^ (YF-23 was first.)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 18 January 2019, 22:50:14
You're not wrong, the mecha design staff for Macross Plus spent a few weeks at Edwards during the ATF trials to get a good feel for how things would be handled, and to study the aerodynamics of what they wanted to do.  That the Sturmvogel variable fighter resembles the Northrop-Grumman entry is no coincidence...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Kidd on 18 January 2019, 23:50:39
I have always admired the Japanese for this. When they do something they tend to be very detail-conscious.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: marauder648 on 19 January 2019, 02:09:01
I loved the aeroelastic control surfaces  (https://youtu.be/NSkhkX-MmmE?t=90)during the startup checklist:-)

Basically ProtoMech Pilot right there.  Hell this whole startup sequence could basically be a protomech's start up one. 
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: marauder648 on 20 January 2019, 03:12:48
This might amuse you folks.  Its a gallery of images and comments from an article about an F-22 pilot who gets to fly an F-4 Phantom for the first time.

https://imgur.com/gallery/44swwZX

Quote
After the AHC, I decided to take her up high and do a supersonic MACH run, and by “high” I mean “where never lark nor even eagle flew”; but not much higher, a foot or two maybe. I mean, we weren’t up there high-fiving Jesus like we do in the Raptor, but it was respectable. It only took me the width of the Gulf of Mexico to get the thing turned around while above the Mach.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 20 January 2019, 04:13:13
Got the giggles at the first mention of coal, had a smile the whole time through.  Poor F-22 driver can't make sense of all those round whatsits on the cockpit panels, kept looking for his tablet PCs...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: marauder648 on 20 January 2019, 04:38:24
Well in terms of tech difference its like comparing a P-51D to a Sopwith Camel or an Fokker Eindeker.  Sure the principles and ideas the same, but the difference is still huge. and the F-4's a VERY different bird to the F-22, the F-22's got fly-by-wire and is far more aerodynamic.  The F-4 just had globs and globs of raw thrust.

And yeah its very amusing :D
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 20 January 2019, 05:42:01
In fairness, so does the F-22; those Pratt & Whitneys punch "somewhere over" 70,000 pounds of thrust at max compared to about half that for the F-4.  Though the Raptor also weighs half again as much as the F-4 does...says a lot about the control and finesse that it's got that it can dance like it does despite being ten thousand pounds heavier than a B-17.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: marauder648 on 20 January 2019, 06:03:39
Blimey, I didn't realise the F-22 was heavier than the F-4, I thought the F-22 was lighter than something like the F-15 which is a bloody big plane.  And its that much heavier than a B-17..boggles the mind really.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 20 January 2019, 06:24:43
In all fairness so did I, but going by the Wikipedia the F-22's three sizes* are 43,340-64,840-83,500 while the F-4 runs a svelte 30,328-41,500-61,795 and the B-17 a surprisingly plump 36,135-54,000-65,500.  The Raptor and Phantom are actually just about the same length as a B-17, which is an amazing factoid to me - 63 feet or so for the jets, vs 74 feet for the bomber...and yet the latter gets ten people crammed in it while there's barely room for one in the former two.  Meanwhile the Liberator was a stubby thing at only 67 feet long...

*empty-loaded-MTOW
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: grimlock1 on 22 January 2019, 10:56:19
In all fairness so did I, but going by the Wikipedia the F-22's three sizes* are 43,340-64,840-83,500 while the F-4 runs a svelte 30,328-41,500-61,795 and the B-17 a surprisingly plump 36,135-54,000-65,500.  The Raptor and Phantom are actually just about the same length as a B-17, which is an amazing factoid to me - 63 feet or so for the jets, vs 74 feet for the bomber...and yet the latter gets ten people crammed in it while there's barely room for one in the former two.  Meanwhile the Liberator was a stubby thing at only 67 feet long...

*empty-loaded-MTOW
After working a crew that restored an F-4 for static display, let me say; that is a bloody big wing to sand and prep!

Basically ProtoMech Pilot right there.  Hell this whole startup sequence could basically be a protomech's start up one. 
Protomech or Spectral Omnis did occur to me as I was watching the clip but I was more interested in the control surfaces and the preflight.

A friend shared a clip from Kouya no Kotobuki Hikoutai on facebook that was 2:20 of meticulous preflighting a piston driven fighter.  Sorry I can't figure out how to extract the link or find the original video.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: hoosierhick on 26 January 2019, 18:15:36
This was not a good day for this Tu-22M3 crew: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mjENAhPeUtA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mjENAhPeUtA)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 26 January 2019, 18:25:57
According to the news report linked in that video, two of the crew members died in the crash.

And that's a pretty horrific crash.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Daryk on 26 January 2019, 18:35:49
Looking at the weather, I have to wonder why they were even flying...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: hoosierhick on 26 January 2019, 18:53:10
According to the news report linked in that video, two of the crew members died in the crash.

And that's a pretty horrific crash.

I'm amazed it was only two.  I was surprised that the rest of the plane almost landed on the forward fuselage when it finally stalled and crashed.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Sharpnel on 26 January 2019, 19:16:23
Looking at the weather, I have to wonder why they were even flying...
My thoughts exactly. Extremely poor visibility and it didn't look lie the strip had even been cleared. Somebody needs to get severely punished for this.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Kidd on 26 January 2019, 19:40:52
Damn that is... backbreaking

I heard 1 of the crew managed to get onto a life raft but died anyway
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Ghost0402 on 26 January 2019, 19:52:40
That thing hit hard.   :o  It's a wonder it only broke in one spot, would have thought the gear would have gone through the wings seeing as it isn't a carrier born aircraft.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 26 January 2019, 21:19:16
That thing hit hard.   :o  It's a wonder it only broke in one spot, would have thought the gear would have gone through the wings seeing as it isn't a carrier born aircraft.
They build them with tough gear for rough field landings and unpaved operations.  And once the "neck" became a stress failure point, all the energy went into that instead as the weakest link. 

That said, it sure came in on a steep descent and flared late; I'd say visibility and weather conditions (plus a complete lack of clearing the runway) were primary causes.  Could the snow have fudged the readings of the radar altimeters onboard?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: marauder648 on 27 January 2019, 10:19:19
They build them with tough gear for rough field landings and unpaved operations.  And once the "neck" became a stress failure point, all the energy went into that instead as the weakest link. 

That said, it sure came in on a steep descent and flared late; I'd say visibility and weather conditions (plus a complete lack of clearing the runway) were primary causes. Could the snow have fudged the readings of the radar altimeters onboard?

That's my thoughts too, they seemed to be coming down way too fast for a normal landing and maybe the snow was fuzzing it up enough that they thought they were higher than they were. With visibility like that there's no clues for them to see something like a building or tree etc to warn them off, then they seemed to have come down in a normal decent rather than a landing.  It came in quite straight too from what we could see, not nose up tail down for landing, so something tells me they thought they were higher than they really were.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: hoosierhick on 27 January 2019, 11:05:54
I asked that radar altimeter question in another place I saw this being discussed.  The answer I got was that the snow wouldn't have affected it.  I'm thinking they were high and fast, and both guys up front were heads up trying to make out the ground through the snow and didn't notice how low they really were.  I was really surprised they didn't drive the main gear legs up through the wings when the hit and the weak point was the forward fuselage.  I wonder if the pitch-up of the rest of the plane was solely from the front breaking off or if whoever was flying tried to pull up and the elevators helped.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 27 January 2019, 11:44:12
Front breaking off.  That's a decent amount of weight suddenly missing from the airplane, throwing the COG way behind the wings, and control inputs were severed at that moment.  Along with, I imagine, whatever hydraulic systems the Tu-22 has; control was something that went right out the window.  Same thing happened to TWA 800 when the fuel tank blew, compromised the fuselage, and took the front off to the wing shoulders.

Looks like someone just leaked the initial report here (https://defence-blog.com/news/russian-tu-22m3-bomber-crash-preliminary-report-gives-details.html).  The Russians seem to say she was overloaded, apparently, with piloting error being the primary cause.  Anyone read Russian?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: hoosierhick on 27 January 2019, 14:00:05
Good point with TWA800.  I had forgotten about that.

Has it been said anywhere how long they had been in flight?   I've been wondering if the reports of a overweight landing are a misunderstanding/mistranslation of it being a heavy (hard) landing.  I can see them being heavy if they had just taken off and had to come back for some reason.

Edit:  was looking for some more info and saw that one of the survivors has passed.

Another edit:  Found a screenshot just after it broke.  You can see the elevators are pretty much at neutral pitch.  From here: https://defence-blog.com/news/russian-tu-22m3-crash-expert-says-instrument-landing-system-to-blame-hard-landing.html (https://defence-blog.com/news/russian-tu-22m3-crash-expert-says-instrument-landing-system-to-blame-hard-landing.html)

(https://i.imgur.com/YFrQm88.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 27 January 2019, 14:27:41
"Too heavy" could have a number of connotations to it, yeah.  I'd think either fuel load or if it was carrying ordnance of any kind might have overdone it, like how airliners can take off with more fuel than they are recommended landing with.  Either that or it meant the descent rate was too fast, which was definitely a case.   Watching the video closely, maybe an altitude of 10m or so (less than a second before impact) you can see it start to come up a little in the nose and slow its descent, which I imagine was the pilot seeing the runway position finally.

Frankly with as much snow as there is in the video, I can't tell where the runway ends and the dirt begins, and that's with the benefit of not moving and having a still image to look at.  The pilot never had a chance, in all honesty.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SXVmsm_pmUo

An MD-80 suffering a relatively similar fate, though in this case it was the tail section that separated instead of breaking amidships.  Same high sink rate, same hard impact, and if you look close you can see the fuselage flex pretty hard before the tail breaks off. 
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: DoctorMonkey on 27 January 2019, 16:19:07
Nasty crash
Poor crew


I will happily make joke(s) about accidents that everyone walks away from


Spent the day at Shoreham - scene of the Hawker Hunter crash a couple of years ago
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Colt Ward on 28 January 2019, 15:38:45
Looking at the weather, I have to wonder why they were even flying...

Training . . . while maybe not the best conditions, my bet would be they have not been flying in inclement weather the Soviet air force used to fly in.  And thus the bright idea of getting experience for the crew . . .
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Daryk on 28 January 2019, 17:46:47
If the learning objective was "don't fly in this weather", they nailed it...  xp
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Colt Ward on 28 January 2019, 17:56:00
*shrugs*  It may have been worse than they were expecting b/c the pilot/crew and ATC were not experienced in flying during that sort of weather.  It could also be while the plane CAN fly in that weather it should not be loaded to the point it could be in better conditions.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Daryk on 28 January 2019, 17:59:31
If both the air crew and the ATC were inexperienced, the one authorizing the training should be court martialed...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Feenix74 on 28 January 2019, 21:23:46
This is not the way to wash your Sky Crane https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-01-29/firefighting-water-bomber-helicopter-crashes-in-gippsland-dam/10757292 (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-01-29/firefighting-water-bomber-helicopter-crashes-in-gippsland-dam/10757292)

Luckily all three crewmembers made it out safely. All 6 Sky Cranes on firefighting duties here in Australia are grounded until investigation identifies the cause of the crash.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 30 January 2019, 10:58:10
An F-4 doing F-4 things.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: DoctorMonkey on 30 January 2019, 11:06:55
bad photo shop - where are the huge black smoke trails?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Colt Ward on 30 January 2019, 11:29:45
So . . . this is where Maverick's international communications came from?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: JadeHellbringer on 30 January 2019, 11:31:53
bad photo shop - where are the huge black smoke trails?

The enormous wash from those immense turboprops blew it away before it formed...?  ;D

(http://www.airvectors.net/avbear_13.jpg)

Now, how's THAT for a unique flight line?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Euphonium on 30 January 2019, 15:35:59
Now, how's THAT for a unique flight line?

For some reason I now have this crazy desire to see a Bear and a BUFF try to dogfight eachother! :))
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: DoctorMonkey on 30 January 2019, 15:38:27
For some reason I now have this crazy desire to see a Bear and a BUFF try to dogfight eachother! :))


if they get too close, they may accidentally have a Canberra
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Feenix74 on 01 February 2019, 04:40:02
Interesting article on a unique bird.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-02-01/sofia-flying-telescope-occultation-chasing-shadow-titan/10635802 (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-02-01/sofia-flying-telescope-occultation-chasing-shadow-titan/10635802)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Kidd on 01 February 2019, 05:28:29
Interesting article on a unique bird.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-02-01/sofia-flying-telescope-occultation-chasing-shadow-titan/10635802 (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-02-01/sofia-flying-telescope-occultation-chasing-shadow-titan/10635802)
Judging by the URL, it's the story of Sofia, a young consulting medium (or occultant, who does occultations) and pilots an aircraft equipped with state-of-the-art scopes ("EO/IR means Ectoplasmic Occult Interdimensional Receptors") on a mission to hunt the fabled Shadow Titan and stop it from unleashing Titanomachy 2.0
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: HobbesHurlbut on 01 February 2019, 17:50:05
With thanks to DoctorMonkey for that wiki Article.

Quote
Bomber Command's Operational Research Section (BC-ORS), analyzed a report of a survey carried out by RAF Bomber Command.[citation needed] For the survey, Bomber Command inspected all bombers returning from bombing raids over Germany over a particular period. All damage inflicted by German air defences was noted and the recommendation was given that armour be added in the most heavily damaged areas. This recommendation was not adopted because the fact that the aircraft returned with these areas damaged indicated these areas were not vital, and adding armour to non-vital areas where damage is acceptable negatively affects aircraft performance. Their suggestion to remove some of the crew so that an aircraft loss would result in fewer personnel losses, was also rejected by RAF command. Blackett's team made the logical recommendation that the armour be placed in the areas which were completely untouched by damage in the bombers which returned. They reasoned that the survey was biased, since it only included aircraft that returned to Britain. The untouched areas of returning aircraft were probably vital areas, which, if hit, would result in the loss of the aircraft.[20] This story has been disputed,[21] with a similar damage assessment study completed in the US by the Statistical Research Group at Columbia University[22] and was the result of work done by Abraham Wald[23].
The deduction was that the bombers that didn't make it back probably had taken damage to the areas that weren't touched on the surviving bombers.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: DoctorMonkey on 01 February 2019, 18:04:41
Every time I read that article, I want to do some operational research - it looks so fascinating
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: DaveMac on 04 February 2019, 10:32:12
For some reason I now have this crazy desire to see a Bear and a BUFF try to dogfight eachother! :))

I can offer you  a Liberator versus two FW 200s

https://www.airspacemag.com/military-aviation/wars-oddest-dogfight-180954663/

Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: PsihoKekec on 06 February 2019, 02:31:15
Murmansk military museum

(https://archive.fo/k7oAF/220fe464ed6c586a48f9797d7a4a0f26dc4394e6.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: marauder648 on 06 February 2019, 02:47:38
I know there was more than a few encounters with Sunderland flying boats and German aircraft in WW2 and one where a Sunderland fought of 8 x JU-88's whilst on patrol

http://ww2today.com/2nd-june-1943-battle-in-the-bay-sunderland-v-ju-88s
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: DaveMac on 06 February 2019, 05:13:35
I know there was more than a few encounters with Sunderland flying boats and German aircraft in WW2 and one where a Sunderland fought of 8 x JU-88's whilst on patrol

http://ww2today.com/2nd-june-1943-battle-in-the-bay-sunderland-v-ju-88s

In August of that year the same crew with replacements was lost over the Bay of Biscay in a fight with 6 JU 88s

No survivors
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Kidd on 06 February 2019, 06:51:50
In August of that year the same crew with replacements was lost over the Bay of Biscay in a fight with 6 JU 88s

No survivors
As a kid I read a fictionalised account of this, it was quite moving
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: marauder648 on 06 February 2019, 08:42:09
I saw that the RAF's finally retiring the Tornado and it will be fully retired by March this year after nearly 40 years of service.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Kidd on 06 February 2019, 08:54:36
High time. The torch has now been fully passed to the Typhoon.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: DaveMac on 07 February 2019, 03:19:48
P-39 in New Zealand

First engine runs two days ago

http://www.pioneeraero.co.nz/2019/02/05/p39-engine-run/

Personally I'm looking forward to their restoration of the only DH Sea Hornet left

http://www.pioneeraero.co.nz/project/sea-hornet-tt193/
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 07 February 2019, 04:45:28
They got her together!  Ah, I admit I have a terribly odd place in my heart for the P-39; it was a great design hobbled by some truly bad decisions but soldiered on well with the Soviets.  I wonder how it would have performed if they'd given it a real supercharger like the P-51 did with the Merlin engines.  The Allison 1710s really choked at high altitude, which was a shame because that 37mm would have eaten He-111s alive over Britain and done wonders on the flying boats in the Pacific.

"What could have been" I guess, alas.  At that point I suppose rearming them with Noodle 37mms falls on the wishlist as well as equipping them with a full brace of .50s...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: DaveMac on 08 February 2019, 03:14:00
They got her together!  Ah, I admit I have a terribly odd place in my heart for the P-39; it was a great design hobbled by some truly bad decisions but soldiered on well with the Soviets.  I wonder how it would have performed if they'd given it a real supercharger like the P-51 did with the Merlin engines.  The Allison 1710s really choked at high altitude, which was a shame because that 37mm would have eaten He-111s alive over Britain and done wonders on the flying boats in the Pacific.

"What could have been" I guess, alas.  At that point I suppose rearming them with Noodle 37mms falls on the wishlist as well as equipping them with a full brace of .50s...

The Q model had all .50s

https://www.nationalmuseum.af.mil/Visit/Museum-Exhibits/Fact-Sheets/Display/Article/196306/bell-p-39q-airacobra/

Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: truetanker on 09 February 2019, 21:01:38
Which airplane had the most 50s in World War II?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: CrossfirePilot on 09 February 2019, 21:07:10
Which airplane had the most 50s in World War II?


Probably the YB-40.  18 in all.  Though it didn't fly very many sorties.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_YB-40_Flying_Fortress
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Ghost0402 on 09 February 2019, 21:10:11
Which airplane had the most 50s in World War II?
Some B-25's carried 18 50 cal MG's.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: CrossfirePilot on 09 February 2019, 21:12:30
Which airplane had the most 50s in World War II?

If you focused just on fighters.  It would probably be the P 47.  8 in all.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: truetanker on 09 February 2019, 21:20:37
Can you imagine a flying formation with P 47 on CAP, escorting these?

TT
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: I am Belch II on 09 February 2019, 21:21:33
Some B-25's carried 18 50 cal MG's.

8 in the nose 4 on side packs and a turret that could be turned front for a total of 14. Quite a lot of firepower sticking out of the nose on that plane.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: CrossfirePilot on 09 February 2019, 21:29:17
I have liked the B-25H since I made a Balsa wood model of it in 5th grade.  Though I think that it would have been better to have something like a 40mm revolver cannon instead of a breechloading 75mm.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: HobbesHurlbut on 09 February 2019, 21:41:31
I have liked the B-25H since I made a Balsa wood model of it in 5th grade.  Though I think that it would have been better to have something like a 40mm revolver cannon instead of a breechloading 75mm.
Wasn't 75mm picked for more firepower against ships?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Easy on 09 February 2019, 21:53:59
cleanup
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Ruger on 09 February 2019, 23:00:31
F-86 Saber had six. Some MiGs they fought only had only three guns. Two light caliber and a big honking bomber-killer.

Most of the early MiG's (specifically MiG-9's, 15's, and 17's) were fitted with two 23 mm and one 37 mm autocannons...not exactly light armament...

Now the early prop-driven MiG's of WW2 did have lighter payloads...

Ruger
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Dave Talley on 09 February 2019, 23:17:18
Wasn't 75mm picked for more firepower against ships?

yep
and iirc they were simply 75mm howitzers, altered from pack models,
so the 40mm would have been a little better in armor busting but
these guys were ship hunting, a 75mm howitzer shell puts a decent hole in
 a freighters side, plus these guys still tended to have 6-8 50 cals in the nose or alongside to shred the decks on most boats
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 09 February 2019, 23:28:14
The Soviets built bomber-killers, for good reason.  They knew what the Americans could do and just how many freakin B-29s (and followups) there were for PVO Strany to deal with.  They'd been building cannon into fighters since before WWII, and just got bigger and bigger over time.

The Americans tried to switch up to cannon as well, with the 20mm Hispano being the big choice, but did it with oversized chambers and could never make the thing reliable because of it...even after the Brits pointed out the difference between theirs and ours.  We never did fix the thing properly, and so we just went with massed .50s and were freakin married to them until the Colt Mk 12s, and then the M61 with the Starfighter.

Also some of the German warbirds were pretty scary in their own right, like the FW-190 D11 carrying four 20mm and two 30mm cannon onboard...gives the Chain Lightning version of the P-38's quad-37mm cannons a run for its money.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: I am Belch II on 10 February 2019, 10:08:18
The 75mm was the same gun used off the Grant/Sherman early tanks. It was a light weight version that went later on to be used to the M24 Chaffee tank. It was manual loading so the rate of fire was quite low, you could get 2 or 3 shots in a attack.

Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Dave Talley on 10 February 2019, 12:10:05
The 75mm was the same gun used off the Grant/Sherman early tanks. It was a light weight version that went later on to be used to the M24 Chaffee tank. It was manual loading so the rate of fire was quite low, you could get 2 or 3 shots in a attack.
h

ok wasnt positive on that and too lazy to look it up last night,
I do remember seeing a video showing the bombadier/gunner on his knees
reloading and shoving the new shell in, other than kneeling he at least seemed to have
less movement restrictions than a sherman gunner


edit, ok not the same layout, but heres a vid
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cEek5IvGYKg
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Luciora on 10 February 2019, 12:38:01
 From a Rand McNally 1981 edition, WW2 fighter gun lists.  Might be a bit inaccurate though since it's an old printing.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Feenix74 on 10 February 2019, 23:26:15
I will not post the link to the auction (because of rules) but there is an auction here in Australia to dispose of 22 Bell "Kiowa" 206B-1 helicopter that were formerly operated by the Australian Army.

So if you have always wanted to own your own ex-military helicopter . . .

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e0/Bell_OH-58_Kiowa%2C_Australia_-_Army_JP525607.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: DaveMac on 11 February 2019, 04:35:33
Which airplane had the most 50s in World War II?

Not all .50s but the Sunderland flying boat had fourteen guns in total:

Rear turret with four .30
Dorsal turret with two .303
Pair of .303 on either side of the fuselage firing from ports just below and behind the wings, later upgraded to 0.5
Front turret with two .303 and four fixed .303 in nose

Hence the nickname Flying Porcupine  ;D

PBY Privateer had 12 .50s in six power operated turrets (two dorsal, two waist, nose and tail

Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: hoosierhick on 11 February 2019, 10:01:05
Not all .50s but the Sunderland flying boat had fourteen guns in total:

Rear turret with four .30
Dorsal turret with two .303
Pair of .303 on either side of the fuselage firing from ports just below and behind the wings, later upgraded to 0.5
Front turret with two .303 and four fixed .303 in nose

Hence the nickname Flying Porcupine  ;D

PBY Privateer had 12 .50s in six power operated turrets (two dorsal, two waist, nose and tail

PB4Y Privateer.  The PBY was the Catalina.  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: JadeHellbringer on 11 February 2019, 13:23:20
Beautifully showing why the switch to Army/Air Force-style designations was such a welcome thing for the postwar Navy.  ;D
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 11 February 2019, 16:24:27
Well, there's always the first-gen Vought biplane fighter that the Navy bought...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: hoosierhick on 11 February 2019, 16:52:56
Beautifully showing why the switch to Army/Air Force-style designations was such a welcome thing for the postwar Navy.  ;D

I almost said PB2Y.  I had forgot about the Coronado flying boat and didn't realize there was another one between that and the Privateer.

The Navy system mostly made sense, because you could tell what type of plane and who made it at a glance.  Things got muddled when companies merged or when letters were reused from companies went out of business.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: marauder648 on 12 February 2019, 12:36:34
Never heard of this until now, the lil fighters look like something from Battletech

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=drnxZlS9gyw
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Fat Guy on 12 February 2019, 13:43:22
You think that's nuts? How about Lockheed's proposed CL 1201?

(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_8DAL7gPYBiM/TBEathHBOSI/AAAAAAAAAYU/V0dhtqcVR5w/s1600/CL1201.jpg)

A Nuclear-powered aircraft with a wing span of 1,120 feet, carrying up to 22 fighter aircraft externally and had an internal dock capable of handling two air-to-ground shuttle transport aircraft. Just to take off it would have required 182 additional vertical lift engines.    ::)

 
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 12 February 2019, 14:36:01
Didn't GI Joe have a playset of a giant jet that could launch smaller aircraft?  I know there was the Cobra Blackbird with a smaller piggyback fighter, but I think there was another one that carried an internal fighter.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: chanman on 12 February 2019, 14:45:58
You think that's nuts? How about Lockheed's proposed CL 1201?

(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_8DAL7gPYBiM/TBEathHBOSI/AAAAAAAAAYU/V0dhtqcVR5w/s1600/CL1201.jpg)

A Nuclear-powered aircraft with a wing span of 1,120 feet, carrying up to 22 fighter aircraft externally and had an internal dock capable of handling two air-to-ground shuttle transport aircraft. Just to take off it would have required 182 additional vertical lift engines.    ::)

I always find those mega projects hilarious because you knew that management/marketing/artists drew them up first and worried about the practicalities never
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 12 February 2019, 15:21:12
Physics?  What's that?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: hoosierhick on 12 February 2019, 16:12:13
You think that's nuts? How about Lockheed's proposed CL 1201?

(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_8DAL7gPYBiM/TBEathHBOSI/AAAAAAAAAYU/V0dhtqcVR5w/s1600/CL1201.jpg)

A Nuclear-powered aircraft with a wing span of 1,120 feet, carrying up to 22 fighter aircraft externally and had an internal dock capable of handling two air-to-ground shuttle transport aircraft. Just to take off it would have required 182 additional vertical lift engines.    ::)

Early concept for SHEILD's Zephyr 1?   ;)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Istal_Devalis on 12 February 2019, 18:19:44
Which airplane had the most 50s in World War II?
Theoretically or in practice?
The A-26 Invader could carry up to 22 .50 cals depending on the model and configuration.


Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: chanman on 12 February 2019, 18:38:20
Which airplane had the most 50s in World War II?

Probably a C-54. At around 14 tonnes of cargo, it could probably fit a couple hundred M3s by weight. Not sure if the volume would work out though.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: I am Belch II on 13 February 2019, 08:18:08
It dont count for WW2 but when the A-26 Invaders turned into the B-26 and was used in Vietnam War had up to 20, with 8 in the nose, 8 in pods under the wings, and 2 turrets with 2 in each.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: grimlock1 on 13 February 2019, 11:41:51
Didn't GI Joe have a playset of a giant jet that could launch smaller aircraft?  I know there was the Cobra Blackbird with a smaller piggyback fighter, but I think there was another one that carried an internal fighter.
The Defiant (https://www.yojoe.com/vehicles/87/defiant/), part of which was recolored and released as the Crusader (https://www.yojoe.com/vehicles/89/crusader/) with a recolor of the mini fighter from the Cobra Night Raven.

Then there was the Condor Z25 (https://www.yojoe.com/vehicles/89/condor/).  ::Sigh:: Where it would split in two from the middle and the back half would have to flip 180 degrees to keep flying...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: HobbesHurlbut on 13 February 2019, 12:07:48
wow that Condor Z25 was really wacky.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: I am Belch II on 13 February 2019, 12:31:33
Here is the more real life application of that Condor Z2 the Mighty SR-71 and D-21 drone.

I dont think it was ever used operationally.

Another conversation at work with ideas for our hanger at work....need more planes worked. Hang the planes from the top of the hanger.
A photo from the USS Lexington in 1941

Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: grimlock1 on 13 February 2019, 16:22:49
I thought the D-21 launched off an A-12 variant, not an SR-71 variant.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: hoosierhick on 13 February 2019, 16:59:25
I thought the D-21 launched off an A-12 variant, not an SR-71 variant.

It did, the M-21.  I think the surviving M-21 is in the Museum of Flight in Seattle with a D-21 on it's back.  I do remember something about an experiment NASA did with their SR-71 in the 90's where they were mounting the experiment to the back of the SR-71 and had pulled some parts off the M-21 to make it work.  Then again, this is probably all just splitting hairs seeing how the SR-71 is also a A-12 variant.   ;D
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: grimlock1 on 13 February 2019, 22:34:10
It did, the M-21.  I think the surviving M-21 is in the Museum of Flight in Seattle with a D-21 on it's back.  I do remember something about an experiment NASA did with their SR-71 in the 90's where they were mounting the experiment to the back of the SR-71 and had pulled some parts off the M-21 to make it work.  Then again, this is probably all just splitting hairs seeing how the SR-71 is also a A-12 variant.   ;D
Eh...
The SR is an A-12 variant the same way the F/A-18E is a Hornet variant. 
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: chanman on 13 February 2019, 22:37:26
Considering the small numbers of Blackbirds made (all variants) and their production method (essentially hand-made customs like the Saturn Vs), they're more like examples of a ship class where there are going to be inevitable (sometimes quite major) changes between individual hulls.

IIRC pilot accounts are that each airframe flew just a bit differently, as you would expect considering their individual nature.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: glitterboy2098 on 14 February 2019, 01:33:48
It did, the M-21.  I think the surviving M-21 is in the Museum of Flight in Seattle with a D-21 on it's back.  I do remember something about an experiment NASA did with their SR-71 in the 90's where they were mounting the experiment to the back of the SR-71 and had pulled some parts off the M-21 to make it work.  Then again, this is probably all just splitting hairs seeing how the SR-71 is also a A-12 variant.   ;D

the M-21 was destroyed during the D-21 test launches, which was part of the reason all the later launchers were done using a B-52 and a booster rocket. (during the 4th launch test [which was a straight and level 'mission profile' launch rather than from an outside loop like the previous 3], the D-21 suffered engine failure and collided with the M-12, resulting in the M-12 breaking up in mid air. the crew ejected, but the launch control officer drowned due to a suit leak.)

an unflown backup that had been converted is what is on display in Seattle.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Feenix74 on 14 February 2019, 03:55:20
(https://airwaysmag.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/qantas-airbus-a380-800-680x365_c.jpg)

Airbus announce that they will cease production of the A380 as of 2021 after fulfilling the remaining outstanding orders for the super jumbo. QANTAS recently announced that they were cancelling the final 8 A380 from the order of 20 that they had originally placed.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: I am Belch II on 14 February 2019, 07:18:27
(https://airwaysmag.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/qantas-airbus-a380-800-680x365_c.jpg)

Airbus announce that they will cease production of the A380 as of 2021 after fulfilling the remaining outstanding orders for the super jumbo. QANTAS recently announced that they were cancelling the final 8 A380 from the order of 20 that they had originally placed.

They only have 17 left to build. 14 from Emerties Airlines and 3 to ANA. Sad day for big planes, now everything is twin engines for long range people movement.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: hoosierhick on 14 February 2019, 09:13:07
Eh...
The SR is an A-12 variant the same way the F/A-18E is a Hornet variant.

Huh...I thought the SR-71 had a different fuselage forward of the wing and was heavier than the A-12 but the aft fuselage and wings were the same.  Thanks.

Edit: Glitterboy, thanks for the info on what's in Seattle.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 14 February 2019, 09:35:03
Something I just ran across that struck me as just a little odd.  A ferry flight?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Colt Ward on 14 February 2019, 10:11:11
Crusaders carrying AIM-120?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Ghost0402 on 14 February 2019, 10:16:37
Crusaders carrying AIM-120?
They look like HARM. 
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Colt Ward on 14 February 2019, 10:18:27
Just knew they were bigger than the Sidewinders and trying to think of what was 'new' so Crusaders might have had to ferry . . . but didn't Crusaders get Wild Weasel role for a bit?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Kidd on 14 February 2019, 10:20:47
Crusaders carrying AIM-120?
This is the F8 after all; think a little older, gentlemen. AIM-7 Sparrows.

Not an extraordinary fit for the Crusaders.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Colt Ward on 14 February 2019, 10:26:15
Yeah, I know they were the F/A-18 of their generation . . . guess a date with the pic would help.  This looks like a refueling over desert mountains, Red Flag?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Ghost0402 on 14 February 2019, 10:26:52
This is the F8 after all; think a little older, gentlemen. AIM-7 Sparrows.

Not an extraordinary fit for the Crusaders.
Crusaders had pointy noses.  Those are A-7's

A-7 is very stubby while the F-8 is longer.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Kidd on 14 February 2019, 10:32:14
Crusaders had pointy noses.  Those are A-7's

A-7 is very stubby while the F-8 is longer.
Ah right. Pointy vs stubby. I'll remember that.

Was never really a fan of these "look at my big mouth" types
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: worktroll on 14 February 2019, 10:33:10
Also, the picture lacks evidence of the variable incidence wing the Crusader had.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Colt Ward on 14 February 2019, 10:42:34
Crusaders had pointy noses.  Those are A-7's

A-7 is very stubby while the F-8 is longer.

Which was throwing the scale off for me then.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: grimlock1 on 14 February 2019, 11:13:00
Huh...I thought the SR-71 had a different fuselage forward of the wing and was heavier than the A-12 but the aft fuselage and wings were the same.  Thanks.

Edit: Glitterboy, thanks for the info on what's in Seattle.
You were right.  I didn't use the proper sarcasm font.  The Navy pulled a little slight of hand with Congress. The Super Hornet is almost a whole new plane that happens to look a LOT like a Hornet, except it's noticeably bigger.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: worktroll on 14 February 2019, 11:32:43
See also Tu-22, Tu-22M:

(http://www.airvectors.net/avtu22_08.jpg)

(http://www.airwar.ru/image/idop/bomber/tu22m3/tu22m3-2.jpg)

Same technique, different budget ;) Any other similar "upgrade" examples come to mind?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Ghost0402 on 14 February 2019, 11:37:41
F/A-18C vs the E/F models.  B-1B is very different from the B-1A but not that different.  Aircraft usually don't get that radical a rebuild before it is designated something else.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Van Gogh on 14 February 2019, 12:09:57
The Mirage III (area ruling, single engine, advanced -for 1960- all-weather avionics...) is a very different plane from the prototype Mirage I with its pair of anemic engines coupled with a rocket for fast daylight interception of bombers, and nothing else.
But look! Almost the same shape with a delta wing! Totally the same thing! Honest!
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Kidd on 14 February 2019, 13:16:12
Even on the same airframe, systems and upgrades make a big difference.

Stock F-16 and a F-16i or F-16v is waaaay different.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: hoosierhick on 14 February 2019, 14:07:03
Navy A-7s and those do look like HARMs.  The refueling basket must be hiding behind the fairing between the fins on the boom in the tanker.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 14 February 2019, 15:32:58
Navy A-7s, yes, though I thought they were AIM-7Fs - the visual profile is almost spot-on the same.  Definitely AGM-88s, though.  The idea of Sparrows on an aircraft that only had terrain-following radar and no air-intercept capability was really odd, hence my thought of ferry flights perhaps.  Forgot about the HARMs.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Euphonium on 14 February 2019, 22:15:52
Something I just ran across that struck me as just a little odd.  A ferry flight?

The think that strikes me as odd is the attempt to refuel.

That looks like a USAF boom trying to mate with a USN probe - isn't that trying to match two male connectors rather than a male and a female?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Ghost0402 on 14 February 2019, 23:13:01
The think that strikes me as odd is the attempt to refuel.

That looks like a USAF boom trying to mate with a USN probe - isn't that trying to match two male connectors rather than a male and a female?
They have a refueling basket on whatever that aircraft that is that can be used on USN aircraft.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Feenix74 on 15 February 2019, 00:33:29
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/18/US_Navy_041101-N-3799S-001_An_F-A-18F_Super_Hornet_and_an_F-A-18C_Hornet_conducts_in-flight_refueling_from_a_U.S._Air_Force_KC-135_Stratotanker_assigned_to_the_Alaska_Air_National_Guard.jpg)

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/81/US_Navy_050516-N-6694B-003_An_F-A-18C_Hornet%2C_assigned_to_the_Argonauts_of_Strike_Fighter_Squadron_One_Four_Seven_%28VFA-147%29%2C_receives_fuel_from_the_refueling_boom_of_a_U.S._Air_Force_KC-135_Stratotanke.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Kidd on 15 February 2019, 02:23:09
US SOCOM on exercises

(https://i.postimg.cc/nrP3v1X9/q-60-url-https-s3-amazonaws-com-the-drive-staging-message-edi.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 15 February 2019, 02:26:24
I feel like everyone in that helicopter should be wearing rubber noses and enormous shoes.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: hoosierhick on 15 February 2019, 11:31:14
Navy A-7s, yes, though I thought they were AIM-7Fs - the visual profile is almost spot-on the same.  Definitely AGM-88s, though.  The idea of Sparrows on an aircraft that only had terrain-following radar and no air-intercept capability was really odd, hence my thought of ferry flights perhaps.  Forgot about the HARMs.

Did the A-7 have terrain following radar?

That wouldn't be the weirdest thing they ever put AIM-7s on.  ;D

(https://i.imgur.com/OPfUebM.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 15 February 2019, 11:47:58
AN/APQ 116 or 126 for later models, yeah.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Kidd on 15 February 2019, 11:56:05
Did the A-7 have terrain following radar?

That wouldn't be the weirdest thing they ever put AIM-7s on.  ;D

(https://i.imgur.com/OPfUebM.jpg)
Dat caption, hahaha!

What are missile-carrying ferry flights for?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: grimlock1 on 15 February 2019, 12:01:17
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/18/US_Navy_041101-N-3799S-001_An_F-A-18F_Super_Hornet_and_an_F-A-18C_Hornet_conducts_in-flight_refueling_from_a_U.S._Air_Force_KC-135_Stratotanker_assigned_to_the_Alaska_Air_National_Guard.jpg)

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/81/US_Navy_050516-N-6694B-003_An_F-A-18C_Hornet%2C_assigned_to_the_Argonauts_of_Strike_Fighter_Squadron_One_Four_Seven_%28VFA-147%29%2C_receives_fuel_from_the_refueling_boom_of_a_U.S._Air_Force_KC-135_Stratotanke.jpg)
Is there any quick way to get the drogue off the boom?  In case an Air Force plane has an emergency and needs gas?

Did the A-7 have terrain following radar?

That wouldn't be the weirdest thing they ever put AIM-7s on.  ;D

(https://i.imgur.com/OPfUebM.jpg)
The base museum at NAWS China Lake had a room dedicated to the AIM-9 and everything derived from it.  There was one display case, maybe 6 feet long, 4 shelves, packed with a model of every air frame that had ever fired a Sidewinder, as of 2011. The title was, "You can shoot a Sidewinder off just about anything."  The included various MiGs and Suhkois that would fire AA-2s.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Colt Ward on 15 February 2019, 12:03:46
What are missile-carrying ferry flights for?

Basically to get them where they need to be from storage.  Your also talking about ready missiles rather than shipped containers.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Weirdo on 15 February 2019, 12:06:03
Probably safer in transit, too. You got a problem, you can just dump the missile. Not so much when it's packed in a C-130's cargo bay.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Kidd on 15 February 2019, 12:49:36
Basically to get them where they need to be from storage.  Your also talking about ready missiles rather than shipped containers.
Why would that happen? Wouldn't the, uh, end user have armourers who can get them ready from shipping mode to ready-use?

Seems damned inefficient, so I'm sure it's not the usual means of transport.


The included various MiGs and Suhkois that would fire AA-2s.
Wonder how that works.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Colt Ward on 15 February 2019, 12:59:34
Why would that happen? Wouldn't the, uh, end user have armourers who can get them ready from shipping mode to ready-use?

Seems damned inefficient, so I'm sure it's not the usual means of transport.

Sure its inefficient . . . its a emergency use.  For instance, we even do that with full up fighters and bombers.  Sometimes they are shipped in crates on a slow boat, other times they are flown by ferry pilots where they are handed over as replacements (WWII, IIRC they used some female pilots for this).  USAF's transport planes have set schedules and cargos planned months and in some cases years in advance.  But if you suddenly have a bad batch of ordnance- say testing revealed the seals on the warheads for production run numbers 100400 through 100420 had been faulty and ocean air (which means water & salt) could have been exposed to the batteries & circuits of the warheads.  Those missiles are put back into the magazines for recovery . . . but now you are 20 missiles short of your warload and its a weakness in the carrier's perspective abilities.  You MIGHT have some spares aboard the UNREP ships, but a lot of that is fuel & food.  The carrier can land small cargo planes, but they are not going to be able to shuffle what is coming in on those too much and you have to load them from somewhere and trans-ship them.

But the carrier is in range of a USN Air Station.  So instead of throwing out the cargo schedule for those small transports that can land on carriers, you just send a flight of planes with them bolted on and carrying tanks . . . they land, unload the missiles to the waiting grapes (I think those are the ord guys), and fly back to the NAS.  Carrier got its missiles . . . NAS pilots got flying time and can add another carrier landing to their logbooks . . . and the transport schedule which is planned months and even years in advanced did not get bumped.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Kidd on 15 February 2019, 13:26:15

Okay thanks.

But I thought in such a case the nearest NAS would pull a few missiles out of the depot, load up a COD, then fly that to the carrier and let their armourers do the work of spinning them up or whatever.

And all that just to get a handful of Sparrows/Sidewinders out in quick time. I thought a carrier would have plenty of munitions on board.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Weirdo on 15 February 2019, 13:43:28
They usually do. Flights like this are when shit happens.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: worktroll on 15 February 2019, 13:52:47
I believe it's usual that actual combat consumption - ammo, parts, etc - is usually several times the rate peacetime accountants allow for. A combination of "Oh **** fire!", and "Kill it with fire!", methinks.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Colt Ward on 15 February 2019, 14:18:30
Okay thanks.

But I thought in such a case the nearest NAS would pull a few missiles out of the depot, load up a COD, then fly that to the carrier and let their armourers do the work of spinning them up or whatever.

And all that just to get a handful of Sparrows/Sidewinders out in quick time. I thought a carrier would have plenty of munitions on board.

The Sidewinders maybe live, but if you are ferrying they may not be- for instance as mentioned the aircraft doing the ferrying may not be capable but can load them on the universal mount.  Also, like I said, the COD's cargo space maybe spoken for months in advance.  The guys who plan world-wide logistics plans juggle things like you would not believe- look up what happens when we use the C-5s, etc, to go to world-wide disaster relief.  Do not overlook the force readiness benefit of pilots getting flight time and carrier landings in their log book either.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Feenix74 on 15 February 2019, 17:08:10
Is there any quick way to get the drogue off the boom?  In case an Air Force plane has an emergency and needs gas?

I do not believe so, the KC-135 flying boom can be field converted to a probe-and-drogue system using the special adapter unit. In this configuration, the tanker retains the boom, but has a hose/drogue at the end of it instead of the usual nozzle. However, upgraded KC-135 and KC-10 as well as the RAAF operated KC-30A are configured with two hose/drogue units on the wings and the centreline boom to allow for both types of refuelling.

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/9a/Boeing_KC-135R_Multipoint_Refueling.JPEG/1024px-Boeing_KC-135R_Multipoint_Refueling.JPEG)

(http://www.adf-serials.com.au/gallery3/var/albums/Airbus-KC-30A/KC30A06.jpg?m=1491040232)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Daryk on 15 February 2019, 17:27:41
Colt: grapes do fuel... Ordies wear red...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Colt Ward on 15 February 2019, 17:29:21
Yeah, I figured it was not right its been a while since I looked closely at current carrier ops.  I used to know a guy who was a deck hand, told me the nicknames for the colors and made Fruit of the Loom jokes.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Daryk on 15 February 2019, 17:45:45
Heh... alliteration is easier... "grapes do gas"... :)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Feenix74 on 20 February 2019, 00:28:52
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-02-20/bored-adelaide-pilot-leaves-message-on-flight-radar/10829262 (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-02-20/bored-adelaide-pilot-leaves-message-on-flight-radar/10829262)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 20 February 2019, 11:09:57
A for effort, man, that's some great kerning and cap height.

Also slightly technically NSFW though the article doesn't mention that part of the flight path.  Australia, never change.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Kidd on 20 February 2019, 19:14:40
Indeed, looks like they're trying hard to downplay the dicks.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: DaveMac on 22 February 2019, 07:56:08
Sheffield flypast pays tribute to US airmen killed in wartime crash

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/feb/22/man-who-tended-mi-amigo-memorial-for-75-years-watches-flypast-wwii-us-pilots

Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: chanman on 23 February 2019, 11:44:11
Handley Page HP.115 research aircraft

(https://i.redd.it/d4jxfproz3t01.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Daryk on 23 February 2019, 11:53:18
I suppose if you're iffy about the engine staying in one piece, that might be a good place to put it...  ^-^
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Colt Ward on 23 February 2019, 17:09:03
I suppose if you're iffy about the engine staying in one piece, that might be a good place to put it...  ^-^

What?  Its a cross between a V-1 Rocket and a paper airplane?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Sabelkatten on 23 February 2019, 17:54:54
Low-speed supercruise delta wing research aircraft according to Wikipedia (how silly did that sound? :D ).

Built to figure out how the Concorde's wing could be built to keep the plane in the air at low speed. ~70 knots stall speed with that wing!
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Daryk on 23 February 2019, 17:59:55
I was just referring to how much fuselage was between the engine and cockpit.  And yes, "low-speed supercruise" does sound silly! :)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: truetanker on 23 February 2019, 20:29:32
I read that the company that makes  AKs are making drones. KYB-UAV...

Wow... what's  next? BOLOs?

TT
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: chanman on 24 February 2019, 13:32:50
Mirage III and Mirage IV next to each other:

(https://www.dassault-aviation.com/wp-content/blogs.dir/2/files/2018/06/DA00008805_Si.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Daryk on 24 February 2019, 13:41:15
Is that a bigger difference than the Hornet/Super Hornet?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Bren on 24 February 2019, 14:41:08
Big time.

(https://i.stack.imgur.com/fmr6B.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Daryk on 24 February 2019, 15:08:31
Wow, no kidding!  Thanks for digging that up!  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: chanman on 24 February 2019, 15:32:05
The 70's, amirite?

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d7/Boeing_747-217B_C-FCRA_CP_TOR_270775_edited-2.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Bedwyr on 24 February 2019, 15:54:35
Oh man. Here's a recce challenge. Is that a -100 or a -200? I cannot think of any way to distinguish from the outside. The engines are different, but don't they use the same shroud? And the upper deck windows vary all over the place after Boeing realized the whole lounge idea was going to give way to more seats, I believe.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Feenix74 on 24 February 2019, 18:13:56
A B737-100 was 94ft (28.65m) long, carried 115 passengers and had an MTOW of 42,411Kgs. There were only ever 30 B737-100s built.

A B737-200 was has an extended fuselage with two sections; a 36in section forward of the wing and a 40in section aft of the wing (all other dimensions remained the same) giving a maximum capacity of 130 passengers and a MTOW of 49,440kgs.

My goog-fu and wikipedia indicates that CP Air only operated B737-200, so that should be a B737-200 in the photo.

Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 24 February 2019, 19:17:37
Weren't the operating the 737-200 specifically because it came with the rough-field capability?  Pressurized air blowers in front of the engines to keep FOD clear of the turbines, and some reinforcements to the landing gear, were part of the package.  There's still a batch of OG -200s with original low-bypass turbofans doing their thing up there with those kits.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: chanman on 24 February 2019, 19:32:01
The photo is from 1975, so it should predate the CFM56 high bypass fans
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: I am Belch II on 24 February 2019, 20:27:16
I never thought the mirage 4 was that large but really neat to see the both together.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Bedwyr on 24 February 2019, 22:50:45
A B737-100 was 94ft (28.65m) long, carried 115 passengers and had an MTOW of 42,411Kgs. There were only ever 30 B737-100s built.

A B737-200 was has an extended fuselage with two sections; a 36in section forward of the wing and a 40in section aft of the wing (all other dimensions remained the same) giving a maximum capacity of 130 passengers and a MTOW of 49,440kgs.

My goog-fu and wikipedia indicates that CP Air only operated B737-200, so that should be a B737-200 in the photo.

I was talking about the 747.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Feenix74 on 25 February 2019, 01:03:24
My apologies, my goog-fu indicates that the Boeing 747 operated by CP Air with the registration C-FCRA was a -200 (a Boeing 747-217B with serial no. 20801).
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: I am Belch II on 25 February 2019, 04:59:28
Speaking of going retro. Here is a British Airways retro 747. They are painting 4 airplanes retro...here is the first one.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: marauder648 on 25 February 2019, 05:37:37
Not technically an aircraft but still, Project Pluto was bonkers

https://imgur.com/tZp0Qu4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZHONQAMV48
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Kidd on 25 February 2019, 09:57:20
From Harrier Preservation twitter @HPresevation (sic)

May 14 2009, Harrier GR.9A ZG478 of 1 squadron skids down the runway at Kandahar airbase as its pilot ejects.

(https://i.postimg.cc/fb57n24D/D0-K0-Huf-X4-AEjs-Zq.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: HobbesHurlbut on 25 February 2019, 10:05:15
Oh I see he had ordninance on his plane, I can see why he wanted to ejected.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Colt Ward on 25 February 2019, 10:27:54
Yeah, GTFO moment for sure.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Daryk on 25 February 2019, 17:23:45
I just hope the chair got him high enough for his parachute to do some good.  The angle doesn't look promising...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Feenix74 on 25 February 2019, 18:01:21
The AV-8B Harrier IIs use a zero-zero ejection seat, so in theory it has been designed to be able to get the pilot to safety in that situation but there are always variables that are hard to account for during design . . .
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Bren on 26 February 2019, 01:42:25
Sierra-Mountains

(https://i0.wp.com/theaviationist.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/F-35-in-Sierra-Mountains-top.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: chanman on 26 February 2019, 02:14:53
Oh I see he had ordninance on his plane, I can see why he wanted to ejected.

Yeah, suddenly remembering that there are hundreds of pounds of high explosive, not to mention the external fuel tanks would get me to ejection ASAP too!
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: I am Belch II on 26 February 2019, 04:56:38
That is a great picture of the Lighting II playing in the snow.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: JarheadEd on 26 February 2019, 18:30:42
I just hope the chair got him high enough for his parachute to do some good.  The angle doesn't look promising...

Here's the video. Good seat, good chute, good God that must have sucked.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bqOhssDZ00Y

Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Daryk on 26 February 2019, 18:46:42
Glad to hear it, thanks!  :thumbsup:

Looks like he came in a bit hard, and waited until he could see the flames before punching out.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Feenix74 on 27 February 2019, 00:32:15
Some background reading on ejecting from an aircraft https://www.popularmechanics.com/military/aviation/a26193/how-pilots-eject-from-fighter-jet/ (https://www.popularmechanics.com/military/aviation/a26193/how-pilots-eject-from-fighter-jet/)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: chanman on 27 February 2019, 00:52:51
Some background reading on ejecting from an aircraft https://www.popularmechanics.com/military/aviation/a26193/how-pilots-eject-from-fighter-jet/ (https://www.popularmechanics.com/military/aviation/a26193/how-pilots-eject-from-fighter-jet/)

I'm sure part of the process is learning that you can in fact void your bowels multiple times
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 27 February 2019, 06:30:41
I've heard that some pilots that had to eject ended up as much as an inch shorter; the violence causing some permanent spinal compression.  Again, beats the pants off riding it down, but still.

And then there's the incredibly fortunate Lt. Keith Gallagher.
(http://www.gallagherstory.com/ejection_seat/photos/A6_Landing_LT_Gallagher_1.jpg)
http://www.gallagherstory.com/ejection_seat/index.htm

It's really a fascinating read, and the site linked above has radio comms from the incident recorded.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Feenix74 on 27 February 2019, 07:07:32
The permanent spinal compression is a thing.

(https://ih0.redbubble.net/image.15598125.4611/flat,550x550,075,f.jpg)

The other one is that for certain aircraft types (eg Pilatus PC-9), if you are over a certain height then it is likely that your knees will hit the dashboard when you eject and you are at risk of being amputated at the knees.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: PsihoKekec on 27 February 2019, 07:50:40
I know an Air Force pilot who was quite livid about it. Apparently they changed the specifications so the ejection seats would better fit smaller pilots and as result they became problematic for tall pilot, thus if he applied for pilot training today he would have been rejected due to his height.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: I am Belch II on 27 February 2019, 08:39:17
Wow such a great story.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: DoctorMonkey on 27 February 2019, 11:02:38
Here's the video. Good seat, good chute, good God that must have sucked.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bqOhssDZ00Y (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bqOhssDZ00Y)




Wow, I can see why he chose to pull the lever! (the pilot was a "he" weren't they?)


I have met a German Air Force (West German) pilot (retired) who had his flying career ended by punching out of a Starfighter, I guess the balance to the end of a career is that you get to enjoy it rather than having a very very brief post-crash career impersonating a hamburger.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Kidd on 27 February 2019, 11:09:42

Wow, I can see why he chose to pull the lever! (the pilot was a "he" weren't they?)

There's an interesting writeup here, not sure about veracity: https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/wiki.php?id=60101

Quote
Narrative:
After an uneventful two aircraft sortie their landing back at Kandahar, Afghanistan was held off by ten minutes due to a busy circuit. When cleared to land ATC requested an expedite landing and runway clearance due to heavy traffic.

The wingman landed first due to low fuel but received a hostile missile alert and released flares. ZG478's turn onto finals was too short and 6,500ft higher than normal. Throughout the approach the rate of descent was too high and 'Hover Stop' was selected in an attempt to correct this.

At 180ft full power was selected but the tail struck the ground 30ft from the threshold. The outriggers and main undercarriage collapsed as did the nose wheel when the aircraft pitched forward. The under wing stores (bombs, rockets, recce pod, targeting pod and drop tanks) caught fire as it slid along the runway for 4,000ft. During the slide the pilot turned the aircraft away from a formation of four aircraft waiting to take off then ejected as it slowed down, but before it came to a stop. The fire spread to engulf the whole aircraft

Fair play to the pilot for that
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 27 February 2019, 20:39:03
On the topic of ejections, has there been any mention of the F-35's big helmet?  I know they were having troubles early on with the weight of it causing injuries on catapult launches, I can only imagine how it might cause problems in a bailout.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Cannonshop on 27 February 2019, 20:57:26
On the topic of ejections, has there been any mention of the F-35's big helmet?  I know they were having troubles early on with the weight of it causing injuries on catapult launches, I can only imagine how it might cause problems in a bailout.

editing out the unfair statement.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Kidd on 27 February 2019, 22:12:36
On the topic of ejections, has there been any mention of the F-35's big helmet?  I know they were having troubles early on with the weight of it causing injuries on catapult launches, I can only imagine how it might cause problems in a bailout.
Believe they fixed it some time back with a better headrest or summat.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: glitterboy2098 on 27 February 2019, 23:10:26
they are also working on a lighter version. no idea if it is in use yet.
https://defensesystems.com/articles/2017/05/18/f35.aspx
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Cannonshop on 27 February 2019, 23:26:46
they are also working on a lighter version. no idea if it is in use yet.
https://defensesystems.com/articles/2017/05/18/f35.aspx

That's a natural progression though-reducing pilot fatigue is a GOOD THING.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Fat Guy on 27 February 2019, 23:32:42
The permanent spinal compression is a thing.

(https://ih0.redbubble.net/image.15598125.4611/flat,550x550,075,f.jpg)

The other one is that for certain aircraft types (eg Pilatus PC-9), if you are over a certain height then it is likely that your knees will hit the dashboard when you eject and you are at risk of being amputated at the knees.


The stable of aircraft at Test Pilot School here in the US includes a two seat MiG-15. Anyone flying in it has to sign a waiver because the ejection seats will cause permenant back injuries if used.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 28 February 2019, 00:58:38
I imagine so.  I hadn't seen anything about changes after the issue of pilot injury came up; I know it was to be worked on but hadn't heard what a solution was.

Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: chanman on 28 February 2019, 02:23:45
Modern rocket-launched seats are the improvement. IIRC, the MiG-15's system would be one of the older explosive types with the expected side effects of such
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Kidd on 28 February 2019, 03:46:12
Mig-15? The "cannon-launched" type? How old is the thing anyway, I'm surprised that Elf n' Safety even considers it flightworthy :D
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: grimlock1 on 28 February 2019, 07:59:25
Modern rocket-launched seats are the improvement. IIRC, the MiG-15's system would be one of the older explosive types with the expected side effects of such
I spoke with a docent on the USS Midway who had the dubious distinction of ejecting from an aircraft using the older mechanism, which he described as a "cut down cannon shell," and the new rocket mechanism.  He said it made a considerable difference in comfort.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: worktroll on 28 February 2019, 12:58:57
I've heard that some pilots that had to eject ended up as much as an inch shorter; the violence causing some permanent spinal compression.  Again, beats the pants off riding it down, but still.

Happened to a school friend of mine who was navigator in the F111 that went down at sea. The F111's escape capsule design meant the rockets had to be very strong - "quarter sticks of dynamite" was the analogy. He got a ruptured disk, had the disks fused, couldn't fly no more.

Which did cause issues leading to marriage breakdown, hitting the bottle, and general badness :(
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Feenix74 on 28 February 2019, 17:46:51
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/83/7a/a7/837aa70f34c8ac7cb038852c66f94800.jpg)

The CA-27 Sabre has been grounded since mid-2018 because the aircraft is fitted with a Martin-Baker ejection seat which was retrofitted to the aircraft during the return to flight service program at the Temora Aviaion Museum (TAM) - the aircraft is owned by the RAAF but on loan to TAM. Martin-Baker has notified operators of historic ejection seats that they have ceased supplying parts for all historic ejection seats. Current RAAF policy is to only operate the aircraft with a serviceable ejection seat.

TAM’s Meteor F.8 will continue to fly for a period of time as TAM has in stock the required ejection seat consumables to keep the aircraft airworthy for a number of years.

(https://media-cdn.tripadvisor.com/media/photo-s/0a/e8/6f/9d/meteor.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Colt Ward on 28 February 2019, 17:49:18
You know the interesting thing with that Meteor is that it looks close to the A-10 . . . then again, they are both the same flight shapes.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: beachhead1985 on 28 February 2019, 18:19:48
Hm. I wonder what the down-ward ejection seats do to you? Seems the B-52 had them.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: chanman on 28 February 2019, 18:32:03
Hm. I wonder what the down-ward ejection seats do to you? Seems the B-52 had them.

They're fine as long as you meet the minimum altitude requirements - for obvious reasons.


(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/83/7a/a7/837aa70f34c8ac7cb038852c66f94800.jpg)

The CA-27 Sabre has been grounded since mid-2018 because the aircraft is fitted with a Martin-Baker ejection seat which was retrofitted to the aircraft during the return to flight service program at the Temora Aviaion Museum (TAM) - the aircraft is owned by the RAAF but on loan to TAM. Martin-Baker has notified operators of historic ejection seats that they have ceased supplying parts for all historic ejection seats. Current RAAF policy is to only operate the aircraft with a serviceable ejection seat.

TAM’s Meteor F.8 will continue to fly for a period of time as TAM has in stock the required ejection seat consumables to keep the aircraft airworthy for a number of years.

(https://media-cdn.tripadvisor.com/media/photo-s/0a/e8/6f/9d/meteor.jpg)

I wonder if they'll be able to refit a modern seat. That said, I think the last few civilian jet warbirds (L-39 Albatross, CT-114 Tutor) I've asked said that their ejection seats were disabled due to the compliance difficulties for explosives
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 28 February 2019, 18:58:09
They're fine as long as you meet the minimum altitude requirements - for obvious reasons.

Less thrust required?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: worktroll on 28 February 2019, 19:19:51
A "who's who" of chinese fighters: left to right Shenyang J-11, Chengdu J-10, Shenyang J-8II, Shenyang J-8, Chengdu J-7, Shenyang J-6, Shenyang JJ-2. Front row Xian JH-7A, Nanchang A5.

(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/8c/2a/49/8c2a49d80c3bed21f547e1029a01c812.jpg)

Now has anyone got any rational, non-belligerent (both ways) reviews on the J-20 and J-22 (not pictured)?

Also, Indian pilot shot down over Pakistan was reportedly flying a Mig-21. Brave, brave man.

W.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Daryk on 28 February 2019, 19:24:17
A MiG-21?  In today's IADS environment?? I don't think "brave" is the word...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Fat Guy on 28 February 2019, 19:42:38
Pictures taken on February 26th of an F-117A operating in the R-2508 range complex near Death Valley.

(https://combataircraft.keypublishing.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/5/2019/02/Screenshot-2019-02-27-at-07.09.40-1024x605.png)

(https://combataircraft.keypublishing.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/5/2019/02/Screenshot-2019-02-27-at-07.09.15-1024x622.png)

(https://combataircraft.keypublishing.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/5/2019/02/Screenshot-2019-02-27-at-07.30.54-740x1024.png)

The jet appears to be the old 49th Operations Group commander’s aircraft.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: worktroll on 28 February 2019, 19:44:21
One shot I saw of wreckage appeared to have a more curved pointed nose, so might have been a Tejas - didn't look right for a Mig-29, or a Mirage 2000.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Fat Guy on 28 February 2019, 19:45:01
One more pic:

(https://combataircraft.keypublishing.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/5/2019/02/Screenshot-2019-02-27-at-07.08.57-1024x637.png)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Daryk on 28 February 2019, 19:53:59
With all the [Rule 4] going on, I'm not sure anything rational is happening on that particular border at the moment, so a MiG-21 isn't out of the question.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Ghost0402 on 28 February 2019, 20:02:42
One more pic:

(https://combataircraft.keypublishing.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/5/2019/02/Screenshot-2019-02-27-at-07.08.57-1024x637.png)
There have been rumors for a few years that they would put a plane back together and fly them.  There we go.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: I am Belch II on 28 February 2019, 20:15:54
f117 had such a unique look to it, to bad it's not flying around anymore
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 28 February 2019, 20:20:34
There's been rumors of the -117s coming back as drone aircraft, and with China Lake for weapons development, Ft. Irwin for training and evaluation, and Edwards AFB all in that region, it's the perfect testing ground - especially to see if it can be armed with more recent munitions (SDB, JSOW, etc) and still operate well.

Zooming in on the photo, there's definitely visible cockpit glass, so it's not like other UAV conversions like the JetRanger or Piaggio Avanti where it's a slicked-over windowless design.  Odds are, it's still manned then, unless they're using them as target drones perhaps?  It's not like we have other stealth aircraft to test and train weapons against, like QF-4s or QF-16s.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: grimlock1 on 28 February 2019, 20:38:17
There's been rumors of the -117s coming back as drone aircraft, and with China Lake for weapons development, Ft. Irwin for training and evaluation, and Edwards AFB all in that region, it's the perfect testing ground - especially to see if it can be armed with more recent munitions (SDB, JSOW, etc) and still operate well.

Zooming in on the photo, there's definitely visible cockpit glass, so it's not like other UAV conversions like the JetRanger or Piaggio Avanti where it's a slicked-over windowless design.  Odds are, it's still manned then, unless they're using them as target drones perhaps?  It's not like we have other stealth aircraft to test and train weapons against, like QF-4s or QF-16s.
I was surprised when the -117 retired before the -35 was online.  I know its a one-trick-pony and that's a four letter word in this day and age, but it's a pretty damn good trick. Did the air frames start showing stress cracking sooner than expected? 
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 28 February 2019, 20:43:48
By retirement, the airframes were in their third decade (maiden flight 1981, IOC 1983) and it was decided to axe the Nighthawk to free up budget for more Raptors, back when we were still going to have lots of F-22s.

No comment past that, but anyway.  Seems someone found a few shady bucks to keep playing with the things.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: truetanker on 28 February 2019, 20:48:49
Playing? or more like put it all on black when the color is clearly red...

TT
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: chanman on 28 February 2019, 21:29:28
Less thrust required?

Uhhh.. A downward ejecting seat will need to be fired at a high enough altitude that the seat will clear the plane and the parachute is able to deploy. If you fire it too low, you become a smear on the ground.


A "who's who" of chinese fighters: left to right Shenyang J-11, Chengdu J-10, Shenyang J-8II, Shenyang J-8, Chengdu J-7, Shenyang J-6, Shenyang JJ-2. Front row Xian JH-7A, Nanchang A5.

(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/8c/2a/49/8c2a49d80c3bed21f547e1029a01c812.jpg)

Now has anyone got any rational, non-belligerent (both ways) reviews on the J-20 and J-22 (not pictured)?

Also, Indian pilot shot down over Pakistan was reportedly flying a Mig-21. Brave, brave man.

W.

Those look like models. I've never heard of the J-22. Do you mean the Shenyang J-31?

Not much to say about the J-20 - they seem to still be in the initial evaluation/test phase of service like the F-35. They're supposed to still be waiting on the definitive engines though. Shades of the F-14's struggles with the TF30 in that regard.

Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Kidd on 28 February 2019, 21:40:21
IAF Mig-21 Bison was downed by JF-17 Thunder

Ironic, since the JF-17 is essentially a modern derivative of the Mig-21.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 28 February 2019, 21:42:41
Uhhh.. A downward ejecting seat will need to be fired at a high enough altitude that the seat will clear the plane and the parachute is able to deploy. If you fire it too low, you become a smear on the ground.

I get that.  I was just thinking that when the seat engages it would need less thrust due to not fighting gravity and also not having to clear the tail.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 28 February 2019, 22:07:49
You'd still want a solid kick to get you well away from the aircraft as fast as possible.  Ignoring the whole 'it's a giant bomber loaded with explosives that is about to meet its maker' part, there's a massive amount of turbulence anywhere near a BUFF and, in all honesty, just because it's downwards firing in relation to the plane doesn't mean it'll be downwards when you actually eject.

The B-52 that crashed in 1994 at Fairchild was at the 90 degree roll point, with the aircraft yawing downward, when the copilot attempted to eject.  Bombardier and navigator positions would have been going equally sideways.

Now, that said, what happens in something like the Guam crash-on-takeoff a couple years ago?  Obviously the upper deck crew can escape quickly, but the poor suckers in the bottom of the plane (who survived without incident) don't have any option for that sort of thing.  You're literally stuck just riding it out and hoping it's not too hard a hit?  Yikes...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: chanman on 28 February 2019, 22:32:30
You'd still want a solid kick to get you well away from the aircraft as fast as possible.  Ignoring the whole 'it's a giant bomber loaded with explosives that is about to meet its maker' part, there's a massive amount of turbulence anywhere near a BUFF and, in all honesty, just because it's downwards firing in relation to the plane doesn't mean it'll be downwards when you actually eject.

The B-52 that crashed in 1994 at Fairchild was at the 90 degree roll point, with the aircraft yawing downward, when the copilot attempted to eject.  Bombardier and navigator positions would have been going equally sideways.

Now, that said, what happens in something like the Guam crash-on-takeoff a couple years ago?  Obviously the upper deck crew can escape quickly, but the poor suckers in the bottom of the plane (who survived without incident) don't have any option for that sort of thing.  You're literally stuck just riding it out and hoping it's not too hard a hit?  Yikes...

At least they had seats. Lower deck crew on an Avro Vulcan had to execute a manual bail out if they needed to leave the plane
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: glitterboy2098 on 01 March 2019, 02:18:15
There have been rumors for a few years that they would put a plane back together and fly them.  There we go.
not rumors. plenty of pysical evidence like that photo. but it isn't any conspiracy stuff like drone conversion.
the F-117's were mandated to preserved in flyable condition. in case they needed to be reactivated. only way to ensure that they remain in flyable condition is to reassemble a few every year and fly them. presumably they have been rotating through the ones in storage, so that no aircraft goes more than a few years without an inspection and test flight.


and several countries have been refitting their MiG-21's (and/or J-7's) to more modern avionics and munitions compatibility. India, Romania, etc. the aircraft is still very rugged and with the avionics and weapons updated it still makes a very good interceptor. some Indian ones were even able to take down F-16's in some recent wargames. plus refits would be a lot cheaper than buying an all new 4th gen fighter.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Kidd on 01 March 2019, 03:04:24

and several countries have been refitting their MiG-21's (and/or J-7's) to more modern avionics and munitions compatibility. India, Romania, etc. the aircraft is still very rugged and with the avionics and weapons updated it still makes a very good interceptor. some Indian ones were even able to take down F-16's in some recent wargames. plus refits would be a lot cheaper than buying an all new 4th gen fighter.
The Indian Mig-21 Bison is kind of similar to an F-16 Block 25 I think, at least in the AA domain. An argument can be made for some Block 52-esque capabilities.

On the other hand, the JF-17 is a very modern chap, even though it lacks a helmet display.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Fat Guy on 02 March 2019, 14:05:51
The F-35C achieved Initial Operational Capability on February 28.

(https://combataircraft.keypublishing.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/5/2018/03/180318-N-WP746-0149.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Smegish on 02 March 2019, 17:29:03
The F-35C achieved Initial Operational Capability on February 28.

(https://combataircraft.keypublishing.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/5/2018/03/180318-N-WP746-0149.jpg)

Landing? Or doing a burnout on a non-catapult takeoff?  ;D :D
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Fat Guy on 03 March 2019, 13:34:55
Looks like a touch-and-go.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: I am Belch II on 04 March 2019, 04:50:35
I like the burn out.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Cannonshop on 04 March 2019, 05:03:44
Landing? Or doing a burnout on a non-catapult takeoff?  ;D :D
only 20 years late!  I know that's not fair,  the F-22 had a similar distance to go.(https://amp.businessinsider.com/images/5a2814e7f914c356018b843c-750-375.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: DaveMac on 04 March 2019, 07:29:50
At least they had seats. Lower deck crew on an Avro Vulcan had to execute a manual bail out if they needed to leave the plane

Same on the Victor

Another one with downward seats were early versions of the F104 because of concerns about the ability of an upward firing seat to clear the tailplane. Over 20 USAF pilots died after ejecting at low level because of the type of seat. They later put in an upward firing seat that could clear the tail but could only be used as speeds over 100mph.  A lot of the export versions were fitted with Martin-Baker Mk.7 "zero-zero" (zero altitude and zero airspeed) seats
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Cannonshop on 04 March 2019, 09:05:38
Same on the Victor

Another one with downward seats were early versions of the F104 because of concerns about the ability of an upward firing seat to clear the tailplane. Over 20 USAF pilots died after ejecting at low level because of the type of seat. They later put in an upward firing seat that could clear the tail but could only be used as speeds over 100mph.  A lot of the export versions were fitted with Martin-Baker Mk.7 "zero-zero" (zero altitude and zero airspeed) seats
(http://martin-baker.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/mk18-info.png)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: chanman on 04 March 2019, 10:21:08
Same on the Victor

Another one with downward seats were early versions of the F104 because of concerns about the ability of an upward firing seat to clear the tailplane. Over 20 USAF pilots died after ejecting at low level because of the type of seat. They later put in an upward firing seat that could clear the tail but could only be used as speeds over 100mph.  A lot of the export versions were fitted with Martin-Baker Mk.7 "zero-zero" (zero altitude and zero airspeed) seats

I suspect with the F-104, there was a mistaken focus on having to bail out during combat or at the higher end of the F-104's performance envelope. (Given that this was the 50's, that may have been influenced by data from WW2, where that might be the case. Not like you can execute a manual bail out if something goes wrong at landing.)

Instead, as an early high performance jet with early high performance jet issues, that decision would have left pilots in a real bind if something went wrong during takeoff or landing... incidentally when most such problems occur
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: DaveMac on 04 March 2019, 10:36:40
http://www.ejectionsite.com/f104seat.htm

Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Fat Guy on 13 March 2019, 10:58:42
It's official. The USAF is buying at least 80, and as many as 144 F-15X Advanced Eagles. Able to carry up to 20 missiles, it will act as a missile truck for the 5th generation stealth types that have limited internal payload. It dovetails nicely with the two-stage extreme range AAM the US is developing.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Colt Ward on 13 March 2019, 11:06:42
It dovetails nicely with the two-stage extreme range AAM the US is developing.

Phoenix 2.0 since the Tomcat is dead?  or maybe dusting off the sat-killer/warhead interceptor?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Kidd on 13 March 2019, 11:42:49
I think more like taking the M out of AMRAAM.

Well they are legacy platforms but I'm sure they'll squeeze every inch of performance out of it, and the touted service life on those things are incredible. Theoretically we might all be dead before the last Eagle stops flying.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: HobbesHurlbut on 13 March 2019, 12:08:02
It's official. The USAF is buying at least 80, and as many as 144 F-15X Advanced Eagles. Able to carry up to 20 missiles, it will act as a missile truck for the 5th generation stealth types that have limited internal payload. It dovetails nicely with the two-stage extreme range AAM the US is developing.
Remind me of the Alpha and Beta VF fighter combination.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Colt Ward on 13 March 2019, 12:14:09
Well they are legacy platforms but I'm sure they'll squeeze every inch of performance out of it, and the touted service life on those things are incredible. Theoretically we might all be dead before the last Eagle stops flying.

So, we found the B-52 version of fighters?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: grimlock1 on 13 March 2019, 13:20:52
It's official. The USAF is buying at least 80, and as many as 144 F-15X Advanced Eagles. Able to carry up to 20 missiles, it will act as a missile truck for the 5th generation stealth types that have limited internal payload. It dovetails nicely with the two-stage extreme range AAM the US is developing.

Sooo is this C3 or C3i?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 13 March 2019, 17:06:21
AIM-120D is the current new standard, finally in full production and giving an "over 86 miles" range that, I've heard, is actually well past 100.  There's a new toy that started getting funding for design and development in 2018, the LREW (Long Range Engagement Weapon) that, at the moment, is conceived of as a two-stage missile that can fit in an F-22's weapons bay.  It's actually not a bad idea - after you kick the booster, you can probably push your smaller, lighter second stage much faster since you're not dragging a lot of dead weight.  It'd be a nasty surprise for someone maneuvering to evade; all of a sudden the incoming shot goes from mach 4 to mach 6 (for example) and gets on you unexpectedly fast.

Wonder if they'll do something like a Starstreak, multiple A2A submunitions?  The brits seem to be enjoying the thing; maybe there's something to the capacity. 
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: HobbesHurlbut on 13 March 2019, 19:46:52
AIM-120D is the current new standard, finally in full production and giving an "over 86 miles" range that, I've heard, is actually well past 100.  There's a new toy that started getting funding for design and development in 2018, the LREW (Long Range Engagement Weapon) that, at the moment, is conceived of as a two-stage missile that can fit in an F-22's weapons bay.  It's actually not a bad idea - after you kick the booster, you can probably push your smaller, lighter second stage much faster since you're not dragging a lot of dead weight.  It'd be a nasty surprise for someone maneuvering to evade; all of a sudden the incoming shot goes from mach 4 to mach 6 (for example) and gets on you unexpectedly fast.

Wonder if they'll do something like a Starstreak, multiple A2A submunitions?  The brits seem to be enjoying the thing; maybe there's something to the capacity.
Like I pointed out earlier. F-15X is the Veritech Beta Fighter and F35 (which it's supposed to compliment) is the Veritech Alpha Fighter. F-15X with 20 of the AIM-120D or other models. Wooof hello Macross Fighter Combat.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Fat Guy on 13 March 2019, 22:12:37
They're actually going to make the second stage of the LREW in 2 different lengths. A shorter one to enable it to fit in the weapon bays of the 22s and 35s, and a longer one (with correspondingly longer range) for the missile trucks.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Feenix74 on 13 March 2019, 23:09:55
Wonder how long before they to figure out how to fit the longer range version of the LREW into and onto a B-52 (a proper missile truck 8) ) . . .
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 14 March 2019, 02:45:21
Nah, I wouldn't want those on a BUFF.  Even with the potential ranges of the LREW there's no way I'm tying mach 2.5 fighters down to a subsonic launch platform; having TOO many eggs in one basket that can be easily gone around is no bueno.  That said, sortieing a single BUFF is a lot cheaper than a fighter sweep, per-hour costs for a -52 and -22 are almost the same.

F-16s, on the other hand, less than a third the cost of either per flight-hour, but still.  (I like the Viper!)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Kidd on 14 March 2019, 03:49:10
BUFF don't have the speed to make best use of AAMs. A B-1B perhaps...

(https://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--VhwoHbcJ--/c_scale,f_auto,fl_progressive,q_80,w_800/yjlc1j120spk5vqmwknc.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Feenix74 on 14 March 2019, 05:50:36
I would happily go with a B-1B as a LREW missile truck for F-35s/F-22 in an offensive scenario (ie you are chasing the OPFOR) but in a defensive scenario (where the OPFOR are coming to you) then a BUFF circling behind the F-35/F-22 screen and providing the missile truck service could work as it would be able to provide lots of time on station.

(https://ukdj.imgix.net/2017/12/rtn_rms_product_mald_pic02.jpg)

MALD (Miniature Air-Launched Decoy) and MALD-J (Miniature Air-Launched Decoy Jammer) mounted on a B-52.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: hoosierhick on 14 March 2019, 08:34:00
Wonder how long before they to figure out how to fit the longer range version of the LREW into and onto a B-52 (a proper missile truck 8) ) . . .

That sounds familiar...

(http://i.imgur.com/d7FYccG.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: grimlock1 on 14 March 2019, 09:04:15
BUFF don't have the speed to make best use of AAMs. A B-1B perhaps...

(https://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--VhwoHbcJ--/c_scale,f_auto,fl_progressive,q_80,w_800/yjlc1j120spk5vqmwknc.jpg)
Air speed of the launch platform can have a noticeable effect on the engagement envelope of a missile.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Fat Guy on 14 March 2019, 10:06:14
It seems I was wrong about the F-15X carrying 20 missiles. The actual number is 22. It'll also have a 20,000 hour service life. 

With it's $27,000 per flight hour opreating cost, replacing F-15C/Ds with Xs would pay for itself in ten years.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: HobbesHurlbut on 14 March 2019, 10:32:53
It seems I was wrong about the F-15X carrying 20 missiles. The actual number is 22.
Macross Missile Spam anyone? I can't believe no one else have picked up how close this is to the Macross stuff? Or even Ace Combat?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: David CGB on 14 March 2019, 15:49:22
Macross Missile Spam anyone? I can't believe no one else have picked up how close this is to the Macross stuff? Or even Ace Combat?
life imitates art all the time
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Fat Guy on 14 March 2019, 21:05:58
Sooo is this C3 or C3i?

Nova CEWS, without limits on networked units.  ;)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Sabelkatten on 15 March 2019, 05:03:07
Nova CEWS, without limits on networked units.  ;)
In practice it's probably more like TAG.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: I am Belch II on 15 March 2019, 05:36:04
So 22 missiles at once from one plane. The carrying capacity is its biggest asset. The f35 and stealth to bring down the air defense , the f15x to lay the hurt down.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Kidd on 15 March 2019, 05:42:01
It seems I was wrong about the F-15X carrying 20 missiles. The actual number is 22. It'll also have a 20,000 hour service life. 

With it's $27,000 per flight hour opreating cost, replacing F-15C/Ds with Xs would pay for itself in ten years.
To be cautious, I'd say there's some fine print to be read about mid-life costs which isn't always included in these estimates

But yeah. 20,000 hours, if you run it just 200 hours a year it could theoretically keep flying for a century, and I bet some aficionado is going to do exactly that just like we do with WW2 Spits now

Not that we'll be around to see it  ;D

So 22 missiles at once from one plane. The carrying capacity is its biggest asset. The f35 and stealth to bring down the air defense , the f15x to lay the hurt down.
How fast slow does it go at 22 missiles though, that is a question. And how far.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Sharpnel on 15 March 2019, 07:01:19
It will never a full load of 22 missiles. They would need space for external fuel pods.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Feenix74 on 15 March 2019, 07:23:13
Or aerial tanker support assigned.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: grimlock1 on 15 March 2019, 07:50:32
It seems I was wrong about the F-15X carrying 20 missiles. The actual number is 22. It'll also have a 20,000 hour service life. 

With it's $27,000 per flight hour opreating cost, replacing F-15C/Ds with Xs would pay for itself in ten years.
20 missiles is still a lot of AAMs.  How many were fired in Desert Storm?
But lets sit and stink on this for a moment. F-15E has 1 pylon under each wing, 1 centerline, and 6 on either flank. So that's 15 potential places to put a missile. The wing hard points can mount 2 AAM's (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McDonnell_Douglas_F-15E_Strike_Eagle#/media/File:F-15e.jpg) in addition to what looks like a fuel tank.  Assuming the -15X would also want to carry external tanks, this brings us to 17 hardpoints. Historically, only two AAMs are carried on the flank hardpoints because of length of the missile and concern that the fins might hit something as its separating from the aircraft, but with more compact missiles like the AIM-120C, maybe 4 missiles to a side. That brings down to 13. If they remove the AN/AAQ-13 Nav and AN/AAQ-14 pods, and install hardpoints instead, that brings us back to 15. This image (http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=1868826&d=1375617422), from a questionable source, suggests that Boeing has been kicking around the idea of adding an additional pylon to each wing.  If that's the case, this may not be hard.  With 8 on each wing, and 4 on the flanks, that's 20 right there.

Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: HobbesHurlbut on 15 March 2019, 08:05:10
20 missiles is still a lot of AAMs.  How many were fired in Desert Storm?
But lets sit and stink on this for a moment. F-15E has 1 pylon under each wing, 1 centerline, and 6 on either flank. So that's 15 potential places to put a missile. The wing hard points can mount 2 AAM's (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McDonnell_Douglas_F-15E_Strike_Eagle#/media/File:F-15e.jpg) in addition to what looks like a fuel tank.  Assuming the -15X would also want to carry external tanks, this brings us to 17 hardpoints. Historically, only two AAMs are carried on the flank hardpoints because of length of the missile and concern that the fins might hit something as its separating from the aircraft, but with more compact missiles like the AIM-120C, maybe 4 missiles to a side. That brings down to 13. If they remove the AN/AAQ-13 Nav and AN/AAQ-14 pods, and install hardpoints instead, that brings us back to 15. This image (http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=1868826&d=1375617422), from a questionable source, suggests that Boeing has been kicking around the idea of adding an additional pylon to each wing.  If that's the case, this may not be hard.  With 8 on each wing, and 4 on the flanks, that's 20 right there.
http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/26305/f-15x-will-come-in-two-variants-and-no-it-wont-cost-100m-per-copy yeah they're going with TWO pylons on each wing, as indicated by both proposals for F-15 Advanced and F-15X.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: hoosierhick on 15 March 2019, 08:48:26
From what I understand the F-15 has always had the ability to mount the other two wing pylons but they never used them for a reason I can't remember at the moment.  The F15SA and now the F-15X are the only ones actually using them.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Kidd on 15 March 2019, 08:59:30
So pretty. So Battletech.

(https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-_s0zVI7Zwc0/XItUusQJ8QI/AAAAAAABs5E/vJgVIFKJXVMe8yWiRYvYygo-wCABE_I-QCLcBGAs/s640/33504855828_fd5026ddab_o.jpg)

(https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-jUSTK2zihE8/XItUuqDM-OI/AAAAAAABs5A/UhjPq22qy-8j0DAMfF3O68WvPI5mwjRPgCLcBGAs/s640/40415580943_a4be2f7c40_o.jpg)

(https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-IzlLhFOO9gE/XItUvym9-iI/AAAAAAABs5Q/aGdrlfIwCSwgLXaQV131ebbRjuvA2H3OwCLcBGAs/s640/46465986195_6acce09836_o.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Colt Ward on 15 March 2019, 09:10:14
I am sorry, did I hear the theme music for Airwolf starting?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Ruger on 15 March 2019, 09:55:07
I am sorry, did I hear the theme music for Airwolf starting?

Shame about Stringfellow Hawk though...

Ruger
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: glitterboy2098 on 15 March 2019, 10:03:39
From what I understand the F-15 has always had the ability to mount the other two wing pylons but they never used them for a reason I can't remember at the moment.  The F15SA and now the F-15X are the only ones actually using them.

when the -15SA got revealed lots of ace combat and macross references were tossed around in comments. the -15X is just the -15SA with the avionics swapped for more USAF compatible ones.

i keep expecting them to stick a double rack onto each of the attack conformal pack's lower bomb pylons to carry an extra 4 there. or to work out how to mount single AAM's to each of the bomb pylons on it for the same effect. or some sort of large multiple missile bay mounted where the centerline fuel tank goes, like the F/A-18 proposals.

(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-Qc80t-oDNpw/UhzY7zQ9F9I/AAAAAAAA2LA/ZHn91iyJnYk/s640/163474043-Advanced-Super-Hornet-Media-Brief_page21_image264.jpg)
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-4o_yq9Ay7fs/UhzY-S27FTI/AAAAAAAA2LI/r35K3nmKsFc/s640/163474043-Advanced-Super-Hornet-Media-Brief_page21_image267.png)

given the push for smaller defensive munitions, like the Small Advanced Capability Missile program that wants to build a sidewinder comparable missile into a package the size of a small diameter bomb (to let stealth planes carry more in their bays), i suspect that missile spam is going to be increasingly an option for the non-stealth fighters.


Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 15 March 2019, 11:27:06
Shame about Stringfellow Hawk though...

Ruger
At least JMV isn't hurting anymore.

I wonder how much of Silent Eagle is going into the -15X; I don't see the canted tail structure so that's out.  But there could be some other LO stuff being put in, I suppose, since they're improving so many other things already.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Kidd on 15 March 2019, 13:42:03

Wonder if they'll do something like a Starstreak, multiple A2A submunitions?  The brits seem to be enjoying the thing; maybe there's something to the capacity.
Maybe when Laser AMS or some Trophylike APS gets to fighters we'll see precursor submunitions and multiple warheads.

Msybe they'll come in racks of 5, 10, 15, 20 micro-missiles per salvo...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: worktroll on 15 March 2019, 14:11:24
I wonder how much of Silent Eagle is going into the -15X; I don't see the canted tail structure so that's out.  But there could be some other LO stuff being put in, I suppose, since they're improving so many other things already.

My guess? Not a lot. How much more do they want to spend per airframe, on a missile bus? Plus, keeping the enemy's eyes on the F-15s, while not knowing where the F-22s etc are ...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 15 March 2019, 15:18:20
True, and there's probably plenty of 15X that won't work with Silent Eagle, but I figure it'd be an economic option.  If you're spending 5 million per airframe (completely random number) anyway, adding another million isn't that big a stickershock as it would be if you were just doing the million alone.  That sort of thing.  And even if it isn't much in the way of stealth, at least keeping your missile trucks hidden as well for a few minutes longer isn't a bad thing.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Colt Ward on 15 March 2019, 16:01:37
Surprised its not being planned as a drone if it is fire support for the Raptors.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: HobbesHurlbut on 15 March 2019, 16:08:50
Surprised its not being planned as a drone if it is fire support for the Raptors.
That is NOT the only role for it. the F-15X is intended to replace the F-15C/D because their airframes are wearing out. It will do the same jobs that the C/D has been doing in addition to being a missile bus for the F-22/F35.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Kidd on 15 March 2019, 18:02:37
That is NOT the only role for it. the F-15X is intended to replace the F-15C/D because their airframes are wearing out. It will do the same jobs that the C/D has been doing in addition to being a missile bus for the F-22/F35.
Yeah.
There are also two proposed versions, one with strike capabilities and one without.

Kind of a strange journey for an aircraft designed with the ethos "not a pound for air to ground".
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Daryk on 15 March 2019, 18:25:23
That ethos explains so much about the Air Force...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 15 March 2019, 21:05:07
Look up the past history of the USAF in Vietnam, especially early on.  There's a reason the Fighter Mafia took over.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: I am Belch II on 16 March 2019, 07:16:28
I dont understand that big pod under the Super Hornet.
The pod is big hung under the plane, the Super Hornet isnt really a Stealth plane, and the pod isnt stealthy.

Is it just to make 1 hard point turn into 4 or 6??
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: hoosierhick on 16 March 2019, 07:33:58
I dont understand that big pod under the Super Hornet.
The pod is big hung under the plane, the Super Hornet isnt really a Stealth plane, and the pod isnt stealthy.

Is it just to make 1 hard point turn into 4 or 6??

I think the point of the pod is that it's stealthier (and maybe has less drag) than having all those bombs and missiles hanging out in the breeze. 
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Cannonshop on 16 March 2019, 14:02:21
I think the point of the pod is that it's stealthier (and maybe has less drag) than having all those bombs and missiles hanging out in the breeze.

also, presuming well-designed hookups, easier to service and replace in a hot-swap environment.  cutting ground time between sorties is an obvious reason to adopt a modular pod system.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: I am Belch II on 16 March 2019, 14:56:18
Just like the Omni-Aerospace fighter. Weapons pods for easy on and easy off.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: glitterboy2098 on 16 March 2019, 17:26:50
plus, IIRC, the fighter normally cannot mount weapons on the centerline hard point, since that is fitted for fueltank and equipment pods like ECM. so the weapons pod would allow the fighter to carry additional munitions beyond what it normally would be capable of.

further, the pods would (with just some software updates in most cases) be compatible with other american aircraft. imagine slinging three of those pods below one of those F-15X's for example. one per wing and one centerline, replacing the tanks. that would bring the total AMRAAM count up to nearly 30. and since they are steathy(ish), you could sling one under each wing of the F-22 to triple its munition capacity with far less reduction in stealth that normal external munitions would cause. (one could also easily see them using the same frame to create external fueltanks with the same shape for similar increase in capability without complete loss of stealth.)

ultimately with projects like these it is often less about "how will this new addition make this one fighter super effective" and more about "ok we have the technology for X that will benefit multiple platforms. how do we piggyback it onto the next big fighter update and get the ball rolling?"
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: I am Belch II on 17 March 2019, 03:58:25
I guess a upgraded F15X may work better then the possible of B1R Missile Truck. The B1 has be out of production for decades.

Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 17 March 2019, 11:48:08
True, but the Air Force wants that thing just for the name alone...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Ghost0402 on 17 March 2019, 18:02:14
It seems I was wrong about the F-15X carrying 20 missiles. The actual number is 22. It'll also have a 20,000 hour service life. 

With it's $27,000 per flight hour opreating cost, replacing F-15C/Ds with Xs would pay for itself in ten years.
Excellent.  We need something to compliment the F-22 besides the F-16 and F-35.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: grimlock1 on 18 March 2019, 07:29:16
I guess a upgraded F15X may work better then the possible of B1R Missile Truck. The B1 has be out of production for decades.
The B-1 is a damn sexy airplane that has spent the last 40 odd years looking for a mission. The B-2 took over as the first strike of the bomber wing, before it ever got off the ground. There were never enough B-1s or B-2s to put the B-52s out to pasture.  It's a beautiful plane but what does it do better than anybody else?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Kidd on 18 March 2019, 07:54:25
The B-1 is a damn sexy airplane that has spent the last 40 odd years looking for a mission. The B-2 took over as the first strike of the bomber wing, before it ever got off the ground. There were never enough B-1s or B-2s to put the B-52s out to pasture.  It's a beautiful plane but what does it do better than anybody else?
Speed, armour stealth, firepower - it was the Speedy one of the 3 US bombers. Which wasn't quite a great choice at the end of the day considerimg overall strategy and how events worked out... There just didn't seem a need for a really fast bomber.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Colt Ward on 18 March 2019, 10:55:52
Speed, armour stealth, firepower - it was the Speedy one of the 3 US bombers. Which wasn't quite a great choice at the end of the day considerimg overall strategy and how events worked out... There just didn't seem a need for a really fast bomber.

My understanding was the B1 was supposed to be the speedy nuke-dropper, part of why it was never involved with anything else was the difficulty of refitting the bays.

Sort of ironic was that both the B1 and the A-10 were based at Fairchild AFB outside Spokane . . . a plane the AF hung on to trying to find a mission and a plane the AF repeatedly tried to ditch not wanting the mission.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Kidd on 18 March 2019, 11:09:35
The USAF's assessment is that both the B-1 and A-10 aren't survivable enough. They want the A-10 dropped for the F-35, the B-1 for the B-21

The argument is that the A-10's vaunted armour is no longer as much defence as it used to be compared to stealth and ECM

While the B-1's "speed is life" concept was never really workable and far less so now with oodles of far more advanced SAMs around
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Colt Ward on 18 March 2019, 11:43:22
It was the 60s ideal nuke delivery package- fast & NOE . . . its not the bomb truck the B-52 is, and it was expensive to convert the bays to anything else.  Tac Bomber roles got taken over by fighter/bombers- the last one I can remember being in wide use in the USAF was the F-111 which was like its ugly little brother.  Its debate-able if some of the f/bs that had token fighter abilities are really f/b or tac bombers.

Low, slow and in the weeds . . . armor still helps against ground fire and missile frags.  I have a laugh over the AF having to revive Vietnam-era birds for economic CAS for garrison troops.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: grimlock1 on 18 March 2019, 11:52:34
The USAF's assessment is that both the B-1 and A-10 aren't survivable enough. They want the A-10 dropped for the F-35, the B-1 for the B-21

The argument is that the A-10's vaunted armour is no longer as much defence as it used to be compared to stealth and ECM

While the B-1's "speed is life" concept was never really workable and far less so now with oodles of far more advanced SAMs around
If you believe Ben Rich's book, the B-1A was canceled because Carter was briefed on the stealth stuff coming down the pike and realized the Lancer was already obsolete.  Then Regan campaigned on restarting the B-1 line.  So when Regan won, he decided to keep that promise.

It was the 60s ideal nuke delivery package- fast & NOE . . . its not the bomb truck the B-52 is, and it was expensive to convert the bays to anything else.  Tac Bomber roles got taken over by fighter/bombers- the last one I can remember being in wide use in the USAF was the F-111 which was like its ugly little brother.  Its debate-able if some of the f/bs that had token fighter abilities are really f/b or tac bombers.

Low, slow and in the weeds . . . armor still helps against ground fire and missile frags.  I have a laugh over the AF having to revive Vietnam-era birds for economic CAS for garrison troops.

Bringing OV-10's back into service because they can't stand the idea of admitting that the A-10 is REALLY good at the CAS mission.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Kidd on 18 March 2019, 12:03:17
It was the 60s ideal nuke delivery package- fast & NOE . . . its not the bomb truck the B-52 is, and it was expensive to convert the bays to anything else.  Tac Bomber roles got taken over by fighter/bombers- the last one I can remember being in wide use in the USAF was the F-111 which was like its ugly little brother.  Its debate-able if some of the f/bs that had token fighter abilities are really f/b or tac bombers.

Low, slow and in the weeds . . . armor still helps against ground fire and missile frags.  I have a laugh over the AF having to revive Vietnam-era birds for economic CAS for garrison troops.
Yes the F-111 was in a similar position as the B-1.

Warning: personal uninformed view ahead.

The A-10 lies in an uncomfortable middle ground frankly. It's no longer survivable enough for peer conflict and much of its combat testimonials revolve around its use as an insurgency CAS. Which could be done even cheaper by the like of Broncos or Super Tucanos or Reaper drones. So why shouldn't it be replaced by Tucanos and Reapers and 35s?

If you believe Ben Rich's book, the B-1A was canceled because Carter was briefed on the stealth stuff coming down the pike and realized the Lancer was already obsolete.  Then Regan campaigned on restarting the B-1 line.  So when Regan won, he decided to keep that promise.
 
That's the generally accepted explanation, yes. As with all things we'll never truly know, eh?

Not that I'm casting doubt, just being philosophical.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Colt Ward on 18 March 2019, 12:43:20
So why shouldn't it be replaced by Tucanos and Reapers and 35s?

AFAIK, the A-10 is cheaper to operate on a per sortie basis than -35s though you are starting to run into lifetime other problems associate with trying to kill the airframe.  Broncos are cheaper- prop vs jet but they are also suffering from age and supply line.  Reapers?  Not the same payload but can probably be more places you just have the little problem of not having a body in the aircraft which allows it to be hijacked or spoofed.  The Fighter Mafia hates the lowly tac bomber (granted it was built for the Russian armor swarms) but does not want to yield that niche to the Army.  They would also hate to RFP and maintain a fleet of COIN tac bombers- something like a glorified crop duster that would lack all the latest bestest cutting edge toys.

Which is why having the Bronco rub their noses in it is so entertaining to me.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Kidd on 18 March 2019, 13:14:20
People keep bringing up the "35s can't plink technicals on a dime like the A-10 can" as justification to keep the A-10, when it should really be a justification for Tucanos.

If someone put their foot down and gave the USAF a choice between having NO F-35s versus having some F-35s and some Tucanos, I think they'd choose the former. But somehow the A-10 mafia won and it's neither.

Then again, maybe I'm wrong, maybe A-10s are necessary even for plinking Toyotas. They'd get to the CAS site faster than prop-driven can, I wonder if that's an important consideration.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: grimlock1 on 18 March 2019, 13:24:45
Which could be done even cheaper by the like of Broncos or Super Tucanos or Reaper drones. So why shouldn't it be replaced by Tucanos and Reapers and 35s?
The F-35 lacks the loiter time and payload capacity that an A-10 brings to the CAS mission. While I have no data, my understanding of aerodynamics and thermo suggest that F-35s do not have terribly good performance or handling at low altitudes and speeds.  While can't speak to the F-35's ruggedness, it's a damn expensive airplane, and patching bullet holes AND maintaining stealth has got to be expensive.

I don't know enough about the Broncos or Super Tucanos to say much.  Reapers are optimized for high, slow, long flights.  Those long thin wings are not so great for aggressive maneuvers, like pulling a tight turn for a second attack run. They are also more susceptible weather, both aerodynamically and from a telecommunications perspective.

And while many of us are not, as you say, experts, I suspect that most people on this thread are aviation buffs and know quite a bit more than the average person. :-)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Kidd on 18 March 2019, 13:29:39
@grimlock - I meant adopting Tucanos for insurgency work, F-35s for near-peer work.

And yeah I know there's an aerospace engineer or five around.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Colt Ward on 18 March 2019, 14:43:02
@grimlock - I meant adopting Tucanos for insurgency work, F-35s for near-peer work.

And yeah I know there's an aerospace engineer or five around.

The -35 is not near peer, b/c of the loiter, b/c of the limited load, b/c of its breaking point, and b/c of its flight profile.

I am all for the USAF getting a modern relative to the twin prop CAS from Vietnam, but the Fighter Mafia will try some sexy bleeding edge tech design rather than a cruciform bomb truck from a proven design.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: DoctorMonkey on 18 March 2019, 15:41:53
I read a Quoro post that made me reconsider some of these CAS arguments.


The F-35 is not going to try to do what the A-10 does, it is going to go about things in its own way.


The modern era has given us forward observers in greater numbers than ever before so the F-35 can stay upstairs and hidden and pop off a small missile or small diameter bomb to plink something that is being designated while the pilot sits surrounded by sensors and inputs to know where they need to be. The F-35 is also going to be able to get to where it is needed to provide support a lot faster than an A-10, especially if the A-10 had to go around something that would be a threat like a SAM site.


With Air-to-Surface Missiles with a longer range and great reliability but small (ish) size, we don't need the A-10's 30mm monster cannon and the lack of sensors or pilot aids hurts the A-10's ability to actually provide support when, as above, it eventually gets there.


If this was the 1980s and the Soviet Shock Armies start rolling across the border into West Germany then I'd love to have A-10s around but these days... I'd go with F-35s which can do the same thing in terms of hurting the person being nasty to you while training aircraft (Tucano, BAe Hawk etc) or drones can be adapted for lower intensity or threat work or if you are worried about losses.


Finally, the F-35 also offers far better strike and interdiction capability to kill the enemy's bridges, logistics etc as well.


Is the F-35 perfect - far from it. Is the A-10 golden - not really.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: grimlock1 on 18 March 2019, 15:49:02
@grimlock - I meant adopting Tucanos for insurgency work, F-35s for near-peer work.

And yeah I know there's an aerospace engineer or five around.
Point of clarification, I was implying that you are likely quite knowledgeable.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: DoctorMonkey on 18 March 2019, 15:49:57
Point of clarification, I was implying that you are likely quite knowledgeable.


whereas I am totally ignorant
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Kidd on 18 March 2019, 15:57:19
Point of clarification, I was implying that you are likely quite knowledgeable.
Hell to the no, man.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Colt Ward on 18 March 2019, 16:43:28
The F-35 is not going to try to do what the A-10 does, it is going to go about things in its own way.


The modern era has given us forward observers in greater numbers than ever before so the F-35 can stay upstairs and hidden and pop off a small missile or small diameter bomb to plink something that is being designated while the pilot sits surrounded by sensors and inputs to know where they need to be. The F-35 is also going to be able to get to where it is needed to provide support a lot faster than an A-10, especially if the A-10 had to go around something that would be a threat like a SAM site.


With Air-to-Surface Missiles with a longer range and great reliability but small (ish) size, we don't need the A-10's 30mm monster cannon and the lack of sensors or pilot aids hurts the A-10's ability to actually provide support when, as above, it eventually gets there.


If this was the 1980s and the Soviet Shock Armies start rolling across the border into West Germany then I'd love to have A-10s around but these days... I'd go with F-35s which can do the same thing in terms of hurting the person being nasty to you while training aircraft (Tucano, BAe Hawk etc) or drones can be adapted for lower intensity or threat work or if you are worried about losses.


Finally, the F-35 also offers far better strike and interdiction capability to kill the enemy's bridges, logistics etc as well.

Fun stat we used in Advanced Individual Training was to tell the 13C, forward observers, was that they had a combat lifespan of 14 seconds on the battlefield.  How that number is arrived at, I do not know but I went through in the post-Cold War era where we were still training to fight that conventional war (never co-locate with your transmitters- here is where you hook in that cable to go to your radio antennae that should be X away from your BOC).

Smart munitions are all well can good . . . but they get expensive, which is part of why the big gun is on the A-10.  But that is not its only- or even primary weapon- for CAS roles . . . dumb bombs, cluster bombs and napalm can all be carried in greater quantities than the F-35 for the reasons cited above on the -22's AA capabilities.  It can also drop the Maverick and the other expensive (and thus limited in the inventories) guided/smart munitions.  Fire Support, and CAS qualifies for this, determines the abilities of a enemy asset as neutralized/something- impaired?/degraded/harassed which determines if it gets follow up attention- so for sortie purposes, mo' bombs = mo' betta'.

The higher cost of using the F-35 for the role was cited in a 2011 Congressional report about the A-10 replacement options.  Now this is not to say that it might not be a good cost cutting measure to go with a new CAS bird- something without the big tank killing gun maybe.  But its going to look a lot like the A-10 in its airframe b/c of its function rather than a high altitude & high performance jet- it may have more stealth features like a V-form tail or bury the engines between the wing and fuselage to defeat some IR but its going to do that to prevent look down targeting IMO since fighters are their threat.  CAS is not going to have to penetrate a high AA environment without Wild Weasel support and their defense systems are pretty robust as I understand it- btw, the bird can apparently be rigged for Wild Weasel work though is probably hampered by being a single seater for the most part.

But the design is 40+ years old . . . which also means the airframes are getting older despite the longevity treatments.  I am not sure they are the pinnacle of the design tree that the B-52 has reached despite its ongoing evolution.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Daryk on 18 March 2019, 18:36:51
While the Tucano might be cheaper (a LOT cheaper) than an A-10, I don't think many pilots would want to face the lucky RPG or AK-47 with anything less than a titanium bathtub...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: chanman on 18 March 2019, 22:23:36
The B-1 is a damn sexy airplane that has spent the last 40 odd years looking for a mission. The B-2 took over as the first strike of the bomber wing, before it ever got off the ground. There were never enough B-1s or B-2s to put the B-52s out to pasture.  It's a beautiful plane but what does it do better than anybody else?

Look really freakin' cool in a hangar while waiting for parts?

Mind you, it has that in common with the A-5 Vigilante, another North American product that looked like it was breaking Mach while parked.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Cannonshop on 18 March 2019, 22:52:39
I read a Quoro post that made me reconsider some of these CAS arguments.


The F-35 is not going to try to do what the A-10 does, it is going to go about things in its own way.


The modern era has given us forward observers in greater numbers than ever before so the F-35 can stay upstairs and hidden and pop off a small missile or small diameter bomb to plink something that is being designated while the pilot sits surrounded by sensors and inputs to know where they need to be. The F-35 is also going to be able to get to where it is needed to provide support a lot faster than an A-10, especially if the A-10 had to go around something that would be a threat like a SAM site.


With Air-to-Surface Missiles with a longer range and great reliability but small (ish) size, we don't need the A-10's 30mm monster cannon and the lack of sensors or pilot aids hurts the A-10's ability to actually provide support when, as above, it eventually gets there.


If this was the 1980s and the Soviet Shock Armies start rolling across the border into West Germany then I'd love to have A-10s around but these days... I'd go with F-35s which can do the same thing in terms of hurting the person being nasty to you while training aircraft (Tucano, BAe Hawk etc) or drones can be adapted for lower intensity or threat work or if you are worried about losses.


Finally, the F-35 also offers far better strike and interdiction capability to kill the enemy's bridges, logistics etc as well.


Is the F-35 perfect - far from it. Is the A-10 golden - not really.

Is the F-35 viable for close air support? not really.  when it's there, sure, (anything that can drop a bomb is-once.) but it won't be there very often, nor for very long.  having CAS available for 2 minutes out of every hour (flight time from refuel to front and back) you need a lot more of them to maintain coverage on ground units, then we get to payload.   The 35 has less payload than an F-5E.  (not that it matters when you can't stick around.)

the '35 is a first-strike fighter, it's an air superiority fighter, and that's where you hit the wall.  USAF doesn't like doing air-to-mud in a combat situation and spending the price of an abrams-each time-to blow up one or two insurgents is pretty damn wasteful in munitions-and that's what you end up spending, because the F-35 can't survive air support as a mission-it can only do the stand-off mission the F-15E already does for less, in an environment where enemy ADA has already been suppressed into nonexistence.  (See, you LOSE all that nifty stealth advantage if you give it enough warload to actually carry more than a very small number of bombs.)

and it lacks fuel range, which in turn means linger time, meaning it's unavailable more often than even the supersonic jets we already have in service, and available LESS OFTEN for calls from troops that 'found' that concentration of enemy.

It's more susceptible to random damage as well as aimed damage-heck, it's more suscepible to damage PERIOD. (and again, damage eliminates that stealth option, but in this case it's harder to keep in the air!)

"in it's own way" means they'll assign it the mission-and it won't execute that mission except on paper.

Smart munitions are insanely, absurdly expensive items.  you CAN buy a main battle tank for the price of some of the ones we have in inventory-difference being, an MBT will be usefl for several conflicts, and a smart bomb is useful in only one engagement in one conflict (per unit).  The whole reason the Navy's looking at gun-based systems and the army's repeatedly putting new howitzer designs up, is that the per-shot cost is so MUCH less than buying guided missiles or smart bombs.

really, really so much less, you wouldn't believe the price difference unless you've seen the numbers congress sees.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Sharpnel on 19 March 2019, 00:55:59
This is why they need to let the Army have it's own aircraft to provide CAS. Unfortunately, policy is not in favor that logical idea. Bring back OV-10D and let the Army handle it's own CAS/COIN missions. And no, helos can't do the job by them selves due to the limitations on how much and what type of weaponry they can carry.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: DoctorMonkey on 19 March 2019, 03:02:45
This is why they need to let the Army have it's own aircraft to provide CAS. Unfortunately, policy is not in favor that logical idea. Bring back OV-10D and let the Army handle it's own CAS/COIN missions. And no, helos can't do the job by them selves due to the limitations on how much and what type of weaponry they can carry.


I do rather think that a lot of this discussion is bounded by US doctrine - I would look perhaps at the USMC or other NATO ways of working


In the "post A-10 world" I would expect the close support to be performed by (Army) attack helicopters, non-stealthy fighters like EuroFighter Typhoon, F-15E, F-18E/F, F-16, Rafele etc with somewhat stand off weapons, and with Wild Weasel, drones and F-35s taking on AAA and trickier targets


Oh and the life expectancy of the forward controllers of a few seconds after designating sadly does not surprise me but similar stats were quoted for MANPADs operators, just think of them as a one shot weapon like an AT-4  :-\


(I am taking something of a Devil's Advocate position here)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Kidd on 19 March 2019, 03:16:10
And now for something from the other side...

What is it about that camo that gets me going?

(https://i.postimg.cc/wx7CrCNj/rEPemhi.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Sharpnel on 19 March 2019, 03:30:31
Could it be the lovely shades of blue that were used?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Deadborder on 19 March 2019, 05:16:45
It is a very attractive shade
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: DoctorMonkey on 19 March 2019, 05:22:04
RAF Museum Hendon blog post on the glorious "wooden wonder" the Mosquito


link shortened via TinyUrl https://tinyurl.com/y3gsfrss
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: hoosierhick on 19 March 2019, 07:15:42
Because you can never have too many pictures of the Moquito...

(https://i.imgur.com/upXEjXt.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Fat Guy on 19 March 2019, 07:26:05
Or the German's abortive attempt to copy it, the Focke-Wulf Ta 154 Moskito.


(https://www.avionslegendaires.net/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/Gta154-index.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Cannonshop on 19 March 2019, 08:05:25
And now for something from the other side...

What is it about that camo that gets me going?

(https://i.postimg.cc/wx7CrCNj/rEPemhi.jpg)

It's a lovely shade on an absolutely beautiful airframe?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: grimlock1 on 19 March 2019, 08:27:16

whereas I am totally ignorant
Hell to the no, man.
I respectfully disagree with both you.  I've read posts from both you, and while we may have differing viewpoints, based on our own knowledge, experience, and research, you have devoted time to study the topic. That alone puts you a step above 90% of the population.  Maybe you can't launch into the a pro/con between tailerons and flaperons. On the other hand, you don't act like an expert. You ask intelligent questions. You listen to responses, which are at a higher level than most of the population can follow.

I submit that you are closer to the middle of the Kruger-Dunning curve than the left side.



Wow, this is weird.  Don't most arguments on the internet boil down to "I'm not stupid.  You're stupid"?  And we are bickering over "I'm not smart.  Yes, you are."  Weird.

Or the German's abortive attempt to copy it, the Focke-Wulf Ta 154 Moskito.
(https://www.avionslegendaires.net/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/Gta154-index.jpg)
Were they trying to turn it into a radar bird? 

It's a lovely shade on an absolutely beautiful airframe?
Maybe its because I didn't grow up seeing them on aircraft in American popular media but canards always look cool and exotic to me.   The way the nose, fuselage and wing all blend together on the Su-27 and its descendants is sleek and sexy.  The MIG-29 has nice lines, although the wing to LERX blend is a bit blocky.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: truetanker on 19 March 2019, 13:55:04
Hey buddy Who you calling smart?!

My derriere said it, not me! Honest...

TT
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: glitterboy2098 on 19 March 2019, 20:20:32
The B-1 is a damn sexy airplane that has spent the last 40 odd years looking for a mission. The B-2 took over as the first strike of the bomber wing, before it ever got off the ground. There were never enough B-1s or B-2s to put the B-52s out to pasture.  It's a beautiful plane but what does it do better than anybody else?
it can break mach 1 and flies like a fighter. which is all the USAF really wants.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: DaveMac on 20 March 2019, 04:51:46
Because you can never have too many pictures of the Moquito...

(https://i.imgur.com/upXEjXt.jpg)

As of January 2019 there are now four airworthy Mosquitos

The latest is PZ474, which to me is the best looking of the lot

https://aerodynamicmedia.com/pz474-report/

Never thought I'd see that after the loss of RR299 back in 2006...





Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Bedwyr on 20 March 2019, 10:58:43
Guys, I toasted some material that's under moderator review. We frequently pull related content so that the conversation doesn't get broken up. Later we'll inform users that their posts got pulled in the interests of disclosure. Continue the discussion from here please. Kindly reload the thread so I don't have to keep pulling out fraying threads.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: I am Belch II on 20 March 2019, 11:33:00
I was very happy to see the Mosquito when I could of, such a sleek plane. Also a A-26 Invader was there that day. Two very neat planes to me.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Kidd on 20 March 2019, 11:47:44
I like the Gripen NG, I think it could really be something. Unfortunately it remains overshadowed by the F-16V

(https://i.postimg.cc/Rhg2D2m6/Saab-Gripen-NG.png)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Colt Ward on 20 March 2019, 12:49:04
Was that plane in the old Jane's ATF?  I had a blast flying the F-22, learned to hate the -35 (I think it was in there), found the F-117 was limited, loved the B-2, and played with some of the other experimentals.  I also seem to recall it had this . . .

(https://i.pinimg.com/736x/f9/3a/81/f93a8162034fa2afc79cbca1b6b83ea4--fighter-jets-fly.jpg)

Then you have this for forward swept . . .
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_i0OznbEOEU8/SZlB7pjTD7I/AAAAAAAAAZo/lj9Nn5K8-J0/s400/su-47.2.bmp)
Didn't this plane crash at a European show?

I think the Su-47 was where Hasbro got . . .

(http://www.hisstank.com/forum/attachments/g-i-joe-toy-reviews-quick-feedback/14442d1222193448-modern-era-conquest-x-30-review-profile.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: grimlock1 on 20 March 2019, 13:56:15
Was that plane in the old Jane's ATF?  I had a blast flying the F-22, learned to hate the -35 (I think it was in there), found the F-117 was limited, loved the B-2, and played with some of the other experimentals.  I also seem to recall it had this . . .

(https://i.pinimg.com/736x/f9/3a/81/f93a8162034fa2afc79cbca1b6b83ea4--fighter-jets-fly.jpg)

Then you have this for forward swept . . .
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_i0OznbEOEU8/SZlB7pjTD7I/AAAAAAAAAZo/lj9Nn5K8-J0/s400/su-47.2.bmp)
Didn't this plane crash at a European show?

I think the Su-47 was where Hasbro got . . .

(http://www.hisstank.com/forum/attachments/g-i-joe-toy-reviews-quick-feedback/14442d1222193448-modern-era-conquest-x-30-review-profile.jpg)
Hasbro got there back in 86-87.
I just noticed that both the X-29 and the Su-47 have a very pronounced leading edge root extension.  It makes both of them more a W-wing (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wing_configuration#Sweep_variation_along_span) than a true forward swept wing. I wonder if is there more for aerodynamic or structural reasons....
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Colt Ward on 20 March 2019, 14:39:37
My understanding is structural shading to aerodynamics . . . it was possible to flex the wings 'down' going into a high-G turn and IIRC there was something about the vortexes off the wings causing some problems.  I know the X-29 was more a proof of concept but I would swear there was a fighter with forward swept wings that was rejected b/c it was a cooperative job with West Germany.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 20 March 2019, 14:42:33
It's amazing what you can do with an F-5.  (Okay, F-20, but still)

Purely at a guess, I'd say both for the LERX on the -47 and -29.  They aid in stall recovery, which is a potential Thing for FSWs with wingtip stalls being both generally unpredictable and asynchronous.  Apparently the desired effect is to have the wingtip flex (yay aeroelastics!) reducing angle of attack at the tip and departing the stall condition, shifting it to the wing root.

That said, there's also that very flexing as well - all the stress of an FSW is out at the tips, which means it needs some solid construction.  Fatigue stresses love corners to bits, so having a partially built-up structure at the wing root gives more strength to the wing.  Add in the stall characteristics and it's a double bonus.

Looking at the Ju-287 testbed on the wiki, it mentions wing warping as excessive flexing of the wings - and looking close at the design, it clearly doesn't have the LERX options put in.  (Not invented until the 50s with the F-5, alas)
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/ec/Modellphoto_Ju287V1_1.png/640px-Modellphoto_Ju287V1_1.png)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Cannonshop on 20 March 2019, 22:23:08
My understanding is structural shading to aerodynamics . . . it was possible to flex the wings 'down' going into a high-G turn and IIRC there was something about the vortexes off the wings causing some problems.  I know the X-29 was more a proof of concept but I would swear there was a fighter with forward swept wings that was rejected b/c it was a cooperative job with West Germany.

X-29 was a NASA project, the joint project with West Germany was a vectored-thrust job using paddles instead of a moving nozzle from the same period, but followed a more conventional wing layout.  (both were profiled by Smithsonian Air&Space magazine in the late eighties).  the west german coop never got to a full airframe, they stopped at scale models.

The X-29 was built off an F-5, btw, and featured an all-composite wing structure and required active computer assistance to fly, being around 35% unstable vs. the F-16's 15% or so.

not sure what happened with the Berkut, but the Soviets/Russians got the closest to building a production fighter using forward swept wing layout.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 20 March 2019, 23:11:21
The -47 was a neat design; she was a BIG aircraft with a large fuel and weapons payload.  The Russians apparently selected the 1.44 design from MiG instead, but Sukhoi pushed the prototypes through on their own for flight testing.  They've got an FSW trainer now, dinky little thing, but it's a turnout from the program.  Should also be pointed out that the Su-47 is hardly a stealth design, more in line with the Super Bug than the Raptor.

I also wonder how much of the development was pushed into PAKFA; main wings are different but they're both bigass pancakes of aircraft with wide-spread engines and those canards.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Daryk on 21 March 2019, 03:10:17
I don't know if it was the X-29, but there's an F-18 down in the Air and Space museum of Hampton, VA that has some of those thrust paddles...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: hoosierhick on 21 March 2019, 07:25:51
X-29 was a NASA project, the joint project with West Germany was a vectored-thrust job using paddles instead of a moving nozzle from the same period, but followed a more conventional wing layout.  (both were profiled by Smithsonian Air&Space magazine in the late eighties).  the west german coop never got to a full airframe, they stopped at scale models.


The joint project with West Germany was the X-31.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: grimlock1 on 21 March 2019, 08:46:47
I don't know if it was the X-29, but there's an F-18 down in the Air and Space museum of Hampton, VA that has some of those thrust paddles...
Are you thinking the F/A-18 HARV?(https://www.nasa.gov/sites/default/files/styles/side_image/public/images/309908main_EC89-0096-206_full.jpg?itok=o5CW5JNd)

The -47 was a neat design; she was a BIG aircraft with a large fuel and weapons payload.  The Russians apparently selected the 1.44 design from MiG instead, but Sukhoi pushed the prototypes through on their own for flight testing.  They've got an FSW trainer now, dinky little thing, but it's a turnout from the program.  Should also be pointed out that the Su-47 is hardly a stealth design, more in line with the Super Bug than the Raptor.

I also wonder how much of the development was pushed into PAKFA; main wings are different but they're both bigass pancakes of aircraft with wide-spread engines and those canards.
Canards are enough of a problem for stealth without the FSW.  There was a Popular Mechanics article about 18-19 years back that Northrop-Grumman filed a patent for a variable geometry swing wing that could have a stealthy, low drag cruising configuration. (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/68/NorthropSwitchblade_PatentDrawing_1.png/220px-NorthropSwitchblade_PatentDrawing_1.png)
So far as I know the only thing that ever came out of it was the movie, Stealth.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 21 March 2019, 09:17:04
Switchblade was a neat idea but I can't help but point out the leading edge of the wing is supposed to shift forward and retract into the sides of the airframe; that's gotta have all kinds of weird pockets and chines to make it work.  The F-14 and company get away with it because they're only tucking the innermost ends of the flaps in; this would be the whole thicker front wing segment.

Still, the production photo was great, and I can only imagine there'd be enough bricks crapped in the Kremlin to build a whole new fortress had a photo like that shown up ten years earlier...

As far as vectored thrust goes, anyone know why F-15 ACTIVE never bore fruit?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: HobbesHurlbut on 21 March 2019, 10:47:24
Wasn't F-14 considered a hangar queen in USN?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 21 March 2019, 12:24:32
It had its problems early on but the B model's GE F110 changed a lot of that.  It was also a damn rugged bird, pic attached managed to land - on a CARRIER no less!

Besides, how many other aircraft can signal their own turns?
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a5/Grumman_F-14_Tomcat_SDASM.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Colt Ward on 21 March 2019, 12:42:04
Anyone know any pilot stories for USN pilots who started on Phantoms and switched over to the 'Cats?  I would be interesting to see how they felt about the differences in the birds.

I think it will also be interesting to hear from Tomcat pilots who transitioned to Hornets and then got stuck with the -35 for 'superiority.'
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 21 March 2019, 13:51:35
Cats went out in 2006; anyone still in flying billets wouldn't have had too many years on the F-14 before they were retired.  Probably a few latecomers, but not many, especially with the losses in flight personnel.  Military Times:
Quote
* The Navy has similar problems with its fighter pilot manning levels, GAO said. In 2013, the Navy was 57 fighter pilots short, or 12 percent, at the completion of their first operational tour at sea, which is completed between three and six years of service. By 2017, that gap had swelled to 136 fighter pilots, or 26 percent short of what the Navy was authorized, GAO said.
And that's just 2013-2017, not 2006-2019.  A lot of the -14 drivers that are still in are probably command or staff folks now.  The in-seat lifetime is short, sadly.

That said, as for stories, I found this (https://www.quora.com/What-was-the-reaction-of-F-14-pilots-when-the-F-18-was-introduced) - and it's got links to more things.  I didn't see anything NSFW in it, but I'll raise that possibility since it's supposed to be military pilots talking **** about anything that wasn't their perfect airplane.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: grimlock1 on 21 March 2019, 16:46:24
Switchblade was a neat idea but I can't help but point out the leading edge of the wing is supposed to shift forward and retract into the sides of the airframe; that's gotta have all kinds of weird pockets and chines to make it work.  The F-14 and company get away with it because they're only tucking the innermost ends of the flaps in; this would be the whole thicker front wing segment.

Still, the production photo was great, and I can only imagine there'd be enough bricks crapped in the Kremlin to build a whole new fortress had a photo like that shown up ten years earlier...

As far as vectored thrust goes, anyone know why F-15 ACTIVE never bore fruit?
It sort of did, with F-22.  F-15 ACTIVE flew in 1988, so the first new fighter since then was Raptor.   I don't think they ever took the governors off the vectoring gimbals either.  The report read something like, "Turn rates achieved with thrust vectoring limited to X% of maximum range were obscene, and no one was quite crazy enough to try flying it with full vectoring turned on."  I'm paraphrasing.

As to the gruman switchblade, the boffins would certainly have their work cut out for them.  Getting all the edges to line up so you're still stealthy is going to be a bear. You need a wing that works in two different directions!  The pivots for the wings would have to go around the engines, meaning it has to be bigger, meaning heavier.  On that note, the actuator system to move those wings would have to be a BEAST.   Just getting that folding wing to work aerodynamically would be suck like a Hoover, but doing that and keeping stealth?  There's only one or two people I hate enough to wish that job on.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: worktroll on 21 March 2019, 17:25:09
Looking at the Ju-287 testbed on the wiki, it mentions wing warping as excessive flexing of the wings - and looking close at the design, it clearly doesn't have the LERX options put in.  (Not invented until the 50s with the F-5, alas)
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/ec/Modellphoto_Ju287V1_1.png/640px-Modellphoto_Ju287V1_1.png)

Note that the engine pods under the wings were specifically placed to prevent excessive wing warping, just by weight. And the idea got used by Boeing engineers on the B-47 with its two sets of pods - not FSW, but allowed thinner wing construction. Probably a factor for the BUFF also, but don't remember it being called out as specifically as with the B-47.

W.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Fat Guy on 04 April 2019, 21:21:44
Lockheed Martin has gone Russian and redesignated their F-16 variant proposal for India's MMRCA the F-21.

(https://combataircraft.keypublishing.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/5/2019/03/3-1024x683.png)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: PsihoKekec on 05 April 2019, 00:35:44
F-16 used to be a beautiful aircraft.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Sharpnel on 05 April 2019, 01:28:02
F-16 used to be a beautiful aircraft.
I think it still is.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 05 April 2019, 03:03:04
Shame the F-119 is too big to cram into the engine bay of a Viper.  Imagine a Raptor's thrust-vectoring nozzle and 10-15% higher thrust than engines used in the F-16 right now; she'd be a wicked nimble little thing in a dogfight.

I always liked the F-16, but I have a soft spot in my heart for smaller, lighter aircraft. F-5, G.91, F-16, love 'em all.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Ruger on 05 April 2019, 03:28:56
I think it still is.

As do I.

Ruger
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: grimlock1 on 05 April 2019, 11:04:08
Shame the F-119 is too big to cram into the engine bay of a Viper.  Imagine a Raptor's thrust-vectoring nozzle and 10-15% higher thrust than engines used in the F-16 right now; she'd be a wicked nimble little thing in a dogfight.

I always liked the F-16, but I have a soft spot in my heart for smaller, lighter aircraft. F-5, G.91, F-16, love 'em all.

Fitting small engines into big spaces is easy.  Fitting big engines into tight spaces is hard, but judicious use of a wiz-wheel brings you back to the first case.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: I am Belch II on 05 April 2019, 13:27:04
The F-16E/F models have a much larger engine than the orgional F-16. At least 50% higher than the A-model. The CFT on the F-16s E/F are much better for the range. The newer models are better then the C models in the US Air Force. Its almost like a Super Viper like the Super Hornet.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: truetanker on 05 April 2019, 15:25:03
F-16 used to be a beautiful aircraft.

One word: Wingman series by Mack Maloney.

TT
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: glitterboy2098 on 05 April 2019, 16:36:34
The -47 was a neat design; she was a BIG aircraft with a large fuel and weapons payload.  The Russians apparently selected the 1.44 design from MiG instead, but Sukhoi pushed the prototypes through on their own for flight testing.  They've got an FSW trainer now, dinky little thing, but it's a turnout from the program.
honestly i'm curious to see how that turns out down the line.. because why get a FSW trainer if you aren't going to have combat fighters with comparable aerodynamics for the trained pilots to be using?

though the unmanned drone version they announced (the AR-10 'Argument'..) might be interesting, since it probably would be armed, suggesting the trainer could be marketed as a light fighter.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Cannonshop on 05 April 2019, 18:56:24
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/85/02/7b/85027be466eaade91d3261d027534fcb.jpg)

Moar Airplanes.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Bedwyr on 05 April 2019, 19:35:17
In terms of knowledge that the U2 spy plane is basically the love child of an F-104 Starfighter and a glider, I am today years old.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Cannonshop on 05 April 2019, 20:00:06
In terms of knowledge that the U2 spy plane is basically the love child of an F-104 Starfighter and a glider, I am today years old.
(https://media.pri.org/s3fs-public/styles/story_main/public/story/images/Tr1a-95rs-alc.jpg?itok=8NfT2pjl) a day without learning is a day wasted, Bedwyr.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Bedwyr on 05 April 2019, 21:23:44
I think I was thrown off all this time by the stubbier nose.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: chanman on 05 April 2019, 21:30:27
I think I was thrown off all this time by the stubbier nose.

It wasn't the normal tail or existance of honest-to-goodness wings?  :D
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Bedwyr on 05 April 2019, 21:44:07
It wasn't the normal tail or existance of honest-to-goodness wings?  :D

Ha, no. A sharp nose would have brought out that Starfighter goodness pretty clearly to me.

In other news, Scott Manley of Kerbal fame kindly put up a piece about the A-12 Oxcart on sight at Palmdale on vacation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qQSRMKzGbJo

A nice discussion about the early early days of the pre-Blackbird.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: hoosierhick on 09 April 2019, 13:49:51
The last of the Doolittle Raiders has passed.  https://www.airforcetimes.com/news/your-air-force/2019/04/09/a-legend-passes-dick-cole-last-of-the-doolittle-raiders-dies-at-103/ (https://www.airforcetimes.com/news/your-air-force/2019/04/09/a-legend-passes-dick-cole-last-of-the-doolittle-raiders-dies-at-103/)

Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: HobbesHurlbut on 09 April 2019, 15:20:25
o7
In the Darkest Hour for USA in the war, the raid gaave us hope and showed us the Imperial Forces werent invulnerable.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Colt Ward on 09 April 2019, 15:23:40
Hmm . . . 3SW tribute mercs, "Little's Raiders" . . .
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Cannonshop on 09 April 2019, 16:17:21
well, it's the wrong model, and the wrong paint scheme...(https://s.hdnux.com/photos/27/24/56/6114196/3/920x920.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Colt Ward on 09 April 2019, 16:37:39
Lol, couple weeks back we had the old warbirds in town.  Its awesome when they do show up b/c they use the small airport near my house . . . and we are on the approach & take off paths.  This year they had a few fighters- I think I saw a Mustang, but had two big bombers- year before just one.  So like last year my 2 y/o got to see a B-17 come flying over on one side of the house lowering the landing gear . . . when moments before a B-24 had been lifting off on the other side.

(https://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2643/3910669845_aae54532c5_b.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Fat Guy on 09 April 2019, 18:27:52
That's the B-17 they painted up as the Memphis Belle for the movie.

The original finally went on display at the National Museum of the United States Air Force last spring.

(https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1/2018/05/17/05/wire-2989308-1526530892-994_634x422.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: HobbesHurlbut on 09 April 2019, 20:36:42
https://warfarehistorynetwork.com/wp-content/uploads/WQ-Doolittle-LEAD-4C-Sum12.jpg
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 09 April 2019, 23:57:09
Lol, couple weeks back we had the old warbirds in town.  Its awesome when they do show up b/c they use the small airport near my house . . . and we are on the approach & take off paths.  This year they had a few fighters- I think I saw a Mustang, but had two big bombers- year before just one.  So like last year my 2 y/o got to see a B-17 come flying over on one side of the house lowering the landing gear . . . when moments before a B-24 had been lifting off on the other side.
HAH!  When I lived in El Cajon, for the Gillespie Field air show in May each year, I had the same thing.  Just over half a mile from the fence around the airport and spot-on the approach path.  What was freakin' glorious about it was that each year, to announce the show had come to town, they'd have a B-24 and B-17 (almost always Sentimental Journey, but I think they swapped another in once) do a freaking thunder run at no more than 200 feet to wake everyone up.  I'm not kidding, and you do NOT get a lot of time when you first hear those monster Cyclones and Twin Wasps at high throttle to rush outside and see the whole train coming.  The bombers, usually a b-29 joining them (not in the thunder run) and then a whole host of fighters and other aircraft, once even an EW connie and one of the last flying He-111 clones (back in the 90s, before it splashed).  The Northrup Banana, fighters galore, all of it.  Loved every year.

Doubly so since it was always within a week of my birthday.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Easy on 10 April 2019, 01:04:58
cleanup
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 10 April 2019, 02:25:42
Used to live on Plumeria drive, right opposite Pepper Drive elementary school and right up Pepper from the airport.  I saw the 14 flyover and crash; the crewman who died ejected not far from my friend's place.  And yeah, demolition derby as well as a dirt racetrack for stock cars right there at the airfield, back in the day, plus motorcycle races and stuff.  Hell, that was where Wino Willie went and famously joined a race in '46; IIRC my uncles used to ride with some of those biker groups in the 70s.  So damn many memories.

You can never go home again...but sometimes you meet someone who remembers as well.  Always did want to learn how to fly.

Is the CAF group still there out of the hangars on the northeast end?  Last time I was there they had an AT-6 and a little AF museum that had a few of the usual jets plus the front 40 feet of a BUFF in a hangar, and doing restoration work on an F4U.  This was back just before I left, a good 20 years ago.  Google maps says the place is still there, as of 2015 at least.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Elmoth on 10 April 2019, 06:38:01
Hmm . . . 3SW tribute mercs, "Little's Raiders" . . .

A Leopard CV with ASF specializing in sneak attacks (LAM mechs anyone?) could certainly be the Hornet Raiders, Dolittle's Raiders or Little Raiders.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Colt Ward on 10 April 2019, 09:06:45
Yeah, nothing modern sounds like those engines . . . last year I had the door open listening, and when I heard the B-17 (Aluminum Overcast) coming I took him outside so he could see it fly by.  Its just a distinct sound to those bomber engines.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: CrossfirePilot on 10 April 2019, 10:09:06
Yeah, nothing modern sounds like those engines . . . last year I had the door open listening, and when I heard the B-17 (Aluminum Overcast) coming I took him outside so he could see it fly by.  Its just a distinct sound to those bomber engines.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: CrossfirePilot on 10 April 2019, 10:13:35
Yeah, nothing modern sounds like those engines . . . last year I had the door open listening, and when I heard the B-17 (Aluminum Overcast) coming I took him outside so he could see it fly by.  Its just a distinct sound to those bomber engines.

When we have our local airshow we are treated to usually having a B-24 and B-17.  There is also a warbird lane on the field and a group of T6s that practice formation flying weekly during the summer months.  I am always awed by the sound of 4-8 of those engines overhead.  I can only imagine what it was like to be on the Cliffs of Dover to hear up to 1000 planes flying overhead on their way deep into the Reich.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Easy on 10 April 2019, 10:59:24
cleanup
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Easy on 10 April 2019, 11:41:51
cleanup
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: hoosierhick on 11 April 2019, 19:57:24
I'll repost a link to Youtube that I posted in the "Last Doolittle Raider has passed" thread.  It's a flyover of 4 B-25s doing the missing man formation at the 2012 Doolittle Raiders reunion at the Air Force Museum.  The only noise is wind noise and 8 Wright R-2600s.  I'll try to find the other video I took that day of around 20 B-25s flying over, too.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vlSggAH25wI&feature=youtu.be&t=25 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vlSggAH25wI&feature=youtu.be&t=25)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 12 April 2019, 05:17:54
https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2019/04/dutch-f-16-takes-cannon-fire-from-itself/

So does he get to claim that as a damage on his combat log?  Paint half an F-16's silhouette by his name on the nose?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 12 April 2019, 13:53:28
Does he get a medal for shooting down an F-16 with his cannon?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 12 April 2019, 16:25:32
Does he get a medal for shooting down an F-16 with his cannon?
He's got a new callsign, for damn sure!
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Dave Talley on 12 April 2019, 16:27:49
He's got a new callsign, for damn sure!
idiot?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: I am Belch II on 12 April 2019, 16:30:43
That's not a good kill ratio when you shoot down your own planes.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: CrossfirePilot on 12 April 2019, 22:35:21
He's got a new callsign, for damn sure!

Numbskull? zero zero?

Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Luciora on 12 April 2019, 23:15:32
Not the first time it's happened.

https://www.popularmechanics.com/military/aviation/a27967/the-fighter-plane-that-shot-itself-down/
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Orin J. on 12 April 2019, 23:16:52
https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2019/04/dutch-f-16-takes-cannon-fire-from-itself/

So does he get to claim that as a damage on his combat log?  Paint half an F-16's silhouette by his name on the nose?

i think he gets to hear jokes about how he likes it all over his face for the foreseeable future.  :crazy:
hopefully they'll look into needs for some extra training in regards to the whole velocity thing.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: chanman on 13 April 2019, 00:27:10
Dutch Vipers have fired their Vulcans at Dutch Vipers twice now, and so far, they've won every time!
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 13 April 2019, 17:53:59
And Mriya is no longer the king of the skies.

https://twitter.com/thejackbeyer/status/1117067150169034752

Go Stratolauncher!
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: I am Belch II on 14 April 2019, 06:56:32
The AN-225 is a much heavier plane than the StraoLaunch and can carry more. The Strtolaunch does have the biggest wingspan by almost 100 feet. 
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: CrossfirePilot on 14 April 2019, 13:23:35
Dutch Vipers have fired their Vulcans at Dutch Vipers twice now, and so far, they've won every time!

Maybe this is the start of the Dutch civil war and he wasn't able to pick a side?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: chanman on 14 April 2019, 17:54:04
Maybe this is the start of the Dutch civil war and he wasn't able to pick a side?

I just figured the pilots were super eager to get into their new F-35s and are just accelerating the decommissioning of their old F-16s
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Colt Ward on 19 April 2019, 23:57:06
Nose art is not dead . . . though I do not see any pinups.  The Widowmaker is nice though . . .

(https://i2.wp.com/theaviationist.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/Nose-art-F-15E.jpg?resize=678%2C381&ssl=1)

Full article-https://theaviationist.com/2019/04/15/take-a-look-at-the-f-15e-strike-eagles-returning-home-from-oir-deployment-with-unique-nicknames-and-nose-arts/?fbclid=IwAR1337kvLyCkuLJ1E5LYF2j4bhV-AdPip0oRWJQt1IPLK-lLf6bCzTA0ros (https://theaviationist.com/2019/04/15/take-a-look-at-the-f-15e-strike-eagles-returning-home-from-oir-deployment-with-unique-nicknames-and-nose-arts/?fbclid=IwAR1337kvLyCkuLJ1E5LYF2j4bhV-AdPip0oRWJQt1IPLK-lLf6bCzTA0ros)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Feenix74 on 20 April 2019, 09:44:58
Nice.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: I am Belch II on 20 April 2019, 19:02:19
Glad some of the nose art is back.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Colt Ward on 21 April 2019, 00:07:36
My toddler had a great day playing outside all day.  Unfortunately the short window he was NOT outside in the front yard he missed something great.  A B-25 Mitchell flying into the same airport the other WWII warbirds show up yearly.  Again, those engines just have such a different roar compared to what is flying today.  My father-in-law said it was headed to San Antonio, which I assume is where the last member of the Raid was being memorialized.  I know my sister who lives on one of the SAC AFBs up in the Dakotas said the base had planned to celebrate the anniversary of the Doolittle Raid this last week during the local spring break and host the last surviving member.  Unfortunately some of the planes and groups flying in had changed plans for his memorial- so its likely the plane was flying south from the Dakotas.

This actually might be the one we saw, I missed the nose art-
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-xTuXRUWdP6Q/T_TxNxzeg-I/AAAAAAAAAsE/Gxie5Z7hnZ8/s1600/B-25.jpg)

Since I did not see any pictures on the 18th of the raid . . .

(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/cgK9jADNHgY/hqdefault.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 21 April 2019, 06:40:26
Gorgeous.  It's fine, drag him to a museum someday!

I always did like the F-16 myself...

(https://media.defense.gov/2007/Nov/23/2000427719/780/780/0/071123-F-9876D-111.JPG)

And often wondered whether it'd be possible to replace the M61 with a DEFA, perhaps, or maybe even one on each side.  It's not like ingesting gases would be a problem, being on the other side of the plane from the intake, and it'd make ground attack interesting.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: chanman on 21 April 2019, 15:58:09
Actually, I think a handful of .30 or .50 gun pods on the pylons would be more era-appropriate  ;)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 01 May 2019, 04:29:08
Rather tragic bit of news, the last of the Bananas crashed last week, killing its pilot.  N-9MB, the only then-extant flying wing design put together by Northrop as a flying scale mockup of what would have been the YB-35, crashed at Norco state prison.  The aircraft was said by a witness to have been surprisingly loud just before it went down and that the pilot was very experienced in the aircraft.  Points to some form of engine failure, I'd think, but it's still under investigation.

I've touched that plane before; it's the one I mentioned earlier in the Gillespie Field air show post.  I probably met the pilot, too; damn.

Just damn.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Feenix74 on 01 May 2019, 06:15:18
That is tragic news. Deepest sympathies to the friends and family of the pilot.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 01 May 2019, 08:56:11
Video from the scene's unrecognizeable; there's some small yellow scraps and then just a straight black smear on the ground.  She hit at high speed virtually straight down, right into the prison yard.  At least it was quick for her pilot, and thankfully no one on the ground.

Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Fat Guy on 01 May 2019, 22:22:55
The F-35A has made it's combat debut.

An image released by the USAF of one of two F-35As enroute to its first combat mission show the aircraft configured for non-stealthy operations, with externally-mounted AIM-9X Sidewinders and Luneburg lens radar reflectors.

(https://www.janes.com/images/assets/186/88186/p1745636_main.jpg)

US Air Forces Central Command (AFCENT) announced on 30 April that two aircraft conducted an air strike at Wadi Ashai, Iraq, in support of Combined Joint Task Force - Operation Inherent Resolve.

According to AFCENT, the aircraft conducted the airstrike using a joint direct attack munition (JDAM) to strike an entrenched Islamic State tunnel network and weapons cache deep in the Hamrin Mountains, a location able to threaten friendly forces.

The Marines already popped the B's cherry, now the Air Force has done so with the A.

Come on Navy, get your shit together and bomb somebody with the C already!
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Feenix74 on 01 May 2019, 22:45:35
J-Damned!  :D

Great to see a project that I had the smallest bit part to play in go operational.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 02 May 2019, 14:03:51
Actually the A has drawn blood since last May; the Israelis were the first to put it to use against Iranian & Syrian air defenses.  Not much word on followup usage, but they said its debut went well so I suspect they're keeping quiet about any further sorties.

Is the C finished with certifications yet?  I thought they were still flight-testing things.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Fat Guy on 02 May 2019, 15:09:04
D'oh! Forgot about the Israelis.

And no, the C hasn't reached IOC yet. The Navy is taking their time since they already have a fighter in production.

Couldn't resist the snarky comment though.  ;)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 02 May 2019, 18:19:18
It surprises me that LockMart isn't pursuing the DSI for the F-16 series.  I suppose they'd be concerned about sales cutting into F-35 numbers, since you'd be improving the forward radar signature of the aircraft while maintaining solid performance.  The fact it'd be lighter and much less complicated (i.e. much lower maintenance reuqiremenets) is a big point in its favor.

Wonder if there were ever a model kit of this.  Now I'm REALLY wanting to see something like a 16V fitted with this inlet plus EOTS mounts and a TV engine exhaust.  It would be a neat little thing, I think...
(https://rumaniamilitary.files.wordpress.com/2012/02/2010_f16_dsi_02_1267828237_7281.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: DoctorMonkey on 03 May 2019, 16:15:19
a few pictures taken off Facebook


the Tornado is seen flying at a scarily high altitude for an RAF strike fighter
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Ruger on 03 May 2019, 16:49:57
a few pictures taken off Facebook

That's not a F16 with that B2.

Ruger
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: DoctorMonkey on 03 May 2019, 17:01:52
Oops
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Fat Guy on 09 May 2019, 13:16:54
  Now I'm REALLY wanting to see something like a 16V fitted with this inlet plus EOTS mounts and a TV engine exhaust.  It would be a neat little thing, I think...


From Patlabor 2:

(https://i.pinimg.com/736x/75/52/de/7552de84c3416256d921e85eca265ab1.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Deadborder on 09 May 2019, 18:28:56
A somewhat amusing mis-guess about the future, given that the F-16s evolution has basically gone in the opposite direction.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 09 May 2019, 19:33:28
I'm guessing they were looking at other programs outside of the ATF when they created the movie (the F-22 won in 1991, Patlabor 2 came out in 1993) because the art department also came up with an improved F-15J ACTIVE as a combat aircraft.  How would those trapezoidal flaps and rudders handle the airflow, anyway?

Have an extra dip into the world of the What If with the Tomukatto too, I suppose.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: I am Belch II on 09 May 2019, 21:11:31
That F15 was a idea many years ago. I guess the Russians liked it and turned it into the Su33 and other mods to the Su27
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 15 May 2019, 09:28:06
More fun with what-if...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Colt Ward on 15 May 2019, 10:11:32
I guess the artist mourns the Starfighter . . . for me, it will be the Tomcat.  The GI Joe toy, the movie Top Gun, watching Robotech as a kid on my B&W TV . . . too me, its the 80s Cold War fighter and the ability to carry AIM-54 Phoenix was awesome!

But it does raise some interesting theory-crafting about updating stuff that is sitting in the boneyards.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: I am Belch II on 15 May 2019, 12:02:02
There has always been talk of the F14 being reborn again to fly in active service. Its performance range and payload is much much better than the F18 Super Hornet. What I remember the F14 was very much a hanger queen and the crash rate of the planes was really high. But most have been scrapped so its just not going to happen.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Colt Ward on 15 May 2019, 12:12:49
Oh its nostalgia . . . just like another generation loves that flying brick, the F4.

Would I love to see a F-14 II produced as our next carrier bird?  Sure . . . but even leaving aside the F-35 stinker, IIRC some discussion, it would never be a real Tomcat II since stealth & variable geometry wings do not go together to well.  Have I really mentioned how much I hate the doctrinal reasoning for the -35?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: DoctorMonkey on 15 May 2019, 12:23:22
There has always been talk of the F14 being reborn again to fly in active service. Its performance range and payload is much much better than the F18 Super Hornet. What I remember the F14 was very much a hanger queen and the crash rate of the planes was really high. But most have been scrapped so its just not going to happen.


The F-14 was initially let down by engines and then became a hanger queen, the over-engineering of that generation of aircraft meant it would have had a viable career lugging bombs etc but the airframes were needing a lot more maintenance than the F-18 per flight hour.


Oh its nostalgia . . . just like another generation loves that flying brick, the F4.

Would I love to see a F-14 II produced as our next carrier bird?  Sure . . . but even leaving aside the F-35 stinker, IIRC some discussion, it would never be a real Tomcat II since stealth & variable geometry wings do not go together to well.  Have I really mentioned how much I hate the doctrinal reasoning for the -35?


I read on Wikipedia (not the most reliable source of information) that the Israelis are looking into a 2 seat F-35A and I do worry that the RAF has a looming lack of 2 seat combat aircraft with the shift to EuroFighter Typhoon and F-35B as the primary combat aircraft
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: CrossfirePilot on 15 May 2019, 19:35:15
I guess the artist mourns the Starfighter . . . for me, it will be the Tomcat.  The GI Joe toy, the movie Top Gun, watching Robotech as a kid on my B&W TV . . . too me, its the 80s Cold War fighter and the ability to carry AIM-54 Phoenix was awesome!

But it does raise some interesting theory-crafting about updating stuff that is sitting in the boneyards.

You forgot when the F14s took on a couple Japanese Zeros on Dec 6, 1941

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gChU-mGeBaM

That was the point that I fell in love at the tender age of 6.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Colt Ward on 15 May 2019, 20:50:21
Yeah, and the one I was thinking about was the raid on Libya when they escorted some A-6s . . . same time I was watching Robotech.  The planes are real!
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 16 May 2019, 02:20:50
Unfortunately the Tomcat's crippled by the one thing that makes it possible, that giant titanium box in the middle that keeps the swing-wing together with the rest of the airframe.  It's also a major stress point, and because it's effectively one giant piece any fatigue means you've got to replace the spine of the bird...and it's not like titanium's easy to work with or inexpensive. 

Iran had, supposedly, 77 aircraft in 1980 after the Shah fell and the Americans pulled out.  By 1985 they were down to 25 in flying (not combat) condition for an air-parade over the capital, and rumored less than that were actually combat-effective.  Whether or not there's more than a handful still capable's a good question; Iran's been reticient in paying the money to have folks come in and rebuild things and keeps trying to do it on their own.  Case in point, they only just recently finished modernizing and repairing a batch of Su-22s they got from the Great Iraqi Air Force Bugout...the first time.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 16 May 2019, 09:04:59
Slap me silly and call me daddy, that's HOT!

https://defence-blog.com/news/boeing-shows-how-high-speed-apache-gunship-will-look-like.html

build this build this build this build this build this build this build this build this
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: grimlock1 on 16 May 2019, 09:30:21
I guess the artist mourns the Starfighter . . . for me, it will be the Tomcat.  The GI Joe toy, the movie Top Gun, watching Robotech as a kid on my B&W TV . . . too me, its the 80s Cold War fighter and the ability to carry AIM-54 Phoenix was awesome!

But it does raise some interesting theory-crafting about updating stuff that is sitting in the boneyards.
Nothing moves off the F-14s at the Boneyard without 2 Congressional orders, countersigned by God.  I tried to requisition one of the OBOGS when I was interning at NASA. Naval Intelligence won't let anything off those planes because Iran still has them.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Colt Ward on 16 May 2019, 09:33:59
The main gun seems a joke . . . BUT, I see they are using the tail rotor set up the Navy was testing over the last several decades for their ASW choppers.

Blackhawk mod-
(http://i63.fastpic.ru/big/2014/0511/3d/0f24e73fb5f6fb85be4ceaff9fde0e3d.jpg)

(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/g3U8Dyc4knY/maxresdefault.jpg)

I cannot seem to find pictures of the recent Navy choppers where they used that sort of tail boom, which was smaller than the Blackhawk above . . . so its been around for the last 20-30 years IIRC, but its never been used on a production model.  Makes me think that thing is like the 'concept cars' you see at the shows that never look like the production model.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: HobbesHurlbut on 16 May 2019, 09:42:29
There has always been talk of the F14 being reborn again to fly in active service. Its performance range and payload is much much better than the F18 Super Hornet. What I remember the F14 was very much a hanger queen and the crash rate of the planes was really high. But most have been scrapped so its just not going to happen.
the swing wing mechanism is the major factor in F14 being a hangar queen.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: grimlock1 on 16 May 2019, 10:30:34
The main gun seems a joke . . . BUT, I see they are using the tail rotor set up the Navy was testing over the last several decades for their ASW choppers.

Blackhawk mod-
(http://i63.fastpic.ru/big/2014/0511/3d/0f24e73fb5f6fb85be4ceaff9fde0e3d.jpg)

(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/g3U8Dyc4knY/maxresdefault.jpg)

I cannot seem to find pictures of the recent Navy choppers where they used that sort of tail boom, which was smaller than the Blackhawk above . . . so its been around for the last 20-30 years IIRC, but its never been used on a production model.  Makes me think that thing is like the 'concept cars' you see at the shows that never look like the production model.
The Army was looking at this as far back as the 70's with the Cheyenne.(https://assets.rebelmouse.io/eyJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiIsInR5cCI6IkpXVCJ9.eyJpbWFnZSI6Imh0dHBzOi8vYXNzZXRzLnJibC5tcy8xNzI3OTYzOC85ODB4LmpwZyIsImV4cGlyZXNfYXQiOjE1NTgxNzAxNjZ9.v6fnX5kesgbj7L400GTGOXaVxINnSlV1uChhOrSDvpg/img.jpg)  In addition to developmental delays, it ran afoul of interservice politics. The Air Force said, "Hey, those  are fixed wings! Key West Agreement says we are the only ones who get to have fixed wing aircraft.  Except for the Navy.  And the Marines."
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Sharpnel on 16 May 2019, 10:58:00
The Fixed Wing is not all true. In my time in the Army I was assigned to a unit that flew OV-1 Mohawks

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8d/Grumman_OV-1D_Mohawk_%28G-134%29%2C_USA_-_Army_AN1188459.jpg)

and RC-12 Guardrails

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/96/Beechcraft_RC-12N_Huron_in_flight.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Colt Ward on 16 May 2019, 11:17:10
The Army was looking at this as far back as the 70's with the Cheyenne.(https://assets.rebelmouse.io/eyJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiIsInR5cCI6IkpXVCJ9.eyJpbWFnZSI6Imh0dHBzOi8vYXNzZXRzLnJibC5tcy8xNzI3OTYzOC85ODB4LmpwZyIsImV4cGlyZXNfYXQiOjE1NTgxNzAxNjZ9.v6fnX5kesgbj7L400GTGOXaVxINnSlV1uChhOrSDvpg/img.jpg)  In addition to developmental delays, it ran afoul of interservice politics. The Air Force said, "Hey, those  are fixed wings! Key West Agreement says we are the only ones who get to have fixed wing aircraft.  Except for the Navy.  And the Marines."

Its not that wing bit, its the aft facing prop instead of a side mounted prop on the tailboom.  The Navy helo did not have any or very much 'wing' but it had a bright orange paint on that unconventional tail in the picture I remember for ASW experimentation.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 16 May 2019, 11:48:31
Key West was brought up as one of the reasons for the Air Force to oppose the AH-56 program; doesn't mean they stuck with that reasoning all the time.  The helicopter was damn fast, and sneaky - there's video of it in tests on youtube surprising observers watching for it because it could get low and quick.

The Army also had a changing concept in warfighting around the time, and was becoming less focused on general CAS-style work and more on pure tank-killing with its helicopters; hence the Apache being the followup to the Cheyenne.  One of the biggest (IMO, BS) excuses was the death of a pilot in a test that resulted in claims that the aircraft was unsafe...

...when the test was specifically designed to create said unsafe situation and removed safety equipment to prevent that situation from happening.  Considering the new Apache's running the same three-axis prop design, with the same rigid rotor as the Cheyenne...yeah, something smells nasty.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: JadeHellbringer on 16 May 2019, 11:57:18
Reminder on the politics rule, guys- we've had a few posts wander a little close to the line.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Colt Ward on 16 May 2019, 12:57:13
Again, I was more pointing to the tail boom for my doubts about that concept VTOL becoming a production model.  Its been toyed with for decades, and for all the supposed advantages in the design it has not been adopted which makes me think its not practical yet on a deployed airframe.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 16 May 2019, 13:13:37
Reminder on the politics rule, guys- we've had a few posts wander a little close to the line.
Sorry, sorry, will be more careful.

Still, there's something terrible and awesome about the idea of an Apache squadron with two dozen Hellfires onboard each, looking to ruin some armored division's day.  Six weapon stations are love.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Sabelkatten on 16 May 2019, 13:18:10
Again, I was more pointing to the tail boom for my doubts about that concept VTOL becoming a production model.  Its been toyed with for decades, and for all the supposed advantages in the design it has not been adopted which makes me think its not practical yet on a deployed airframe.
It might simply be a question of "why?". From what I've seen most military VTOLs don't have top speed as the highest priority, so "wasting" payload on that might not have been interesting.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Colt Ward on 16 May 2019, 13:45:49
You are right, the Black Hawk has a lower top speed (30 to 40 knots IIRC) than the Huey but has a much longer time aloft.

From everything I read, its not a wasted payload since its not a real increase in airframe weight . . . it actually cuts down on wear for the airframe (cuts stresses from intersection of two perpendicular planes- lift blades & tail rotor), saves fuel which increases loiter time, and makes it easier to pilot.  Which are all things the Navy loves in its ASW birds, which leaves me questioning how simple it is to repair at sea or frequency of break down compared to the more simple tail rotor.  Or it could be problematic for in-air refueling which is a design criteria for FF & DD ASW birds.

Did we ever bid good bye to this Cold War bird?
(https://duotechservices.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/p-3-orion-us-navy.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Garrand on 16 May 2019, 14:01:38
I believe the P-3s are being phased out in favor of the P-8. Don't know if they are all gone yet though...

Damon.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: JadeHellbringer on 16 May 2019, 14:03:09
I can confirm at least one flying from Pax River NAS- it's passed over the western DC suburbs a few times lately heading to and from that direction, and it draws my eye every time.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: hoosierhick on 16 May 2019, 14:09:17
Nothing moves off the F-14s at the Boneyard without 2 Congressional orders, countersigned by God.  I tried to requisition one of the OBOGS when I was interning at NASA. Naval Intelligence won't let anything off those planes because Iran still has them.

I thought that all the U.S. F-14s that hadn't been donated to a museum had a date with a shredder?  I looked at the boneyard in Arizona on Google Maps and only found one,  but it's hard telling how old the image is.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Colt Ward on 16 May 2019, 14:36:24
I can confirm at least one flying from Pax River NAS- it's passed over the western DC suburbs a few times lately heading to and from that direction, and it draws my eye every time.

I want to say they are done, the last flight mission was in the news IIRC.  But they tend to celebrate the last regular forces flight while the reserves still uses the older equipment.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: glitterboy2098 on 16 May 2019, 15:26:57
I thought that all the U.S. F-14s that hadn't been donated to a museum had a date with a shredder?  I looked at the boneyard in Arizona on Google Maps and only found one,  but it's hard telling how old the image is.
they have, now. prior to 2009 there were still about a dozen in AMRG, which were the last batch to go to the shredder. go back farther and you get more present.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 16 May 2019, 17:26:24
There's ten listed at AMARC here:

http://www.amarcexperience.com/ui/index.php?Itemid=274&id=205&option=com_content&view=article#

BUT they don't specify what condition they're in - scrap pile, intact airframe, whatever.  I looked around on google maps and found two that look intact, parked....of all things, next to a freakin' Canberra.  And yes, that's at the Graveyard, not at Pima!  Oh, and five more on the other side of the base, all of which seem to be intact.  Not all ten, but at least as of the time that photo was taken (unspecified) they were there.

There's some weird stuff out there. Anyone ever heard of a Canberra with much larger wings?  It looks like a swollen U-2...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Feenix74 on 16 May 2019, 18:47:50
Probably one of these US variants of the Canberra:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_RB-57D_Canberra (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_RB-57D_Canberra)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin/General_Dynamics_RB-57F_Canberra (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin/General_Dynamics_RB-57F_Canberra)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Fat Guy on 16 May 2019, 18:51:38
The RB-57F.

(http://i.ebayimg.com/images/i/151400674767-0-1/s-l1000.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 16 May 2019, 19:06:50
I'm gonna say it's an F-model based on the enlarged intakes and the underwing pods.  D's seems to be a bit smaller.  Coordinates are in the URL!

Wonder where the midwing pods went.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: worktroll on 16 May 2019, 19:38:50
Okay, we have the Canberra & the Harrier; are there any other foreign planes the US has taken in under licenced production?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Fat Guy on 16 May 2019, 20:00:30
The T-45 Goshawk off the top of my head.

(https://milaviate.files.wordpress.com/2014/04/800px-t-45_goshawk_side-view.jpg)

Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: worktroll on 16 May 2019, 20:17:47
This led me to the Hawk 2000, which looks like a Chibi F-18 ...

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/61/BAE_Hawk_208_edited_2.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 16 May 2019, 23:57:47
Scratch one F-16...

https://www.cnn.com/2019/05/16/us/military-f-16-fighter-jet-crash-california/index.html

No casualties, thank god, considering just what happened.  I'm guessing something went wrong midflight and they were trying to get it back to base, rather than a spontaneous and complete loss of control from hydraulic failure right there on landing.  Just short of the runway, too.

(https://www.wthr.com/sites/default/files/styles/article_image/public/2019/05/16/f-16crashknbc970.jpg?itok=xprdBv4O)

There's dashboard camera video of it going in on youtube, just a couple seconds worth at most but it's way up rolled about 90 degrees to one side.  Can't tell which from the clip, it's not good enough resolution at that distance, but it looks like it nearly bellyflopped into the roof.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Easy on 17 May 2019, 00:03:58
cleanup
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 17 May 2019, 00:08:28
There's a video on youtube recorded immediately after the crash by an employee around the corner coming up to it.  No fire at all, impressively, just a lot of dust stirred up from the impact.  Not linked because verbal reactions are quite understandably exceedingly NSFW.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: chanman on 17 May 2019, 01:54:37
Okay, we have the Canberra & the Harrier; are there any other foreign planes the US has taken in under licenced production?

The T-6 Texan II is mostly a Pilatus PC-9 made by Hawker Beechcraft.

On the helo front, you have the UH-72 Lakota (Airbus Helicopter UH-145) and HH-65 Dolphin (Airbus Helicopter Dauphin) made by  their US subsidiary American Eurocopter  ::))
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Feenix74 on 17 May 2019, 02:03:31
Alenia C-27J Spartan

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e1/164th_Airlift_Squadron_-_Alenia-Lockheed_Martin_C-27J_Spartan_08-27015.jpg)

Built by Alenia Aermacchi but as part of the international partnering team lead by L-3 Communications serving as the prime contractor.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Dave Talley on 17 May 2019, 10:03:38
The T-45 Goshawk off the top of my head.

(https://milaviate.files.wordpress.com/2014/04/800px-t-45_goshawk_side-view.jpg)

both the Goshawk and the Hawk remind me of the A4
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: nerd on 17 May 2019, 15:07:12

Did we ever bid good bye to this Cold War bird?
(https://duotechservices.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/p-3-orion-us-navy.jpg)
Currently on her final active duty deployment. VP-40 left last month for Bahrain.

However, the P-3 will continue to solider on for a few more years in the two USNR VP's, and in support of other agencies.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 17 May 2019, 16:18:39
Is NOAA using those as storm hunters still, or did they switch to C130s only?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Colt Ward on 17 May 2019, 16:46:48
Okay, that was the news- the final deployment (planned at this time).  Guess they are hunting for someone's subs . . .
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: hoosierhick on 17 May 2019, 17:16:20
Speaking of the boneyard...the Air Force reactivated another B-52 from there recently.

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/28015/a-b-52h-nicknamed-wise-guy-becomes-the-second-to-ever-come-back-from-the-bone-yard?fbclid=IwAR1L-nGjNHGhsDyXsMJGRBpO4Pdnu7G5YA-WUdZv9Z4fBDxWmos7W6oHmj8 (https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/28015/a-b-52h-nicknamed-wise-guy-becomes-the-second-to-ever-come-back-from-the-bone-yard?fbclid=IwAR1L-nGjNHGhsDyXsMJGRBpO4Pdnu7G5YA-WUdZv9Z4fBDxWmos7W6oHmj8)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Deadborder on 18 May 2019, 00:47:09
That's pretty amazing to see. Old warriors never die and all
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Orin J. on 18 May 2019, 02:59:50
Speaking of the boneyard...the Air Force reactivated another B-52 from there recently.

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/28015/a-b-52h-nicknamed-wise-guy-becomes-the-second-to-ever-come-back-from-the-bone-yard?fbclid=IwAR1L-nGjNHGhsDyXsMJGRBpO4Pdnu7G5YA-WUdZv9Z4fBDxWmos7W6oHmj8 (https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/28015/a-b-52h-nicknamed-wise-guy-becomes-the-second-to-ever-come-back-from-the-bone-yard?fbclid=IwAR1L-nGjNHGhsDyXsMJGRBpO4Pdnu7G5YA-WUdZv9Z4fBDxWmos7W6oHmj8)

May its further service be dull and quiet.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: chanman on 18 May 2019, 12:35:51
Zombie BUFFs?!
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: grimlock1 on 20 May 2019, 09:33:33
May its further service be dull and quiet.

Here, here!
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: I am Belch II on 20 May 2019, 12:09:37
Here is a live action of the Marian Hegemony deploy of airborne troops.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Colt Ward on 20 May 2019, 12:17:00
Wonder what it would be like to skydive with that shield in front of you . . .
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: grimlock1 on 20 May 2019, 12:36:44
Wonder what it would be like to skydive with that shield in front of you . . .
Captain America did okay jumping with his shield in Winter Soldier...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Orin J. on 20 May 2019, 14:56:37
Here is a live action of the Marian Hegemony deploy of airborne troops.

how did you get the graphics on your game of Civ this high!?  :D
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: glitterboy2098 on 20 May 2019, 18:40:50
Wonder what it would be like to skydive with that shield in front of you . . .
eh, just surf down on the shield. and you'd be protected from ground fire, as a bonus..
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Colt Ward on 21 May 2019, 15:41:32
Super-duper stealth fighter to sneak up on targets . . .

Gov management- sends stealth fighter with external fuel tank
(https://sofrep.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/F-22-Tu-95.jpg)

Wonder what that does with its RCS?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: DoctorMonkey on 21 May 2019, 15:47:52
I think is one of those times you want to be noticed


...but perhaps an F-15C or F-16 could have performed the interception?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Colt Ward on 21 May 2019, 15:50:33
Yeah, do those tanks even work with supercruise?  Besides, why would you want your latest fighter snuggling a enemy recon plane?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Easy on 21 May 2019, 15:56:24
cleanup
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 21 May 2019, 19:36:11
There's also "play games with your RCS so that the enemy aircraft don't get a good signature of just how stealthy you are."  Not to mention it's Alaska, I'm sure everyone likes having extra gas to get back home.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Fat Guy on 21 May 2019, 21:15:52
...but perhaps an F-15C or F-16 could have performed the interception?


One of the reasons the Air Force is going ahead with the F-15X.

Why use up airframe hours on a fifth generation fighter on a job that can easily be done by a non stealth type.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 21 May 2019, 21:43:42
It also gives the F-22 drivers experience in dealing with hot scramble and intercept, which is a useful thing.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Fat Guy on 21 May 2019, 21:48:22
The US Air Force has recently released test footage showing a USAF Northrop Grumman B-2A Spirit stealth bomber releasing two Boeing GBU-57A/B Precision Guided Massive Ordnance Penetrator (MOP) bombs, testing the weapon's capability to destroy deeply buried underground targets.

The GBU-57A/B is a 30,000-pound (13,608 kg) weapon carrying a warhead weighing 5,300 pounds (2,404 kg) of high explosives. It is used exclusively by the United States Air Force on B-2A bombers on conventional missions operating from the Whiteman Air Force Base, Missouri. The weapon is designed to defeat deeply buried targets, up to 200 ft (60 meters) deep.

The video clearly demonstrates the bomber's ability to carry two weapons, yet at a slightly reduced fuel load.

https://youtu.be/j-B2LrQZgLY (https://youtu.be/j-B2LrQZgLY)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Orin J. on 21 May 2019, 22:35:13
The US Air Force has recently released test footage-

so this footage is what, five years old then?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 21 May 2019, 22:46:16
Considering classified stuff with the B-2 bomber itself, that's remarkably quick.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: grimlock1 on 22 May 2019, 12:35:55
Super-duper stealth fighter to sneak up on targets . . .

Gov management- sends stealth fighter with external fuel tank
(https://sofrep.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/F-22-Tu-95.jpg)

Wonder what that does with its RCS?
So far as I understand, they can drop those tanks, but they can't drop the pylon.  Your stealth is still probably shot all to heck and back.


There's also "play games with your RCS so that the enemy aircraft don't get a good signature of just how stealthy you are."  Not to mention it's Alaska, I'm sure everyone likes having extra gas to get back home.
Gifting the other side's intel boffins with insomnia and paranoia is always fun, but why by obvious about it. Use small, color matched Luneburg lenses.  Also, who took that photo?
One of the reasons the Air Force is going ahead with the F-15X.
I do think its kind of amusing how this spotter/missile carrier arrangement is almost 180o from what was kicked around for the Raptor, back in the '90's.  The plan back then was to have a bunch of Raptors running silent out front, then somebody way to the rear of the formation cranks their active radar up to 11.  When that plane finds targets, they would be sent to the Raptors via satellite uplink.  The Raptors would fire missiles from very close range with no active radar.   Now the Raptors and Lightnings are going to be cruising ahead in stealth mode, and calling targets for the F-15X. 

I wonder how much work it would take to let an AWACS designate targets for the F-15X?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: glitterboy2098 on 22 May 2019, 13:11:38
in non-wartime conditions stealth aircraft are equipped with reflectors to make them stand out on radar, as part of a safety system so air control towers can pick them up and help avoid midair collisions. (it also helps prevent their actual stealthiness from being measured) so being equipped with the tanks and pylons isn't really a big hindrance to stealth in the current situations because they aren't trying to use stealth.

this article focuses on the F-35, but the reflector requirement goes back to the F-117. (once they declassified it)
https://theaviationist.com/2018/01/26/interesting-photos-show-u-s-air-force-f-35a-stealth-jets-deployed-to-japan-about-to-launch-without-radar-reflectors/
(and boy was it tricky to find an article on them that didn't also go into rule4 territory)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: hoosierhick on 22 May 2019, 13:47:29
The F-22 can blow the pylons with the tanks.

https://theaviationist.com/2014/08/08/f-22-fuel-tanks-jettison/

For some reason my phone doesn't want to make they link hot.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 22 May 2019, 17:23:35
Gifting the other side's intel boffins with insomnia and paranoia is always fun, but why by obvious about it. Use small, color matched Luneburg lenses.  Also, who took that photo?
Raptor's wingman.  You never go up alone.

Also having the extra fuel on board means you can escort that bogey WAY out of your airspace and then tag along a while to see what they go do next, staying and shadowing the whole group for a while.  It's not like an Ollie Ollie Outs In Free shoulder-tap moment and everyone goes home...if the bogey doesn't turn out much, then you might be busy a while.

And if the bogey gets real squirrely, well, you can always pop tanks and kill it if you need.

I wonder how much work it would take to let an AWACS designate targets for the F-15X?
As I understand we can do that now, it just means potentially exposing a subsonic AWACS to combat and putting a giant risk on that plane.  Differences in detection and tracking ranges based on radar return, that sort of thing; the receiver on the AWACS can pick up very faint radar signal return, while missiles less so - so you'll need your radar source that much closer to your line.

It's not a BAD idea, but piles a lot of eggs in one big, slow, and very visible basket.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: HobbesHurlbut on 23 May 2019, 06:09:03
As I understand we can do that now, it just means potentially exposing a subsonic AWACS to combat and putting a giant risk on that plane.  Differences in detection and tracking ranges based on radar return, that sort of thing; the receiver on the AWACS can pick up very faint radar signal return, while missiles less so - so you'll need your radar source that much closer to your line.

It's not a BAD idea, but piles a lot of eggs in one big, slow, and very visible basket.
Yeah as discussed elsewhere, the plan is for the F-15X to back up the Raptor/F-35 once they painted bogies for the multiple missiles.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: grimlock1 on 23 May 2019, 09:27:10
The F-22 can blow the pylons with the tanks.

https://theaviationist.com/2014/08/08/f-22-fuel-tanks-jettison/

For some reason my phone doesn't want to make they link hot.
I stand corrected!  Thanks.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: I am Belch II on 23 May 2019, 17:35:50
The huge distances in the Alaska airspace they might want to of escort and watch over longer than normal. Don't really need stealth for a interception.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: PsihoKekec on 24 May 2019, 00:50:43
You don't need the radar either, you just triangulate on the noise the Tu-95 makes.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: grimlock1 on 24 May 2019, 07:20:54
The huge distances in the Alaska airspace they might want to of escort and watch over longer than normal. Don't really need stealth for a interception.
True, but here is also a certain amount of sadistic glee that can be had from sneaking up on some one at night then turning on your nav lights when you are a quarter mile off their nose...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: JadeHellbringer on 24 May 2019, 08:58:32
You don't need the radar either, you just triangulate on the noise the Tu-95 makes.

Or just follow the exhaust. Bears (much like the BUFF) leave a trail that all but screams "I'M OVER HERE".

I've never been up close to a Tu-95 before, of course, but from what I hear it's one of the loudest aircraft ever built. Having been around things like the Tomcat and Harrier, that's really saying something.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Fat Guy on 24 May 2019, 15:59:21
The USAF plans to reactivate the 65th Aggressor Squadron at Nellis AFB, Nevada, and will assign nine early production F-35As to the unit. The move is part of an initiative to improve training for fifth-generation fighters against stealthy opposition. The unit will receive nine early Low Rate Initial Production and non-combat capable F-35As from the 33rd Fighter Wing at Eglin AFB.


(https://combataircraft.keypublishing.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/5/2019/05/F-16-F-35.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 24 May 2019, 17:44:23
I've never been up close to a Tu-95 before, of course, but from what I hear it's one of the loudest aircraft ever built.
Supersonic propeller tips.  It's four Thunderscreech aircraft in very close formation.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: HobbesHurlbut on 24 May 2019, 18:02:50
Supersonic propeller tips.  It's four Thunderscreech aircraft in very close formation.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UZgBJOUcK3U is this right? I can't hear so I don't know if that plane is moving at sonic speed.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 24 May 2019, 18:35:48
The prop tips are moving past the speed of sound, not the plane itself.  It's basically four supersonic wake generators next to the aircraft the whole time.  Now imagine 18 hour flights in that monster.

Also, scary realization, look how slow the landing gear retracts (0:48 to 1:17) and then look at the airbrake profile it has the whole time...right after takeoff.  No wonder he waits so long to pull them in, compared to US aircraft.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: I am Belch II on 24 May 2019, 19:15:42
I remember F4 pilots chasing Bears could hear the Bear over their own engines during escort of the plane. The landing gear looks like it folds up in its self, the big pods on the wings. Most Soviet style airplanes had the big pods after the wings for the gear. Tu22, Tu154 and the Tu134 all come to mind. The runways are crap over there so they needs some strong landing gear.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: beachhead1985 on 25 May 2019, 20:25:53
I remember F4 pilots chasing Bears could hear the Bear over their own engines during escort of the plane. The landing gear looks like it folds up in its self, the big pods on the wings. Most Soviet style airplanes had the big pods after the wings for the gear. Tu22, Tu154 and the Tu134 all come to mind. The runways are crap over there so they needs some strong landing gear.

The new engine upgrades (derived mainly from older engines with new parts) are claimed to reduce noice and vibration by up to 50%. I am sure the various NATO intercept flights will be only slightly less grateful than the Bear crews!
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 25 May 2019, 21:18:14
If the Bear were any louder, you'd be able to hear it coming before it showed up on radar.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 25 May 2019, 22:02:25
I wonder if you can track a Tu-95 with sonar...from underwater.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Daryk on 25 May 2019, 22:06:13
I'm pretty sure the answer to that is "yes", if it's flying low enough...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: beachhead1985 on 26 May 2019, 07:53:12
I wonder if you can track a Tu-95 with sonar...from underwater.

I have been told that subs can indeed hear bears while submerged. Probably puts at least a litle damper on the effectiveness of the TU-142s...That was the maritime version, right?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: I am Belch II on 26 May 2019, 13:15:49
The Sosus (sonor nets on the ocean floor) under the water would pick up the Bears flying over.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 26 May 2019, 16:02:20
Wonder if that could be used to mask transits.  Hang out at medium-low altitude for a while, cycle a few planes through, and sneak half the sub fleet across where no one could hear it.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: hoosierhick on 28 May 2019, 15:51:17
It sounds like one of the galleries at the National Museum of the U.S. Air Force was slightly damaged during one of the tornados last night in Dayton, Ohio.  They posted on their Facebook page this morning that the Early Years Gallery is temporarily closed for repairs.  There is a lot of damage in Dayton, but fortunately no fatalities. 
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: beachhead1985 on 28 May 2019, 16:57:33
It sounds like one of the galleries at the National Museum of the U.S. Air Force was slightly damaged during one of the tornados last night in Dayton, Ohio.  They posted on their Facebook page this morning that the Early Years Gallery is temporarily closed for repairs.  There is a lot of damage in Dayton, but fortunately no fatalities.

Oh no! I hope it is't too bad!
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: grimlock1 on 30 May 2019, 10:23:19
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UZgBJOUcK3U is this right? I can't hear so I don't know if that plane is moving at sonic speed.
The optical effect at 1:32 is freaky.  The way the prop blades seem to bend one way, then the curve flips as the blade moves through 9 o'clock.  Fun with frame rates.  :rockon:
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: CranstonSnord on 30 May 2019, 12:42:33
Oh no! I hope it is't too bad!

They say it's just some metal siding on one of the buildings, so nothing major.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: hoosierhick on 30 May 2019, 16:29:14
They say it's just some metal siding on one of the buildings, so nothing major.

They (the U.S. Air Force Museum) posted on their Facebook page this morning that the gallery that was damaged was reopened.  They were extremely lucky seeing how the tornado track was very close to them.  I saw a radar image that showed part of the track of the tornado's rotation went right over the museum.

Edit:  Found the pic.  The circle with the arrow pointing at it is where the museum is located.

(https://i.imgur.com/dyRjdrJ.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Daryk on 30 May 2019, 16:36:10
I was the Operations Officer for a unit one weekend when a tornado hit our base.  The duty section had messaged me to say they could see the funnel cloud through the (glass) front doors.  I told them "GET DEEPER INSIDE THE BUILDING!"  With a little more invective running through my mind, of course.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: hoosierhick on 30 May 2019, 16:36:58
And seeing how this is supposed to be an aviation picture thread....how about an Autogyro?

(https://i.imgur.com/lPpGXtt.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: worktroll on 30 May 2019, 16:40:13
I see your bid, and advance with a gyrodyne! A Soviet gyrodyne, no less!

(https://i.redd.it/uww6emyso5z11.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Daryk on 30 May 2019, 16:44:13
Wait... four props, two engines?!  Mind blown!  :D
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 30 May 2019, 16:46:20
The ultimate of 'eventually abandoned aviation ideas'

(https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/skycaptainsarmyforhire/images/0/0c/Hindedock.png)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Daryk on 30 May 2019, 16:48:12
Uh... your closing tag should be /img, not /width...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 30 May 2019, 16:53:06
Derp.  Fixed.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Daryk on 30 May 2019, 17:09:41
Cool... sweet pic!  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Colt Ward on 30 May 2019, 18:38:46
Lol, is that Sky Captain & the World of Tomorrow or some artist rendering of what was intended with the Empire State Building?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 30 May 2019, 18:51:48
Sky Captain!  Loved that movie.  Damn shame about the wind and stability at that altitude...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: I am Belch II on 31 May 2019, 06:50:25
There was a idea when the Empire State Building was made that Zepplins would dock at the ring on top.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 31 May 2019, 08:26:58
Yup, which you got to see in Sky Captain.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Weirdo on 31 May 2019, 08:51:46
I thought it actually happened at least once in reality?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Colt Ward on 31 May 2019, 09:36:08
I think they tried, but the crosswinds made the ability to get that close impossible or very dangerous (which means it was REALLY dangerous by today's standard) . . .

This was the goal . . .
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/ad/4e/b4/ad4eb4fc486da31160ac8118de78cce8.jpg)

And so it was built . . .
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/a0/a6/54/a0a65452f64cb78fa20b117552db962e.jpg)

But this was a fake . . .
(http://justfunfacts.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/empire-state-building-zeppelin-dock.jpg)

But this article discusses it and says they did dock one ship . . .
https://untappedcities.com/2013/05/28/daily-what-empire-state-building-zeppelin-docking-station/ (https://untappedcities.com/2013/05/28/daily-what-empire-state-building-zeppelin-docking-station/)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: HobbesHurlbut on 31 May 2019, 09:43:10
Plus the docking contraption had to be able rotate freely as to avoid flipping and stress from winds against the airship's sides.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: hoosierhick on 31 May 2019, 10:23:20
Imaging this happening at the top of the Empire State Building.  :o

(https://i.imgur.com/eVqbDMR.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Colt Ward on 31 May 2019, 10:29:38
If that is not doctored like the one I shared . . . I have to wonder if the Navy crew could ever have a bowel movement again after that amount of pucker factor.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Weirdo on 31 May 2019, 10:37:40
Not doctored. I believe that's the USS Los Angeles, and it was most certainly NOT a good day.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: HobbesHurlbut on 31 May 2019, 11:27:40
Not doctored. I believe that's the USS Los Angeles, and it was most certainly NOT a good day.
Quote
On 25 August 1927, while the Los Angeles was tethered at the Lakehurst high mast, a gust of wind caught her tail and lifted it into colder, denser air that was just above the airship. This caused the tail to lift higher. The crew on board tried to compensate by climbing up the keel toward the rising tail, but could not stop the ship from reaching an angle of 85 degrees, before it descended. The ship suffered only slight damage and was able to fly the next day.
Wiki.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Weirdo on 31 May 2019, 11:31:24
I guess it's SOP aboard airships to keep loose objects secured at all times(or at least kept in small compartments) so that you don't have damage/injuries from random stuff tumbling around during attitude shifts, or making said shifts much worse.

The loose cannons principle, only magnified.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Colt Ward on 31 May 2019, 11:55:19
That had to be nuts.  Bet the navigator could not find his pencil if it had been on the map board.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 31 May 2019, 12:05:48
If that is not doctored like the one I shared . . . I have to wonder if the Navy crew could ever have a bowel movement again after that amount of pucker factor.
A moment like that is when you put in an order for new seat cushions, because all yours have gone missing...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Weirdo on 31 May 2019, 13:05:01
I'm concerned for the guy in the control room who manages to get the aft hatch open, looks aft/up, and suddenly has the ship's cat affixed to his face.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Colt Ward on 31 May 2019, 13:25:49
"I tell you, it took two days and three fish so fresh they were still flopping around to get Jinx to let go of Jones' face.  We never saw that cat again, heard it transferred to a destroyer heading to the Roaring 40s."
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: I am Belch II on 31 May 2019, 14:21:05
Airships were on their way out even before the Hindenburg Crash. The Akron and the Macon were 2 big losses and also the loss of the USS Shenandoah all when the way of a crash. The Hindenburg did make 16 trips across the pond with 10 to NY and 6 to Rio so for a year it was successful. Could cross the Atlantic twice as fast as the fastest liner at the time and 3 to 4 times faster than most.

It would be neat to see somewhat of a redo of smaller airships for more then just really nice photos of a Stadium or a racetrack.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Colt Ward on 31 May 2019, 14:24:07
Just because I saw this . . .

(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/bb/7c/48/bb7c48a1b46e6a6fcd588f64150a523e.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: HobbesHurlbut on 31 May 2019, 14:24:21
Hindenburg was the last pin and it was because USA refused to sell Helium to Germany. In spite of that, as blech mentioned she made 16 trips without serious issues from the hydrogen gas.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Colt Ward on 31 May 2019, 14:33:54
And then we have the SkyCat . . .

(https://hips.hearstapps.com/pop.h-cdn.co/assets/cm/15/06/54cfc6add849f_-_skycat-20-airship-470-0208.jpg?fill=320:270&resize=768:*)

Which is supposed to have a firefighting model that can scoop up 20t of water . . .
(https://www.aerospace-technology.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/15/2017/10/SkyCat_5.jpg)

Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: grimlock1 on 31 May 2019, 15:19:40
Hindenburg was the last pin and it was because USA refused to sell Helium to Germany. In spite of that, as blech mentioned she made 16 trips without serious issues from the hydrogen gas.
Hydrogen is a perfectly well behaved atomic citizen.  A spark in hydrogen atmosphere is nothing to get excited about.  Now oxygen, on the other hand...  Oxygen is basically Joe Pesci in Goodfellas (https://youtu.be/E84VqqCPI7w?t=44).  Oxygen is just looking for trouble to stir up.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 31 May 2019, 15:24:15
Oxygen is like Joe Pesci, period.  Can't do a damn thing on its own, but you hook it up with anyone...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: marauder648 on 02 June 2019, 02:06:15
Lovely short vid of some Herc's flying in Wales

https://imgur.com/gallery/LRXR3wi
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: DoctorMonkey on 02 June 2019, 05:36:17

Lovely short vid of some Herc's flying in Wales

https://imgur.com/gallery/LRXR3wi (https://imgur.com/gallery/LRXR3wi)

Nice to see it isn't just the RAF's fast jet pilots who are afraid of heights, clearly the multi-engine pilots feel the same


I remember going walking in Wales as a teenager (on a Duke of Edinburgh expedition) and seeing Tornados flying below us just around there
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: I am Belch II on 02 June 2019, 06:28:27
Mach Loop is a place I really need to go to.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: DoctorMonkey on 02 June 2019, 06:40:37
Mach Loop is a place I really need to go to.


It is also in an area of spectacular landscapes and interesting medieval castles
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: I am Belch II on 02 June 2019, 10:44:41

It is also in an area of spectacular landscapes and interesting medieval castles

More then just a reason to watch planes.....sold for me.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 02 June 2019, 14:05:52
Have some F-35 in-cockpit action from Miami last week.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QF7FSDpFYSs
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Daryk on 02 June 2019, 14:29:49
Hmm... I got "video unavailable" when I clicked...  :-\
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Ghost0402 on 02 June 2019, 14:55:28
Hmm... I got "video unavailable" when I clicked...  :-\
I think Youtube is broke at the moment.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Daryk on 02 June 2019, 15:06:30
Agreed... it hasn't loaded anything right for a little while now...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 02 June 2019, 15:35:02
Works fine for me, as do other videos on youtube.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Daryk on 02 June 2019, 15:51:09
It does seem to be back up... thanks for the heads up, and posting the vid!  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Colt Ward on 02 June 2019, 17:53:19
Today the local AFB had the air show . . . with the Blue Angels!  We arrived already a little into it, my wife was working the event for her company as PR so we got into some select areas.  My toddler LOVES planes, so he started getting excited when he heard the jet engine of a F-16 doing stunts as we were driving on base.  Then the F-16 was flying in formation with a Vietnam era Spad and a P-51 Mustang.  Getting him from where we parked to the actual area was a pain b/c he would stop and search for the plane when he heard the engine.

(https://scontent-dfw5-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/62174013_10216799060720531_2422266915339632640_n.jpg?_nc_cat=109&_nc_oc=AQnx2F3KcsCJMc3yef89ByNsTkKjR_1zn2YktMJ7pM6-vj77rvLDyx-17cRXzwB-AHI&_nc_ht=scontent-dfw5-1.xx&oh=174a4c5d47081061c469082e46e2b7da&oe=5D91FB9F)
Yes, the nosegear tire is as big as the toddler.

(https://scontent-dfw5-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/61988931_10216799112681830_6544314932467335168_n.jpg?_nc_cat=110&_nc_oc=AQmS6vkIZcCeFFa48odbVBzR8e9HlmuZZ-ZmVX1btgW86zPJK9VDbilFnG4YAfQroZM&_nc_ht=scontent-dfw5-1.xx&oh=95a98067211b982586097a8a334e4979&oe=5D51C946)
Blue Angels coming in for a pass

(https://scontent-dfw5-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/61786502_10216799112881835_7042217687795105792_n.jpg?_nc_cat=100&_nc_oc=AQkGM0SQXcDXDSTqckSl76wv0pGdJCUgy0MEIrtUensD0vYtzyPVXJL20dT9NBjbFYQ&_nc_ht=scontent-dfw5-1.xx&oh=30c8604b56900a0df21406dfdbb2c1ca&oe=5D860D22)

(https://scontent-dfw5-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/61784025_10216799110801783_2474863424148865024_n.jpg?_nc_cat=105&_nc_oc=AQkWDi6d-PjfpjSyNZx7O1AKHFhLs946YvWONpRG9upKl8Dyzxv6cFjeWl5YAqrYqNM&_nc_ht=scontent-dfw5-1.xx&oh=4788662c580524b87f39c5c075eda358&oe=5D8C29F6)
These two Blue Angels were doing 120 MPH down the runway standing the birds on their tails and holding up with thrust.  Flying near stall at that 'altitude'- 100 ft? maybe? . . . I think one snapped out of it a bit early b/c he put the nose down to zoom off while the other kept the pose.

(https://scontent-dfw5-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/61949601_10216799111321796_3026951048796307456_n.jpg?_nc_cat=109&_nc_oc=AQl3PHhhwwq9P8hBdB_39HyV8yIVedTmK8okX1VHWvsI1KmLru6kQko2_GuxoMQJaes&_nc_ht=scontent-dfw5-1.xx&oh=a6f0e6e6dfed7f26e9725610c927250a&oe=5D89D209)

(https://scontent-dfw5-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/61536067_10216799111561802_7340879208068939776_n.jpg?_nc_cat=108&_nc_oc=AQnWfNBX0OAvaPo59cTcwDBN_4vuy8Xiu5byONM448D3XYd_PBW_Bams14cjjyW4fwE&_nc_ht=scontent-dfw5-1.xx&oh=7186db95e9b47998ac105b29d78a4179&oe=5D871341)
Diamond loop

(https://scontent-dfw5-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/61621281_10216799112081815_6455426456813043712_n.jpg?_nc_cat=103&_nc_oc=AQnZ7U_KtzYyFmfa0rXkR9A3qzVa2HdzMYFo0Yqgg1rTfAe-QubRckvF5JdSLQAPhR0&_nc_ht=scontent-dfw5-1.xx&oh=63970bba2ee19a1be7f132f576a94b3c&oe=5D86F6DD)
One inverted, both with landing gear deployed

(https://scontent-dfw5-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/61918162_10216799111081790_2946447848247394304_n.jpg?_nc_cat=100&_nc_oc=AQkQw_u-PGOpiC1MQGz99MQp9f6VVg5J-Erl9nQ5hSdhcjDRVirrndtIw8htFxBtDDc&_nc_ht=scontent-dfw5-1.xx&oh=6ecb5233c7367057b840a499b4bae54e&oe=5D565B6F)
The Sound of Freedom!

(https://scontent-dfw5-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/61986608_10216799110601778_1895013311288705024_n.jpg?_nc_cat=107&_nc_oc=AQkHlmaZhyzvgzwe4VX_TotL-aOYCejDSdpp6yk1G01JOSV4We6fAdXKxrB42esz7XE&_nc_ht=scontent-dfw5-1.xx&oh=a575c97a176c84fb2a3663090ef46a6f&oe=5D5C6907)

(https://scontent-dfw5-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/61870919_10157671464707275_8630463333629165568_n.jpg?_nc_cat=105&_nc_eui2=AeFD2j2Ti-zOcOEkwkC0hA0o1CSufpsj5Ng8tv5MiD0UGltNKrU1WZv0tARDMfYkGyLqsGRCjldPYKx-RprSWNjEkMBgr2ynZ-x60Yot4TJJig&_nc_oc=AQl4-t_FDh_jMc8GA5S344vGqM1h3rWOZkQFdUCS13dgE5RoQESELjCxI50QCC__5EQ&_nc_ht=scontent-dfw5-1.xx&oh=88423da40f4b00a680a2f1c7189c6a28&oe=5D5AC47C)
Kid is greeting the B-1 aircrew, standing under the bomb bay- tried to get the kid to say 'nuke bombs'

(https://scontent-dfw5-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/61706847_10157671465322275_8864635834054213632_n.jpg?_nc_cat=109&_nc_eui2=AeFzGguw0itAEpmWsRSUFa1H9slT2QAEdM-BsR5R6JDkvDN1m9FvB_VJii-Zbql--t9sxco1TMcORwMuJH4GyUXnSUErJg8zGGTDGfvqqBo9uQ&_nc_oc=AQkdRIAyXzh-AEXJflkUuGcIbkvuhPaFiIeLLfoqbSMamx0HDlRJFBLKeduW76uMuic&_nc_ht=scontent-dfw5-1.xx&oh=047681e62b5d474418d3005c3ed4cb0a&oe=5D8A5865)
To the B-52!  And hot on that tarmac

(https://scontent-dfw5-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/61934293_10157671465517275_42321164625772544_n.jpg?_nc_cat=105&_nc_eui2=AeEIaZzx6Si5Dm6N_iJlL6LSuPP-8kVERU9qqj-AUMULiwlIqpMVgkPGFL_hXhgfipighjN3_3f6FNDPnceATgnw4pD06H7gE-IQF0IXREY-Mg&_nc_oc=AQkRfhR_FTaLpD0JCIJT1ZRYLfX7Bx7E9Q_X087leBmaXevdH8I8OwHnYmH1EdJmHrk&_nc_ht=scontent-dfw5-1.xx&oh=81b553a8ae663cb4503d4d7fce6a2582&oe=5D96C03C)
My kid thinks landing gear tires are good places to sit
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Daryk on 02 June 2019, 18:02:55
Nice pictures, but could I trouble you to shrink them a little? Please?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Colt Ward on 02 June 2019, 18:06:45
Yeah, sorry so eager to post I did not preview which I normally do when putting on pictures.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 02 June 2019, 18:31:30
Yeah, width=600 on those please, it's just impossible to see
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Dave Talley on 02 June 2019, 23:27:20
glad to see OK still knows how to do a show
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: nerd on 03 June 2019, 11:55:44
Nice to see it isn't just the RAF's fast jet pilots who are afraid of heights, clearly the multi-engine pilots feel the same


I remember going walking in Wales as a teenager (on a Duke of Edinburgh expedition) and seeing Tornados flying below us just around there
I used to live under the flight path to MSP, and I'd often see the USAFR/MNANG C-130's coming in with the civil traffic. They were usually the lowest flyers and the most closely spaced, especially compared to the commercial jets.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: DaveMac on 05 June 2019, 02:27:24
This should be rather spectacular

https://www.daksovernormandy.com/

From 2 to 9 June 2019 over thirty DC-3/C-47’s will come together. Their owners and operators fly them in from all over the Globe. From Scandinavia, The Netherlands and the rest of Europe, from Canada and the United States and even from as far away as Australia. All for what may well prove the very last time. Just so everyone can watch paratroopers jump over Normandy once more and admire these wonderful aircraft on the ground and in the air, where they belong.


Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Colt Ward on 05 June 2019, 09:14:19
I know some of the vets are jumping- I want to say I heard one Brit in his 90s had worked up for it.  Sound bite had him laughingly talking about being told by folks younger than him jumping could kill him.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Weirdo on 05 June 2019, 09:44:14
I know some of the vets are jumping- I want to say I heard one Brit in his 90s had worked up for it.  Sound bite had him laughingly talking about being told by folks younger than him jumping could kill him.

"Can't be any worse than the last time!"
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Colt Ward on 05 June 2019, 09:59:11
Was that what he said?  I kept trying to find the clip, I just know his remarks got me laughing- he was great and the reporter was a idiot.  The bit I heard was like they were reading off the idiot question list.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Weirdo on 05 June 2019, 10:19:03
Nah, that's my own humor. I haven't seen it.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Colt Ward on 05 June 2019, 10:21:41
Well he said something pretty close when the reporter asked about the jump killing him.  It was something like, it was more likely last time, and I am fricking 90!
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: DaveMac on 06 June 2019, 04:16:58

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/jun/05/d-day-veterans-in-their-90s-parachute-into-normandy-once-more

Harry Read, 95, a retired Salvation Army officer, was a 20-year-old wireless operator with the Royal Signals when he was pushed out of his plane in the early hours of 6 June 1944. John “Jock” Hutton, 94, from Larkfield, Kent, was 19, and serving with the 13th Lancashire Parachute regiment when he descended over the famous Pegasus Bridge.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Feenix74 on 06 June 2019, 04:56:30
Beautiful sight with the Dakotas and all those chute. Once again the great generation prove what big brass balls they have.

(https://i2-prod.kentlive.news/incoming/article2942436.ece/ALTERNATES/s1200/0_IBP_AYP_240519DAKOTA__11JPG.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Colt Ward on 06 June 2019, 09:59:47
Article I found last night had a 97 y/o paratrooper doing a tandem jump.  US guy, still cannot find the recorded interview bit- https://www.military.com/daily-news/2019/06/05/97-year-old-wwii-veteran-parachutes-mark-d-day-anniversary.html (https://www.military.com/daily-news/2019/06/05/97-year-old-wwii-veteran-parachutes-mark-d-day-anniversary.html)

I hope I am still in the right condition at that age to do that!  Heck George Bush Sr was doing tandem jumps until a few years from his passing IIRC.

Any idea how many of the drop planes from D-Day still exist?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: hoosierhick on 06 June 2019, 14:25:38
I think a couple of the planes in Feenix's post were there.  The C-47, That's All Brother,  that lead the American drop was found a few years ago,  restored to flyable condition and took part in the 75th anniversary drop.  I took this pic of it at Oshkosh last summer.

(https://i.imgur.com/0jHcpWA.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 06 June 2019, 16:20:07
I'd heard there were a good 30 flyable C-47s attending, though how many of those are originals versus other DC-3s repainted and refitted into wartime configuration is a question.  So is, admittedly, the count of 30, based on my mostly-listening to the news.

Saw the video of Rice's jump, he was having a blast the whole time.  God bless you sir.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: worktroll on 06 June 2019, 16:35:13
I wonder how many were repainted DC-3s. Near enough, certainly.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: DaveMac on 07 June 2019, 01:38:54
Here you go for aircraft details

https://www.daksovernormandy.com/aircraft/

17 Military
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Ghost0402 on 07 June 2019, 03:17:49
Luck of the Irish made it over.  Excellent.  They are 5 minutes up the road from me.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: God and Davion on 07 June 2019, 14:03:36
Here you go for aircraft details

https://www.daksovernormandy.com/aircraft/

17 Military

That page is so full of awesomeness that my navigator almost exploded. Thanks, DaveMac
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Sabelkatten on 07 June 2019, 14:20:36
Read the history of one of the Swedish DC-3s ("Daisy"). USAF>Canada Air>Norwegian Aviation>SAS>Linjeflyg>Swedish air force(!)>Veterans' organization. After 14 years in 4 different passenger companies she went back to another 22 years military service, ending in '82!
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: I am Belch II on 07 June 2019, 16:40:37
At Omaha Beach where the presidents and such spoke, they had like 10 C-47s fly over for a flyby. Did they have more?? I remember seeing that there would be 30 or something close to that. The flybys were pretty neat with Rafales, F15s, C130s and the French Jet Demo team.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: I am Belch II on 07 June 2019, 16:43:11
I guess all it takes is a little research.

Found a video.
https://www.airlive.net/watch-this-stunning-aerial-footage-of-30-dakota-aircraft-departures-from-duxford-to-normandy/
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: DaveMac on 10 June 2019, 04:19:39
That page is so full of awesomeness that my navigator almost exploded. Thanks, DaveMac

Welcome matey

Talking of awesomeness:

http://www.warbirdsonline.com.au/2019/06/10/beaufighter-engine-restoration-news/

One of my all time favourite aircraft and one I never thought would ever return to the skies

But thought that about the Mosquito after we lost RB299 in 1996!
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Daryk on 10 June 2019, 15:07:45
Quote
...16 tons of spare parts acquired last year from New Zealand...
  :o
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Fat Guy on 18 June 2019, 08:01:35
Two 6th generation fighter mockups unveiled within minutes of each other at the Paris Air Show.

Dassault, Airbus, MBDA Systems, Safran, MTU and Thales' Future Combat Air System:

(https://combataircraft.keypublishing.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/5/2019/06/DA00037313_S-1024x684.jpg)

Turkish Aerospace's TF-X:

(https://combataircraft.keypublishing.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/5/2019/06/IMG_9697-1024x768.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: grimlock1 on 18 June 2019, 08:32:15
Two 6th generation fighter mockups unveiled within minutes of each other at the Paris Air Show.

Dassault, Airbus, MBDA Systems, Safran, MTU and Thales' Future Combat Air System:

(https://combataircraft.keypublishing.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/5/2019/06/DA00037313_S-1024x684.jpg)

Turkish Aerospace's TF-X:

(https://combataircraft.keypublishing.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/5/2019/06/IMG_9697-1024x768.jpg)

I've always been curious just how fiddly is the external geometry for stealth aircraft. Are we talking milimeters or microns?  Just how difficult would it be to build a couple different F-117 model kits, model them in CAD, then feed into a COTS RF modeling program?  I know it's hardly a turn-key solution, and that what's under the skin is a whole other can of worms. Other countries have done digital stability control and fly by wire. The Serbians could made a mint selling samples of the radar absorbent coatings, so I have to imagine that Russian, China and more than a few others have acquired samples and run them through the mass spec.  Figuring how to manufacture and apply the multi-layer coating is still a sticky wicket, but between model kits, millions of photos, and samples of the coatings, you're 80-90% of the way there. Add modern computers and software and the job gets a lot easier. 

All this makes it seem like building an F-117 clone should be relatively, but that it doesn't seem to have happened makes me wonder.  Just how hard is it?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: I am Belch II on 18 June 2019, 08:33:42
I guess Turkey is really upset about the F35s, best way around it is to make your own.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: hoosierhick on 18 June 2019, 09:49:52
That first one looks like a F-35 and YF-23 were left alone in a hanger over a weekend.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Fat Guy on 18 June 2019, 10:28:07
And the second one looks like if Harmony Gold owned the visuals of the Raptor (or at least claimed to  ;)), they'd be sueing Turkish Aerospace.   ;D
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Kidd on 18 June 2019, 18:01:51
"...deploying Death Blossom petals... Greetings, Starfighter; you have been chosen to defend the Star League against Xir and the Kodan Armada..."

Is this cool shit or what?!

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cf/F-94_rockets.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 18 June 2019, 18:20:04
Ah, the days when an interceptor had nothing to do with its life but go really really fast (and get really ******* gas mileage*) and laugh at bombers exploding behind it.  F-102 had something similar in its weapons bay doors, 24 70mm FFARs that were basically one big shotgun load as you zoomed up on an incoming Tu-16 and Il-28s.

* Internet cookie if you get the reference.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: hoosierhick on 18 June 2019, 18:51:05
The F-94C...the last gasp of the F-80.  I always liked the F-89 better.  Depending on the variant it could carry 104 ( :o ) FFARs or several guided missiles or a couple of Genie nuclear rockets (and was the only plane to launch a live Genie, fortunately).  The battle of Palmdale did show that the FFARs weren't all that great for trying to shoot down planes, though.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Palmdale (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Palmdale)

I tried to find a pic of the F-89 launching the FFARs, but I didn't see a good one.

(https://i.imgur.com/QvwsHOK.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 18 June 2019, 19:10:01
And the firing options were "Missiles," More Missiles," and "All the Missiles?"
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Kidd on 18 June 2019, 19:35:22
And the firing options were "Missiles," More Missiles," and "All the Missiles?"
As hoosierhick says, there was another option...

(https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/954/738/89d.gif)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Daryk on 18 June 2019, 19:38:04
That's hilarious!   ;D

What's it from?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 18 June 2019, 19:55:26
Megas XLR, an awesome show from the early 2000s that ran on Cartoon Network for two seasons before the network abruptly canceled them.  Sadly never released on DVD due to some legal shenanigans.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Daryk on 18 June 2019, 20:00:07
Thanks...  I don't think I caught them at the time (on sea duty, and all that...).
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Kidd on 18 June 2019, 20:04:55
Thanks...  I don't think I caught them at the time (on sea duty, and all that...).
This is the original clip Ogre was referencing

(https://i.imgur.com/qo4Dw1W.gif)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Daryk on 18 June 2019, 20:09:03
That is ALSO hilarious!  ;D

Thanks for the post!  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Fat Guy on 18 June 2019, 21:44:08
* Internet cookie if you get the reference.

The only Robocop that was worth a damn.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: truetanker on 18 June 2019, 23:55:00
Hey I liked number 3! Better than Nuke and exploding jars of baby sauces...

(https://i0.wp.com/militaryhistorynow.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/1922877-bigthumbnail.jpg?resize=560%2C315&ssl=1)
Miles M.39 Libellula

This lil' thing is cute!

TT
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 18 June 2019, 23:58:30
It looks like it was put together backwards. :o
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: HobbesHurlbut on 19 June 2019, 06:23:11
The F-94C...the last gasp of the F-80.  I always liked the F-89 better.  Depending on the variant it could carry 104 ( :o ) FFARs or several guided missiles or a couple of Genie nuclear rockets (and was the only plane to launch a live Genie, fortunately).  The battle of Palmdale did show that the FFARs weren't all that great for trying to shoot down planes, though.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Palmdale (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Palmdale)

I tried to find a pic of the F-89 launching the FFARs, but I didn't see a good one.

(https://i.imgur.com/QvwsHOK.jpg)
Found this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QqUVtup1YpI
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: I am Belch II on 19 June 2019, 08:57:26
Here is a all electric plane at the Pairs Airshow idea.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Weirdo on 19 June 2019, 09:05:48
Looks like it was pulled out of one of the later Crimson Skies sourcebooks.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 19 June 2019, 10:14:58
Three push-props on a plane that size?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: worktroll on 19 June 2019, 11:39:05
Low blade rates, I suspect.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Bedwyr on 19 June 2019, 11:53:53
Note, especially, the aspect ratio on those wings. This is pretty optimized for efficiency like a U2. I've been wondering when some serious fixed wing electric designs would go public and this aligns with my experiences.

I met the guy who designed the VTOL UAV Greased Lightning. As with the Helios long endurance project, the solution at certain weights is to pile on the electric motors and push a lot of air just a little bit faster (like getting much more efficient high bypass turbines). I was wondering what a four-to-six seater would look like and I might have my answer.

The larger blades, slower rotation rings true to me as well. Our group once had to create a long endurance quadcopter platform (45 minutes to 1 hrs on a couple of 11 amp-hr batteries). We settled on a quad with larger 19.5" blades rotating at 3000rpm rather than a six motor copter with shorter blades rotating 8000 to 10000 rpm.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: I am Belch II on 19 June 2019, 12:53:30
That plane is going to have some serious crosswind landing problems...which they admitted too.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Bedwyr on 19 June 2019, 12:57:57
That plane is going to have some serious crosswind landing problems...which they admitted too.

Probably crab plus kickout method with freaky good aileron discipline.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: chanman on 19 June 2019, 13:48:39
I wonder how much is aerodynamics and how much is style. Butterfly tails don't noticeably reduce wetted area over a traditional arrangement, and IIRC, pusher props suffer a bit of an efficiency penalty as well
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 19 June 2019, 13:52:30
Reminds me of the Learfan with that tail and the smooth spitzer shape.  Though...geez, one engine failure is going to produce some brutal off-axis thrust like that; emergency landings are gonna be scary.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Bedwyr on 19 June 2019, 13:58:49
Reminds me of the Learfan with that tail and the smooth spitzer shape.  Though...geez, one engine failure is going to produce some brutal off-axis thrust like that; emergency landings are gonna be scary.

Most likely single engine failure procedure in the quick reference handbook: For outboard engine failure, shutdown and feather opposite engine as well as failed engine. For center engine failure, feather only the center engine. With that wing and and airframe design, it should have a pretty good glide ratio and so should be able to fly straight and level at lower speeds with the center engine.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: CrossfirePilot on 19 June 2019, 17:57:01
Larger blades with reduced RPM should result in less cavitation and noise and be more efficient.

I am wondering why they didnt go U2 route on the gear and do a single center main with some small outriggers in the engine pods.  I figure a prop strike in this thing will be just as expensive as one in any other plane.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: grimlock1 on 21 June 2019, 11:20:05
I wonder how much is aerodynamics and how much is style. Butterfly tails don't noticeably reduce wetted area over a traditional arrangement, and IIRC, pusher props suffer a bit of an efficiency penalty as well
I think butterflies may actually increase the wetted area.  To get X ft-lbs of pitch moment, you need to deflect Y square inches of control surface by Z degrees. Canting the surfaces presents less area in the vertical plane.  Either suffer reduced control or increase the size, which adds surface area and weight.   Maybe you can save weight on simplified control linkages?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Feenix74 on 21 June 2019, 19:44:02
Quote from: wikipedia
Ideally, with fewer surfaces than a conventional three-aerofoil tail or a T-tail, the V-tail is lighter and has less wetted surface area, so thus produces less induced and parasitic drag. However, NACA studies indicated that the V-tail surfaces must be larger than simple projection into the vertical and horizontal planes would suggest, such that total wetted area is roughly constant; reduction of intersection surfaces from three to two does, however, produce a net reduction in drag through elimination of some interference drag.[7]

In modern day, light jet general aviation aircraft such as the Cirrus Vision, the Eclipse 400 or the unmanned aerial drone Global Hawk often have the power plant placed outside the aircraft to protect the passengers and make certification easier. In such cases V-tails are used to avoid placing the vertical stabilizer in the exhaust of the engine, which would disrupt the flow of the exhaust, reducing thrust and increasing wear on the stabilizer, possibly leading to damage over time.

You do not necessarily reduce the total wetted area but by replacing the traditional three tail surfaces with only two surfaces you reduce drag. Also the v-tail configuration can work better with the flow of exhaust from a single engine.

(https://www.uasvision.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/RQ-4-Global-Hawk.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 21 June 2019, 20:01:44
Also makes a nice visual barrier against IR from the engine itself; never hurts to have a little less profile aspect when you're dealing with heat seekers.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: grimlock1 on 24 June 2019, 10:45:52
Also makes a nice visual barrier against IR from the engine itself; never hurts to have a little less profile aspect when you're dealing with heat seekers.
  Good point.  I doubt that airframe would respond all that well to hard maneuvers, like defeating a missile.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Fat Guy on 24 June 2019, 14:23:47
Two Luftwaffe Typhoons collided in midair over northern Germany today.

Though both pilots ejected, one didn't survive.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: worktroll on 24 June 2019, 14:33:10
Bruntingthorpe's 2019 Cold War fast taxi day - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=25mBU8RuhhI

Man, memories coming back. I was in a VC-10 flying Canada to Scotland in the 1960s ... the glorious BOAC livery.

And a Victor, and Buccaneer, and ...

(That I remember. Not that I flew in. Unfortunately ...)

W.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Daryk on 24 June 2019, 14:43:02
Are you trying to prove you have that glorious beard?  :D
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Fat Guy on 24 June 2019, 14:46:34
The Abraham Lincoln and a B-52H of the 20th Expeditionary Bomb Squadron.

(https://combataircraft.keypublishing.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/5/2019/06/190601-N-XX070-1595-1024x722.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: DoctorMonkey on 24 June 2019, 14:59:23
Two Luftwaffe Typhoons collided in midair over northern Germany today.

Though both pilots ejected, one didn't survive.


That is very sad
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Colt Ward on 24 June 2019, 15:38:52
'52 and Hornets flying pretty low . . . what was that shot for?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Fat Guy on 24 June 2019, 15:59:11
No, this is low!

(https://www.strategypage.com/gallery/images/b-52flyby.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Bedwyr on 24 June 2019, 16:27:27
I want to shake things up a bit in my civilian pimping way. Anyone up for some recce?

No fair doing image searches or checking image code.

(https://i.imgur.com/Se4gUf9.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: worktroll on 24 June 2019, 16:52:58
De Haviland Dragonfly, right? Gorgeous looker.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Colt Ward on 24 June 2019, 16:59:17
If its named like a yacht, you know its special.

Gotta have more leg room than a Cessna.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Bedwyr on 24 June 2019, 17:09:35
De Haviland Dragonfly, right? Gorgeous looker.

Got it in one. I'll try and find and post another tomorrow. I had a friend on the collegiate team competing in SafeCon and he was so good at the recce part of the competition, he could figure out airplanes based on window rivets. I'll try not to be that cruel (probably).
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Bren on 24 June 2019, 18:22:10
I think that's a Dragon Rapide.

Close family but different aircraft.

(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/0d/2b/9a/0d2b9a660310f042b132550eb335b6e2.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Bedwyr on 24 June 2019, 19:19:43
Actually, Bren is correct. This particular airplane is the Rapide, registration G-AGTM1. I'll give credit for either, though. They're very close cousins.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Feenix74 on 24 June 2019, 19:43:58
Ok, how about this one then:

(https://www.baesystems.com/en/download-en/heritageimage/webImage/20161008114022/1434587957824.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Bedwyr on 24 June 2019, 19:48:33
Dear lord I have no earthly idea. That was fast. That manifold design tho.

(https://media1.tenor.com/images/35b2d6d3eed572316f2317021c4dab51/tenor.gif)



I half expect Poirot to walk out with Hastings any minute and express his admiration... from a distance.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: truetanker on 24 June 2019, 20:38:21
I find this... is close?

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-LQnrmZrr9p8/TdrTbEQ4yfI/AAAAAAAAADc/NpDxBQkpytQ/s640/HV120Board.jpg (http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-LQnrmZrr9p8/TdrTbEQ4yfI/AAAAAAAAADc/NpDxBQkpytQ/s640/HV120Board.jpg)
Bernard HV120

TT
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 24 June 2019, 21:38:42
Ok, how about this one then:

(https://www.baesystems.com/en/download-en/heritageimage/webImage/20161008114022/1434587957824.jpg)
Reminds me of one of the Supermarine racers for the Schneider trophy.  Also, Marco Pagotti approves of that aircrraft.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: truetanker on 24 June 2019, 21:44:08
That's what I found... the Schneider Trophy thing.

TT
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Feenix74 on 24 June 2019, 23:47:49
Close enough, a Supermarine S.5 that first flew in 1927. Designed and built specifically for the Schneider Trophy competition.

Want to know more: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supermarine_S.5 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supermarine_S.5)

The S.5 was the progenitor of a line of racing aircraft that ultimately led to the Supermarine Spitfire.

Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: hoosierhick on 25 June 2019, 08:13:05
I was going to guess Supermarine S.4, but when I Googled it to check if the designation was correct the photo you posted popped up with a caption of what it was.  That kind of took the fun out of it.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Bedwyr on 25 June 2019, 08:45:48
I was going to guess Supermarine S.4, but when I Googled it to check if the designation was correct the photo you posted popped up with a caption of what it was.  That kind of took the fun out of it.

That's why you don't Google it. It has to come from memory. :)

I never knew about the Schneider Trophy, so I didn't have a frame of reference for the airplane. The closest I could get were air races in the US (GeeBee style) and Howard Hughes's H-1 racer which has similar efforts at streamlining.

Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Bedwyr on 25 June 2019, 09:01:34
Ok, here's another. It's not quite window rivet ID, but it is the inside of a cockpit.

Which airplane is this and what makes it unique?

(https://i.imgur.com/KKii9rC.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Weirdo on 25 June 2019, 09:14:31
No clue, but I really want to see an external picture, to find out what the hell is going on over the copilot seat.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Bedwyr on 25 June 2019, 09:16:37
No clue, but I really want to see an external picture, to find out what the hell is going on over the copilot seat.

I have an external for this one once people have had a shot at it.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Sharpnel on 25 June 2019, 12:56:44
Ok, here's another. It's not quite window rivet ID, but it is the inside of a cockpit.

Which airplane is this and what makes it unique?

(https://i.imgur.com/KKii9rC.jpg)
Piper Cub?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: hoosierhick on 25 June 2019, 13:28:40
That's why you don't Google it. It has to come from memory. :)

I never knew about the Schneider Trophy, so I didn't have a frame of reference for the airplane. The closest I could get were air races in the US (GeeBee style) and Howard Hughes's H-1 racer which has similar efforts at streamlining.

The S4 came from memory,  I just made the mistake of looking at pics when I was trying to check there really was an S4.  That's why I didn't throw in a guess.   ;)

There were all sorts of interesting designs made for the Schneider Cup over the years.

As for the new pic...beats me other than its not a Piper Cub. The Cub has a high wing.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Bedwyr on 25 June 2019, 13:33:11
Piper Cub?

Not with that rounded window and yoke and low-wing, no.

Here's one of the few J-3 cockpits I could find that didn't have yellow bars:

(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/45/01/9e/45019ecbec214327fc8a267ecf85b3c9.jpg)

Keep trying.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: glitterboy2098 on 25 June 2019, 15:24:09
looks like either a low wing or canard design, since we can see part of a wing outside the cockpit.

its too angular and clunky looking to be a Rutan design...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Bedwyr on 25 June 2019, 15:28:34
looks like either a low wing or canard design, since we can see part of a wing outside the cockpit.

its too angular and clunky looking to be a Rutan design...

I'll give you low wing. It's not a Rutan build. I'll even give you that it's not experimental.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Dave Talley on 25 June 2019, 16:20:27
just based off the layout i am gonna guess a crop duster
very high seat when compared with wing level,
extreme amounts of windscreen, looks almost 365
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Bedwyr on 25 June 2019, 16:28:55
just based off the layout i am gonna guess a crop duster
very high seat when compared with wing level,
extreme amounts of windscreen, looks almost 365

365, I'm not familiar with that one. Similar numbers I can recall are Air Tractor 300 series, 235 Pawnee, or the Grumman AgCat 450.

Either way, no. A clue would be that you're looking in at the cockpit from the right wing step. The door rim is open in the top of the airplane.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Dave Talley on 25 June 2019, 16:55:38
DOH!
I meant 360 as in vision from the seat,
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Bedwyr on 25 June 2019, 17:00:41
DOH!
I meant 360 as in vision from the seat,

NP. I'll give it till later this evening before I post the airplane and a bit of discussion surrounding it. I'm pleased with the picture selection.

If anyone else wants clues, I'll reiterate a few: obvious low-wing, right-wing step entry, yoke controls, pretty rounded cabin, structural bar running up the side from the instrument panel. Also note the mysterious crank in the ceiling.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Euphonium on 25 June 2019, 17:13:26
Bruntingthorpe's 2019 Cold War fast taxi day - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=25mBU8RuhhI

And Buccaneer, and ...


An ex-RAF friend told me that Buccaneer crews didn't like a fast taxi because it was too slow for the extra altitude compared to a flypast...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: hoosierhick on 25 June 2019, 18:03:21
NP. I'll give it till later this evening before I post the airplane and a bit of discussion surrounding it. I'm pleased with the picture selection.

If anyone else wants clues, I'll reiterate a few: obvious low-wing, right-wing step entry, yoke controls, pretty rounded cabin, structural bar running up the side from the instrument panel. Also note the mysterious crank in the ceiling.

And there's a indicator of some sort behind the crank.  Flap position, maybe?  Is it a Beech Bonanza of some flavor?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Bedwyr on 25 June 2019, 18:06:38
Is it a Beech Bonanza of some flavor?

Nope.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Feenix74 on 25 June 2019, 20:10:25
Having a close look at the photo, the yoke appears to have a logo on it which I will guess is "Bellanca", so I will guess it is a Bellanca Viking or Super Viking (never seen the interior of one of those so only a guess).
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Bedwyr on 25 June 2019, 20:28:40
Bingo. It's a Super Viking. (The picture below is actually the same airplane featuring the cockpit.)

(https://i.imgur.com/diYOvb2.jpg)



The big clues are mainly embedded in three unique things. The crank is actually the pitch trim control, a feature that you don't see much except on older Piper Cherokees. The cage is a structural feature inherited from their other tailwheel aerobatic planes, the Decathlon and Citabria (I've flown both of those and had the pleasure of ground-looping the latter at Boeing Field). The standout feature of the plane is that it has wood-and-fabric wings. I believe that's one of the main reasons that the main gear retracts into a fairing instead of the wing itself.

It's kind of a cousin in airplane class to the Bonanza, so that wasn't a bad guess tbh. You can kind of mistake it at a glance for a single tail Bonanza if you miss the retractable wheel fairings and a pretty broad, stubby tail. The airplane was manufactured in the 1960s and 70's and again most recently in 2005 by a reconstituted company formed by Viking owner fans (I don't think it sells fast, though; they mostly support existing owners). The comparison to the Bonanza is apt through its three blade prop and IO 550 engine (the A-G 36 Bonanza uses some variation of the IO 520, sometimes the 550). I was introduced to the airplane through a restoration project AOPA conducted in the 90s. Comparing V speeds, the two airplanes (Viking and A36) are nearly identical with the same engine. I need to track down a speed list for the Bonanza to make sure their stall speeds are similar.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Feenix74 on 26 June 2019, 01:39:34
Ok after the beauty of the Supermarine S.5, lets go to the opposite extreme:

(http://www.smartage.pl/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/306-1078x516.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Sharpnel on 26 June 2019, 02:11:21
That monstrosity has 'Warsaw Pact written all over it. Damn that is ugly.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: glitterboy2098 on 26 June 2019, 02:24:47
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PZL_M-15_Belphegor

Polish designed agricultural plane. (yes that is a glorified cropduster) The Russians insisted it be jet powered for some reason, so we got the only jet biplane. then production was cut short (115 aircraft out of an ordered 3000) when the jet engine proved inefficient.

i have no idea why they insisted on a jet. perhaps there was some hope of converting it into some sort of cheap attack craft?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: DoctorMonkey on 26 June 2019, 02:31:43
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PZL_M-15_Belphegor (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PZL_M-15_Belphegor)

Polish designed agricultural plane. (yes that is a glorified cropduster) The Russians insisted it be jet powered for some reason, so we got the only jet biplane. then production was cut short (115 aircraft out of an ordered 3000) when the jet engine proved inefficient.

i have no idea why they insisted on a jet. perhaps there was some hope of converting it into some sort of cheap attack craft?


encourage or build up a pool of jet trained maintenance personnel in civilian life?


one of the advantages the US had going into WW2 versus Germany was the high level of mechanical awareness among recruits into the Army
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Feenix74 on 26 June 2019, 04:19:57
Well done  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Sabelkatten on 26 June 2019, 05:54:04
Given the Sovjets it wouldn't surprise me if some jet engine factory just had spare capacity...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Fat Guy on 26 June 2019, 06:42:19
Maybe they were interested in a military version to disperse chemical weapons?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: phoenixalpha on 26 June 2019, 07:06:22
Ok after the beauty of the Supermarine S.5, lets go to the opposite extreme:

(http://www.smartage.pl/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/306-1078x516.jpg)

And people still ask.... "WHY WAS THE CHARGER BUILT???" - Exhibit A in the defence... this "aircraft"
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: I am Belch II on 26 June 2019, 08:53:20
Boeing 737 MAX parking cause of the grounding of the plane.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Bedwyr on 26 June 2019, 09:24:15
Boeing 737 MAX parking cause of the grounding of the plane.

That shocked me when I saw it on Jalopnik. I learned to fly at Boeing Field (RIP Wings Aloft).

This lot sits to the south of the Flight Museum's space and big-plane annex which holds a space shuttle training mockup, Concorde, 707 version of Air Force 1, and a Lockheed Constellation among other things. Do visit if you can. It's also north of Boeing's Commercial HQ, so I'm sure the sight has got to aggravate McAllister.

IIRC, Boeing Field does paint, some tests, and delivery after the planes are flown from just over the hill at Renton. I've seen airplanes parked across the street but not often. This is... notable.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Kidd on 26 June 2019, 09:32:21
This picture and the like are going all over socmed. Am I the only one who sees it as a good thing? That Boeing is taking things seriously?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: hoosierhick on 26 June 2019, 09:40:55
This picture and the like are going all over socmed. Am I the only one who sees it as a good thing? That Boeing is taking things seriously?

With everyone grounding the MAX it's not like they had much of a choice.  Between the problem with the MAX and the FOD issues with the KC-46 Boeing is having a rough time.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: I am Belch II on 26 June 2019, 09:48:29
Boeing is not having a good year. The MAX is Boeing's Money and its not good when those are not going anywhere. It will be figured out, soon hopefully for them.


It seems like new planes always have problems KC46, 737Max, F-35
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Bedwyr on 26 June 2019, 09:49:31
This picture and the like are going all over socmed. Am I the only one who sees it as a good thing? That Boeing is taking things seriously?

The answer is "I dunno, maybe?". I can't make heads or tails of what their internal stance is. Externally, they're pretty serene and mostly apologizing for product delays at the Paris Airshow. But because of the liability, they may be on an unusually short leash by the legal department. Attorneys have an instinctive, and correct, response to clients: "SHUT. UP." This gets in PR's way and vice versa. So it may be that Boeing is staying tight-lipped to reduce further legal exposure.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 26 June 2019, 11:38:11
Ok after the beauty of the Supermarine S.5, lets go to the opposite extreme:

(http://www.smartage.pl/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/306-1078x516.jpg)

It looks like it was assembled using parts from at least three different airplanes.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: HobbesHurlbut on 26 June 2019, 11:50:46
look like it would have fitted right in any of the Studio Ghibli movies that have planes.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Sabelkatten on 26 June 2019, 14:26:29
Boeing is not having a good year. The MAX is Boeing's Money and its not good when those are not going anywhere. It will be figured out, soon hopefully for them.


It seems like new planes always have problems KC46, 737Max, F-35
Airbus A380 engine problems, anyone?

I think the big problem for Boeing is how they sidestepped the certification (and allegedly silenced complaints about the system? I'm not sure if the reporter got that part right). Technical problems are one thing, but getting the planes ready for sale by cheating is likely to cost a whole lot of goodwill.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 26 June 2019, 17:00:37
Looks like the MAX is gonna spend a little longer in the Employee Parking lots...

https://www.cnn.com/2019/06/26/politics/boeing-737-max-flaw/index.html
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Bedwyr on 26 June 2019, 17:22:46
Oof. Dat not good.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Kidd on 26 June 2019, 17:32:47
Sounds like they're making double extra five by five sure that absolutely nothing is going to go wrong, with this particular process most of all

The PR disaster of yet another such crash would dwarf what we've already seen
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: chanman on 26 June 2019, 22:59:27
Sounds like they're making double extra five by five sure that absolutely nothing is going to go wrong, with this particular process most of all

The PR disaster of yet another such crash would dwarf what we've already seen

PR disaster nothing. If the entire MAX design can't be certified for passenger service any more, it'd be the aviation equivalent of the Galaxy Note 7 debacle.

At least one Indonesian carrier was in talks to convert their large 737 MAX order into other Boeing products because passengers refused to fly on the MAXs

This picture and the like are going all over socmed. Am I the only one who sees it as a good thing? That Boeing is taking things seriously?

No. After Boeing (and the FAA*) didn't take the Lion Air crash seriously enough, no one is giving them a choice in the matter any more. After the Ethiopian Airlines crash, countries started grounding them in their areas of jurisdiction - they weren't allowed to enter national airspace.

*Many other regulatory authorities defer(ed) to the FAA's expertise on aircraft certification, but after this mess, it seems likely this shortcut won't be available to a revised 737 MAX, further delaying re-entry to service


I have my doubts that a software fix will work for the MAX. Even if it satisfies the FAA, it might now satisfy anyone else (and the vast majority of orders are from outside the US) - it won't fix the fundamental engineering issue of aerodynamic instability1 at the edge of the performance envelope2, especially given the software/systems engineering deficiencies already demonstrated3.

1The root issue is that the 737 doesn't have adequate ground clearance for the new larger diameter (and more fuel-efficient) engines introduced on the MAX. The solution of extending the new larger nacelles ahead of the wing causes a feedback loop at high angles of attack (AoA) - at high AoA, the size/shape/location of the new nacelles cause the aircraft to further increase pitch - a big no-no for an airliner.

2A heavily loaded passenger jet at takeoff operates relatively close to the edge of its performance envelope.

3The MCAS being used as a cover for what is a stability augmentation system with some aggressive override abilities. The supposition right now is that the MAX's aerodynamic troubles were found to be even worse than expected during testing. This would explain a) how fast it kicked in on the affected flights - there wouldn't be much time at low-level to avert a potential stall, b) the degree of control authority it was granted - the amount of elevator deflection it allowed was more than the pilots of either flight could counteract.

Linking a system with that degree of control authority to a single sensor instead of using triplex redundancy and not having a fail-safe mode are shocking engineering failures, but disguising the system as a mild pilot-convenience feature instead of a fundamental FBW or SAS component...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 26 June 2019, 23:53:39
The FAA was waiting for an investigation, and not jumping on banning what is basically the Ford F-150 of the skies, BECAUSE of the nightmare mess it would have caused.  Had both of those crashes been legit pilot error, and there was no problem with Boeing's aircraft, then the FAA's grounding would have been premature at best and significantly damaging to Boeing at worst.  Once the confirmation came out, and mention of other incidents that identified the problem, the FAA DID jump on it and grounded the bird.

That said, I'm way closer to rule 4 than I'd like to be, so I'll leave it at that (and apologize ahead of time) and just say "Boeing better be doing a full-down sweep on these planes and make sure they don't put them back in the wild with something ELSE that comes up...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 26 June 2019, 23:58:32
An ex-RAF friend told me that Buccaneer crews didn't like a fast taxi because it was too slow for the extra altitude compared to a flypast...
Hey look aviation pictures!  F-4 doing a high-altitude pass.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: PsihoKekec on 27 June 2019, 01:57:47
Meanwhile in Russia

(https://i.imgur.com/v14gmKk.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: chanman on 27 June 2019, 03:04:55
The FAA was waiting for an investigation, and not jumping on banning what is basically the Ford F-150 of the skies, BECAUSE of the nightmare mess it would have caused.  Had both of those crashes been legit pilot error, and there was no problem with Boeing's aircraft, then the FAA's grounding would have been premature at best and significantly damaging to Boeing at worst.  Once the confirmation came out, and mention of other incidents that identified the problem, the FAA DID jump on it and grounded the bird.

That said, I'm way closer to rule 4 than I'd like to be, so I'll leave it at that (and apologize ahead of time) and just say "Boeing better be doing a full-down sweep on these planes and make sure they don't put them back in the wild with something ELSE that comes up...

The 737 Next Generation (produced 1996 to present) is the F-150 of the skies (roughly 7000 made) and are still flying. The MAX is just getting started (under 400 delivered out of 5000 ordered) and is the one that's grounded.

The 737 MAX is the Galaxy Note 7 to the 737 NG's Note 6
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Bedwyr on 27 June 2019, 05:22:47
**MOD NOTICE**

I think it's time to take the 737 Max to another thread as I'm ruling the sidebar discussion OT at this point. It's going to just end up a distraction.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: DoctorMonkey on 27 June 2019, 05:50:46
here are some Mosquitoes to distract everyone


<iframe src="https://www.facebook.com/plugins/post.php?href=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.facebook.com%2FClassicAircraftPhotography%2Fposts%2F10156967167429713&width=500 (https://www.facebook.com/plugins/post.php?href=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.facebook.com%2FClassicAircraftPhotography%2Fposts%2F10156967167429713&width=500)" width="500" height="581" style="border:none;overflow:hidden" scrolling="no" frameborder="0" allowTransparency="true" allow="encrypted-media"></iframe>
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Kidd on 27 June 2019, 06:10:22
That's cute. Now step aside, big brother coming through... Mind the backblast!

(https://i.postimg.cc/VLYxRfhQ/nsj3qubo7r231.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: I am Belch II on 27 June 2019, 07:03:31
The Beaufighter was a great plane. A photo of it firing its load is great.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: beachhead1985 on 27 June 2019, 08:16:12
Ok after the beauty of the Supermarine S.5, lets go to the opposite extreme:

(http://www.smartage.pl/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/306-1078x516.jpg)

I dunno...there is still this thing...

(http://www.fiddlersgreen.net/aircraft/Air-Truk/IMAGES/Airtruk-taking-off.jpg)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transavia_PL-12_Airtruk (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transavia_PL-12_Airtruk)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Weirdo on 27 June 2019, 08:41:16
The aviation engineering equivalent of 'hold my beer and watch this'.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Feenix74 on 27 June 2019, 09:16:02
The AirTruk is cute in a fugly kind of way  :D

Anyway, this is the lovechild of a helicopter and a powered glider:

(https://foxbatpilot.files.wordpress.com/2016/01/seeker-french-island-01.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Cache on 27 June 2019, 09:23:05
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transavia_PL-12_Airtruk (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transavia_PL-12_Airtruk)

Beyond Thunderdome flashback!
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: HobbesHurlbut on 27 June 2019, 09:32:22
Beyond Thunderdome flashback!
Someone got it!  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Fat Guy on 27 June 2019, 09:35:16
(https://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2016/07/29/12/36A11B1E00000578-3714268-The_Optica_was_known_as_the_flying_bug_due_to_its_appearance_and-a-30_1469792086529.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 27 June 2019, 13:26:02
I dunno...there is still this thing...

(http://www.fiddlersgreen.net/aircraft/Air-Truk/IMAGES/Airtruk-taking-off.jpg)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transavia_PL-12_Airtruk (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transavia_PL-12_Airtruk)

That thing looks like it was assembled by a chimpanzee that was sniffing glue.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Colt Ward on 27 June 2019, 13:56:55
I thought a Cessna had crashed into one of these . . .

(https://www.bing.com/th?id=OIP.INPk7i3-2AHzOaEh0RC9OAHaE-&pid=Api&rs=1&p=0)

But here is another fun one . . .

(http://www.bluejacket.com/usn/images/ac/f/f7u_vought_cutlass_b.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: worktroll on 27 June 2019, 14:51:38
Ah, the nutless Cutlass. Darn you, Westinghouse, for blighting so many potentially great designs at that time with pathetic engines!

Ad IIRC, the Belphegor was replacing a prop-driven biplane cropduster. So "modern" meant "jet engine!", despite poorer endurance. And still biplane. The ulterior motive was a plane capable of dispersing chemical warfare agents, and on the same mission dropping a squad of Spetnatz off.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: hoosierhick on 27 June 2019, 15:50:57
I dunno...there is still this thing...

(http://www.fiddlersgreen.net/aircraft/Air-Truk/IMAGES/Airtruk-taking-off.jpg)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transavia_PL-12_Airtruk (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transavia_PL-12_Airtruk)

Neither of those are as ugly as the French bombers from the 20's and 30's.

How about a couple of Tigercats?

(https://i.imgur.com/bRvfDu0.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: beachhead1985 on 27 June 2019, 16:29:26
Wow! Those are gorgeous!
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Daryk on 27 June 2019, 16:30:36
The Tigercats looks great... are you just teasing us about the French bombers?  ::)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Sharpnel on 27 June 2019, 16:42:11
Like this one,

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2e/Bloch_MB.200.png)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Kidd on 27 June 2019, 16:50:21

(http://www.bluejacket.com/usn/images/ac/f/f7u_vought_cutlass_b.jpg)
What regiment are those Slayers from, I don't recognise the markings.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 27 June 2019, 16:53:42
A couple corsairs, one trying out contra-rotating props and one from War Thunder, the French F4U-7 fitted to severely wreck an armored unit's day...

(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/98/9f/9b/989f9b1bfbff82eee61734187018ec89.jpg)

Apparently the CR props actually hurt the speed and overall performance of the aircraft, but I have to wonder how they might have solved the brutal torque problems the bird had. 

Meanwhile, bringing 70mm rockets to the party...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Daryk on 27 June 2019, 17:00:09
I'm surprised the contra-rotating props made it past ground testing...  ???

That War Thunder bird looks really scary... once... And merely dangerous the rest of the time...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: I am Belch II on 27 June 2019, 17:20:43
I thought counter rotating props would help speed and power. Maybe it does just not on the corsair
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: worktroll on 27 June 2019, 17:39:56
They'd eliminate the torque, but I'd expect the gearing to be the issue, not the actual props.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Ghost0402 on 27 June 2019, 17:59:29
They'd eliminate the torque, but I'd expect the gearing to be the issue, not the actual props.
I think noise might be an issue too as with the Russian Bears.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Bedwyr on 27 June 2019, 18:01:14
They'd eliminate the torque, but I'd expect the gearing to be the issue, not the actual props.

Related:

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e3/MV-22_mcas_Miramar_2014.JPG/300px-MV-22_mcas_Miramar_2014.JPG)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Fat Guy on 27 June 2019, 18:09:57
Darn you, Westinghouse, for blighting so many potentially great designs at that time with pathetic engines!

It was joked at the time that Westinghouse's toasters put out more heat than their jet engines.   ;D
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: hoosierhick on 27 June 2019, 18:11:42
The Tigercats looks great... are you just teasing us about the French bombers?  ::)

The one Shrapnel posted didn't look too bad, especially when you compare it to this:

(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-o1RIy1fKZd8/UBrmE7jSnmI/AAAAAAAADL0/lDpHbrxeDB8/s1600/Amiot+143+-+1st+flgt+1931.png)

But to their credit, they also built this:

(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-UOSm0KNvOnI/UBrmGzdkZyI/AAAAAAAADL8/RrR8fqxcryE/s640/Amiot+351+prototype+-+1938.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Daryk on 27 June 2019, 18:27:46
Sharpnel's is uglier than the first, but that second one is indeed very good looking!  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Sharpnel on 27 June 2019, 18:37:34
Here's another non-ugly 30s French bomber

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8e/Bloch_mb-162.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Feenix74 on 27 June 2019, 18:50:44
The French did not monopolise ugly impractical boondoogle aircraft:

(https://thumbs-prod.si-cdn.com/wX5iwIWMlKBRebSKc7p32NaAh7g=/1072x720/filters:no_upscale()/https://public-media.si-cdn.com/filer/9c/12/9c12bbcf-44ae-4ad1-a4a1-47176124e0cd/23586820864_4cdb4bdc8d_o.jpg)

Want to know more? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell_YFM-1_Airacuda (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell_YFM-1_Airacuda)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Daryk on 27 June 2019, 18:59:45
I don't see any access to the fuselage for those engine nacelle gunners... yikes!
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: I am Belch II on 27 June 2019, 19:41:51
I liked the look of the Farman F222. Had a push pull engine combo under the wings. It stared off as a mail carrier, passenger than a bomber.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Feenix74 on 27 June 2019, 20:01:06
I don't see any access to the fuselage for those engine nacelle gunners... yikes!

As the wikipedia article indicates, nacelle gunners bailing out would have involved a date with a fast moving propeller unless pilot (assuming they were still alive) had been able to power down the engine (assuming that it was not on fire) and feather the prop . . .

I get the impression that a posting to the "operational" Airacuda squadron could be construed as commentary on your promotion prospects.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Daryk on 27 June 2019, 20:09:34
No joke there!  :o
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Kidd on 27 June 2019, 20:39:17
Apres moi, le deluge

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D95683yX4AE0XxM.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 27 June 2019, 21:46:56
As far as counter-rotating props go, to my knowledge the Spitfires got good gains out of the things (and of course there's the infamous Bear) compared to their baselines, but the Corsair's one-off experiment ended up a dud losing 300fpm in climb rate and 10mph in speed.  Maybe that could have been improved, but then again even stepping the thing up to a monster Wasp Major (yes, they did that) and its 3000hp didn't improve things at all.  I suppose aerodynamically the F4U at its drag and performance limits already with the Double Wasp, and perhaps that's why the contraprops and the Major didn't do so well.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 27 June 2019, 23:25:04
As the wikipedia article indicates, nacelle gunners bailing out would have involved a date with a fast moving propeller unless pilot (assuming they were still alive) had been able to power down the engine (assuming that it was not on fire) and feather the prop . . .

I get the impression that a posting to the "operational" Airacuda squadron could be construed as commentary on your promotion prospects.

You wouldn't get assigned to the position so much as sentenced.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: worktroll on 28 June 2019, 01:05:44
Apres moi, le deluge

617 Squadron? And is that a penetrator (grandchild of Tallboy and Grand Slam)?

W.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: HobbesHurlbut on 28 June 2019, 09:08:27
That War Thunder bird looks really scary... once... And merely dangerous the rest of the time...
OH that corsair, I love it I want to get it. Those little rockets? VERY HIGH penetration power. This is one of the planes you don't want to face in your heavy tank.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: beachhead1985 on 28 June 2019, 09:32:54
As the wikipedia article indicates, nacelle gunners bailing out would have involved a date with a fast moving propeller unless pilot (assuming they were still alive) had been able to power down the engine (assuming that it was not on fire) and feather the prop . . .

I get the impression that a posting to the "operational" Airacuda squadron could be construed as commentary on your promotion prospects.

Now how does *that* thing play in War Thunder?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: hoosierhick on 28 June 2019, 10:47:54
As the wikipedia article indicates, nacelle gunners bailing out would have involved a date with a fast moving propeller unless pilot (assuming they were still alive) had been able to power down the engine (assuming that it was not on fire) and feather the prop . . .

I get the impression that a posting to the "operational" Airacuda squadron could be construed as commentary on your promotion prospects.

I thought they could blow the props on the Airacuda if everybody needed to bail out?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Cache on 28 June 2019, 19:25:26
What regiment are those Slayers from, I don't recognise the markings.
Slayer? Looks like a Super-Deformed Lucifer from this end.

Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Daryk on 28 June 2019, 19:43:03
Looks like they cracked the cockpit a little early on recovery there... or it's a Photoshop...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: qc mech3 on 28 June 2019, 19:58:17
I believe it's before departure and the pilot didn't close the canopy yet.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: HobbesHurlbut on 28 June 2019, 20:00:00
I believe it's before departure and the pilot didn't close the canopy yet.
correct, the plane is lined up on a catapult line and a person is kneeling near the plane.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Daryk on 28 June 2019, 20:01:19
Ah, missed the shooter, but the cockpit should still be closed if the engines are at full power.  Even back in the day...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: HobbesHurlbut on 28 June 2019, 20:14:09
Ah, missed the shooter, but the cockpit should still be closed if the engines are at full power.  Even back in the day...
Isn't that so he can bail out if something go wrong during take off?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Daryk on 28 June 2019, 20:20:40
It's a jet... there should be explosive bolts to remove the canopy.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: I am Belch II on 28 June 2019, 21:16:10
Love that really long nose strut on the Cutlass. When the Royal Navy got the F4 they did that to them also.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: glitterboy2098 on 28 June 2019, 21:38:32
It's a jet... there should be explosive bolts to remove the canopy.
the ejection seats on the Cutlas were notoriously malfunction prone.. in the "on a hair trigger with a tendancy to throw the pilot into the air with no warning*, especially on take offs and landings, so most squadrons disabled to ejection seats. since the plane also had a tendency to have hydraulics issues on take off and landing (no mechanical backuos either) and their engines were rather underpowered for the non-catapult takeoffs they were having to make (no catapults yet) i wouldn't be surprised if the pilots took to using old propeller plane routines in order to have a chance to bail out if they went into the drink.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Daryk on 29 June 2019, 05:40:05
That makes sense... it really highlights how far we've come!
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: qc mech3 on 29 June 2019, 09:24:08
I would love to see a Cutlass done with modern fly by wire technology. I bet it would lose a lot of the death trap features of the time.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: DoctorMonkey on 29 June 2019, 09:46:43
I would love to see a Cutlass done with modern fly by wire technology. I bet it would lose a lot of the death trap features of the time.


Just give it a decent engine
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Fat Guy on 29 June 2019, 14:23:31

Just give it a decent engine


Preferably two.  ;)

Although one decent engine would still be more powerful than those pieces of Westinghouse.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 29 June 2019, 14:45:44
On the topic of underpowered aircraft, there's the infamous XFV-12A which just absolutely could not VTOL no matter how hard it tried, and was scrapped for it.

But I gotta wonder, with a jet weighing 20,000lbs and an engine pushing 30,000lbs of thrust, and NASA Langley testing being "suitable for conventional flight" how well would it have performed as a standard, non-VTOL aircraft?  Rip the ducting and all the special equipment out, keep the powerplant right out the back, add in whatever hardpoints you might need (tricky, with the wheels in the wings) and run it as a conventional fighter.  With a thrust-weight ratio of 1.5 that thing would set records in time-to-altitude, and all that wing surface suggests it'd be a nimble little dogfighter as well.

It's not like an M61, 2 Sparrows, and 2 Sidewinders was a bad loadout for the 1970s, especially compared to the far more massive F-16's early loads.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Kidd on 29 June 2019, 15:02:34
What did the early F-16 carry, and when was it improved?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: glitterboy2098 on 29 June 2019, 16:38:05
What did the early F-16 carry, and when was it improved?
the original F-16A's could carry 6 Sidewinders (2 wingtip, 4 underwing) or could carry underwing bombs in place of the underwing missiles. and their 20mm gatling of course. various small changes occurred between 1982 and 1988 (Block 1, 5, and 10 models) which basically tweaked minor features of the craft, with older mo0dels refit to newer.  in 1988 Block 15 came out which added a better radar, support for the Sparrow missile, and the ability to carry a AN/ALQ-131 Jammer pod, along with additional minor changes (increased tail size being one of the few non-avionics changes). the Block 15's were the first true all weather day night versions of the Falcon. Block 20 in the early 90's added additional avionics changes (including GPS, terrain following, and most of the stuff we're used to it having now), an even more powerful radar, and support for the AMRAAM.

it is hard to find a bomb load list for the F-16A, but most descriptions say a typical load was 2x 2000lb bombs, 2x external fuel tanks, and 2x sidewinders on the wingtip mounts. given that the F-16 was original intended to be a pure dogfighter, the fact it was equipped as a fighter/bomber at all was impressive (and showed that the designers were thinking ahead, more so than the people who drew up the original specifications), and over 4000lbs of bomb capacity wasn't bad for a light fighter.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: qc mech3 on 29 June 2019, 17:26:48

Preferably two.  ;)

Although one decent engine would still be more powerful than those pieces of Westinghouse.

It was an absolute. My lawnmower has better power then those and its a manual one.  :)) :)) I was thinking more in line with keep the aerodynamic but use modern engines, material, electronic, etc...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 29 June 2019, 18:25:36
Yeah, six Sidewinders on the F-16, which was near twice the flying mass of the XFV-12A.  And if you switched up the hardpoints on the 12A, you could also sling six Sidewinders on it too.

Now, considering how little that bird is, I can't imagine it's got much of a radar in that dinky nosecone, and I wonder how it would have really handled air combat.  It certainly had the power and wing surface to be an interesting bird, though, sans VTOL components.

Though I suppose that means we'd probably never have gotten the F-16, if the development resources went into that weird little thing.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: glitterboy2098 on 29 June 2019, 18:44:08
F-16A, fully loaded, was only 33,000lbs. so more like 1.5 XVF-12's. with the kind of mods needed to make the XVF prototype viable as a combat plane, probably closer to 1.2 or less.

so no, the F-16 would still have been the better combat plane. though i'd admit the XVF-12 would have had a very impressive speed and climb performance. but would not have been very maneuverable, in a time when the maneuverability of a fighter was the main thing of concern in combat.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Black_Knyght on 29 June 2019, 20:56:16
(https://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2016/07/29/12/36A11B1E00000578-3714268-The_Optica_was_known_as_the_flying_bug_due_to_its_appearance_and-a-30_1469792086529.jpg)
Echos of an OLD Mark Hamill movie - Slipstream
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 30 June 2019, 00:34:54
And other light aircraft, the grown-up love affair of an F-5 and F-86 - the G.91Y from Italy.  With 4000 pounds of bombs, two DEFA cannons, and a loaded weight of only 17,000 pounds...that is one little airplane.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 30 June 2019, 01:48:16
Idle thoughts.  So we know the obvious benefits of jet power - much faster speeds, even supersonic capability, plus the ability to use much less refined fuels compared to piston engines.  How long, believably, could an air force rely on piston power (air- and water- cooled) into the 1950s and 1960s for most situations?  Weapons would be similar enough, and especially in the subsonic era the only real benefit I can think of for the jets are straight line speed and climbing ability.

So in the realm of the F-86, Hunter, MiG-17, or Mystere, how long could the F4U, Sea Fury, FW-190s and late Spitfires function as fighting aircraft?  It feels like you'd be in a similar situation as the Japanese were in the Pacific - the American birds had speed and climb rate while the Japanese planes could outmaneuver and seriously outturn their opponents.  Gunwise, everyone's slinging 20mm and 30mm cannon, and I imagine things like modern revolver cannon (the M39 for example) could be fitted* to those planes.  Missiles, of course, even the odds a bit, but I'm more focused on the dogfight and close air engagements.

Obviously piston engine aircraft did fine in the ground attack role, and technically still do even in the US military - remember the use of OV-10 Broncos in Iraq a year or two ago?  And some of those piston planes could haul enormous bombloads, such as the AM-1's record 10,648 pound load.  So we know they're fine against ground targets and in the CAS/strike role. 

But what about the air war?  Only you pretty much anyone with a gun and an engine can prevent bombers, but how well would those piston planes do against 1st and 2nd generation jets?  It's not impossible, apparently, even the A-1 Skyraider was known to have a few MiG-17s in its logbook and the Sea Fury has MiG-15s in its kill records.

Anyone got thoughts on this?  Just how far can you push piston planes, and just how long could you hold on to them before finally modernizing?

*Pods, or even direct replacement.  The typical paired Hispano-Suizas ran 220 pounds for the guns plus a hundred pounds or more for ammunition; the M39 20mm is well lighter than that, and even the DEFA and ADEN guns fit the mass budget.  What this means for the idea of a Corsair slinging twin ADEN guns and its typical bombload in the 1950s BRRRRRRRRRRRRRTing the hell out of ground targets before dropping napalm all over them... 
 :drool:

By the way have an AM-1 Mauler, one big damn prop plane.  Woo, spirals!
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: chanman on 30 June 2019, 02:45:40
Idle thoughts.  So we know the obvious benefits of jet power - much faster speeds, even supersonic capability, plus the ability to use much less refined fuels compared to piston engines.  How long, believably, could an air force rely on piston power (air- and water- cooled) into the 1950s and 1960s for most situations?  Weapons would be similar enough, and especially in the subsonic era the only real benefit I can think of for the jets are straight line speed and climbing ability.

Completely depends on what the potential opposition is flying, really.

Quote
So in the realm of the F-86, Hunter, MiG-17, or Mystere, how long could the F4U, Sea Fury, FW-190s and late Spitfires function as fighting aircraft?  It feels like you'd be in a similar situation as the Japanese were in the Pacific - the American birds had speed and climb rate while the Japanese planes could outmaneuver and seriously outturn their opponents.  Gunwise, everyone's slinging 20mm and 30mm cannon, and I imagine things like modern revolver cannon (the M39 for example) could be fitted* to those planes.  Missiles, of course, even the odds a bit, but I'm more focused on the dogfight and close air engagements.

Probably not very long since turning fights were replaced with energy management tactics. The performance differential is just too great. Greater turning ability didn't save the Mk. V Spitfires against FW190s, nor the Zero or Ki-84 against Hellcats, Corsairs, Lightnings, etc. In fact, I don't think many late/post-war fighters emphasized turn performance - maybe the F8F Bearcat? Maneuverability was important, of course but in applications other than sustained horizontal turn rate.**

**I think this was a lesson that wasn't properly learned after WW1 - planes like the SPAD and S.E.5a relied on acceleration and top speed over turn performance against their rivals

Quote
Obviously piston engine aircraft did fine in the ground attack role, and technically still do even in the US military - remember the use of OV-10 Broncos in Iraq a year or two ago?  And some of those piston planes could haul enormous bombloads, such as the AM-1's record 10,648 pound load.  So we know they're fine against ground targets and in the CAS/strike role.

OV-10s are turboprops. I think the last case of piston aircraft seeing a lot of combat might be the AC-47s and B-26 Invaders in the Vietnam War

Quote
But what about the air war?  Only you pretty much anyone with a gun and an engine can prevent bombers, but how well would those piston planes do against 1st and 2nd generation jets?  It's not impossible, apparently, even the A-1 Skyraider was known to have a few MiG-17s in its logbook and the Sea Fury has MiG-15s in its kill records.

Anyone got thoughts on this?  Just how far can you push piston planes, and just how long could you hold on to them before finally modernizing?

*Pods, or even direct replacement.  The typical paired Hispano-Suizas ran 220 pounds for the guns plus a hundred pounds or more for ammunition; the M39 20mm is well lighter than that, and even the DEFA and ADEN guns fit the mass budget.  What this means for the idea of a Corsair slinging twin ADEN guns and its typical bombload in the 1950s BRRRRRRRRRRRRRTing the hell out of ground targets before dropping napalm all over them... 
 :drool:

By the way have an AM-1 Mauler, one big damn prop plane.  Woo, spirals!

The props would have to rely on the jets deciding to slow down and engage. Even an F-86 cruises well above the top speed of any piston fighter, and then there's the question of if the top speed is top sustained speed or temporary, 'Emergency War Power'/ water-menthol injection speed.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 30 June 2019, 03:16:41
I stand corrected on the OV-10, and as for the rest...yeah, that about does it.  Energy management and the speed & acceleration focus that wraps around it really does make things too weighted for the jets.  It's been a recurring thing like you said, I suppose, starting with the SPAD and S.E.5.  Speed is victory.

Was fun to think about at least.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: beachhead1985 on 30 June 2019, 08:26:13
And other light aircraft, the grown-up love affair of an F-5 and F-86 - the G.91Y from Italy.  With 4000 pounds of bombs, two DEFA cannons, and a loaded weight of only 17,000 pounds...that is one little airplane.

Anyone else pronounce that company "Air-Italia"?


And looking into it; it seems the AM-1 Had the edge on the Skyraider for payload and range, but the Skyraider was much for reliable and easier to fly.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: I am Belch II on 30 June 2019, 09:21:17
Raptor, Thunderbird and the Big Mac Bridge.
For the Airshow and Cherryfest this year in Traverse City, MI
Just a great pic.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Daryk on 30 June 2019, 09:35:13
That really puts the size of the Raptor into perspective...  :o
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Kidd on 30 June 2019, 10:29:39
On a related note to previous question... What is the maximum speeds at which air combat with guns is possible? Assuming the fastest and most capable aircraft gun is used.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Daryk on 30 June 2019, 10:33:44
I suppose that depends on what you mean by "possible"... even "slow" guns can hit with a sufficient lead.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Luciora on 30 June 2019, 10:43:01
So long as the firing plane doesn't overtake the bullets.

I suppose that depends on what you mean by "possible"... even "slow" guns can hit with a sufficient lead.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Daryk on 30 June 2019, 10:47:10
Good point, but I think that realm is at least in the hypersonic range...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Luciora on 30 June 2019, 11:12:57
We actually had a partial discussion on that earlier on this thread.

Good point, but I think that realm is at least in the hypersonic range...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Daryk on 30 June 2019, 11:26:15
My memory is failing me... around what post was that?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Sabelkatten on 30 June 2019, 11:26:34
Bullets slow down pretty quickly (compared to aircraft).

Thought, technically, as long as you turn away before you overtake the bullets you can fire at ridiculous speeds. Of course at sufficient speeds you can pull tricks like shooting someone chasing you by getting him to fly into you bullets... ;D
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Daryk on 30 June 2019, 11:31:11
No argument there... I just don't recall the earlier conversation...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Luciora on 30 June 2019, 12:09:09
Couldn't find the start, but this link was my contribution to it.

https://www.popularmechanics.com/military/aviation/a27967/the-fighter-plane-that-shot-itself-down/
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Daryk on 30 June 2019, 12:23:54
The trick there was that the plane accelerated after firing... in a dog fight, you're presumably going to be turning like crazy, and that shouldn't be a problem.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Kidd on 30 June 2019, 14:16:47
I was thinking more about limitations in the pilot's/system's ability to track the target

I mean, imagine if we had hypersonic 20mm aircraft cannon, could it suddenly make a resurgence in WVR combat?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 30 June 2019, 14:30:03
There's got to be ballistic studies of typical cannon rounds used; it's really only a two factor problem - the air resistance slowing the round down, and the fixed g value pulling the round downward.  I can imagine going supersonic and using guns will screw up your accuracy, simply because you've got the supersonic shell making its own shockwave and then attempting to pass through a second one as it goes forward.  Something like shooting a bullet through angled glass and getting a deflection, since that ridge of high pressure would have some effect on the bullet as it passes through.

Maybe it won't matter much, since the transition through the shockwave will be exceedingly fast with a muzzle velocity of 3500fps or so off the 20mm M61, but it's a thing.  A bullet going transsonic downrange and passing through its OWN shockwave destabilizes badly, which is why the .408 Chey-Tac became popular over the .50 BMG for extreme-range shooting.  It stays supersonic for about another thousand yards past the .50, and doesn't destabilize until further down.

Purely speculative, but I can see it being a potential problem.  As far as historical records?  Well, there's this.
http://www.nickelonthegrass.net/MiG_Kill.htm (http://www.nickelonthegrass.net/MiG_Kill.htm)
CAUTION: NSFW AUDIO AND TEXT
Brenda 01, F-4E Phantom, made a gun engagement at somewhere above 800+ knots on a target with extreme deflection on a MiG-19 at approx 500kts and made a visually confirmed kill.  So I suppose, for the Phantom at least with that gun right at the nose, the supersonic deflection wasn't an issue.  Then again at only a few hundred feet, extreme accuracy with 300 rounds of 20mm cannon fire isn't quite so much a worry...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Elmoth on 30 June 2019, 14:56:35
Related:

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e3/MV-22_mcas_Miramar_2014.JPG/300px-MV-22_mcas_Miramar_2014.JPG)

Karnov FTW
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 30 June 2019, 15:32:41
How much air-to-air combat still occurs at this point, anyway?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 30 June 2019, 17:30:47
India and Pakistan had themselves a decent air battle in February, a MiG-21 bagged an F-16 before getting taken down itself.  A group of 24 Pakistani aircraft tried to make a deep strike on a brigade HQ, with an unspecified number of Indian jets and ground SAMs engaged.

https://www.indiatoday.in/india/story/india-pakistan-f16-mig21-dogfight-minute-by-minute-1472548-2019-03-07
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Fat Guy on 30 June 2019, 18:39:38
  How long, believably, could an air force rely on piston power (air- and water- cooled) into the 1950s and 1960s for most situations? 


Fun fact: 1969's Soccer War between El Salvador and Honduras was fought by both sides with American WWII aircraft types. The war was the last conflict in which piston-engined fighters fought each other. Honduran Air Force Captain Fernando Soto in an F4U-5NL Corsair downed a Salvadoran TF-51D Cavalier Mustang II and two FG-1D Goodyear Corsairs.


Here's his plane:
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/34/Chance_vought_corsair_f4u-5n_FAH-609.jpg/1280px-Chance_vought_corsair_f4u-5n_FAH-609.jpg)

El Salvador continued to fly its surviving Corsairs into 1975; Honduras didn't retire its fleet until 1979.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Kidd on 30 June 2019, 19:54:28
@ANS Kamas - how the hell did that guy's missiles bat 0/4, geez. I bet he had a lot to say to the weapons folks on the ground.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 30 June 2019, 22:06:32
@ANS Kamas - how the hell did that guy's missiles bat 0/4, geez. I bet he had a lot to say to the weapons folks on the ground.
There's a reason for the memetically loud screaming for the Phantom to have a gun in "the days of missile supremacy."  Early AIM-9s were horrible, in all honesty; they couldn't see anything cooler than a jet exhaust, they had an 11-degree-per-second turn rate at most with the seeker head, and it was only intended to engage slow-and-straight jet bombers and not fighters.  You had a terrible engagement cone with them and needed to be nearly straight behind your target or else the weapon wouldn't see the target - and that only if the target's rear end was in clear view and not going crazy maneuvering.

And yet they only had a 2.6 mile range, which meant you couldn't just snipe at a distance with them, while the vacuum-tube-based electronics were...notoriously unreliable.  So if you COULD manage to line up a shot with a Sidewinder odds are it would break and just go ballistic, or else it would lose its target and go ballistic because said target turned, or it never got a proper heat lock and went ballistic, or it got scared and decided it wasn't going to let go of papa's wing in the first place.

I've read launch-kill ratios of that thing, early on especially, were something like 10%...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 30 June 2019, 22:25:10
I remember hearing that they would also occasionally lock onto the sun.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Feenix74 on 30 June 2019, 23:00:24
If my memory serves me correctly, the AIM-9L was the first all-aspects Sidewinder but even then the recommended tactic was to get shot from the 6 o'clock position to give it the best chance of getting/holding a good lock and being able to hit the target.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: glitterboy2098 on 30 June 2019, 23:47:48
There's a reason for the memetically loud screaming for the Phantom to have a gun in "the days of missile supremacy."  Early AIM-9s were horrible, in all honesty; they couldn't see anything cooler than a jet exhaust, they had an 11-degree-per-second turn rate at most with the seeker head, and it was only intended to engage slow-and-straight jet bombers and not fighters.  You had a terrible engagement cone with them and needed to be nearly straight behind your target or else the weapon wouldn't see the target - and that only if the target's rear end was in clear view and not going crazy maneuvering.

And yet they only had a 2.6 mile range, which meant you couldn't just snipe at a distance with them, while the vacuum-tube-based electronics were...notoriously unreliable.  So if you COULD manage to line up a shot with a Sidewinder odds are it would break and just go ballistic, or else it would lose its target and go ballistic because said target turned, or it never got a proper heat lock and went ballistic, or it got scared and decided it wasn't going to let go of papa's wing in the first place.

I've read launch-kill ratios of that thing, early on especially, were something like 10%...
and the AIM-7 Sparrows weren't much better.. the early ones were beam riders so you had to carefully steer the radar to follow the target.. usually meant you couldn't do much more than fly straight and level yourself. (good vs bombers, not much else.) the later models were semi-active guidance, locking onto the reflected radar signal. you still had to track the target with your radar, but not quite as precisely and at that point you had radars designed to be able to do at least some of the tracking themselves, letting the firing plane manuever a bit more.

sadly all of the Sparrows in the vietnam war had a pretty bad malfunction rate. they'd often either fail to lock on or fail to detonate. plus the rules of engagement rarely allowed them to be used at BVR ranges where they actually worked best, instead forcing visual confirmation of targets, at ranges where keeping the radar on target was trickier and the missiles limited turn rate made it easier to evade.

combined with the issues with the sidewinders, it made missiles very unreliable. unfortunately many of the pilots had not been trained in dogfighting (as missiles were supposed to make that obsolete), and the newer aircraft like the F-4 didn't carry internal guns (which were also supposed to have been rendered obsolete)
while the Russian designed aircraft often had similar issues with their missiles, they had internal guns and generally had received at least basic training in dogfight techniques for their fighters.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 01 July 2019, 06:28:09
Read "Every Man A Tiger."  It goes into a lot of what happened to the USAF after Korea, through Vietnam, and how the first Gulf War was handled after seeing all the mistakes made.  But the biggest core reason for the lack of serious fighter training, the focus on the bombers, and all of that was SAC.  The Air Force was laser-focused on nuclear warfare, to the point that even F-100 pilots spent a lot of time training in how to deliver nuclear weapons.  You know, our first supersonic fighter jets for air supremacy, not dropping canned sunlight on cities.  Guns were obsolete, missiles were only good against waves of incoming bombers, and everyone was more interested in dropping nukes than air combat.  The Air Force just got too blind to any other mission BUT nuclear delivery, and the service suffered horribly for it.

I'm not arguing anything rule 4, just bringing up history - 'these were the decisions that were made'  And the book's an excellent read, really, on what happens in an Air Force in good times and bad.

while the Russian designed aircraft often had similar issues with their missiles, they had internal guns and generally had received at least basic training in dogfight techniques for their fighters.
We did have SOME basic dogfight training but it was primarily against same-airframe stuff.  DACT didn't come in until much later; people who drove F-105s practiced against F-105s almost entirely, and...learned how to dogfight against the F-105.  The problem here is obvious, when you look at the MiG-15, 17, 19, and 21 compared to the Thunderchief...

I'm guessing the Russians never bothered with forcing their tactical air units into the nuclear delivery role.  I've never read anything suggesting the above birds (and their Sukhoi companions) were ever fitted or trained with nukes, so they got to be actual fighter pilots more than anything else.

Granted, once later AIM-9s came online, and Sparrow got its head out of its rear and SARH and look-down shoot-down became things, then the Air Force did a lot better.  Certainly that was demonstrated in 1991...but by then they'd also had the Fighter Mafia revolution and had stopped trying to make everyone deliver hugs with nuclear arms.

I read way too much, LOL.  Still, strong recommendation of the book, it's totally worth it.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Luciora on 01 July 2019, 09:01:10
Found something interesting.

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/travel/ercoupe-was-airplane-anyone-can-fly-until-it-wasnt-180956769/
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Bedwyr on 01 July 2019, 09:36:47
Found something interesting.

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/travel/ercoupe-was-airplane-anyone-can-fly-until-it-wasnt-180956769/

Yeah, it was a fairly stable airplane, but as with much in aviation there are always tradeoffs. This links to the AOPA article that describes several significant ones:

Quote
Which brings up the airplane’s safety record. There may be scant mention of stalls in the Ercoupe’s accident history, but there sure are a lot of steep descents to impact. Chop the power in an Ercoupe and you’ll see what I mean. As speed drops, so does the ship—alarmingly so when near the ground. So it may resist stalls, but it’s the king of level-attitude mushing at low power. The fact that Ercoupe manuals recommend an odd technique if you find yourself high on final and want to lose altitude should be a clue: “…The flight path may be steepened by rolling the airplane from side to side, dipping each wing 20 to 30 degrees. If the altitude is sufficiently high, this can be done satisfactorily with the wheel held full back and height is lost quite rapidly…” the Univair manual states. Yikes!

The airplane:
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/93/Erco_F-1_Ercoupe_CF-NLX_02.JPG/300px-Erco_F-1_Ercoupe_CF-NLX_02.JPG)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Colt Ward on 01 July 2019, 10:06:19

Fun fact: 1969's Soccer War between El Salvador and Honduras was fought by both sides with American WWII aircraft types. The war was the last conflict in which piston-engined fighters fought each other. Honduran Air Force Captain Fernando Soto in an F4U-5NL Corsair downed a Salvadoran TF-51D Cavalier Mustang II and two FG-1D Goodyear Corsairs.


Here's his plane:
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/34/Chance_vought_corsair_f4u-5n_FAH-609.jpg/1280px-Chance_vought_corsair_f4u-5n_FAH-609.jpg)

El Salvador continued to fly its surviving Corsairs into 1975; Honduras didn't retire its fleet until 1979.

I think it might be a interesting viability study to look at props as a defensive air fleet loaded with missiles.  Not sure the cost difference between prop and jet would offset the payload difference (number of AIM-120s frex) but keeping them NoE to fire 'up' at incoming jets might be a viable strategy . . . though expect to take losses to your props.  And I think your NoE would require some hill/mountain terrain, something to get lost in the clutter.  Also wonder if you could loft a bigger payload of missiles if they used JATO or similar for take off.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Kidd on 01 July 2019, 10:27:38
It's an idea that has been explored, but frankly even the likes of the T-X has serious compromises for air policing.

The biggest problem is that of speed. Unless it has the best possible approach, even a high subsonic light fighter could hardly even catch up to a Boeing 747 and can probably totally forget about a stern chase.... Never mind a turboprop.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Colt Ward on 01 July 2019, 10:31:55
Huh?  I am not talking about catching up, bluntly that is the missiles job.  More that the cheaper prop job carries more missiles aloft in the face of incoming and gets more missile throw weight as a defensive measure against fighters and fighter bombers.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: beachhead1985 on 01 July 2019, 11:42:58
I think it might be a interesting viability study to look at props as a defensive air fleet loaded with missiles.  Not sure the cost difference between prop and jet would offset the payload difference (number of AIM-120s frex) but keeping them NoE to fire 'up' at incoming jets might be a viable strategy . . . though expect to take losses to your props.  And I think your NoE would require some hill/mountain terrain, something to get lost in the clutter.  Also wonder if you could loft a bigger payload of missiles if they used JATO or similar for take off.

USAF has looked at variations of this concept a few times. I don't think I ever saw lofting the missiles on prop-jobs, but I am sure that if they trusted missiles enough in the 60s, they could have tried that too.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Daryk on 01 July 2019, 16:23:17
The USAF has also never seriously looked at attacks from Mexico or Canada... both valid assumptions.  Smaller countries have different calculus...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 01 July 2019, 18:44:57
From Mexico, no, but that's simply because that country entirely lacks any sort of combat capable air force.  80% of it is observation planes (Cessna, Pilatus, etc) with some decent recon aircraft for internal policing; the rest is some lift capability in the capital (ostensibly for VIPs) and transport helicopters.  Bazooka Charlie would be a legitimate ground-attack threat in that environment.  Their army on the other hand, that's a bit more of a threat at both a decent size and well-equipped even if it lacks heavy armor units.

From CANADA, well, we've had War Plan Red since the 1920s, and the military does come up with weird scenarios for both "just in case" situations as well as outside the box training, and breaking the 'but that can't happen' mindset.  And Canada, at least, has a decent tactically-capable air force compared to Mexico.

The Marines practice some weird ideas; a friend of mine in 3MAW mentioned his battalion doing an exercise where their base came under attack by ghosts. They had to figure out what was happening, how it was happening within the rules of the scenario, figure out what those rules were, and then handle the situation.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Daryk on 01 July 2019, 18:48:39
I would dare posit that an attack by ghosts is MORE likely than an attack by the folks we're sitting next to in NORAD...  ^-^
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Kidd on 01 July 2019, 19:00:08
Huh?  I am not talking about catching up, bluntly that is the missiles job.  More that the cheaper prop job carries more missiles aloft in the face of incoming and gets more missile throw weight as a defensive measure against fighters and fighter bombers.
2 things; missile kinematics and intercepts. Firstly, a prop job or subsonic fighter would get less range out of the missile.

Secondly, home defence requires aircraft which can make intercepts of potentially hostile/in trouble aircraft. That means, at least, the ability to overhaul a Boeing 747, and make a WVR assessment and/or close escort.

It's hard for even a high-subsonic light jet to do this, because the QRA or even airborne CAP fighter, may have to cover some distance quite fast in order to reach the aircraft, which may be travelling away from it.

For example, if a Boeing 747 behaves suspiciously, and an intercept is necessary to see if it's about to pull a Lockerbie, a turboprop can probably forget about it unless said 747 is moving directly towards it. Stern chase would be right out even for a high-subsonic light jet.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 01 July 2019, 19:09:15
For example, if a Boeing 747 behaves suspiciously, and an intercept is necessary to see if it's about to pull a Lockerbie
Or if someone's being a complete ******* and running civilian transponders/IFF on a bomber for a sneak attack...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: dgorsman on 01 July 2019, 19:33:54
Gotta watch out for those ghost Mounties.   :D   Aaaand now I'm in the mood to watch re-runs of Due South.

It's not a bad idea.  Helps keep people from settling into figuring out what scenario version this is and what the accepted responses are, instead of working on problem solving.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Feenix74 on 01 July 2019, 19:40:46
No sure that the future is a bunch of small piston or turbo-prop manned bomb/missile trucks to support the gold/silver bullets of F-22 and F-35.

However, the general idea has merit, if you are talking about a B-52, or a C-130 or a B-737 derivative bomb/missile truck that is datalinked and can add throw weight to the gold/silver bullets. These type of platforms will give you the throw-weight and the loiter time. However, a better option would be a large UAV like Global Hawk which would mean your loiter time is limited by fuel and maintenance requirements not by the zoombaggers filling the on-board toilets to capacity.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Kidd on 01 July 2019, 19:46:17
Supersonic UAV might be better - and I suspect, is what people are moving towards.

There's no reason why a post-legacy air force shouldn't consist of high-end fast jets and a wing or so of COIN turboprops.

It would mirror the direction the world's navies are going; high-end destroyers/frigates de facto cruisers for peer conflicts, and a bunch of OPVs with nowt but a 30mm gun for police work
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Istal_Devalis on 02 July 2019, 08:41:32
However, the general idea has merit, if you are talking about a B-52, or a C-130 or a B-737 derivative bomb/missile truck that is datalinked and can add throw weight to the gold/silver bullets. These type of platforms will give you the throw-weight and the loiter time. However, a better option would be a large UAV like Global Hawk which would mean your loiter time is limited by fuel and maintenance requirements not by the zoombaggers filling the on-board toilets to capacity.
They decided on using F-15s for it, apparently. The F-15X, in two variants, a single seat and a two seater version. Can carry up to 22 missiles via AMBER racks.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Fat Guy on 02 July 2019, 09:48:58
Actually they're only buying two seaters. The single seat Eagle has a different cockpit line (hence different aerodynamics). To avoid the time and expense of testing and certification of a single seater, the ones going to units operating C models will simply fly with empty back seats.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: I am Belch II on 03 July 2019, 03:59:20
The B1-R is not going to happen. That was going to be a re-engined missile carrier version of the B-1. With a speed of over Mach 2 and carry 24 Amrams.
But if you can get a new F-15X that is still being built a lot cheaper and carry 22 missiles, think I know where that Idea will end up.

Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 03 July 2019, 05:41:25
Would have been the best named aircraft, too...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Cannonshop on 03 July 2019, 12:02:19
The B1-R is not going to happen. That was going to be a re-engined missile carrier version of the B-1. With a speed of over Mach 2 and carry 24 Amrams.
But if you can get a new F-15X that is still being built a lot cheaper and carry 22 missiles, think I know where that Idea will end up.

such a shame, but still, only 24??? such a shame.  something that big ought to be able to loft a lot more dakka than that...you know, for Science.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Colt Ward on 03 July 2019, 13:13:55
Dakka?  Man I tell the toddler, its either pewpew, bangbang or whooshwhoosh . . . and 24 missiles would be whooshwhoosh!

My bet is its refitting the bomb bay not the lifting capacity.  Its part of why I heard they had problems with conventional bombs rather than nukes, its the design of the weapons bay.  I think it also lacks as many external hardpoints . . . now, it PROBABLY has greater range/endurance for those 24 missiles than the F-15 version, but even that might be up in the air.

I mean, I remember the Old Dog suggestions of B-52s mounting 120s to kiss fighters at long range . . .
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Bren on 03 July 2019, 18:10:09
(https://i.imgur.com/WCC3JJa.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Orin J. on 03 July 2019, 21:15:45
you think they saw when the ground came up to hug them?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Kidd on 06 July 2019, 03:37:10
Like the cover of some War Picture Library

(https://i.postimg.cc/7YGpMNvL/840ptcokz4831.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 06 July 2019, 04:55:21
Like the cover of some War Picture Library
Ah, the P-47 Thunderbrrt.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Daryk on 06 July 2019, 05:42:46
With tracers, no less!  8)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Euphonium on 06 July 2019, 08:02:58
You mean it didn't really have lazer deth rayz?  :(
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Fat Guy on 11 July 2019, 13:22:58
Skyworks Global and Scaled Composites will offer their VertiJet gyrodyne aircraft for the US Army's Future Vertical Lift competition.

The VertiJet is a runway-independent aircraft that can take off and land vertically and hover similar to a helicopter. VertiJet will incorporate technologies designed and developed by Skyworks in the US Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency's (DARPA's) Heliplane programme to achieve an estimated top speed of 644 km/h and a range of 1,000 n miles with a maximum payload of 454 kg. Skyworks and Scaled Composites are targeting VertiJet's unit cost for the USD 6-8 million range.

(https://www.janes.com/images/assets/809/89809/p1734401_main.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Weirdo on 11 July 2019, 13:38:22
Looks like a refinement of the Xwing program...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: worktroll on 11 July 2019, 14:45:51
(http://www.tobor2.com/helijet/helijet2.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Garrand on 11 July 2019, 15:12:12
Skyworks Global and Scaled Composites will offer their VertiJet gyrodyne aircraft for the US Army's Future Vertical Lift competition.

The VertiJet is a runway-independent aircraft that can take off and land vertically and hover similar to a helicopter. VertiJet will incorporate technologies designed and developed by Skyworks in the US Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency's (DARPA's) Heliplane programme to achieve an estimated top speed of 644 km/h and a range of 1,000 n miles with a maximum payload of 454 kg. Skyworks and Scaled Composites are targeting VertiJet's unit cost for the USD 6-8 million range.

(https://www.janes.com/images/assets/809/89809/p1734401_main.jpg)

Only 454kgs??? That's around 1000lbs. Less than a P-51 from WWII. What sort of role is envisioned for an aircraft with such a small payload? I'm assuming a typo there...

Damon.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: worktroll on 11 July 2019, 15:34:26
Pilot, copilot, four defence consultants and their laptops ... seems about right ;)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: I am Belch II on 11 July 2019, 15:50:34
(http://www.tobor2.com/helijet/helijet2.jpg)

Looks kinda like this.
GI Joe the Movie is on the cable and watching it lately.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: hoosierhick on 11 July 2019, 15:54:50
Only 454kgs??? That's around 1000lbs. Less than a P-51 from WWII. What sort of role is envisioned for an aircraft with such a small payload? I'm assuming a typo there...

Damon.

That's what their brochure says:  https://www.skyworks-global.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/Skyworks-Heliplane-Brochure.pdf (https://www.skyworks-global.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/Skyworks-Heliplane-Brochure.pdf)

That thing reminds me of the Carter Copter, but it's using jet thrust from the tips of the rotor to drive it plus jet engines for forward thrust instead of a prop.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 11 July 2019, 16:15:31
Skyworks Global and Scaled Composites will offer their VertiJet gyrodyne aircraft for the US Army's Future Vertical Lift competition.

The VertiJet is a runway-independent aircraft that can take off and land vertically and hover similar to a helicopter. VertiJet will incorporate technologies designed and developed by Skyworks in the US Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency's (DARPA's) Heliplane programme to achieve an estimated top speed of 644 km/h and a range of 1,000 n miles with a maximum payload of 454 kg. Skyworks and Scaled Composites are targeting VertiJet's unit cost for the USD 6-8 million range.

(https://www.janes.com/images/assets/809/89809/p1734401_main.jpg)

I look at that picture and I hear cheesy 80s action movie music.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: dgorsman on 11 July 2019, 17:18:12
Looks kinda like this.
GI Joe the Movie is on the cable and watching it lately.

I'm thinking more MASK, myself.

And speaking of the movie, watch G I Joe: Resolute if you haven't seen it.  Same anniversary idea as the live action movie but infinitely better.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 11 July 2019, 22:52:08
To be fair, a thousand pound payload is still enough for a Sniper ATP with four Hellfires on one aircraft and up to ten more on a wingman.  For the kinds of small point-target COIN work these things will do, I don't see much more need than that (and 14 hellfires is likely overkill, odds are they can do the job with a designator and four missiles each) for a rig.  That's assuming it doesn't come with onboard optics and whatnot to do the job in the first place.

It's quick, which is a benefit for responding to incidents, decent range which implies good loiter time, and if it's true VTOL and not something like a gyroplane then park the thing anywhere and rearm in north BFE with a couple Marines to restock your weapons.

I look at that picture and I hear cheesy 80s action movie music.
Gotcha covered Ogre. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ULfmowbNlK0)
(come on, who wasn't hearing that play in your head anyway?)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 12 July 2019, 00:00:50
Gotcha covered Ogre. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ULfmowbNlK0)
(come on, who wasn't hearing that play in your head anyway?)

Yup.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 12 July 2019, 03:10:31
Images I'm seeing elsewhere have them with four twin-packs of Hellfires, two packs on each wing.  That seems to be the plan for their tactical use, though I imagine you can also drop some rocket packs onboard for soft targets. 

(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/isSgE2wIBCU/maxresdefault.jpg)

I'm guessing the little ball on the nose's right side is some sort of sensor array; interesting it's forward looking and not belly mounted for better ground coverage.  Then again, there's a little dark colored block in that first pic in the belly...wonder if it's like the F-35's EOTS for the crew.  Battlefield surveillance and all that; I don't suppose they'll go into too much detail for now.

Still...big enough for a two man crew, plus maybe a sensor operator/air controller in the back. 
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Sharpnel on 12 July 2019, 03:45:06
That looks more like a Gatling-type machinegun than a sensor pod
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: CrossfirePilot on 12 July 2019, 08:16:02
I think the Piper Cherokee 6 that I have flown has a larger useful load!
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 12 July 2019, 10:15:26
Yeah, but it's not a bomber - it's an observer.  That tail structure should give it away; think of the OV-10s that even got reactivated a couple years ago.  This is basically the same airplane, just with magic VTOL powers and 200km/h faster.  And really, eight Hellfires is plenty for the mission role. 
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: dgorsman on 12 July 2019, 10:56:52
I can easily see those frequently replaced with SDB and SDB II.

I wonder if this design would supplant gunship model Ospreys?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: JadeHellbringer on 12 July 2019, 13:35:31
Yeah, but it's not a bomber - it's an observer.  That tail structure should give it away; think of the OV-10s that even got reactivated a couple years ago.  This is basically the same airplane, just with magic VTOL powers and 200km/h faster.  And really, eight Hellfires is plenty for the mission role.

...can't help but wonder if perhaps dropping further to six and adding a couple of Stingers isn't a bad move. After all, if you're already flying FOB jobs, can't hurt to be able to get rid of the enemy's version of your own bird.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Colt Ward on 12 July 2019, 14:06:03
For COIN?  I am surprised we are even talking about that many guided munitions.

And yeah, that looks like BURRRRRRT on the nose.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: I am Belch II on 12 July 2019, 15:15:46
It's a neat looking design. I've always wondered about the downforce of wind from the main rotor to that wing. But it don't seem to be a problem seeing how Helos have wings now at least stub wings.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: marauder648 on 12 July 2019, 15:17:37
(https://www.super-hobby.at/zdjecia/2/9/1/1150_rd.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: HobbesHurlbut on 12 July 2019, 15:55:59
Nice painting of a Hunter.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: chanman on 12 July 2019, 20:35:59
That's a Hawker Sea Hawk, actually
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 13 July 2019, 00:41:55
...can't help but wonder if perhaps dropping further to six and adding a couple of Stingers isn't a bad move. After all, if you're already flying FOB jobs, can't hurt to be able to get rid of the enemy's version of your own bird.
No disagreement there.  Also makes relatively decent medicine against helicopters if you get a really nasty surprise - not that you can't outrun every whirlybird in existence at 650km/h but still.

For COIN?  I am surprised we are even talking about that many guided munitions.
Moving convoy of insurgents.  Or tight targets; granted you're not going to be sniping individuals but pegging a single car near a hospital maybe.  Hellfires aren't that big on blast compared to typical bombs...and they'd also make really nice support against 2nd and 3rd gen tanks that have been showing up in conflict areas.  T-34-85s and SU-100s were seen in the Yemen fight in 2015, after all...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: I am Belch II on 13 July 2019, 03:57:30
I wonder how many Sea Hawks tails were damaged on landing with it sitting low like that??
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: beachhead1985 on 13 July 2019, 10:08:44
Skyworks Global and Scaled Composites will offer their VertiJet gyrodyne aircraft for the US Army's Future Vertical Lift competition.

The VertiJet is a runway-independent aircraft that can take off and land vertically and hover similar to a helicopter. VertiJet will incorporate technologies designed and developed by Skyworks in the US Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency's (DARPA's) Heliplane programme to achieve an estimated top speed of 644 km/h and a range of 1,000 n miles with a maximum payload of 454 kg. Skyworks and Scaled Composites are targeting VertiJet's unit cost for the USD 6-8 million range.

(https://www.janes.com/images/assets/809/89809/p1734401_main.jpg)

So they tried to spell "Cheyenne" and ended up with a funny accent on "LearJet"?

(https://i.pinimg.com/600x315/01/26/76/012676dc11451727a5fe0c68746d2609.jpg)
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/jt8QUrlpWgEHNKL7KHroko6f73CKIrM_7QQzJ_tL3x7TLiJQ9hAfY1OCMXSGvwEUxPbtcfVLO_7i0phcjHLvDiWEbCrrrbK9Kg9vZhP67pohq09UdETJzhO5gkaqNb9xvREtkyf6)
(http://www.aerospaceprojectsreview.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/cl-840-1024x794.jpg)
(http://up-ship.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/ah-56-cheyenne-art.jpg)
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/2Mpye2m5CbYclRKVQF7d124k5rS7rbnaaDpQdjqRJsIo-k1HOxVZUWsYteEOttbwV_jLupw3sr-Bhbt-LCi8TtUpZxKt4qx-vbh9urWGY-SBiWykOv18Utgp6DKhfbE_iFGfqZ53)

Airborne Shillelagh?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: I am Belch II on 13 July 2019, 10:28:59
Love how in that photo of the Cheyenne looks to have a Afterburning engine...and also that the Shillelagh missile was going to work like it was supposed to.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Kidd on 13 July 2019, 12:27:07
It's that crazy downward tailfin that gets me
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Fat Guy on 13 July 2019, 18:39:43
When talking helicopter gunships that never were, I always preferred the Sikorsky S-67 Blackhawk (one word) to the Cheyenne.


(https://www.sikorskyarchives.com/images/images%20S-67/S67-6A.jpg)


Would you like to know more? https://www.sikorskyarchives.com/S-67%20BLACKHAWK.php
 (https://www.sikorskyarchives.com/S-67%20BLACKHAWK.php)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Daryk on 13 July 2019, 19:35:08
That's... a LOT of rockets...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: DoctorMonkey on 14 July 2019, 07:23:31
That's... a LOT of rockets...


I'd prefer to see the outer pylons with a triple pod for proper More Dakka
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Ruger on 14 July 2019, 08:39:41

I'd prefer to see the outer pylons with a triple pod for proper More Dakka

Well, the Wikipedia article on it says it was capable of carrying 16 TOW's or even Sidewinder missiles (but doesn't mention how many of the latter), and up to 15 troops as well. Basically sounds like a US version of the Soviet/Russian Hind.

I still kind of like the look of the Cheyenne more, but this version BlackHawk is impressive. Too bad neither got very far in reality.

Ruger
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Cache on 14 July 2019, 09:03:58
Well, the Wikipedia article on it says it was capable of carrying 16 TOW's or even Sidewinder missiles (but doesn't mention how many of the latter), and up to 15 troops as well. Basically sounds like a US version of the Soviet/Russian Hind.
The Blackhawk? 16 is a bit high. FatGuy's link to Sikorsky Archives says it was modified to hold 6.

https://www.sikorskyarchives.com/S-67%20BLACKHAWK.php
 (https://www.sikorskyarchives.com/S-67%20BLACKHAWK.php)
Quote from: Sikorskyarchives.com
The army decided instead to initiate a new gunship program, the Armed Attack Helicopter, AAH, which eventually became the Hughes (now Boeing) AH-64 Apache.

Sikorsky then made a few modifications to the aircraft and embarked on a foreign tour.  The small cabin behind the cockpit was converted into a thermally- and acoustically-insulated troop compartment for six troops, with access provided through a door on the left side of the fuselage.

If they only modified the cabin and not the fuselage (except for the door), that had to suck for the troops. 1.17 meters outside width with thermal/acoustic insulation inside? Pez dispenser.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: marauder648 on 14 July 2019, 13:27:39
Always liked the Cheyanne, what killed it?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Fat Guy on 14 July 2019, 14:28:37
Too many problems and costs spiraling out of control.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Empyrus on 14 July 2019, 14:30:21
Always liked the Cheyanne, what killed it?
Looking at Wikipedia, technical issues, outdated systems, large size, and lack of survivability, as it had only a single engine.
And a demonstration where a TOW missile failed (despite being only one of over a hundred firings).
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 14 July 2019, 20:57:14
There's also the +P-hop test that took the life of a test pilot, in a test to determine the recoverability from a situation.  Except the Chey had already anticipated this and put in safety systems to prevent the rotor blades from getting into the cockpit...so the testers decided to disable those safety systems and run their test.

The equivalent is removing the seatbelt, airbag, and brakes from a car, then being utterly shocked that you kill the driver when you slam it into a bridge at high speed.

There were also changing desires in Army procurement and future warfare concepts.  Instead of what was basically a wickedly fast helicopter that could function somewhat like a light plane in its operations, with all kinds of mixed CAS operation possible (seriously look at that gun list) the decision was made to go with something that was a pure tankbuster to deal with Soviet armor.  Thus, we got the AH-64.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: PsihoKekec on 15 July 2019, 00:14:48
The fact that AH-1 was already in use also didn't help the program to survive.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 15 July 2019, 07:53:06
Amusingly, the single-engine complaint leveled against Cheyenne was never made against Cobra, and it didn't get its second turbine until 1972 - well after the cancellation.

I love combination design helicopters, I love the pusherprop system and what it could do to control the aircraft, and the sheer amount of firepower and speed that Cheyenne had (as well as the Gunstar's own actual gunner's station, watch it spin around someday) really made it an effective program.  It was stealthy to the guys on the ground too - not radar, but sound envelope; during observation tests the AH-56 was able to zoom up on the post at extreme low altitude at high speed.  She wasn't noticed until it was virtually overhead and well after it'd have fired on its target.

It was probably the perfect CAS bird, able to respond fast to a situation, carry a LOT of firepower, and get in those early shots.  Once the strategic plan and needs changed, pull-type CAS became less of a thing and tank-hunting from cover was the new way to go about it.  So Cheyenne was pushed off the board, and something new was done.

Still, it's a shame gyrodynes never took off, even in the civilian market.  Much higher speeds, more fuel, more capacity...well maybe now they'll get their chance.

Or maybe we'll fly this.
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/29/f7/4c/29f74c2f3e8c81dbc33dd932b90d3ddc.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Empyrus on 15 July 2019, 14:50:27
Still, it's a shame gyrodynes never took off, even in the civilian market.  Much higher speeds, more fuel, more capacity...well maybe now they'll get their chance.


What's the drawback? I mean, there must be one since they're not used. Technically more complex?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: snewsom2997 on 15 July 2019, 15:46:18
Complexity is all I can imagine, unless they have some inherently unstable flight characteristics. It isn't like you have extra transmissions, or anything, you are just changing the angle of the tail rotor or putting it in the front instead. Cannot be any more complicated than the V-22.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 15 July 2019, 17:36:09
I suppose there'd be big legal questions about them - with the wing structures involved that actually do provide lift at speed, are they counted as fixed-wing aircraft or rotary-wing aircraft?  Or a whole new third class that needs its own certifications, training, regulations, and so on? 
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: beachhead1985 on 15 July 2019, 19:18:44
Looking at Wikipedia, technical issues, outdated systems, large size, and lack of survivability, as it had only a single engine.
And a demonstration where a TOW missile failed (despite being only one of over a hundred firings).

Rule 4 stuff too.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: hoosierhick on 15 July 2019, 19:53:35
What's the drawback? I mean, there must be one since they're not used. Technically more complex?

Well...being really extremely bloody loud fuel hogs didn't help any.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Feenix74 on 15 July 2019, 20:37:23
The future Armed Reconnaissance Helicopter?

Hopefully the link and the video in the news story works for non-Australian based readers

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-07-15/french-inventor-wows-bastille-day-crowds-with-flyboard/11308980 (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-07-15/french-inventor-wows-bastille-day-crowds-with-flyboard/11308980)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 15 July 2019, 23:28:38
Ten minutes of flight time?  Isn't that about the same as most every other jetpack or hover device?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: HobbesHurlbut on 16 July 2019, 11:21:20
Ten minutes of flight time?  Isn't that about the same as most every other jetpack or hover device?
"He is now eyeing a crossing of the English Channel, which would require a refuelling in mid-flight."
Oh boy..... :o
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Dave Talley on 16 July 2019, 15:12:22
whats that gonna take?
5-6 barges like stepping stones?
land change battery, go
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Daryk on 16 July 2019, 15:14:08
I'm pretty sure he uses petrochemical fuel... it's hard to beat that energy density.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: truetanker on 17 July 2019, 17:45:37
(http://www.tobor2.com/helijet/helijet2.jpg)

For some reason I think of the Hawk from Space:1999!
                                                                                                                                 Thought it was an ended link...                                                                                                                                     OOPS!                                                                                                                                                        http://catacombs.space1999.net/main/models/hawk/imhawk3.jpg (http://catacombs.space1999.net/main/models/hawk/imhawk3.jpg)                   

TT
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 17 July 2019, 18:11:07
You're not supposed to link to active eBay auctions.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Weirdo on 17 July 2019, 19:59:17
And a link behind spoiler tags is still a posted link. C:-)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Fat Guy on 18 July 2019, 09:01:38
Yesterday was the 30th anniversary of the B-2 Spirit’s inaugural test flight on July 17, 1989 from Air Force Plant 42 at Palmdale, California.

(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-g9iMapqbIFw/US0gtne1tLI/AAAAAAAAg1w/m0PBZebNE_s/s1600/B-2_Spirit_Stealth_Bomber.jpg)


Where does the time go?  :wheelchair:
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: CrossfirePilot on 18 July 2019, 17:40:58
Yeah,

thanks for making me feel old...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: worktroll on 18 July 2019, 19:12:10
You want old? I remember seeing this on television.

(http://www.earthtothemoon.com/gt4_launch.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Daryk on 18 July 2019, 19:13:23
I bought my wife the Lego Lunar Lander for her birthday because she remembers seeing the landing on TV... I wasn't born quite yet...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: worktroll on 18 July 2019, 19:15:55
Me and the boys from the mill used to get together & pool our lego to make Saturn Vs - about 5'-6' tall, LEM was 4x4 bumps, legs swung out (not folded down). No special-purpose pieces available! At least we weren't trying to make the N1 ...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 18 July 2019, 21:28:37
Me and the boys from the mill used to get together & pool our lego to make Saturn Vs - about 5'-6' tall, LEM was 4x4 bumps, legs swung out (not folded down). No special-purpose pieces available! At least we weren't trying to make the N1 ...
Not hard, just build it hollow and fill it full of July 4 fireworks.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: chanman on 19 July 2019, 20:43:12
(http://imgproc.airliners.net/photos/airliners/7/5/8/2205857.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 19 July 2019, 21:48:49
Did a post get removed?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Kidd on 19 July 2019, 21:55:33

I think there's a problem linking externally from that file so here's an alternate host

(https://i.postimg.cc/K8TVsQf7/2205857.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 19 July 2019, 22:28:25
Is it a jet-powered P-38?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Colt Ward on 20 July 2019, 00:19:06
hmm, a CAS/COIN bird for dumb weapons?  I think it needs some buuurrrrrrrttt, but who knows.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: chanman on 20 July 2019, 00:21:37
Myasishchev M-55 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myasishchev_M-55)

It's a high-altitude research aircraft. Think of NASA's converted B-57s

Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Fat Guy on 20 July 2019, 14:45:14
More like a failed effort to develop their own U-2 analog.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: chanman on 20 July 2019, 20:06:33
More like a failed effort to develop their own U-2 analog.

It was decades late to be a U-2 analog. They already had Foxbats by then anyhow
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: CrossfirePilot on 21 July 2019, 12:14:08
Was at the Duluth airshow yesterday. I took some pics and will try to get them posted when I get around to resizing.  Watched the F 35 demonstration.  I was awed watching that thing turn on a dime. As a bonus one of the guys that I used to fly with was doing the F4U corsair demo. 
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Daryk on 21 July 2019, 13:25:20
Cool... looking forward to the pics!  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: DaveMac on 22 July 2019, 10:00:07
Anyone fancy a Stuka?

Bits of one anyway

https://www.boschungglobal.com/Inventory/Projects/Junkers/Ju87-D-3-%22Stuka%22/Currently-not-registered

The FHCA example will be flying well before this one

https://flyingheritage.org/Explore/The-Collection/Germany/Junkers-Ju-87-R-4-Stuka.aspx



Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Cache on 28 July 2019, 10:00:42
B-24 Diamond Lil and B-29 FIFI (http://www.airpowersquadron.org/b29-schedule) are doing flights out of LaCrosse, WI this weekend, and they're flying within 1/4 mile of us at my dad's farm. Such an amazing sight and sound. I might actually remember my camera next pass.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Cache on 28 July 2019, 11:50:09
Photo is far less impressive than the real flyby. Pays to know the pilot... he circled the farm for us.  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Cache on 28 July 2019, 13:18:57
And FIFI just passed on over. Some day I'll have to buy a ticket for a ride.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: hoosierhick on 28 July 2019, 15:09:36
I'd love to take a ride on Fifi sometime.  This is as close as I've got.

(https://i.imgur.com/ZPbBiK9.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 28 July 2019, 16:30:54
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XakK81edKFA

As close as I know I'll ever get.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: hoosierhick on 30 July 2019, 16:37:40
That is a cool video.  Thanks for posting!

Notice anything odd about this B-17?  ;)

(https://i.imgur.com/kK3hWP0.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: God and Davion on 30 July 2019, 16:40:05
A Liberator had  night of passion with a B17 and this happened a few months later?

Nice hybrid. Great picture!
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Dave Talley on 30 July 2019, 16:40:25
YB40?
aka too heavily armored to keep up witht the guys he is supposed to
cover
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: HobbesHurlbut on 30 July 2019, 18:17:53
YB40?
aka too heavily armored to keep up witht the guys he is supposed to
cover
NOt armored, too heavily armed. and that's not the YB40 in the picture.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Luciora on 30 July 2019, 18:39:32
Oooh a Privateer. Love that one!
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: HobbesHurlbut on 30 July 2019, 19:30:06
Oooh a Privateer. Love that one!
It's not the PB4Y-2 Privateer which is a Liberator derivative. This plane is B-17 chassis with turrets seemingly taken from Privateer.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: hoosierhick on 31 July 2019, 15:48:36
Ok...more info on the B-17: https://ww2aircraft.net/forum/threads/boeing-b-17e-flying-fortress-the-dreamboat-nose.43506/ (https://ww2aircraft.net/forum/threads/boeing-b-17e-flying-fortress-the-dreamboat-nose.43506/)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: HobbesHurlbut on 01 August 2019, 07:16:06
Ok...more info on the B-17: https://ww2aircraft.net/forum/threads/boeing-b-17e-flying-fortress-the-dreamboat-nose.43506/ (https://ww2aircraft.net/forum/threads/boeing-b-17e-flying-fortress-the-dreamboat-nose.43506/)
Thank you for that. Wow it really was a major improvement with one flaw (concentration of the crew in the forward fuselage).
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Luciora on 01 August 2019, 08:29:00
Still a beauty,  thanks for the correction!
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: DoctorMonkey on 01 August 2019, 11:56:10
Thank you for that. Wow it really was a major improvement with one flaw (concentration of the crew in the forward fuselage).


Why do you view that as a flaw? I know that the changes might alter the centre of gravity and mean that the aircraft needs re-balancing but the change of armament seems to make things both more effective and more efficient


I find the argument that a single shell takes out everyone to be an unfounded concern as the survival of the plane is really reliant on the survival of pilots and controls rather than everyone else
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: HobbesHurlbut on 01 August 2019, 14:28:47

Why do you view that as a flaw? I know that the changes might alter the centre of gravity and mean that the aircraft needs re-balancing but the change of armament seems to make things both more effective and more efficient


I find the argument that a single shell takes out everyone to be an unfounded concern as the survival of the plane is really reliant on the survival of pilots and controls rather than everyone else
I never said it was a major flaw, but it was only one. Against a good variety of improvements.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: glitterboy2098 on 01 August 2019, 19:27:22
seems to me that if the concern is the crew being vulnerable to attack, you could just stick some armor onto the crew area? accept a slightly reduced bomb load in favor of improved durability.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: worktroll on 05 August 2019, 11:25:29
Japan prototypes the Cardinal transport ...

(https://i.cbc.ca/1.5236576.1565015229!/cpImage/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/16x9_780/japan-flying-car.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Colt Ward on 05 August 2019, 12:40:19
Saw a headline with this as a flying car . . . really looks like a flying stroller.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 05 August 2019, 16:09:56
A flying grocery cart that was designed by Apple.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Colt Ward on 05 August 2019, 16:25:11
Nah, those back wheels are definitely from a jogging stroller . . . I shoved that crap in my car enough to know.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 06 August 2019, 19:29:48
How good is over 36 minutes of F4U Corsair goodness?  It's good.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U9zPKQilC-s

How good is over 36 minutes of eleven of them in formation and making attacks on the runway and wowing the crowd?  In heaven, the air echoes with the sound of those Double Wasps.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: I am Belch II on 06 August 2019, 20:37:53
How good is over 36 minutes of F4U Corsair goodness?  It's good.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U9zPKQilC-s

How good is over 36 minutes of eleven of them in formation and making attacks on the runway and wowing the crowd?  In heaven, the air echoes with the sound of those Double Wasps.

That was at Thunder Over Michigan this year. I missed it....normally work the airshows. A couple of years ago I was there when there were 12 Merlin and 1 Allison Engine P-51s started their engines. Such a nice sound.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 07 August 2019, 12:40:19
Damn if China doesn't know how to make a wicked looking attack bird.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: HobbesHurlbut on 07 August 2019, 13:33:43
Damn if China doesn't know how to make a wicked looking attack bird.
Look like a streamlined Apache, going off the frontal profile.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: snewsom2997 on 07 August 2019, 13:45:48
Look like a streamlined Apache, going off the frontal profile.

Looks like they just copied wholesale and rounded the edges.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Kidd on 07 August 2019, 14:07:37
Looks like they copied the RAH-66 Comanche body shape actually.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: worktroll on 07 August 2019, 14:16:26
Dolphins, sharks, and tuna all have more or less the same body shape, because they're all trying to do similar things - push a large body through the water fast. Same principle - parallel evolution - applies. Attack choppers want as small a frontal profile as possible, to minimise the area to armour, and to minimise the target area. 

One thing I like about Soviet-era equipment - they used very different design paradigms. No-one would ever mistake a Hind for a Cobra ...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Kidd on 07 August 2019, 15:10:32
What I mean is this:

RAH-66 Comanche
(https://i.postimg.cc/DwC2yFFm/52551277-comanche.jpg)

Z-10
(https://i.postimg.cc/zGfrQMWN/Z-10-ME-01-692x360.jpg)

versus

AH-64 Apache
(https://i.postimg.cc/D0c9jdwm/An-Apache-Attack-helicopter-Image-courtesy-of-Wikipedia-Commons.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 07 August 2019, 15:48:28
But the Apache isn't trying to be stealthy, while Comanche and Z-10 are.  Therefore the Z-10 will resemble stealthy aircraft, because they're all doing the same thing and 90 degree angles and curved things are Bad For Stealth.  Hex shapes and smooth surfaces are Good For Stealth.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Dave Talley on 07 August 2019, 16:00:44
semi sorta looks like the eurocopter Tiger,
but yeah convergent evolution at work here
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Fat Guy on 07 August 2019, 17:35:56
I think it resembles the Mangusta more than anything else.

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c5/Agusta_A129A_Mangusta%2C_Italy_-_Army_JP6364823.jpg/1200px-Agusta_A129A_Mangusta%2C_Italy_-_Army_JP6364823.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Sharpnel on 07 August 2019, 18:51:00
My thoughts exactly. The Chinese do a good job of ripping off emulating the western European designs
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: worktroll on 07 August 2019, 19:41:27
Shuttle/Buran. Concorde/Tu-144. Simply the knowledge that X can be done, and was done in one way, means you save time trying to do X by doing it similar ways. After all, it worked for the other guys ...

The B-70 and Sukhoi T-4 are good examples. The T-4 was a medium-range anti-shipping bomber, much smaller than the Valkyrie. The shape, though ... But there are enough differences that it's not a copy/clone. Let's just say "Reseen" ... ;)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: chanman on 07 August 2019, 20:52:59
Look like a streamlined Apache, going off the frontal profile.

It's substantially lighter than an Apache, coming in somewhere between the Tiger and the Cobra. The Mi-28, by the way is one heavy sucker, and of course the Hind is in a class of its own as far as attack helos go.
The Mangusta is a lot lighter - it's closer to the Z-19 in weight.

The most interesting thing about the Z-10 to me is that Kamov co-designed it. When was the last time anyone's seen a conventional layout chopper from Kamov?!

The Z-19 looks like the designer liked a lot of what the Dolphin 2 brought to the table. The fenestron and horizontal stabilizer with winglets definitely look Dolphin-esque. Makes sense since China produces it under license.

(https://proxy.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=http%3A%2F%2F3.bp.blogspot.com%2F-sTjtq-V3S_E%2FUJaam3pzKkI%2FAAAAAAAATNw%2Fpg7eyjX_6MQ%2Fs1600%2FZ-19%2Battack%2Bhelicopter%2Bgunship%2BNew%2Bphotos%2Bimages%2BChinese%2BHAIC%2BW%2B%2BPeople%27s%2BLiberation%2BArmy%2B(PLA)%2Bexport%2Banti%2Btank%2Bmissile%2Barmor%2B%2Baff%2B(6)pakistan%2Barmy%2Bah-1missile%2B10.jpg&f=1)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Colt Ward on 07 August 2019, 21:01:19
The most interesting thing about the Z-10 to me is that Kamov co-designed it. When was the last time anyone's seen a conventional layout chopper from Kamov?!

So you are saying you expect it to transform?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: PsihoKekec on 08 August 2019, 00:38:02
Z-10 was designed by Russian Kamov bureau, if anything they might take inspiration from Mi-28, competitior to their Ka-50/52.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Fat Guy on 08 August 2019, 22:25:38
The Su-70 Okhotnik-B (Hunter) unmanned combat aerial vehicle made its maiden flight on Saturday, August 3rd.

(https://defense-update.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/okhotnik-B-taxi_1021.jpg)


Video:https://youtu.be/ZVpB_jwelOc (https://youtu.be/ZVpB_jwelOc)




Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 08 August 2019, 23:23:33
Man that exposed fixed landing gear is so gonna screw up the stealth profile.  Silly Russians.  :))

More seriously, that exhaust doesn't look terribly radar stealthy, in all honesty.  I wonder if they're going for a forward-aspect focus for something like a strike aircraft, rather than all-round.  (Or it's just not finished, and they slapped whatever zoom tube they had ready in it)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: nerd on 08 August 2019, 23:31:18
More seriously, that exhaust doesn't look terribly radar stealthy, in all honesty.  I wonder if they're going for a forward-aspect focus for something like a strike aircraft, rather than all-round.  (Or it's just not finished, and they slapped whatever zoom tube they had ready in it)
I'm guessing it could be both, especially as the Russians have yet to unveil a deployable low RCS platform at this time. It also depends on the intended tactical role. If it's a strike platform, then only a forward aspect reduction may be required.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 08 August 2019, 23:36:09
Well, your number one option for an unmanned aircraft is recon because of insane battlefield loiter time, but a solid second would be something in the opening-hours SEAD realm to minimize friendly casualties.  The latter would fit the forward-aspect-only; for a recon bird I'd want a little more so that my patrol loops don't leave my butt hanging out for all to see behind me.

I'm still betting on it getting a replacement engine or cowling or something in the future.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: dgorsman on 08 August 2019, 23:51:45
Yeah, I'm going with something slapped on to keep the relevant people asking "How stealthy is this going to be, exactly?".
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 09 August 2019, 00:01:03
I feel like that thing should have a Cobra symbol on it.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: PsihoKekec on 09 August 2019, 00:20:42
Man that exposed fixed landing gear is so gonna screw up the stealth profile.  Silly Russians.  :))

This is only the first flight of the first prototype, lot of stuff is still going to be changed through development process. For starters AL-31F is probably just a placeholder engine, just like on Su-57.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: chanman on 09 August 2019, 01:13:57
I doubt there's any stealth reason for the Z-10's shape. It's probably just done that way to provide more volume for stuff - batteries, fuel, armour, avionics, etc. etc. etc.

It's just designed-in instead of grafted on like on the later AH-64s
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: grimlock1 on 19 August 2019, 10:54:19
I doubt there's any stealth reason for the Z-10's shape. It's probably just done that way to provide more volume for stuff - batteries, fuel, armour, avionics, etc. etc. etc.

It's just designed-in instead of grafted on like on the later AH-64s

Cobras have plenty stuff growing on them too.  I helped restore an AH-1J for static display at China Lake NAWS and there happened to be a -W and a -Z in the hangar at the same time as the -J.  The -J was a sleek, sexy bird.  The -W was kinda lumpy, but the -Z looked like it had tumors!  There were bulgy bits everywhere.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: DoctorMonkey on 19 August 2019, 11:06:33
random-ish photo found on Wikipedia of the YB-17 in flight
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: chanman on 25 August 2019, 14:00:57
It's hard to fathom how fast aviation technology was progressing in the 30's (and also the 50's, but that's a different story). It makes PC improvements in the 90s look positively sedate. I'm going to compare aircraft from the same countries to illustrate:

Here's an Arado Ar 68. Like the He 51 and Bf 109 saw service in the Spanish Civil War. First flight: 1934. Service introduction: 1936
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3d/Bundesarchiv_Bild_146-1990-021-20%2C_Arado_Ar_68.jpg)

Here's a Bf 109 prototype. First flight: 1935. Service introduction: Feb, 1937
(https://media.iwm.org.uk/ciim5/531/619/mid_000000.jpg)

Here's a French Blériot-SPAD S.510. First flight: 1933. Service introduction: 1936 (only 61 made)
(https://www.avionslegendaires.net/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/Gs510-index.jpg)

And here's the much maligned Morane-Saulnier M.S.406. First flight: 1935. Service introduction: 1938
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/11/Morane_D-3801_J-143.jpg)

Here's the Polikarpov I-153 Chaika (an improved derivative of the I-15 that first flew in 1933) First flight: 1937. Service introduction: 1939
(https://c8.alamy.com/comp/ARBC22/polikarpov-i-153-biplane-russian-wwii-fighter-plane-ARBC22.jpg)

And here's one of the Mig-3. First flight: 1940. Service introduction: 1941
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/78/MiG-3_at_Mochishche.jpg/1280px-MiG-3_at_Mochishche.jpg)

The Gloster Gladiator. First flight: 1934. Service introduction: 1937
(https://www.shuttleworth.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/gladiator-header.jpg)

Hawker Hurricane. First flight: 1935. Service introduction: 1937
(https://www.flyinglegends.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/pic051-1024x682.jpg)

The Supermarine Spitfire. First Flight: 1936. Service introduction: 1938
(https://www.flyinglegends.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/Spitfire-1a-P7308-Pic-2-1024x628.jpg)

Fiat CR. 42 Falco. First flight: 1938. Service introduction: 1939. (In an interesting sideshow, Gladiators fought the CR. 42 in a number of secondary/tertiary theatres well into 1940/1941)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/916/41623439490_0e2136f657_k.jpg)

Macchi MC.200 Saetta. First flight: 1937. Service introduction: 1939
(https://media.defense.gov/2018/Aug/31/2001961028/-1/-1/0/180809-F-IO108-013.JPG)

Grumman F3F. First flight: 1935. Service introduction: 1936
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/65/Grumman_F3F-2_2-MF-3_%288031157586%29.jpg/1280px-Grumman_F3F-2_2-MF-3_%288031157586%29.jpg)

Curtiss Hawk 75. First flight: 1935. Service introduction: 1938
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/54/Hawk_75_No_82_side.jpg)

Nakajima A4N. First flight: 1934. Service introduction: 1936
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/58/95siki-kansen2.jpg)

Mitsubishi A6M Zero. First flight: 1939. Service introduction: 1940
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a7/A6M3_Zero_N712Z_1.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Kidd on 25 August 2019, 15:50:02
Manufacturer Name Model-number is such a cute way of naming things

practically made for collecting
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: truetanker on 29 August 2019, 20:00:05
What? Wait... How?

https://www.cnet.com/news/nasa-is-giving-away-a-free-apollo-era-saturn-rocket/ (https://www.cnet.com/news/nasa-is-giving-away-a-free-apollo-era-saturn-rocket/)

TT
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 29 August 2019, 21:17:42
Ain't that the one that's been on display since forever?  I swear there used to be one of the first stages (or a whole stack) that was never launched and tucked sideways into a display piece.  It had the same bracing as that photo.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Fat Guy on 30 August 2019, 14:14:06
B-2As and Brit F-35Bs over the White Cliffs of Dover.

(https://combataircraft.keypublishing.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/5/2019/08/38GpPO-OFFICIAL-20190829-191-283-1024x683.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: marauder648 on 06 September 2019, 05:03:48
I think this counts as aircraft as its USAF but it seems they are working on Mass drivers - https://imgur.com/gallery/5celEqL
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Colt Ward on 06 September 2019, 11:36:10
Mass Drivers suck, I prefer the Tachyon Cannon since it had the best damage to power use ratio and it was cheap enough I did not mind if it got damaged if I did not have a repair bot.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: chanman on 06 September 2019, 12:27:22
Mass Drivers suck, I prefer the Tachyon Cannon since it had the best damage to power use ratio and it was cheap enough I did not mind if it got damaged if I did not have a repair bot.

Oh man, it's been a while since I've played Wing Commander :Privateer
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Colt Ward on 06 September 2019, 13:52:30
It has releases out there that work on new Windows, I played a bit but had some crashes and forgot about it.  BUT . . . the game play and sandbox is still great, which says something about it holding up. . . over 20 years later?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: snewsom2997 on 06 September 2019, 14:18:14
Looks like someone is hand building a De Havilland Mosquito

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-7434723/World-War-II-bomber-Havilland-Mosquito-British-skies-2023.html

They are building it from the original 22,000 blue prints.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: beachhead1985 on 06 September 2019, 16:57:43
Looks like someone is hand building a De Havilland Mosquito

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-7434723/World-War-II-bomber-Havilland-Mosquito-British-skies-2023.html

They are building it from the original 22,000 blue prints.

Wow. Why not, eh? I mean; this was the whole point of a Mossie, right? Built from plywood.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: I am Belch II on 06 September 2019, 19:23:31
I got the honor of seeing one of the Mosquito at a airshow. Such a awesome plane, I hope they get it working.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: hoosierhick on 06 September 2019, 20:02:29
I got the honor of seeing one of the Mosquito at a airshow. Such a awesome plane, I hope they get it working.

Me too (seeing one at an airshow and hoping they get this new one finished and flying.)

(https://i.imgur.com/upXEjXt.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Dave Talley on 06 September 2019, 22:08:51
the one from Lewis is apparently in SA, need to take a look after
they get back
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Kidd on 08 September 2019, 15:30:44
How about some fast movers in camo

(https://i.postimg.cc/5tkHdCp0/0gke3auoo3l31.jpg)

(https://i.postimg.cc/yNNJbPmt/SvnoAYq.png)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Bren on 08 September 2019, 19:16:03
(https://i.imgur.com/r9exjzj.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: I am Belch II on 08 September 2019, 19:31:26
Dark Green Vipers F16s look so different
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: nerd on 08 September 2019, 19:39:09
The CT-144 Tutor, flying for the Snowbirds, with classics behind.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: glitterboy2098 on 08 September 2019, 22:06:16
Dark Green Vipers F16s look so different
those were the short lived "F/A-16" version.. making that pairing of images rather ironic.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: I am Belch II on 09 September 2019, 03:51:05
F/A-16......that makes true. Seeing how the plane does both now.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: glitterboy2098 on 09 September 2019, 05:34:16
Actually it refers to a specific variant configured primarily for ground attack, including a special 30mm gatling gunpod. It was meant to replace the A-10 but proved too expensive a refit (vs lantirn pods), the 30mm gun didn't workout, and the high altitude supersonic fighter proved pretty bad at low slow CAS
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Kidd on 09 September 2019, 05:48:43
Surely the -16 is pretty subsonic once loaded down with bombs and AIM-9s?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: HobbesHurlbut on 09 September 2019, 07:08:09
Surely the -16 is pretty subsonic once loaded down with bombs and AIM-9s?
"The A-10 has a cantilever low-wing monoplane wing with a wide chord.[32] The aircraft has superior maneuverability at low speeds and altitude because of its large wing area, low wing aspect ratio, and large ailerons. The wing also allows short takeoffs and landings, permitting operations from primitive forward airfields near front lines. The aircraft can loiter for extended periods and operate under 1,000-foot (300 m) ceilings with 1.5-mile (2.4 km) visibility. It typically flies at a relatively low speed of 300 knots (350 mph; 560 km/h), which makes it a better platform for the ground-attack role than fast fighter-bombers, which often have difficulty targeting small, slow-moving targets.[52]"
F-16 was designed as a high speed plane at high altitude, it can't loiter at low speed down on ground.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: beachhead1985 on 09 September 2019, 08:05:25
"The A-10 has a cantilever low-wing monoplane wing with a wide chord.[32] The aircraft has superior maneuverability at low speeds and altitude because of its large wing area, low wing aspect ratio, and large ailerons. The wing also allows short takeoffs and landings, permitting operations from primitive forward airfields near front lines. The aircraft can loiter for extended periods and operate under 1,000-foot (300 m) ceilings with 1.5-mile (2.4 km) visibility. It typically flies at a relatively low speed of 300 knots (350 mph; 560 km/h), which makes it a better platform for the ground-attack role than fast fighter-bombers, which often have difficulty targeting small, slow-moving targets.[52]"
F-16 was designed as a high speed plane at high altitude, it can't loiter at low speed down on ground.

I have the four Albums by this ANG duo called "Dos Gringos" (Love them!) and at least once an album, there is a song noting their lack of loiter time and fuel consumption.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: I am Belch II on 09 September 2019, 08:55:22
I have the four Albums by this ANG duo called "Dos Gringos" (Love them!) and at least once an album, there is a song noting their lack of loiter time and fuel consumption.

Dos Gringos is great! One of my fav bands.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: DaveMac on 09 September 2019, 09:06:57
Wow. Why not, eh? I mean; this was the whole point of a Mossie, right? Built from plywood.

Don't hold your breath waiting to see this one flying

They need to raise large amounts of cash
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: beachhead1985 on 09 September 2019, 18:15:07
Dos Gringos is great! One of my fav bands.

SO wishing they would release another album. So relatable, even for an ex-leg infantry guy.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: I am Belch II on 10 September 2019, 13:47:19
SO wishing they would release another album. So relatable, even for an ex-leg infantry guy.

Im didn't serve or fly in the Air Force , but being in Aviation it still works.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: JarheadEd on 10 September 2019, 21:28:14
the one from Lewis is apparently in SA, need to take a look after
they get back

Love those Mosquitos.

Here is the Mossie cockpit from the Fighter Factory in Pungo Virginia.

(https://i.imgur.com/akZxicW.jpg?1)

(https://i.imgur.com/zaK3kwb.jpg?1)

Giant resolution link  https://imgur.com/G9SvMJr
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: DaveMac on 11 September 2019, 01:56:10
Be wonderful if one of the airworthy mossies makes it to the UK

Last one we had was RR299 that crashed in 1996...

We do have HJ711 as a ground runner
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 16 September 2019, 14:23:38
Meanwhile, some Things That Never Were...but look surprisingly good.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 16 September 2019, 14:24:28
And an F-104X I suppose.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: worktroll on 16 September 2019, 14:37:16
The concept of a "stealth F-104" is ...  :o

Lovely aircraft - obviously it's mum Starfighter was very good friends with a Phantom ...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Garrand on 16 September 2019, 14:43:24
IIRC the F-104 was fairly "stealthy" by the standards of the time (engine buried deep in the fuselage IIRC), so the idea isn't quite so far fetched...

Damon.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: I am Belch II on 16 September 2019, 16:45:08
Stealthy F104 nice
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: chanman on 16 September 2019, 23:23:21
IIRC the F-104 was fairly "stealthy" by the standards of the time (engine buried deep in the fuselage IIRC), so the idea isn't quite so far fetched...

Damon.

Stealthy until a failed lawn dart roll, at least
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 16 September 2019, 23:47:31
Stealthy until a failed lawn dart roll, at least
If I can't pick the F-104's radar return out from the ground, it has successfully evaded my radar. 
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 17 September 2019, 00:54:34
At that point, however, it's forgotten the first trick to flying: throw yourself at the ground and miss.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Fat Guy on 17 September 2019, 07:37:21
It ain't the T-X no more.

(https://combataircraft.keypublishing.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/5/2019/09/image001.jpg)

It's now the T-7A Red Hawk.

In other news, Boeing is planning a light fighter version of it.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Colt Ward on 17 September 2019, 10:49:48
Stealthy until a failed lawn dart roll, at least

So you are saying whoever wrote the AT portion of the rules way back consulted a F-104 driver . . . and thus was born the lawn-dart rules.

What's the legs on that little fighter?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Cannonshop on 17 September 2019, 12:34:14
So you are saying whoever wrote the AT portion of the rules way back consulted a F-104 driver . . . and thus was born the lawn-dart rules.

What's the legs on that little fighter?

well, F-104 or early F-16 (Nicknamed through the seventies "Lawn Dart" due to issues with the flight computer's compensation ability vs the 16% in-built airframe instability  that also gives it that maneuverability.)

Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Ursus Maior on 17 September 2019, 14:40:36
The concept of a "stealth F-104" is ...  :o

Lovely aircraft - obviously it's mum Starfighter was very good friends with a Phantom ...
Gorgeous drawings. Although sticking external fuel tanks onto such a stealthy plane is...  :lol:
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 18 September 2019, 01:04:16
Gorgeous drawings. Although sticking external fuel tanks onto such a stealthy plane is...  :lol:

What's wrong with that?  We do it all the time.

(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/c9/31/90/c9319084ecbc5839ca724e88e373e430.jpg)

It's not like you're going to take those into ACM or ground strike efforts.  Even non-stealthy aircraft pickle the gas tanks if they're going into a fight simply because of the weight and aerodynamic drag alone.  Stealth jets obviously do the same thing.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: marauder648 on 18 September 2019, 05:49:24
Speaking of amazing looking but non-existant craft, its hard to beat the MiG-31 Firefox from the movie of the same name

(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/50/0d/4d/500d4d9a8d4a7e0eab5a718868375eeb.jpg)

and some AU fluff about the fighter

https://theaviationist.com/2017/12/01/the-story-of-the-mig-31-firefox-all-you-need-to-know-about-the-most-awesome-fictional-advanced-high-speed-interceptor-ever/
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Ursus Maior on 18 September 2019, 06:17:51
What's wrong with that?  We do it all the time.
True, I meant it sorta kills the flavour.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: dgorsman on 18 September 2019, 08:50:44
Speaking of amazing looking but non-existant craft, its hard to beat the MiG-31 Firefox from the movie of the same name

(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/50/0d/4d/500d4d9a8d4a7e0eab5a718868375eeb.jpg)

and some AU fluff about the fighter

https://theaviationist.com/2017/12/01/the-story-of-the-mig-31-firefox-all-you-need-to-know-about-the-most-awesome-fictional-advanced-high-speed-interceptor-ever/

It's the fan fiction love child of a MiG-25 and a YF-12.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: marauder648 on 18 September 2019, 09:11:35
It's the fan fiction love child of a MiG-25 and a YF-12.

You say that like its a bad thing :D Oh and throw some XB-71 in there too!
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: worktroll on 18 September 2019, 09:15:37
думай по русски!
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Colt Ward on 18 September 2019, 10:41:26
Speaking of amazing looking but non-existant craft, its hard to beat the MiG-31 Firefox from the movie of the same name

(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/50/0d/4d/500d4d9a8d4a7e0eab5a718868375eeb.jpg)

and some AU fluff about the fighter

https://theaviationist.com/2017/12/01/the-story-of-the-mig-31-firefox-all-you-need-to-know-about-the-most-awesome-fictional-advanced-high-speed-interceptor-ever/

Was the Night Raven a bit of homage to the Fire Fox?
(https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/gijoe/images/7/7a/Night_Raven.jpeg/revision/latest?cb=20161001162101)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 18 September 2019, 11:32:29
Some more WhIfs...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 18 September 2019, 11:34:05
And then there was that time a Raptor and a Super Hornet had a Super Night.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Istal_Devalis on 18 September 2019, 11:55:30
Was the Night Raven a bit of homage to the Fire Fox?
The movie version might be. The original...well it's pretty obvious where they got that one from.

(https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/original/3/34310/1204574-night_raven_1.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Garrand on 18 September 2019, 13:03:18
The movie version might be. The original...well it's pretty obvious where they got that one from.

(https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/original/3/34310/1204574-night_raven_1.jpg)

Looks like something that would be used by a snake-themed international terrorist organization...

Damon.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Colt Ward on 18 September 2019, 13:27:28
Sure the original Fire Fox was a riff on the SR-71 . . . but I do not think the Night Raven is too far off either . . . the engine placement is just inset on the Fox, the Night Raven even has the cockpit and cunards like the Fox.

Man, now i need to watch that movie again . . . might add it to my Christmas list.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: I am Belch II on 18 September 2019, 14:01:12
I always like the F/A-37s Talon's from the movie Stealth. Why do all these plane movies are really crappy??
I can't really name a good movie that involved and centered around a plane.

Here is the plane from SST Death Flight. A Concorde with 747 engines kinda designed off of the Lockheed L-2000 design.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Daryk on 18 September 2019, 17:35:15
Top Gun??  ???
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: truetanker on 18 September 2019, 19:20:05
No... Hot Shots, duh!

TT
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Fat Guy on 19 September 2019, 07:12:09
Top Gun??  ???

Had some beautiful aerial photography, but was otherwise a dreadful movie.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: chanman on 19 September 2019, 09:05:36
Had some beautiful aerial photography, but was otherwise a dreadful movie.

It would have helped if they didn't reuse the same few aerial shots over and over again.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: grimlock1 on 19 September 2019, 09:08:25
Some more WhIfs...
What was that a kit of?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 19 September 2019, 09:58:22
Not a kit, just someone's impression of a stealthy F-15J.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Kidd on 19 September 2019, 10:48:01
Had some beautiful aerial photography, but was otherwise a dreadful movie.
I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks so
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Colt Ward on 19 September 2019, 10:55:19
Which is sort of funny considering the cast . . .
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: I am Belch II on 19 September 2019, 12:26:22
Top Gun was one of the greater movies ruined with a crappy love story.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Ruger on 19 September 2019, 12:41:01
Top Gun was one of the greater movies ruined with a crappy love story.

To me, the title for that goes to Pearl Harbor, which was also let down by its very strategic use of cgi.

Ruger
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: worktroll on 19 September 2019, 14:16:22
And by it's failure to use CGI to cover up the modern frigates at Pearl.

The joke goes, the US & Japanese baseball teams were playing. Pride was on the line, and stakes were high.

The Japanese team said that if they lost, they'd apologise for Pearl Harbor.

The American team said that if they lost, they'd apologise for "Pearl Harbor".
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: I am Belch II on 19 September 2019, 14:25:51
To me, the title for that goes to Pearl Harbor, which was also let down by its very strategic use of cgi.

Ruger

THey got so many things wrong on Pearl Harbor that it was more than just the crappy love story.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Colt Ward on 19 September 2019, 14:45:15
But in Battleship they were playing soccer?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: HobbesHurlbut on 19 September 2019, 14:55:01
And by it's failure to use CGI to cover up the modern frigates at Pearl.
and the use of a modern USN carrier task group as stand in for the IJN striking fleet at Pearl Harbor.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Ruger on 19 September 2019, 15:30:58
And by it's failure to use CGI to cover up the modern frigates at Pearl.

The joke goes, the US & Japanese baseball teams were playing. Pride was on the line, and stakes were high.

The Japanese team said that if they lost, they'd apologise for Pearl Harbor.

The American team said that if they lost, they'd apologise for "Pearl Harbor".

That first one plus the most horribly cliched love story I had ever heard at the time makes Pearl Harbor the only movie I ever paid money to see that I came with a hair’s breadth of getting up and walking out of the theater on before the movie was done.

Ruger
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: hoosierhick on 19 September 2019, 16:00:33
and the use of a modern USN carrier task group as stand in for the IJN striking fleet at Pearl Harbor.

Wasn't there also a modern submarine leading the group in that shot?

And seeing how this is an aviation picture thread...a Curtiss P-36A Hawk diorama with a portrayal of Lt. Phillip Rasmussen on the morning of December 7th, 1941 in the World War II Gallery at the National Museum of the United States Air Force.

(https://i.imgur.com/KGIg2HD.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Daryk on 19 September 2019, 18:01:55
They wore pink flight suits back then??  ???
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: hoosierhick on 19 September 2019, 20:34:51
They wore pink flight suits back then??  ???

When they're flying in their pajamas, yeah.  ;)  They're actually red and white striped.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Daryk on 20 September 2019, 03:32:03
Ah, defeated by screen resolution...  ::)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Ursus Maior on 20 September 2019, 04:04:57
Digital photography and its problems with stripes.  >:D
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: hoosierhick on 20 September 2019, 07:35:10
It also didn't help that I scaled the pic way down before I posted it.  There's a stupidly huge version of it in the gallery here: [url]https://www.nationalmuseum.af.mil/Visit/Museum-Exhibits/Fact-Sheets/Display/Article/196316/curtiss-p-36a-hawk//[url] . It shows the stripes better.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: DaveMac on 20 September 2019, 07:51:26
Wasn't there also a modern submarine leading the group in that shot?

And seeing how this is an aviation picture thread...a Curtiss P-36A Hawk diorama with a portrayal of Lt. Phillip Rasmussen on the morning of December 7th, 1941 in the World War II Gallery at the National Museum of the United States Air Force.

(https://i.imgur.com/KGIg2HD.jpg)

First P-36A delivered to the USAF

https://www.nationalmuseum.af.mil/Visit/Museum-Exhibits/Fact-Sheets/Display/Article/196316/curtiss-p-36a-hawk/
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: hoosierhick on 20 September 2019, 12:36:40
Thanks DaveMac. I didn't think my link worked,  and I couldn't figure out why from my phone.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 20 September 2019, 12:59:08
Digital photography and its problems with stripes.  >:D
Moire camouflage!
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Daryk on 20 September 2019, 16:54:56
Thanks DaveMac. I didn't think my link worked,  and I couldn't figure out why from my phone.
It was just a missing "/" in the following url tag.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: hoosierhick on 20 September 2019, 17:00:11
It was just a missing "/" in the following url tag.

I figured something was missing.  Trying to copy and paste a link onto here with my fat fingers on my phone is a challenge.  Things tend to get messed up.

The Navy's MQ-25 UAV tanker prototype made it's first flight yesterday. https://www.businessinsider.com/navy-boeing-mq-25-carrier-refueling-drone-takes-first-flight-2019-9 (https://www.businessinsider.com/navy-boeing-mq-25-carrier-refueling-drone-takes-first-flight-2019-9)

(https://i.imgur.com/ZAP3ZCT.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Daryk on 20 September 2019, 17:05:02
That doesn't look like it can carry nearly enough gas...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 20 September 2019, 17:09:24
Looks a lot bigger here (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/10/Boeing_MQ-25_Stingray.JPG/1920px-Boeing_MQ-25_Stingray.JPG), the thing's supposed to be able to offload 15,000 pounds of gas in total.  Not huge, but enough for a flight of four perhaps, and a lot easier to operate off a flattop than a KC-135...  :))
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Kidd on 20 September 2019, 17:31:07
Looks a lot bigger here (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/10/Boeing_MQ-25_Stingray.JPG/1920px-Boeing_MQ-25_Stingray.JPG), the thing's supposed to be able to offload 15,000 pounds of gas in total.  Not huge, but enough for a flight of four perhaps, and a lot easier to operate off a flattop than a KC-135...  :))
That's like, what, four and a bit droptanks worth?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Daryk on 20 September 2019, 17:32:06
I'd have expected larger wings (where you can stuff a lot of gas) for a refueling tanker...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Fat Guy on 20 September 2019, 18:00:28
I expect it to use underwing tanks eventually. This is just the maiden flight.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Ghost0402 on 21 September 2019, 14:19:21
That doesn't look like it can carry nearly enough gas...
About the same as a KA-6D back in the day.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Kidd on 21 September 2019, 15:33:59
I don't do airshows, somebody tell me: is this sound unique in some way? is it how all WW2 aircraft sound like? or do all props sound basically like that?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c6c3v9iihgw
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Ghost0402 on 21 September 2019, 16:29:07
I don't do airshows, somebody tell me: is this sound unique in some way? is it how all WW2 aircraft sound like? or do all props sound basically like that?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c6c3v9iihgw
Only the Rolls Royce Merlin V12.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: CrossfirePilot on 21 September 2019, 16:33:24
Yeah that sound is commonly referred to as 100% pure lust.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Kidd on 21 September 2019, 16:38:39
I can agree with that!
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: CrossfirePilot on 21 September 2019, 16:44:33
Yeah, years ago when Harley tried to copywrite its sound, I think that Rolls Royce should have put a copywrite on the Merlin sound!

Packard Exec "Not only do we have to pay for the license to make Merlin engines we also have to pay for the copywrite on the sound they make every time one is used?!?!"
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 21 September 2019, 18:24:56
Yeah that sound is commonly referred to as 100% pure lust.
You mean this one.
https://youtu.be/IBUKiKvl29Q
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: DaveMac on 23 September 2019, 02:30:53
Thanks DaveMac. I didn't think my link worked,  and I couldn't figure out why from my phone.

Welcome matey  ;)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Ghost0402 on 23 September 2019, 06:32:46
You mean this one.
https://youtu.be/IBUKiKvl29Q
Shrouds over the gun ports cause the whistling, same as the Mustang.

Big fan of the Griffon powered Spitfires.  It's meatier sounding than a Merlin.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6QkO3GJ8D4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6QkO3GJ8D4)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: marauder648 on 23 September 2019, 08:57:30
Speaking of amazing sounds. Ya folks have heard the Vulcan howl right?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_ARSE8jEHQ
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: hoosierhick on 23 September 2019, 10:09:36
Shrouds over the gun ports cause the whistling, same as the Mustang.

I always thought it was the air whistling through the oil coolers in the wings on the Corsair?

I've been trying to find the video I took at the 2012 Doolittle Raiders reunion of 15 or so B-25s doing a flyover, but I guess I didn't upload it anywhere handy.  That many round engines in formation was pretty sweet,  too.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: HobbesHurlbut on 23 September 2019, 14:31:32
I always thought it was the air whistling through the oil coolers in the wings on the Corsair?

According to this: http://www.aviation-history.com/vought/f4u.html
"Under the right circumstances, the wing mounted air intakes caused a pronounced whistling sound. For that reason, Japanese ground troops called it "Whistling Death". "

(http://www.aviation-history.com/vought/corsaira.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: I am Belch II on 23 September 2019, 14:41:13
According to this: http://www.aviation-history.com/vought/f4u.html
"Under the right circumstances, the wing mounted air intakes caused a pronounced whistling sound. For that reason, Japanese ground troops called it "Whistling Death". "

(http://www.aviation-history.com/vought/corsaira.jpg)

It is a great sound from the Corsair.....if your on the good side. Heard it a couple of times at airshows.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Ghost0402 on 23 September 2019, 15:42:29
According to this: http://www.aviation-history.com/vought/f4u.html
"Under the right circumstances, the wing mounted air intakes caused a pronounced whistling sound. For that reason, Japanese ground troops called it "Whistling Death". "

(http://www.aviation-history.com/vought/corsaira.jpg)
I can't find a video, but it was a Mustang owner who blew air over the gun ports and produced the whistle.  If the ports aren't covered i think they Corsair does it too.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Daryk on 23 September 2019, 17:06:57
That Griffon engine sound is epic...  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Kidd on 23 September 2019, 17:59:07
I can hear now that the engine sounds of different WW2 fighters can be told apart.

Thing is, I first asked the question because that first Spitfire video sounded exactly like how nearly every generic WW2esque aircraft sound clip I've ever heard - e.g. in movies, animation, advertising, etc. It was instantly recognisable... and now I know, unique to the Merlin V12. Which is pretty cool.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: hoosierhick on 23 September 2019, 19:37:13
Speaking of amazing sounds. Ya folks have heard the Vulcan howl right?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_ARSE8jEHQ

That is cool.  I always wanted to see a Vulcan fly.

How about an F-104 howling?  The fun starts at around 2:30 into the video: https://youtu.be/vdDoKosn-88 (https://youtu.be/vdDoKosn-88)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: marauder648 on 24 September 2019, 15:47:50
That is cool.  I always wanted to see a Vulcan fly.

How about an F-104 howling?  The fun starts at around 2:30 into the video: https://youtu.be/vdDoKosn-88 (https://youtu.be/vdDoKosn-88)

Holy hell, that's howling! That bit at 5.11 sounds like some kinda werewolf howling. I do have to wonder if this was found to happen by accident and was kept in the design or is the pilot having to do something to make it do that?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: DaveMac on 25 September 2019, 02:36:18
My favourite Vulcan video

Beachy Head 2012

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UkWO5zVPz4g
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: I am Belch II on 25 September 2019, 11:21:07
My favourite Vulcan video

Beachy Head 2012

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UkWO5zVPz4g

That is a great video!
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 25 September 2019, 13:04:26
Every time I see that thing I keep thinking of Rodan. 
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 27 September 2019, 03:50:53
That blue....mesmerizing
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Colt Ward on 27 September 2019, 09:05:18
A very bright blue- surely not service color?  I thought they were a very dark blue.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 27 September 2019, 15:56:41
Usually, yeah.  Might be the camera and lighting or maybe someone's doing a stylized look, I just saw the pic and thought it was too pretty to pass up!
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Daryk on 27 September 2019, 16:58:02
It is pretty, but I agree with Colt... it looks a little too bright to be WWII accurate...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Weirdo on 27 September 2019, 18:53:26
What about postwar?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Colt Ward on 28 September 2019, 10:01:22
(http://media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/f1/68/3a/f1683a19dcd72f12c2e56584c0b9d06c.jpg)

(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/0c/22/51/0c2251d79329c6e410bd034d38ecb254.jpg)

IIRC, that dark blue was the Navy/USMC's camo of the time b/c it mixed the color of the ocean with some ground haze to make the planes harder to visually pick up at a distance.

This has to be colorized-
(https://forum.warthunder.com/uploads/monthly_2016_10/aa64908b12b68a9ea20d34a17c585422.jpg.2facca6aa8503f09365b8fe8844549c6.jpg)

Too big to post . . .
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f5/AU-1_Corsair_in_flight_1952.jpg (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f5/AU-1_Corsair_in_flight_1952.jpg)


And of course, one of the coolest . . .
(https://brickmaniatoys.files.wordpress.com/2016/08/2121-product-prime-1200.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: I am Belch II on 30 September 2019, 11:32:18
Love the Corsair. Such a neat awesome plane.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: PsihoKekec on 01 October 2019, 00:19:30
As long as you are not an ensign.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 02 October 2019, 04:12:57
I didn't realize how effective JP-8 was.  Or for that matter how standardized the boom connectors were...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 02 October 2019, 09:33:35
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/10052517/bradley-airport-crash-world-war-2-plane-building-multiple-people-injured/

Breaking news, no details yet.  Haven't heard which B-17 it was.  Hoping there's no fatalities in this one, but it sounds bad.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nine-O-Nine  Specifically, this one.  Still no word on anything other than 'injuries' which can cover a lot.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Sharpnel on 02 October 2019, 11:01:11
Atlast two dead so far as f the latest update.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: I am Belch II on 02 October 2019, 14:22:14
I didn't realize how effective JP-8 was.  Or for that matter how standardized the boom connectors were...


Im sure it was KC-135 refueling that X-Wing....it might take that long to replace them all.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: BairdEC on 02 October 2019, 14:25:10
That's a lot of X-wings, given that they were used "a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away."
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: hoosierhick on 02 October 2019, 14:45:08
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/10052517/bradley-airport-crash-world-war-2-plane-building-multiple-people-injured/

Breaking news, no details yet.  Haven't heard which B-17 it was.  Hoping there's no fatalities in this one, but it sounds bad.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nine-O-Nine  Specifically, this one.  Still no word on anything other than 'injuries' which can cover a lot.

13 on board,  5 fatalities last I heard.   :(
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Colt Ward on 02 October 2019, 15:00:30
Wow, Wikipedia already updated for today's crash.

Looks like she has suffered in the last few decades.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Sabelkatten on 02 October 2019, 15:53:41

Im sure it was KC-135 refueling that X-Wing....it might take that long to replace them all.
The old SW handbook describes the T-65's engines as some kind of jets, so... (The description is pretty much "sucks in vacuum, heats it up, throws it out the back" - and no, it still doesn't make sense! ;D )
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: beachhead1985 on 02 October 2019, 16:26:12
13 on board,  5 fatalities last I heard.   :(

Such a shame.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Colt Ward on 02 October 2019, 16:52:59
The old SW handbook describes the T-65's engines as some kind of jets, so... (The description is pretty much "sucks in vacuum, heats it up, throws it out the back" - and no, it still doesn't make sense! ;D )

Well . . . IIRC they were supposed to be scoops for interstellar medium . . . but who knows, they also had onboard fuel.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: CrossfirePilot on 02 October 2019, 18:46:12
Such a shame.

Especially considering the history of that B17.  No fatalities during WW2 and 160 missions.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Bedwyr on 02 October 2019, 18:48:41
Especially considering the history of that B17.  No fatalities during WW2 and 160 missions.

According to Wikipedia, it's actually a replica painted in the airplane's colors. The original was scrapped awhile ago.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: I am Belch II on 03 October 2019, 07:35:54
So very sad, one less B17 flying
RIP to the families  of the loss crew members.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: BlCharger on 03 October 2019, 07:42:21
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/10052517/bradley-airport-crash-world-war-2-plane-building-multiple-people-injured/

Breaking news, no details yet.  Haven't heard which B-17 it was.  Hoping there's no fatalities in this one, but it sounds bad.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nine-O-Nine  Specifically, this one.  Still no word on anything other than 'injuries' which can cover a lot.

I heard about this last night and hit me right in the heart. My cousin's younger son had his first ever flight in this plane.  :(
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: DaveMac on 03 October 2019, 08:53:01
Awful news...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: worktroll on 03 October 2019, 12:23:51
These planes were made over 70 years ago, and were intended to last a year or so before being shot down.

The love that the preservationists give the old warbirds is beautiful, but there has to be a time when the resources to keep these old planes safe exceed their capability. Not even money, but how do you check every component of a B-17 for corrosion, or incipient stress failures, without needing the equipment & budgets a major airline has for it's maintenance checks?

Sad to think.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 03 October 2019, 12:25:56
Even with professional rebuilds, and ignoring the Grandfather's Axe problem (considering Nine Oh Nine's history of replacements) there is always the risk.  Hell, that risk is general to everything that flies, you can have a seven decade old warbird or a seven week old airliner and things still happen.  That said.

...Can't help but think that your avatar's really on point in this situation, though.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Kidd on 03 October 2019, 13:50:56
Sad to hear about the deaths

Also, given this is 80 year old technology we're talking about, isn't there an inherently lower margin of safety all around for the things. Even if they aren't being pushed to the limits, so to speak.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 03 October 2019, 19:46:59
Bell just announced a new toy (http://news.bellflight.com/en-US/182601-versatile-lethal-sustainable-bell-announces-360-invictus-for-u-s-army-fara-competition) and she is a cutie.  Looks like they took some notes on the Comanche.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Daryk on 03 October 2019, 19:51:46
FOUR Hellfires and a gun?  Really?  ???
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Fat Guy on 03 October 2019, 21:08:53
Comanche had only 6 Hellfires and a 2 barreled Vulcan.

And like the Comanche, this is an armed scout. Not a full-up attack bird.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: glitterboy2098 on 03 October 2019, 21:22:16
i would not be surprised if they don't rig those winglets with an extra munitions hardpoint each for when stealth is less important than firepower.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: RABIDFOX50 on 03 October 2019, 21:40:55
Comanche had only 6 Hellfires and a 2 barreled Vulcan.

And like the Comanche, this is an armed scout. Not a full-up attack bird.

I would think a replacement for the Kiowa. Offensive capability with better recon, scout abilities thanks to Stealth.

Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 03 October 2019, 22:10:06
i would not be surprised if they don't rig those winglets with an extra munitions hardpoint each for when stealth is less important than firepower.
Box of donuts says they're wet plumbed for fuel tanks for extended range; burn off the tanks until you're in your contested patrol area, then pickle them and run internal fuel from there.  Probably also wired for attachment pods like fighters, like a Sniper ATP to designate targets. 

Kind of hilarious the FARA is back, since the Comanche was killed because recon was too dangerous and would be done with drones.  Whoops we changed our minds...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Cannonshop on 03 October 2019, 23:05:34
Box of donuts says they're wet plumbed for fuel tanks for extended range; burn off the tanks until you're in your contested patrol area, then pickle them and run internal fuel from there.  Probably also wired for attachment pods like fighters, like a Sniper ATP to designate targets. 

Kind of hilarious the FARA is back, since the Comanche was killed because recon was too dangerous and would be done with drones.  Whoops we changed our minds...

turned out Drones weren't advancing fast enough after all.  Kind of like other missteps in military aviation, like the infamous british White Paper of the 1950s that basically claimed fighters were made obsolete by Surface to Air Missiles, or the various times dedicated bombers were determined by 'experts' to be outmoded in the face of ballistic missiles.  (Note: we're still flying B-52s, a platform designed in the late 1940s). 
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 03 October 2019, 23:12:23
turned out Drones weren't advancing fast enough after all.  Kind of like other missteps in military aviation, like the infamous british White Paper of the 1950s that basically claimed fighters were made obsolete by Surface to Air Missiles, or the various times dedicated bombers were determined by 'experts' to be outmoded in the face of ballistic missiles.  (Note: we're still flying B-52s, a platform designed in the late 1940s). 
Have you heard?  Tanks are obsolete and useless now!
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Kidd on 04 October 2019, 00:16:37
What, no pusher rotor? What century is this from
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: beachhead1985 on 04 October 2019, 01:00:33
Have you heard?  Tanks are obsolete and useless now!

Somebody could clean up with a poster of all of these and sell hundreds of copies to militaries and defence contractors all over the world.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Daryk on 04 October 2019, 03:40:54
Now I'm wondering what drones don't do that this thing could.  Reapers are pretty scary...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Ursus Maior on 04 October 2019, 03:54:34
i would not be surprised if they don't rig those winglets with an extra munitions hardpoint each for when stealth is less important than firepower.
Wingtip Sidewinder-X, anyone? ;D
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Ursus Maior on 04 October 2019, 03:56:13
What, no pusher rotor? What century is this from
It has small wings, so the main rotor can push more than it needs to lift, because lift is taken care of.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Ursus Maior on 04 October 2019, 04:02:46
Now I'm wondering what drones don't do that this thing could.  Reapers are pretty scary...
They're also not very stealthy, don't have a lot to defend themselves with - starting with battlefield awareness, going over proper algorithms (i. e. "experience") and leaving at lacking EC(C)M - and can be hacked. In other words, the reaper is the O-1 Bird Dog of the 2010s. The FARA wants to be the survivor of the US Army's next near-peer warfare experience.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 04 October 2019, 06:11:06
Yeah, we've had enough problems with drones being taken over...something something rule 4 something RQ-170 something something...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Colt Ward on 04 October 2019, 09:13:45
Yeah, we've had enough problems with drones being taken over...something something rule 4 something RQ-170 something something...

We all know drones have a big problem being shot down by parachuting tanks.  The documenatry A-Team taught us that problem.
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_7ZObW1PlgPw/TBOPdmFdOlI/AAAAAAAAA2E/ut-I0W11SxQ/s1600/A-Tankfire.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: I am Belch II on 04 October 2019, 15:17:52
The shooting of the Drone was not the dumbest with the 50cal off the tank M8 which was to large to fit in the C130 but they out did themselfs when they shot down a drone with the 105mm gun.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Daryk on 04 October 2019, 15:18:58
EW/Cyber issues can happen to manned aircraft too, and honestly, anything relying on a ROTOR for lift isn't going to be very stealthy.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: hoosierhick on 04 October 2019, 15:32:57
The shooting of the Drone was not the dumbest with the 50cal off the tank M8 which was to large to fit in the C130 but they out did themselfs when they shot down a drone with the 105mm gun.

I thought the M8 with the basic armor package would fit in a C-130?

What about "flying" the tank with the 105?   ;D
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Luciora on 04 October 2019, 16:03:58
The shots had to land somewhere.  That's gotta be breaking some laws there too.  And some pretty explosive hail.

I thought the M8 with the basic armor package would fit in a C-130?

What about "flying" the tank with the 105?   ;D
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Colt Ward on 04 October 2019, 16:34:15
The shots had to land somewhere.  That's gotta be breaking some laws there too.  And some pretty explosive hail.

I made the wife watch some of season 1 A-team with me before the movie came out so she got a bit of the flavor.  She actually went to see it with me, and will turn it on for noise/casual watching at home . . . but she also rolls her eyes when I start chuckling during that scene.  I wish they would do another, I think the four actors did very well with their roles- the rant from BA in the falling tank was just on for me.

Didn't I see this in Farscape?
(https://www.avgeekery.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/18814869_1321540224590964_5553439918956824230_o.jpg)

Which is the one you keep hearing about make secret landings?
(http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2014/10/20/1413826088755_wps_2_FILE_In_this_Dec_3_2010_f.jpg)

(too big to fit right now)
Not sure this one is even real.

This is also a interesting photo . . .
(http://www.throttlextreme.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/Blackstar-spaceplane.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Daryk on 04 October 2019, 16:37:52
I'm not seeing a difference between those last two...  ???
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Colt Ward on 04 October 2019, 16:59:22
Now this was a interesting photo . . .

(http://static1.businessinsider.com/image/54c11a676bb3f76a449135d6-1200-1000/lockheed%20martin%20blackbird%20sr%2071%20x%20planes.jpg)


Did we finally get a real photo of the Aurora spy planes?  I know rumor/conjecture had drawings . . 

(http://media.gettyimages.com/photos/aurora-spy-plane-picture-id88045228)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Daryk on 04 October 2019, 17:13:00
Doubt it... both of those aircraft look like they're models...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: hoosierhick on 04 October 2019, 18:20:35
That B-70 pic is definitely of a model.  Neither of the two that were built were ever painted like that.  It's still cool, though.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Fat Guy on 04 October 2019, 22:09:03
Hey, 40 years before the Dream Chaser was the MiG 105 Lapot.

(https://www.argunners.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/Central-Air-Force-Museum-48-Mikoyan-Gurevich-MiG-105.jpg)

Looks like someone is copying the Russians for a change.  ;)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Colt Ward on 04 October 2019, 22:11:30
Interesting . . . form, function and all that . . . was it designed to return the pilots alive?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Fat Guy on 04 October 2019, 22:16:50
It didn't kill anyone.

And while it did fly, it also never made it into space.

They opted to develop the Buran instead.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Ursus Maior on 05 October 2019, 10:21:26
EW/Cyber issues can happen to manned aircraft too, and honestly, anything relying on a ROTOR for lift isn't going to be very stealthy.
It'll be stealthier with those stealth features as it would be without.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: I am Belch II on 05 October 2019, 11:43:46
A Russian Lifting Body..... Intresting.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: CrossfirePilot on 05 October 2019, 12:19:31
A Russian Lifting Body..... Intresting.

Pretty standard I think...

Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: hoosierhick on 05 October 2019, 19:23:42
Hey, 40 years before the Dream Chaser was the MiG 105 Lapot.

(https://www.argunners.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/Central-Air-Force-Museum-48-Mikoyan-Gurevich-MiG-105.jpg)

Looks like someone is copying the Russians for a change.  ;)

Looks more like it copied the HL-10, X-24A or SV-5D.   :thumbsup:

The MiG-105 is cool too.  I seem to remember seeing a pic of a scaled down test version of it getting fished out of the water somewhere after a suborbital (or maybe even orbital, I can't remember) flight.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Cannonshop on 05 October 2019, 20:57:36
EW/Cyber issues can happen to manned aircraft too, and honestly, anything relying on a ROTOR for lift isn't going to be very stealthy.

There are significant differences in what is penetrable.  A Drone has to maintain constant radio signal (until we find a better means of broadcast communication anyway), which is like an open door.  A manned aircraft can have the sensors spoofed, but still has a sensor package that isn't vulnerable to hacking, along with an onboard autonomous decision system that can go radio silent and still execute the mission (meaning that open door to the controls is firmly closed).  Further, there's the delay inherent in any long range commo to consider.

Basically, you can't remote-hack a pilot, but a Drone can be hacked, and with crypto, it's a constant arms-race between firewall/security protocols and breaking them, and there is no guarantee that the white-hats will always be ahead of the curve just because they happen to be ahead today.   Ask the Germans about that one, or the Japanese-both had systems they were absolutely mathematically sure were uncrackable by Allied cryptographers.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 05 October 2019, 21:00:00
Not to mention a drone is watching things on a screen, with the limited field of view that has, compared to the pilot's vision area and situational awareness.  Granted, you can zoom way in on a screen, but so can a pilot with an onboard TV system.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Daryk on 06 October 2019, 07:12:03
*snip*
Basically, you can't remote-hack a pilot, but a Drone can be hacked
*snip*
Defectors are proof that you can...  ^-^
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 06 October 2019, 14:36:48
Another pic of the Invictus chopper from Bell.  Confirms the weapon station option, at least, and makes her an interestingly nasty light-attack helo as well as a scout. 
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Daryk on 06 October 2019, 14:38:36
12 Hellfires (AND a gun) beats anything I've seen on a Reaper, so that could be worthwhile...  >:D
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Ursus Maior on 06 October 2019, 15:02:45
I wonder if there will be an option for a Mast-Mounted Sight (MMS) above the rotor system as with the OH-58D?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 06 October 2019, 15:24:02
I wonder if there will be an option for a Mast-Mounted Sight (MMS) above the rotor system as with the OH-58D?
I fully expect such a thing, either for something like the AH-64D's radar or the OH-58's mast.  Too useful and mature a technology to ignore, just not drawn in yet.  Maybe they'll come up with their own design rather than trying to adapt existing MMS, hence they don't have pics of what it'll look like.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Cannonshop on 06 October 2019, 16:24:06
Defectors are proof that you can...  ^-^

relying on defection is unreliable, whereas technology and math are pretty linear.  (Plus if you have that many defectors you've got an entirely different problem than how to fight an air war.)

While humans are the weakest link, one defector pilot may be an embarrassment, but one defecting computer programmer is a frelling catastrophe, since that compromises your ENTIRE force, while the defecting pilot compromises one piece of equipment, in one situation, that can be more easily corrected than, say, retrofitting all of your deployable air assets with new hardware to counter a programmer or engineer who switched sides for money, or was compromised from day one by ideology and a failure of your intelligence services to detect him.

It's a matter of how much damage a human element failure can cause, if you're bringing up the defector-a pilot who defects loses one piece of gear to your side, maybe compromises one operation.  a drone designer/programmer who defects compromises your entire operation-pick your risk.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Daryk on 06 October 2019, 17:12:27
It's certainly unreliable, but the human element can't be forgotten.  War is a human endeavor, after all.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: glitterboy2098 on 06 October 2019, 18:05:21
also, you can't manipulate someone into defecting in real time in the middle of a mission. with a drone that is the best time to hack its controlling signal and take it over.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: DaveMac on 07 October 2019, 03:19:26
turned out Drones weren't advancing fast enough after all.  Kind of like other missteps in military aviation, like the infamous british White Paper of the 1950s that basically claimed fighters were made obsolete by Surface to Air Missiles, or the various times dedicated bombers were determined by 'experts' to be outmoded in the face of ballistic missiles.  (Note: we're still flying B-52s, a platform designed in the late 1940s).

1957 White Paper on Defence was also heavily motivated by saving money as the UK was skint (food rationing in the UK only ended in 1954!)




Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: I am Belch II on 07 October 2019, 03:53:50
Another pic of the Invictus chopper from Bell.  Confirms the weapon station option, at least, and makes her an interestingly nasty light-attack helo as well as a scout.

I thought scout choppers were kinda killed because of Drones. One of the reasons of the cancel of the Comanche AH-66
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Kidd on 07 October 2019, 04:15:30
I'm quite sure that will be a thing. Already is for the AH-64E after all.

No, but really - no pusher prop? Wouldn't it be better to base off of this thing?

(https://www.defenceturkey.com/files/content/5c151033a5e5f.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 07 October 2019, 05:55:23
It's got a lot of Comanche in it; I imagine they just brought over the whole tail section from it and went with a simpler single-rotor main.  I wonder, can you run an MMS on a dual-rotor setup?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Cannonshop on 07 October 2019, 13:26:30
I thought scout choppers were kinda killed because of Drones. One of the reasons of the cancel of the Comanche AH-66

RAH-66 was mainly cancelled due to failing to actually achieve its stated mission requirements upon completion.  If the same procurement officers had been reviewing YF-35 at the time, it too would have been cancelled had the same criteria been applied (aka; fulfillment of the contract requirements at or below the contract's agreed upon cost in a timely manner.  RAH-66 failed to meet cost and failed to achieve design goals within the required timeframe.)  They didn't even HAVE a viable drone to replace it for almost a decade (hence the work into an upgraded OH-58 as a stopgap that didn't complete from the late 1990s to the early/mid 2000's.)

Basically the prime contractors promised more than they could deliver with the stealth packaging (say hello to physics, guys, specifically the physics of rotary wing configuration and materials requirements vis-a-vis strength, and hello to your accountant, because that stuff is EH-x-pen-siiive...), what killed it was projected cost overruns to get it from the prototype phase, to operational, vs. the cost/benefit for upkeep and maintenance.  (Stealth materials do NOT like field conditions. they like climate controlled hangars and gentle care.)

when the RAH-66 was cancelled, we had one viable recon drone in the pipe, and a lot of short-run experimentals and one-off prototypes.  Drones didn't kill Comanche, dollars killed it.  Particularly the dollars from the "Peace dividend" and reductions in military spending for R&D.  It couldn't compete with F-35 in the hearts and minds of the Joint Chiefs of Staff (who were enticed by the thought of spreading that program's development cost among a number of partner nations that were NOT interested in the choppers.)

but it was also killed by the failure of the prime contractors to deliver on-time and within-budget.  gotta remember, there was a LOT LESS tolerance pre- 9/11 for the historic practice of Pentagon Accounting with new weapons systems in light of the end of the cold war.  LOTS of programs got the axe for failing to deliver on-time and under-budget with full capability,a nd the limits of "Stealth" were already becoming obvious with the downing of an F-117 over the Balkans, a situation brought on because the Air Defense radars used by Serbia/Yugoslavia were about 30 years behind the times and weren't accounted for in the design as hey, they're obsolete.  (Thus demonstrating one of the limits of "Stealth" tech rather gruesomely.) Reduced RCS doesn't do a lot of good if you don't have the range, and have to fly home to a full-service fixed installation for a great many hours of service after every sortie, or have to be deep-cleaned frequently to prevent debris, dust and smoke from rendering your stealth materials worthless for reducing that RCS.  (choppers tend to fly low level, and get dirtier, faster, than high altitude supersonic jets, and flying at high altitude in a chopper negates most of the advantages in manueverability, observability and ability to actually support your ground troops.  if nothing else, a gunner using Mk-1 eyeball can do what a radar set can't at speeds where a rotor continues to provide lift without flipping the bird over. hence the continued presence of cannons in the SHORAD role in a great many inventories including soviet and soviet clients.)

basically it was a bad set of requirements and resulted in a weapon that failed the cost/benefit analysis.  one f those 'neat ideas' that fundamentally failed to pan out, but it wasn't drones that doomed it, drones just benefited from getting the funding that might have been allocated after the cancellation.


Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Colt Ward on 07 October 2019, 15:15:08
I'm quite sure that will be a thing. Already is for the AH-64E after all.

No, but really - no pusher prop? Wouldn't it be better to base off of this thing?

(https://www.defenceturkey.com/files/content/5c151033a5e5f.jpg)

Problem with a pusher prop and stealth is your stealthiest aspect (RCS) is usually nose on . . . now you are talking about putting a big disc behind your bird for nose on aspect, RCS gets really jacked up.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: HobbesHurlbut on 07 October 2019, 15:28:11
Problem with a pusher prop and stealth is your stealthiest aspect (RCS) is usually nose on . . . now you are talking about putting a big disc behind your bird for nose on aspect, RCS gets really jacked up.
What about NOTAR?
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/45/G-HAAT_%2835321548351%29.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Fat Guy on 07 October 2019, 16:13:26
Much less efficient than a conventional tail rotor.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 07 October 2019, 17:29:15
(Stealth materials do NOT like field conditions. they like climate controlled hangars and gentle care.)
I wish I had that picture of the F-22 from the demonstrator squadron that hasn't been maintaining its stealth capabilities (as it doesn't deploy for combat) that shows how much it abrades just from aerodynamic stress.

I'd heard that Bell says the design isn't intended to be seriously stealthy, mostly just aerodynamic, hence the internal bays - looking at it, it may have the overall hex shape and design of the Comanche, but it doesn't look like it's going with sawtoothing or flat panel work in critical spots - that gun turret is gonna stick out like a sore thumb.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 07 October 2019, 17:48:43
All this talk about the Comanche reminds me of the Attack Chopper LHX video game for the Sega Genesis.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Colt Ward on 08 October 2019, 09:18:37
If its supposed to be in the weeds, how much does it really need the stealth characteristics of the F-22?  Sure any little bit helps, but IIRC the MANPAD danger it would face is from thermal targeting and LOS gun systems like the old Zeus.  Stealth may help it in a WWIII situation where its in the weeds and trying to avoid enemy CAP attention, but that surely is not the primary threat its trying to defeat.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: dgorsman on 08 October 2019, 13:58:53
Maybe not full stealth, but low signature, as what the B1B is.

I wonder if the mission roles will include hunting other helicopters and low flying drones?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: glitterboy2098 on 08 October 2019, 14:44:43
radar is still used for general detection of flying vehicles, and in a lot of places you don't have terrain suited to "hiding in the weeds" (most of the middle east for example) so minimizing detectability is still a useful safety feature. especially since there has been a proliferation of radar guided lighter SAMs, particularly Semi-active types. low observable design lets the scout get closer to SAM protected targets, useful since the scouts are likely going to be the ones illuminating such targets for aircraft at stand off distances to hit with glide bombs or ground attack missiles.
 though you don't need RAM coatings in a lot of cases, just shaping the fuselage to scatter the signal and using composites in various areas you can't shape goes a long way. the sort of thing that the newer jet refits have been doing.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Cannonshop on 08 October 2019, 22:59:59
radar is still used for general detection of flying vehicles, and in a lot of places you don't have terrain suited to "hiding in the weeds" (most of the middle east for example) so minimizing detectability is still a useful safety feature. especially since there has been a proliferation of radar guided lighter SAMs, particularly Semi-active types. low observable design lets the scout get closer to SAM protected targets, useful since the scouts are likely going to be the ones illuminating such targets for aircraft at stand off distances to hit with glide bombs or ground attack missiles.
 though you don't need RAM coatings in a lot of cases, just shaping the fuselage to scatter the signal and using composites in various areas you can't shape goes a long way. the sort of thing that the newer jet refits have been doing.

Generally, those terrain types don't favor helo-borne operations in the first place.  Flat terrain doesn't NEED vertical take-off vehicles, 'down in the weeds' means using the reverse slopes of hills to take hull-down positions-line of sight, diggit?  Luftwaffe and RAF operations weren't center-stage in Africa and that was BEFORE portable radar.  Not all weapons work the same in all conditions. 
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: hoosierhick on 10 October 2019, 15:46:20
F-14 flying over Vietnam in 1975.

(https://i.imgur.com/mpslaGe.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: David CGB on 10 October 2019, 16:10:09
F-14 flying over Vietnam in 1975.

(https://i.imgur.com/mpslaGe.jpg)
great looking picture there
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: chanman on 10 October 2019, 20:37:13
F-14 flying over Vietnam in 1975.

(https://i.imgur.com/mpslaGe.jpg)

Huh. Didn't think they'd fly one over right at the end. Guess that explains Mickey's backstory in the Area 88 manga
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Colt Ward on 11 October 2019, 09:15:52
Ok, so here is a interesting question . . . the paint job on that F-14 is, I think, the one that inspired the GI Joe Skystriker's first incarnation.  Its the closest I remember seeing to the original stickers.

(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/564x/ee/d1/f4/eed1f472879b71281a400214c34cb8ba.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: beachhead1985 on 11 October 2019, 10:29:16
Huh. Didn't think they'd fly one over right at the end. Guess that explains Mickey's backstory in the Area 88 manga

Yup; last cruise of the conflict for Enterprise, i think it was. There were supposed to have been F-14s flying CAP for the helo flights out of Saigon at the end.

Related; I understood that all the F-14s have been chopped to keep Iran from getting any of the parts by destroying them? One of the guys at work told me they are thinking of bringing the Tomcat back for some reason? He said air-to-ground due to the advantages of the variable-geometry wings. But surely not at this stage?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 11 October 2019, 10:43:07
Not a chance that Tomcats are coming back.  The amount of work required in restoring any sort of production line for the wing boxes alone would effectively cost as much as bringing the whole airframe back into modern production; I highly doubt "zomg Iran would get parts!" is a serious danger so much as the inability to keep the fleet going in any useful number.  As far as chopped, there's still some intact F-14s in Tucson from a quick Google maps check.

That said, there's a LOT of titanium in an F-14's build, and that's a pretty valuable piece of metal.  It may be fatigue stressed and cracked, but that doesn't matter to an industrial forge...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: I am Belch II on 11 October 2019, 15:29:00
The F14 isn't coming back. The Navy is way to invested in the Super Hornets and F35s to put money to that plane.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Colt Ward on 11 October 2019, 15:38:50
Navy?  DoD is way too investing the F35 lemon.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: dgorsman on 11 October 2019, 16:14:08
I suspect the air-to-ground thing may have been the last gasp of the design, where the Navy was exploring possible other roles.  But it's nearly certain we'll see UCAVs before it comes back.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Daryk on 11 October 2019, 17:18:34
The US Navy wasn't the biggest user of Tomcats in the air-to-ground role.  They had other aircraft for that job when the Tomcat was flying.

And as much as no one will disagree with various assessments of the F-35, I think the mods have previously warned us away from that kind of talk as being too close to Rule 4.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 11 October 2019, 18:00:45
Wasn't the F-14 a Navy-only jet?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 11 October 2019, 18:08:28
Not to mention, the job of the Tomcat could be done by all the other fighters once AIM-120C came online, the (officially) 50-mile-plus range combined with a sudden lack of bomber swarms to shoot Phoenixes at pretty much doomed the need for the F-14.  And with AIM-120D's range capabilities matching the AIM-54, well...not much need for any of them.

Plus the fact that even the old F-18 can carry ten AMRAAMs compared to only six Phoenix missiles on the F-14, well...yeah.  The -14 was great for its time, but munitions advancements meant less-capable platforms could do even more.  And not having hundreds and hundreds of Backfires and Badgers to shoot at anymore...yeah.

Still one of the best looking and best sounding jets ever, though.

Wasn't the F-14 a Navy-only jet?
Yup.  Primary focus was fleet defense, though it ended up becoming a bomber in the early 2000s before it retired.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Daryk on 11 October 2019, 18:17:42
Except for the ones sold to another country...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 11 October 2019, 18:25:22
Which wouldn't really be a factor in how the US military used the jet, would it?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Daryk on 11 October 2019, 18:30:03
Which wasn't the original statement about how the F-14 was used...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Fat Guy on 11 October 2019, 20:01:07
It was also a hanger queen that was actually quite difficult to land on a carrier.

The expense Iran goes through to keep a handful airworthy is truly mind boggling.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Daryk on 11 October 2019, 20:06:17
It also says something about the state of their other aircraft...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Cannonshop on 11 October 2019, 22:38:40
I suspect the air-to-ground thing may have been the last gasp of the design, where the Navy was exploring possible other roles.  But it's nearly certain we'll see UCAVs before it comes back.

Not so sure about UCAVs.  They're a fun speculative exercise, but again, the same problem with UCAVs as with drones-you have a single point of failure that can turn your entire force either against you in any given theater, and it's easier than talking a pilot into defecting.  (Brbe the right engineer, and the enemy's UCAV force is now yours. not one or two units, but every unit along your theoretical front.)

HUGE strategic liability that. a Pilot might be a traitor, but he can only steal one airplane-an enemy force relying on UCAV tech has an entire major portion of their force than can belong to an enemy DURING combat operations.

and the risk of that goes UP as your UCAV force gets more sophisticated.  We're not likely to see a return of the F-14 for an entirely different reason.

simply put, variable-geometry wings are a solution to a problem that's been solved in less maintenance intensive, less fragile, and less expensive (over all) ways.  In a sense, it's a technology on par with piston engined combat aircraft, balloons, and zepplin bombers.

it was an advantage for about two decades, after which, the rest of aviation technology progressed past the point that swing-wings had real value as a solution to the short field/high speed question.  The F-14 was (at the time of retirement) grossly under-powered for the size, payload and range, and took up too many resources in the maintenance shop, since the system requires a LOT more maintenance to a given airframe, and has too many points of mechanical failure for what you get.  (a similar problem is coming with the Tornado, btw, which is a later-stage same generation airframe seeking to solve the same problems as F-14 and F-111.)

speaking of the Aardvark...
(https://nationalinterest.org/sites/default/files/styles/resize-1440/public/main_images/f-111.jpeg?itok=Odfz-Adp)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Ursus Maior on 12 October 2019, 10:30:21
I suspect the air-to-ground thing may have been the last gasp of the design, where the Navy was exploring possible other roles.  But it's nearly certain we'll see UCAVs before it comes back.
It's also a 50 year old design with absolutely no survivability over a UCAV on a modern battlefield, speaking in terms of radar signature and battlefield awareness, but a much higher price tag.

No, it won't come back. Before that happens, we will not only see UCAVs, but also buddy drones.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Cannonshop on 13 October 2019, 10:19:13
It's also a 50 year old design with absolutely no survivability over a UCAV on a modern battlefield, speaking in terms of radar signature and battlefield awareness, but a much higher price tag.

No, it won't come back. Before that happens, we will not only see UCAVs, but also buddy drones.

the age of the design doesn't matter that much.

See, the F-16 is almost as old, the F-15 IS as old (and has outlived its replacement-they're still building F-15, they aren't building new F-22s), the B-52 is a design that's old enough to join AARP and to have collected social security for a decade, (and thus far, has outlived two attempts at replacement), F-18 is in its forties now, and so on, and UCAV theorists still haven't addressed the central strategic flaw of the concept-that you have a single point of failure, that is achievable even with 1930s technology, that can put your whole fleet out of action or turn them on the user at a critical time-that is, they can be negated by a prepared enemy without matching the technological investment.

which is not true in the Tank/missile argument or other examples people trot out when defending the concept.

Further, we've GOT unmanned combat air vehicles-they're called "Cruise Missiles" and they're ammunition.  That's about the limit of what you can strategically rely on unmanned combat roles for-they're not going to be hijacked, they can be reprogrammed in the field quickly, and they're disposable (by design).  Note: they haven't outmoded strike aircraft yet.  (realistically, they haven't even outmoded bombers-they're just ammo for the bombers.)

But relative to "drone fighters" they're SIMPLE, robust, not reliant on external signals to do their job or adapt to situations, and they don't have to interface with other forces to coordinate their strikes or support units on the ground.  (means fewer points for a clever bastard or a white-collar traitor to interrupt control) and they're used in individual strikes, meaning that even if someone WERE to wrest control of one, it's only one, rather than the risk of having an entire formation's worth turning on the owner because someone thought "Password" was secure or the contractors put in a back-door for testing.

Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Kidd on 13 October 2019, 11:23:51
For all we know, somebody out there does have something that can suborn the whole Tomahawk missile fleet.

We do know, for example, that they're developing (or, very likely, have already developed) such hacks to take down enemy systems in the field.

It will become a game of hack and counter-hack, but that doesn't invalidate the drone concept entirely, because it's already that way with many weapon systems.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: dgorsman on 13 October 2019, 11:52:17
Any modern aircraft will be vulnerable to "hacking" the same way as UCAVs.  Pilots no longer pilot, they give suggestions to a flight computer.  UCAVs more of the same, not entirely reliant on full time communication.

And the idea of taking over control isn't necessary either; a compromised software engineer can end up grounding a fleet of drones, piloted aircraft, or UCAVs.  Or tanks.  Or ships.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Sabelkatten on 13 October 2019, 14:09:50
Arguable - yes, you can get someone to insert damaging code into, say, the F-35 flight control software. But I don't think it's going to be very easy to trigger that code in case of a conflict (unless it's set up for wireless updates. I REALLY hope that's not the case!).

UCAVs depend on communication with a controller. If you get to the right programmer you can get the codes needed, then you just wait until the drone comes flying.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Cannonshop on 13 October 2019, 14:22:27
Any modern aircraft will be vulnerable to "hacking" the same way as UCAVs.  Pilots no longer pilot, they give suggestions to a flight computer.  UCAVs more of the same, not entirely reliant on full time communication.

And the idea of taking over control isn't necessary either; a compromised software engineer can end up grounding a fleet of drones, piloted aircraft, or UCAVs.  Or tanks.  Or ships.
hah.

hahhahaahhahhahahahahhhahhahhahahhhhhahaha

You don't work in Aviation, do you?

haahahahahahahahaahahhahahahahhahahahhah

(Sobers) Um, no.

Mind that if you're talking the recent mess with the next Gen 737s, FAA mandated automated controls HAVE killed people (and demonstrated why those systems aren't ready for prime time, much less deployment with WEAPONS), but "Any modern aircraft" includes some airframes I've got hands-on experience with, and no, sorry, dead wrong there.  Even a fly by wire system is internally controlled, your hack has to happen inside the airframe.  Navigational aids and autopilots share the same relationship the tech for UCAV would require, that crystal radio sets share with the internet.



Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: marauder648 on 13 October 2019, 14:29:59
Moving away from Cruise missiles and drones

here's a collection aircraft pornography

https://imgur.com/gallery/DhkfqQV

And its quite the huge gallery.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Ursus Maior on 13 October 2019, 14:46:49
the age of the design doesn't matter that much.

See, the F-16 is almost as old, the F-15 IS as old (and has outlived its replacement-they're still building F-15, they aren't building new F-22s), the B-52 is a design that's old enough to join AARP and to have collected social security for a decade, (and thus far, has outlived two attempts at replacement), F-18 is in its forties now, and so on, and UCAV theorists still haven't addressed the central strategic flaw of the concept-that you have a single point of failure, that is achievable even with 1930s technology, that can put your whole fleet out of action or turn them on the user at a critical time-that is, they can be negated by a prepared enemy without matching the technological investment.
I beg to differ, I really do. The F-14 is a dead design that cannot do anything any of the planes you mentioned cannot do as well or better. Further, the F-15, F-16 and F-18 simply are no longer the planes they were 40 years ago: Every new variant offered today is a new production variant. It makes a very big difference, if you're talking about airframes or designs that are 30-50 years old: Newer frames last longer and they incorporate new technology as well, including applying stealth technology and techniques in construction. This is true for all three jets mentioned by you: CFTs, new air inlets, new construction materials for the wings or newer and better radar systems etc. All these things have been applied to the Teen-series fighters, none to the F-14. The last major upgrade to the F-14 was the D-model from 1991, the last minor upgrade was the integration of the ROVER III Full Motion Video (FMV) downlink conceived before 2005 (when it was installed). This is stone-age tech compared to Block 70/72 Vipers. And absolutely cannot compete with the changes made to the F-18 Hornet to make it the Super Hornet, which is basically a totally different plane.

And yes, they're building F-15 and not F-22, but that's wasn't a good military choice, but for fiscal reasons. The F-22 got axed during the peace dividend at a time when DoD officials thought near peer conflicts would no longer happen. That wasn't true and today F-15s are bought because they cost about the same as a F-35A to buy, but only 20,000 USD to fly per hour, where as the F-22A would cost 200+ million USD per unit for a restarted production of 194 new airframes, but no real upgrades. And by the way, we're again not talking F-15 from the 70s here: Every newly proposed F-15 variant today is not an improvement of the F-15C/D, but the F-15E Strike Eagle, a baseline model from 1985, not 1972. And again, each airframe is new.

So in short, the F-22 shows what an absurd idea it would be to restart the F-14, a much older and much less survivable aircraft that is simply outdated and offers nothing a newer planer cannot do as well. Where would be the niche for a re-build of F-14s? What would it supposed to be doing better than any F-15X/EX, F-16V or F-18E/F/G Block III, which all are already flying or will be within a timeframe that would be even remotely realistic for a reactivated Tomcat? And why would it be in any way feasible to sink billions into such a program, when the much better and survivable F-22 does not get a second chance?

Nothing, Tomcats cannot do anything today other planes cannot do better, faster and / or cheaper. And yes, that includes UCAVs, because, yes, UCAVs can be hacked, but that's not something that will happen to every UCAV automatically. That is especially true for loyal wingman UCAVs that would receive commands from extremely close by fighter jets (or bombers on theory) over highly secured direct link communication channels and otherwise are piloted by their ever increasingly apt AIs.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 13 October 2019, 14:58:25
Even a fly by wire system is internally controlled, your hack has to happen inside the airframe.

(https://ih0.redbubble.net/image.175665193.4068/mp,550x550,matte,ffffff,t.u2.jpg)

Challenge accepted.

Meanwhile, there's also the F-22's problem of the stealth coating being about as survivable as a velour carpet.  See previous images for what happens when it's not constantly reapplied; that alone is a big hurt on the -22's widespread use.  Having to consistently reapply an expensive coating to thousands of planes...not gonna work, when I can make aircraft that don't need it.  Save stealth for specialist units, rely on performance and countermeasures - especially with the significant improvements in IR tracking; you can hide a radar signature but you can't hide that exhaust heat.

Or you just build for maximum ugly.  Really surprised nobody's painted tusks coming out of the air intake on this thing; plenty with teeth but nothing quite like that.

(https://cdn.planespotters.net/photo/260000/original/mm6952-aeronautica-militare-italian-air-force-fiat-g-91y_PlanespottersNet_260314_62d3366a25.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: marauder648 on 13 October 2019, 15:06:31
Meanwhile the USN got this escapee from the set of Buck Rogers, the  Vought F7U Cutlass.

(https://i.imgur.com/2P3mxsS.jpg)

and its wingman

(https://i.imgur.com/EsPUWiT.jpg)

Vought F6U Pirate.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Daryk on 13 October 2019, 15:41:01
Heh... they DO look like Buck Rogers escapees...  :D
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Cannonshop on 13 October 2019, 18:54:30
I beg to differ, I really do. The F-14 is a dead design that cannot do anything any of the planes you mentioned cannot do as well or better. Further, the F-15, F-16 and F-18 simply are no longer the planes they were 40 years ago: Every new variant offered today is a new production variant. It makes a very big difference, if you're talking about airframes or designs that are 30-50 years old: Newer frames last longer and they incorporate new technology as well, including applying stealth technology and techniques in construction. This is true for all three jets mentioned by you: CFTs, new air inlets, new construction materials for the wings or newer and better radar systems etc. All these things have been applied to the Teen-series fighters, none to the F-14. The last major upgrade to the F-14 was the D-model from 1991, the last minor upgrade was the integration of the ROVER III Full Motion Video (FMV) downlink conceived before 2005 (when it was installed). This is stone-age tech compared to Block 70/72 Vipers. And absolutely cannot compete with the changes made to the F-18 Hornet to make it the Super Hornet, which is basically a totally different plane.

And yes, they're building F-15 and not F-22, but that's wasn't a good military choice, but for fiscal reasons. The F-22 got axed during the peace dividend at a time when DoD officials thought near peer conflicts would no longer happen. That wasn't true and today F-15s are bought because they cost about the same as a F-35A to buy, but only 20,000 USD to fly per hour, where as the F-22A would cost 200+ million USD per unit for a restarted production of 194 new airframes, but no real upgrades. And by the way, we're again not talking F-15 from the 70s here: Every newly proposed F-15 variant today is not an improvement of the F-15C/D, but the F-15E Strike Eagle, a baseline model from 1985, not 1972. And again, each airframe is new.

So in short, the F-22 shows what an absurd idea it would be to restart the F-14, a much older and much less survivable aircraft that is simply outdated and offers nothing a newer planer cannot do as well. Where would be the niche for a re-build of F-14s? What would it supposed to be doing better than any F-15X/EX, F-16V or F-18E/F/G Block III, which all are already flying or will be within a timeframe that would be even remotely realistic for a reactivated Tomcat? And why would it be in any way feasible to sink billions into such a program, when the much better and survivable F-22 does not get a second chance?

Nothing, Tomcats cannot do anything today other planes cannot do better, faster and / or cheaper. And yes, that includes UCAVs, because, yes, UCAVs can be hacked, but that's not something that will happen to every UCAV automatically. That is especially true for loyal wingman UCAVs that would receive commands from extremely close by fighter jets (or bombers on theory) over highly secured direct link communication channels and otherwise are piloted by their ever increasingly apt AIs.

I didn't say restarting F-14 production would be a good idea, only that relying on UCAV was a BAD idea...and that we're still running airframes decades past when their designers thought they would be replaced.

and I'll disagree vehemently on the F-15/F-22 argument.  see, part of a combat plane, is being able to run combat missions. consistently, without long stretches between them. aka "Uptime", as opposed to "Downtime" for expensive maintenance.  If your invulnerable super-plane can only fly one sortie in a week (or month), then your uptime makes its superiority negligible-because when you need it, it's in the maintenance shop instead of in the air.

needing 3 days worth of work after every flight is a pretty bad indicator, as is having a super-delicate exterior coating that, without which, you lose that 'unvulnerable super-plane-ness" means your down-time starts dipping into the "Unacceptable" range.

F-22 was cancelled because the uptime vs. logistics for maintaining it wasn't a very favorable ratio, while the F-15 was able to do all the 22 could in terms of missions, PLUS do additional mission types the 22 was not, and is not, suited to do, while having a lower down-time percentage between operational sorties.

F-14 had a dreadful downtime ratio, which is why as soon as the Navy could obtain something better, most of them went to the crusher.  Notably, this 'something better' is an upgrade of the F-18's basic design, not a navalised F-22 with it's hypercostly stealth coatings that require delicate handling.


Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 13 October 2019, 19:02:08
needing 3 days worth of work after every flight is a pretty bad indicator, as is having a super-delicate exterior coating that, without which, you lose that 'unvulnerable super-plane-ness" means your down-time starts dipping into the "Unacceptable" range.
I'll agree with you on the skin, as I mentioned above, but I'd say that supercruise, dogfight capability, some fantastic ELINT capability, and all kinds of dirty tricks with the radar system I've read about still give the F-22 some nice capabilities even without stealth.  Were we to put out a nonstealthy version of the aircraft, I'd love to see how it turns out - more focus on performance than invisibility.

I suppose this also damns the YF-23 which didn't have the agility of the F-22, but you can't have everything.  It still wins the "most evil looking" trophy between the two.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Cannonshop on 13 October 2019, 19:17:10
I'll agree with you on the skin, as I mentioned above, but I'd say that supercruise, dogfight capability, some fantastic ELINT capability, and all kinds of dirty tricks with the radar system I've read about still give the F-22 some nice capabilities even without stealth.  Were we to put out a nonstealthy version of the aircraft, I'd love to see how it turns out - more focus on performance than invisibility.

I suppose this also damns the YF-23 which didn't have the agility of the F-22, but you can't have everything.  It still wins the "most evil looking" trophy between the two.

The supercruise was something they were playing with using F-16XL, but it proved unnecessary and costly then, and quite apparently has proven to be so with F-22 (else they probably WOULD have done off with the coating and kept the line going for 'non-stealth' versions.)  maintenance down-time is a major issue, and MD proposed an update package on the F-15 to give it the supercruise and thrust-vectoring capability (dogfight), but it was refused because of F-35s cost-overrun laden, failure prone program (updating the 15 in such a manner would be one more nail in the coffin for lockheed's golden fleece.)

as has been stated before in this thread, 'Stealth' isn't as useful as performance, but it is certainly a terrific way to move taxpayer money into cayman island bank accounts.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 14 October 2019, 01:14:54
Meanwhile the DHC Caribou, showing off...again...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TSjV7DQqoBA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TSjV7DQqoBA)

The aviation "wheelbarrow" on something that's damn near able to land on a dollar bill and give change.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Ursus Maior on 14 October 2019, 03:20:33

Or you just build for maximum ugly.  Really surprised nobody's painted tusks coming out of the air intake on this thing; plenty with teeth but nothing quite like that.

(https://cdn.planespotters.net/photo/260000/original/mm6952-aeronautica-militare-italian-air-force-fiat-g-91y_PlanespottersNet_260314_62d3366a25.jpg)
Ah, the Gina, it sure wasn't a beauty, but she was well liked by her pilots here in Germany. Easy to fly and not complex, so maintenance wasn't a big issue. She could be flown from grass strips, her engine producing about 2 tons of thrust, quite a lot for a plane that only weighs 5.5 tons itself.

And of course there were "teethed" versions, I mean, come one, it's an obvious choice. :D

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/20/Fiat_g91_jaboG33.jpg/800px-Fiat_g91_jaboG33.jpg)

The Fiat G.91 was flown until the early 1980s in the Bundeswehr Luftwaffe of the FRG and well into the 1990s by the Portuguese and Italians. The Gina was replaced in Germany by another light attack plane, but this time a co-production with the French, this little bugger:

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e1/Alpha_Jet_der_Luftwaffe.jpg)

The Alpha Jet was an early victim of the peace dividend, now being flown by various African airforces, including the Nigerian, where its mainly used to combat Islamist forces, as well as Thailand and Qatar. France and Belgium still use over a hundred of them as jet trainers.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Kidd on 14 October 2019, 03:27:11
SHIELD uses it as well for light attack.

I'm sure theirs is very highly upgraded with Starktech
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Kidd on 14 October 2019, 07:34:51
The first British F-35s landed on HMS Queen Elizabeth

From 17 Sqdn, these are test-standard aircraft

Combat-coded aircraft will be joining from 617 Sqdn (yes, them) for Westlant 19 exercises

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EG1UkCNXYAEib-2.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Daryk on 14 October 2019, 08:05:55
They wear WHITE PANTS on the flight deck??  ???
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Weirdo on 14 October 2019, 08:06:55
... 617 Sqdn (yes, them) ...

Rectify some shameful ignorance, please? Who are they?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Kidd on 14 October 2019, 09:37:55
Rectify some shameful ignorance, please? Who are they?
aka the Dam Busters

(https://www.abroadintheyard.com/wp-content/uploads/German-survivors-of-the-Dambusters-Raid-remember-the-human-cost-70-years-on.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Weirdo on 14 October 2019, 09:53:26
Hojeez,...that might be a problem. Carrier landings are rarely gentle, can QE's deck handle that much history thumping down on her?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 14 October 2019, 11:39:16
Hojeez,...that might be a problem. Carrier landings are rarely gentle, can QE's deck handle that much history thumping down on her?
Apres moi, la facture de réparation.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: chanman on 14 October 2019, 12:53:15
I think some private training services contractors still use the Alpha Jets. Top Aces out of Quebec (formerly Discovery Air Defence Services) has 16 of them and 9 A-4s as well.

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/26/Top_Aces_Alpha_Jet_line_up_%283561708083%29.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 14 October 2019, 13:51:51
New photo of the Bell Invictus, from the AUSA 2019 floor show.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: marauder648 on 14 October 2019, 16:07:17
New photo of the Bell Invictus, from the AUSA 2019 floor show.

Getting a real Commanche vibe from that.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Colt Ward on 14 October 2019, 16:11:03
(http://api.ning.com/files/ENEiGOJ7eLRnJ38YYgIzwPgdZZZll6dpLQQGcNDd*UQS4tJqCrVOl98f7Bez6wIoUhhsFLxfypl3M0-C68Tm7MwjuKRU*xhV/airwolf09.jpg)

The best attack helo the Army never bought.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 14 October 2019, 16:15:11
Getting a real Commanche vibe from that.
It's pretty heavily based on the Comanche, though slicked down and unstealthed.  The wings are new, as is the nose gun and sensor pack, though it's still got the same tail section and internal weapons bay.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Daryk on 14 October 2019, 16:32:07
I really don't see the benefit of an internal weapons bay for anything with a rotor.  Radar only sees the giant disk.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: CrossfirePilot on 14 October 2019, 19:08:36
(http://api.ning.com/files/ENEiGOJ7eLRnJ38YYgIzwPgdZZZll6dpLQQGcNDd*UQS4tJqCrVOl98f7Bez6wIoUhhsFLxfypl3M0-C68Tm7MwjuKRU*xhV/airwolf09.jpg)

The best attack helo the Army never bought.

Thanks now I have that theme song in my head...thanks a lot...

and Ernest B saying "string"
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Daryk on 14 October 2019, 19:13:39
I hadn't thought of it until you mentioned it, but it DOES look a little like AirWolf...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 14 October 2019, 19:28:44
I really don't see the benefit of an internal weapons bay for anything with a rotor.  Radar only sees the giant disk.
Aerodynamics, less drag helps.  Mass doesn't change, but at least you're getting a slicker airframe.  She's a recon bird, so speed is important.  (You'd think they'd go with a pusher prop, but Bell's playing it conservative designwise compared to Sikorski)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: I am Belch II on 14 October 2019, 19:29:20
Thanks now I have that theme song in my head...thanks a lot...

and Ernest B saying "string"

I live on the flight line of a AirMed Helo that uses Bell 222s and when they fly over I say it's Airwolf.....some people get it ......most don't.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 14 October 2019, 19:42:32
That's actually what the heli used for Airwolf went to go do after they finished filming; sadly it crashed in 1992.

Also, Blue Thunder was cooler.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: CrossfirePilot on 14 October 2019, 20:01:56
I am still hoping to find where Airwolf is hidden whenever I travel through Monument Valley.

I'll probably find it parked next to a pallet of the first run secret edition Comstar Source book
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: David CGB on 14 October 2019, 20:05:07
I am still hoping to find where Airwolf is hidden whenever I travel through Monument Valley.

I'll probably find it parked next to a pallet of the first run secret edition Comstar Source book
I would take info on the first and one copy of the second if you would please.
if you find it!!!!!!!!
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: CrossfirePilot on 14 October 2019, 20:09:26
You have to remember, like BattleTech, Airwolf is the future of the 80s.  It was probably permanently grounded when they tried to upgrade to Windows 95...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Kidd on 14 October 2019, 20:34:01
I would take info on the first and one copy of the second if you would please.
if you find it!!!!!!!!
Comstar ROM: Stay right where you are.

You have to remember, like BattleTech, Airwolf is the future of the 80s.  It was probably permanently grounded when they tried to upgrade to Windows 95...
Comstar ROM: Yes, that is most certainly so.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Colt Ward on 14 October 2019, 22:49:53
I hadn't thought of it until you mentioned it, but it DOES look a little like AirWolf...

You know, I am trying to figure out if you are joking . . .
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Daryk on 15 October 2019, 03:33:28
It's been a LONG time since I saw that show...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Ruger on 15 October 2019, 03:45:38
It's been a LONG time since I saw that show...

I got the entire series on dvd a while back. Think Best Buy is still selling it.

Ruger
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: I am Belch II on 15 October 2019, 03:54:35
There was some good aerial shots of the flights. That was the awesome 80s where there was a awesome mode of transport as the main star. Airwolf, Knight Rider, Blue Thunder, and a couple of others.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Fat Guy on 15 October 2019, 07:37:44
It's been a LONG time since I saw that show...

But not long ENOUGH.   ;)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 15 October 2019, 10:47:26
Airwolf was the first action show I was allowed to watch as a kid.  I really enjoyed it, and I'd hate to mess it up by going back and watching it now.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Bedwyr on 15 October 2019, 10:50:20
Best not to unless you want to play a drinking game or laugh at it with friends.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: hoosierhick on 15 October 2019, 10:58:34
And whatever you do,  DON'T watch the 4th season!  xp
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Sharpnel on 15 October 2019, 11:39:46
And whatever you do,  DON'T watch the 4th season!  xp
AFAIK there is no 4th Season
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Colt Ward on 15 October 2019, 11:42:35
I watched one or two episodes for nostalgia same as Fall Guy, McGuyver & Knight Rider but was working my way back through A-Team.  I can watch them on several levels though- brainless entertainment, time-warp to 80s tech/mentality (Hello Commie bad guys), find the production hitches (recurring footage to run up the program length, A-Team had a lot of stock car stunts), and sort of to remember just how cool it was as a kid.  The McGuffin in some of those shows episodes do not hold up b/c of the science advancement of the last 25+ years . . .

 . . . holy crap, I just realized it is sort of like my father watching Star Trek OS when I was a kid.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: grimlock1 on 15 October 2019, 11:53:51
. . . holy crap, I just realized it is sort of like my father watching Star Trek OS when I was a kid.
Scary, huh?

if you squint and blur some of the cheesy bits, the music is well utilized in the action sequences.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 15 October 2019, 12:15:04
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g29eXR_nZc8

And now they can go head to head!   (Wrong one wins, though)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Bedwyr on 15 October 2019, 12:29:23
Scary, huh?

if you squint and blur some of the cheesy bits, the music is well utilized in the action sequences.

I'm there for the nostalgic intros and that's pretty much it. Well, the 80s shows that is. ST:TOS is amazing when it's good and awful when it's bad.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 15 October 2019, 15:14:38
Seriously, the Battroid/Gerwalk/Fighter levers are there somewhere...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Bedwyr on 15 October 2019, 15:23:33
F-35?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: hoosierhick on 15 October 2019, 15:51:39
F-35?

I don't think so.  There's a HUD, and I think the F-35 has that incorporated in the helmet mounted display.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Ghost0402 on 15 October 2019, 15:58:32
F-35?
Glass cockpit upgrade most likely.  The full monty package if you can afford it and probably several less extreme packages below it you could upgrade too as well.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Fat Guy on 15 October 2019, 16:33:31
That and the F-35 canopy hinges on the front.

Edit: Forgot to link a picture. How embarrassing.  :-[

(http://marvingroup.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/1-1.jpg)

Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Colt Ward on 15 October 2019, 16:37:49
Since he had been showing pictures of a VTOL, and it seems to be the same show I would say its the cockpit view of the Comanche replacement-ish he was showing off.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 15 October 2019, 16:46:45
Sorry, it's the cockpit from the new Korean prototype; they've got something F-22-looking that they're calling a 4.5gen aircraft instead of going all-up stealthy 5gen with it.  Meant to mention that, derp.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Ruger on 15 October 2019, 18:50:17
I'm there for the nostalgic intros and that's pretty much it. Well, the 80s shows that is. ST:TOS is amazing when it's good and awful when it's bad.

The best example of the latter to me is “Brain and Brain! What is BRAIN?!?!?”

Ugh.

 xp

Ruger
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: hoosierhick on 15 October 2019, 20:03:23
Sorry, it's the cockpit from the new Korean prototype; they've got something F-22-looking that they're calling a 4.5gen aircraft instead of going all-up stealthy 5gen with it.  Meant to mention that, derp.

Hey,  it's always fun to play "guess the cockpit."  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Bedwyr on 15 October 2019, 20:06:13
I should find another recce picture sometime.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 15 October 2019, 20:28:02
The best example of the latter to me is “Brain and Brain! What is BRAIN?!?!?”

Ugh.

 xp

Ruger

That was one of the flat-out worst episodes in the franchise.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Fat Guy on 15 October 2019, 20:48:51
Sorry, it's the cockpit from the new Korean prototype; they've got something F-22-looking that they're calling a 4.5gen aircraft instead of going all-up stealthy 5gen with it.  Meant to mention that, derp.

It's the KF-X:

(https://www.janes.com/images/assets/903/91903/p1750316_main.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 15 October 2019, 21:33:14
Interesting, no internal weapons bay.  They're skipping the stealth entirely and going pure performance.

That was one of the flat-out worst episodes in the franchise.
I'm just gonna say "look up Swear Trek's entirely NSFW version of that episode."
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Kidd on 15 October 2019, 21:52:23
The KFX is more about building a kind of domestic F15 rather than anything seriously low-observation.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: chanman on 15 October 2019, 22:56:18
Odd that they kept the reduced RCS canopy shaped (triangular) rather than bulging it out like on the F-16 to give the pilot more room and better downward visibility
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Kidd on 16 October 2019, 01:57:32
My guess is that every micron of RCS reduction they can get, they'll get, it all adds up. But not so far as expensive coatings and whatnot.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Bedwyr on 16 October 2019, 07:27:36
My guess too. It's like "why would you not want that extra half mile of radar penetration? Never know when it'll come in handy".
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Fat Guy on 16 October 2019, 07:28:13
The USAF has added a RAM coating to it's “Wild Weasel” F-16CMs.

(https://i0.wp.com/theaviationist.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/F-16-Have-Glass-Aggressors-2.jpg?fit=1200%2C801&ssl=1)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: grimlock1 on 16 October 2019, 07:48:55
My guess is that every micron of RCS reduction they can get, they'll get, it all adds up. But not so far as expensive coatings and whatnot.

It's interesting to look a the narrative of stealth tech.  The very earliest things I read in the '80s talked about shape and a bit of coatings.  Then in the late '80s, early '90s it became all about the coatings and composites, oh and the sawtooth.  Gotta have the sawtooth!  Then in the '00s it was almost all shape with a bit of coatings.  Now it seems like its more of a 50/50.

Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Kidd on 16 October 2019, 08:15:12
It's interesting to look a the narrative of stealth tech.  The very earliest things I read in the '80s talked about shape and a bit of coatings.  Then in the late '80s, early '90s it became all about the coatings and composites, oh and the sawtooth.  Gotta have the sawtooth!  Then in the '00s it was almost all shape with a bit of coatings.  Now it seems like its more of a 50/50.
Shape including the sawtooth, coatings, heat and electronic emissions... and that's all I know. I don't know nuts else, and I wont take any odds that these are the only items on the list...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 16 October 2019, 11:35:35
Some aspects of stealth are pretty easy - the sawtooth being one of them; you're basically doing everything you can to avoid a 90 degree angle - aka Perfect Reflector.  You're also trying to avoid circular shapes or large curved areas for similar reason.  Obviously it's not that hard to do, looking at aircraft design - and there's some benefits aerodynamically as well, as you're engineering loosely toward a lifting-body shape instead of a simple wingstubes.  Proof of that comes from the efforts put into warships; look at a modern Burke-class and all the simple little things done to minimize radar signature.  Trapezoid shapes all over the place (even on ladders and safety rails) to reflect radar emissions in other directions and force radar-guided ASM carriers to come closer into its engagement envelope before they can reliably shoot.  It's not for true invisibility, but it does make enemy jobs harder.

Once you start getting into the coatings, metamaterials, things like that, then you get into the crazy expensive stuff.  The physics are funky too, trapping radio-frequency energy and reradiating them as heat, for example.  But that does bring up the other problem, thermal suppression - and 40,000 pounds of thrust in a four foot wide can does not easily disappear...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: I am Belch II on 16 October 2019, 14:27:09
It's the KF-X:

(https://www.janes.com/images/assets/903/91903/p1750316_main.jpg)

Looks like the better parts of a F22 and parts of the F35 got together.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: glitterboy2098 on 16 October 2019, 14:32:40
The best example of the latter to me is “Brain and Brain! What is BRAIN?!?!?”

Ugh.

 xp

Ruger
That was one of the flat-out worst episodes in the franchise.
worse than infinite warp salamanders (https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Threshold_(episode))?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: grimlock1 on 16 October 2019, 15:14:07
Some aspects of stealth are pretty easy - the sawtooth being one of them; you're basically doing everything you can to avoid a 90 degree angle - aka Perfect Reflector.  You're also trying to avoid circular shapes or large curved areas for similar reason.  Obviously it's not that hard to do, looking at aircraft design - and there's some benefits aerodynamically as well, as you're engineering loosely toward a lifting-body shape instead of a simple wingstubes.  Proof of that comes from the efforts put into warships; look at a modern Burke-class and all the simple little things done to minimize radar signature.  Trapezoid shapes all over the place (even on ladders and safety rails) to reflect radar emissions in other directions and force radar-guided ASM carriers to come closer into its engagement envelope before they can reliably shoot.  It's not for true invisibility, but it does make enemy jobs harder.

Once you start getting into the coatings, metamaterials, things like that, then you get into the crazy expensive stuff.  The physics are funky too, trapping radio-frequency energy and reradiating them as heat, for example.  But that does bring up the other problem, thermal suppression - and 40,000 pounds of thrust in a four foot wide can does not easily disappear...
One thing about the saw tooth that always confused me is that it seems like a leading edge sawtooth is creating a 2D corner box effect.  Like the reflectors on the side of your car. So there would be a narrow angle, directly in front of the sawtooth where the return should be huge.    I'm guessing that there's something I'm overlooking.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: chanman on 16 October 2019, 16:39:02
Exhaust is important primarily from the rear hemisphere. Aerodynamic heating, however... I suspect a Blackbird at cruise had a thermal signature visible from over the horizon
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 16 October 2019, 17:06:39
That was one of the flat-out worst episodes in the franchise.

worse than infinite warp salamanders (https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Threshold_(episode))?

I said one of, not the absolute worst.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 16 October 2019, 20:00:53
One thing about the saw tooth that always confused me is that it seems like a leading edge sawtooth is creating a 2D corner box effect.  Like the reflectors on the side of your car. So there would be a narrow angle, directly in front of the sawtooth where the return should be huge.    I'm guessing that there's something I'm overlooking.
Only if it's a 90 degree angle.  A sawtooth for stealthing is going to be at, perhaps, a 50 or 55 degree angle - it won't bounce back to the original source.

Basically if you draw any angle onto a subject, it'll bounce off at the same angle opposite the perpendicular; with a 90 degree angle this means that your radar beam will bounce twice and come right back at the source.  Having differing angles in the sawtooth bounces radar in other directions, it doesn't matter too much between higher and lower than 45 degrees as long as it's a significant enough amount.  See case B and C for that; the decision about what angles to use will be much more dependent on other aspects of the aircraft.   Things like the angles made by the YF-23's wings, for example; they're all the same so that you only get a hard reflection in one direction instead of several (think of the front edge of each wing as a flat plane reflecting radar energy) and so you'd want to match that angle with your other little details.  That way you only get one "lucky" angle to be at to have significant detection capability, and the further that is from a nose-on aspect the better - it means the only people that have a chance to detect you are the ones farthest from your target.

Anyway, just showing angles here. Yes, they're all 90, above or below, but 45 degrees from what the surface would be.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Cache on 17 October 2019, 06:54:51
Third helo prototype revealed: https://www.janes.com/article/91969/ausa-2019-karem-aircraft-unveils-ar-40-for-us-army-s-fara-cp

Some very interesting controls on this one.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Fat Guy on 17 October 2019, 13:11:31
Sikorsky is basing their entry on their S-97 Raider.

(https://static.turbosquid.com/Preview/2019/05/09__00_55_27/SikorskyS97RaiderRigged3dsmodel001.jpgD9EE2DE6-D9B9-490B-B20B-A8E17495F312Default.jpg)

The proposed Raider X:

(https://destiracenter.files.wordpress.com/2019/10/sikorsky-introduces-raider-x-a-nextgen-light-attack-reconnaissance-helicopter-based-on-its-proven-x2-technology.jpg?w=624)

We'll be waiting on Boeing's entry 'till next year though.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 17 October 2019, 17:04:32
That X model looks like they're actually trying to push a stealth design, comparing it to the other model.  That might bite them...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: CrossfirePilot on 17 October 2019, 18:56:40
I don't have a pic to show for it.  But I got my Commercial Pilots License today.  Pretty happy about it, its been a monkey on my back for 4+ years.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Bedwyr on 17 October 2019, 19:06:41
Oh well done!
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Daryk on 17 October 2019, 19:52:33
Congrats Crossfire Pilot!  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Cannonshop on 17 October 2019, 21:52:39
I don't have a pic to show for it.  But I got my Commercial Pilots License today.  Pretty happy about it, its been a monkey on my back for 4+ years.
Well Done Indeed sir!
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Luciora on 17 October 2019, 21:57:08
That's no Rifleman.

Sikorsky is basing their entry on their S-97 Raider.

(https://static.turbosquid.com/Preview/2019/05/09__00_55_27/SikorskyS97RaiderRigged3dsmodel001.jpgD9EE2DE6-D9B9-490B-B20B-A8E17495F312Default.jpg)

The proposed Raider X:

(https://destiracenter.files.wordpress.com/2019/10/sikorsky-introduces-raider-x-a-nextgen-light-attack-reconnaissance-helicopter-based-on-its-proven-x2-technology.jpg?w=624)

We'll be waiting on Boeing's entry 'till next year though.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 17 October 2019, 22:12:22
Congrats on the license, CAVU!
That's no Rifleman.

(https://i.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/017/204/CaptainAmerica1_zps8c295f96.JPG)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 18 October 2019, 20:45:52
Someone got a couple photos of the Super Bugs being used for the Top Gun: Maverick film.  They have a damn pretty color scheme, I must say.

(https://i0.wp.com/theaviationist.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/Maverick_30_800.jpg?ssl=1)

Something about that near-black and bright blue over grey, plus the really nice stripe design that doesn't get crazy, really appeals to me.  Not so sure about the centerline tank, but the bird itself comes out nice.

(Yes, it's two different aircraft, the singleseater is used for flying footage while the twoseater is used for filming Maverick "alone" while a real pilot handles things in the other seat.)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: truetanker on 19 October 2019, 11:30:18
Totally hating you in a good way!  :thumbsup:

* Truetanker is jealous...

TT
 >:D
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 19 October 2019, 17:58:59
Oh it wasn't me taking those pictures, not one bit!  The source for them was apparently uploaded anonymously, so it might be someone on the crew; so far that's all we got.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Luciora on 20 October 2019, 14:43:48
If only.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Ruger on 20 October 2019, 15:35:34
If only.

You have no idea how many times that’s popped into my head every time I’ve seen those signs.

Ruger
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 20 October 2019, 15:40:12
I usually see an AH-64 used for that meme.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 20 October 2019, 21:38:07
Have a now-retired Mirage 2000N.

And a trailer for a film that came out in 2005, Les Chevaliers du Ciel (The Knights of the Sky) that's some downright gorgeous Mirage footage.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Daryk on 21 October 2019, 03:22:54
I don't see a trailer link...  ???
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 21 October 2019, 04:11:16
I don't see a trailer link...  ???
Derp.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HEe3xfWfkG8
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: wantec on 21 October 2019, 08:29:10
Hojeez,...that might be a problem. Carrier landings are rarely gentle, can QE's deck handle that much history thumping down on her?
Dunno about the structural integrity, but it's sure got the sqft for it
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Kidd on 21 October 2019, 08:34:15
Definitely, though that's CGI of course.

The QEs are built to comfortably accommodate 36 fighters and can surge more.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Colt Ward on 21 October 2019, 09:04:00
Its weird, some of it looks real and other areas look CGI- besides the pictures we saw earlier had her leaving in rain, lol.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Daryk on 21 October 2019, 15:11:22
Derp.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HEe3xfWfkG8

Sweet video!  Where was the desert range, though?  All the places that have Mirages AND deserts I can think of don't have cameramen up to that standard...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: glitterboy2098 on 21 October 2019, 16:03:43
Sweet video!  Where was the desert range, though?  All the places that have Mirages AND deserts I can think of don't have cameramen up to that standard...
according to the IMDB page, most of the filming takes place in france, with mention of a spot in england (site of a popular set of movie stages for rent), and Djibouti. the latter is probably where they filmed the desert scenes.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Daryk on 21 October 2019, 16:05:12
Dj makes perfect sense... thanks for the reminder!  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: I am Belch II on 21 October 2019, 16:12:28
The QE could carry up to 40 fighters with out any issues. Can work up to 50 or more in a really big crunch.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 22 October 2019, 03:06:59
There is a story behind this that I am very, very curious about.

If that's not just a demonstration sort of thing (suggested elsewhere) then this man will never buy beer for the rest of his life.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Daryk on 22 October 2019, 03:41:59
I'm sure those targets were destroyed on the ground...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: worktroll on 22 October 2019, 13:50:02
Remembering that Belgian F-16 ...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Cache on 22 October 2019, 13:52:29
There is a story behind this that I am very, very curious about.
I would guess Red Flag or similar exercises. Not a true kill, but bragging rights nonetheless.

edit: found info on reddit. veracity unknown. (https://www.reddit.com/r/MilitaryPorn/comments/b1ssh8/explain_those_2_outstanding_kill_marks_959x639/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Colt Ward on 22 October 2019, 14:08:39
Oh yeah, definitely bragging rights and a finger in the Fighter Mafia's eye . . . let you guess which finger they placed there . . .
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 22 October 2019, 15:03:41
I'm reminded of an anecdote from the Gulf War, where a pair of A-10s shot down several Hind helicopters at the same time an F-15E strike was taking out ground vehicles.  The A-10 squadron commander promptly offered to have his aircraft fly topcover for the F-15s anytime their CO needed, much to the amusement of the Hog pilots.  It's mentioned in Every Man A Tiger.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 22 October 2019, 15:29:51
Did they score those with missiles or guns?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Colt Ward on 22 October 2019, 16:22:18
LMAO, I would LOVE to see the gun camera footage of the A-10's 30mm RAC hitting a airborne Hind . . .

(http://imagesvc.timeincapp.com/v3/foundry/image/?q=70&w=1440&url=https%3A%2F%2Ftimedotcom.files.wordpress.com%2F2018%2F05%2Fa-10-1.jpg%3Fquality%3D85)

This guy took flying a Rattler to heart . . .
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 22 October 2019, 17:34:53
It existed somewhere, I don't see it on a cursory search of Youtube but I'm sure it's been traded around on VHS back in the day among the A-10 community and would be entirely unsurprised if it still is in private hands.  Considering what 30mm fire does to other targets one can only imagine it'd take a Hind apart like a chainsaw through butter.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: truetanker on 22 October 2019, 19:42:24
Would that be a preheated chainsaw thru room temperatured butter?

TT
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 22 October 2019, 20:03:48
Would that be a preheated chainsaw thru room temperatured butter?

TT
Nah, that just burns everything and you get a nasty smell.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 22 October 2019, 20:07:33
The Hind would hit the ground as metal confetti, I think.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Weirdo on 22 October 2019, 20:33:49
Would that be a preheated chainsaw thru room temperatured butter?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: hoosierhick on 22 October 2019, 20:34:50
LMAO, I would LOVE to see the gun camera footage of the A-10's 30mm RAC hitting a airborne Hind . . .

(http://imagesvc.timeincapp.com/v3/foundry/image/?q=70&w=1440&url=https%3A%2F%2Ftimedotcom.files.wordpress.com%2F2018%2F05%2Fa-10-1.jpg%3Fquality%3D85)

This guy took flying a Rattler to heart . . .

Ahem...Blacksnake, not Rattler.  ;) It's from the Air Guard squadron based at Ft Wayne, Indiana.  They have my second favorite A-10 nose art after the Flying Tigers shark mouth.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: truetanker on 22 October 2019, 20:43:54
Just replace (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/31dnTsAQdcL._SX425_.jpg)
with this (https://i.pinimg.com/originals/02/e5/56/02e5564b999c7d095b7c30cf29188c57.jpg)!

TT
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Colt Ward on 22 October 2019, 21:45:13
TT knew why I said Rattler . . .
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Kidd on 22 October 2019, 22:26:07

Mon canard est en feu!
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: PsihoKekec on 23 October 2019, 00:19:15
Damn, too late.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: hoosierhick on 23 October 2019, 07:41:50
TT knew why I said Rattler . . .

Yeah,  that thought hit me after I posted that other reply.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: I am Belch II on 23 October 2019, 13:50:23
The A-10 with VTOL, Manned Turret and a 3rd Engine. The Rattler was a pretty neat plane.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: CrossfirePilot on 23 October 2019, 18:14:27
Took this pic today.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: truetanker on 23 October 2019, 21:19:46
Can you see a V-22 Osprey armed with a 30 mm GAU-8 Avenger rotary cannon in the future?

I mean they have a GAU-19 Tri-barrel .50 cal. unit.

TT
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 23 October 2019, 21:44:28
I don't think I'd want to see an Osprey trying to fire a GAU-8.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Cache on 24 October 2019, 09:40:26
Well, they seem to be interested in a belly gun. Just a little smaller.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Kidd on 24 October 2019, 11:17:13
bout bloody time, really.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: DoctorMonkey on 24 October 2019, 11:30:22
Can you see a V-22 Osprey armed with a 30 mm GAU-8 Avenger rotary cannon in the future?

I mean they have a GAU-19 Tri-barrel .50 cal. unit.

TT


I'm not sure how much weight a V-22 would be able to lug around and there are more effective gunships while the V-22 would probably lose a lot of the useful load-lifting capacity


Better to have the right plane/helicopter/kit for the right job than a just-about-works option for all
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Colt Ward on 24 October 2019, 12:14:48
The Osprey has a gunship version . . .

 . . . a real gunship was abandoned by the Marines though the producers did test a version that armed up like a Apache with more pylons.

Apparently, they also have a tanker version . . .
(http://www.indiandefencereview.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/V-22_Osprey_aerial_refueling.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: nerd on 24 October 2019, 13:33:19
The Osprey has a gunship version . . .

 . . . a real gunship was abandoned by the Marines though the producers did test a version that armed up like a Apache with more pylons.

Apparently, they also have a tanker version . . .
(http://www.indiandefencereview.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/V-22_Osprey_aerial_refueling.jpg)
Interestingly, that Osprey has a civil N-number of the tail, not the expected Navy Department Bureau Number.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 24 October 2019, 13:38:36
Wasn't the Osprey originally slated to be a multi-role gunship/transport like the Hind until they figured out just how ineffective it was going to be once they added all the extra armor and guns?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Colt Ward on 24 October 2019, 14:40:25
From what I was reading, it went way over on cost to develop, cost per unit and maintenance costs were also bigger- to the point the squadron commander was relieved of duty for falsifying records and I think 3 people were prosecuted in relation.  Basically during development, it came down to . . . you can get a helo at a bit more than half the cost per unit of a Osprey, costs less for upkeep, so why not keep them in their primary role of people-mover . . . though they do have something like 40 with that 3 barrel rotary, and upgraded that gun system recently after deciding to forgo the gunship role.  Sometime like 2015 or 2016 Bell tested out a model using like I said a Apache style load out (big gun, Hellfires, rockets and other stuff) on pylons so it was a decent set of tests that made that decision.

I would assume the tanker version was another Bell testbed.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: DoctorMonkey on 24 October 2019, 14:51:46
From what I was reading, it went way over on cost to develop, cost per unit and maintenance costs were also bigger- to the point the squadron commander was relieved of duty for falsifying records and I think 3 people were prosecuted in relation.  Basically during development, it came down to . . . you can get a helo at a bit more than half the cost per unit of a Osprey, costs less for upkeep, so why not keep them in their primary role of people-mover . . . though they do have something like 40 with that 3 barrel rotary, and upgraded that gun system recently after deciding to forgo the gunship role.  Sometime like 2015 or 2016 Bell tested out a model using like I said a Apache style load out (big gun, Hellfires, rockets and other stuff) on pylons so it was a decent set of tests that made that decision.

I would assume the tanker version was another Bell testbed.


Tanker version might have sales to the RN and other users of F-35Bs from anything other than an American CATOBAR carrier (including the USN's USMC F-35B amphibious assault ships)


Gunship version just means the USMC gets less bang for their buck than an AH-1Z and something else for utility use
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Colt Ward on 24 October 2019, 14:55:50
Yeah, it basically said Ospreys do not go in without current gunship & fighter coverage anyway so it is not really needed.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Kidd on 24 October 2019, 15:15:29
Thing is, the Osprey is a good helicopter-aeroplane, not a good helicopter and not a good aeroplane. It's the old generalist-specialist story.

So if you want something that can pick up people like a helicopter and then move them somewhere really far really fast like an aeroplane, then the Osprey's your man.

But if you want something that can just pick up people, with great range and speed not a concern, the helicopter is more cost-effective. And if you want something that can go really far and really fast, and hovering and VTOL is not a concern, then the aeroplane is more cost-effective.

With regards to helicopter gunships, correct me if I'm wrong but their main advantage is in their small size - they are harder to hit, easier to conceal, and don't take up much hangar space or deck space. Ospreys aren't any of that, except for the deck space bit.

And fast jets have got the "flying really far really fast" end of combat air tied down. So again, no niche for Ospreys there.

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0a/USS_America_%28LHA-6%29_F-35B_loaded.jpg/1024px-USS_America_%28LHA-6%29_F-35B_loaded.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: grimlock1 on 24 October 2019, 15:36:49
Thing is, the Osprey is a good helicopter-aeroplane, not a good helicopter and not a good aeroplane. It's the old generalist-specialist story.

So if you want something that can pick up people like a helicopter and then move them somewhere really far really fast like an aeroplane, then the Osprey's your man.

But if you want something that can just pick up people, with great range and speed not a concern, the helicopter is more cost-effective. And if you want something that can go really far and really fast, and hovering and VTOL is not a concern, then the aeroplane is more cost-effective.

With regards to helicopter gunships, correct me if I'm wrong but their main advantage is in their small size - they are harder to hit, easier to conceal, and don't take up much hangar space or deck space. Ospreys aren't any of that, except for the deck space bit.

And fast jets have got the "flying really far really fast" end of combat air tied down. So again, no niche for Ospreys there.

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0a/USS_America_%28LHA-6%29_F-35B_loaded.jpg/1024px-USS_America_%28LHA-6%29_F-35B_loaded.jpg)
The as one old Navy mechanic described it, they took the UH-1B gunship, and put it on a diet.   

I suspect one of the biggest problems with creating an tilt-rotor gunship will be the location of the rotors in forward flight mode. There isn't a lot of space to put rockets to or missiles. The only way I can picture it is to belly mount the pylons.  While a gunship might not need such large rotors, it will also be a bit slimmer, so raise the dock, lower the water?  Of course a simple (triple redundant) safety interlock that prevents anything but the nose turret from firing unless the rotors are out of the way is possible.   But that would leave the aircraft unable to use its most potent weapons in a LOT of situations.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 24 October 2019, 17:27:57
Idle question.  Anyone got data on strengths of the German or French air force around the mid cold-war?  Like, troop numbers, aircraft count, airfields, that sort of thing.  Still slowly putting together that one project of mine.

Meanwhile, have a Alpha jet.
(http://www.airvectors.net/avalpha_1.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Fat Guy on 24 October 2019, 18:23:35
With regards to helicopter gunships, correct me if I'm wrong but their main advantage is in their small size - they are harder to hit, easier to conceal, and don't take up much hangar space or deck space.

Actually, the only reason helicopter gunships exist is that the Key West Agreement forbade the US Army from possessing armed fixed winged aircraft. Rotary winged aircraft is the loophole the Army used to get around that.

They proved so successful that other nations and services without such artificial restraints developed them as well.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: dgorsman on 24 October 2019, 18:39:59
Regarding clearances, there's a few small warhead systems available, including one that launches from the ramp of MC/AC-130 aircraft.  No reason they couldn't be used in a similar fashion with the Osprey.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Fat Guy on 24 October 2019, 18:57:06
The AGM-176 Griffin you're referring to is actually pretty whimpy. It was specifically designed as a very low-collateral damage weapon. Good against insurgents, but little else.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: dgorsman on 24 October 2019, 20:05:08
Yup.  But that's the level I would be expecting, certainly not up to one of the full AC-130 gunship configurations.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: I am Belch II on 25 October 2019, 16:05:55
Idle question.  Anyone got data on strengths of the German or French air force around the mid cold-war?  Like, troop numbers, aircraft count, airfields, that sort of thing.  Still slowly putting together that one project of mine.

Meanwhile, have a Alpha jet.
(http://www.airvectors.net/avalpha_1.jpg)

Always liked the Alpha Jet. Just a really neat little plane.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Kidd on 25 October 2019, 17:19:07
I just realised the Alpha Jet looks vaguely like the Su-25.

Is there any relation?

Idle question.  Anyone got data on strengths of the German or French air force around the mid cold-war?  Like, troop numbers, aircraft count, airfields, that sort of thing.  Still slowly putting together that one project of mine.

There is the Royal Air Force: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Structure_of_the_Royal_Air_Force_in_1989

Sorry, I know it's not what you asked for.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 25 October 2019, 18:51:15
I just realised the Alpha Jet looks vaguely like the Su-25.
Other than they're both twin engine attack jets, they're very different machines.  The Frogfoot's 17 feet wider with those wings, and weighs two and a half times what the Alpha does.  Ordnance-wise, the Frog's a lot closer to the A-10 - big 30mm (two-barrel) onboard cannon and nearly 10,000 pounds of stuff on the wings, while the Alpha's got an optional gun pack and that eats into its 5900 pound ordnance load. 
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Fat Guy on 26 October 2019, 14:38:11
I think it looks more like the Yak-130 / Aermacchi M-346 Master / Leonardo T-100 / whoever's making whatever they're calling it this week.

(https://cdn.jetphotos.com/full/4/44512_1333115512.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Ursus Maior on 26 October 2019, 16:02:44
I just realised the Alpha Jet looks vaguely like the Su-25.
No, not at all. The Alpha Jet was a trainer and light attack plane, and still is used as a trainer by the French and Belgian air forces. The Su-25 Frogfoot is, as has been mentioned, the pendent to the A-10 (although less efficient, I would argue). The Alpha Jet had the role to bring light attack capabilities to the front and it could be argued that it did what the Russians and Americans could do with attack helicopters in an age, when the continental NATO allies did not yet have such attack helicopters.

Design-wise it was a Franco-German co-production. No Frogfoot were hurt in the process.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: I am Belch II on 27 October 2019, 14:18:49
The Su-25 looks more like the A-9 concept plan that lost to the A-10 and the rest is history.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Daryk on 27 October 2019, 15:02:12
To make that comparison stick, you really need a picture of the Su-25 alongside that...  ^-^
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 27 October 2019, 15:09:25
Which would have carried a pair of Oerlikon KCA revolver cannon in 30x173mm, had the GAU/8 not worked out.

Alas poor Viggen, your time came too soon.

(http://oneinnovation.se/flygvapnet/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/AJ-37-Viggen.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Cache on 27 October 2019, 19:47:07
The Su-25 looks more like the A-9 concept plan that lost to the A-10 and the rest is history.
I've never seen the A-9. Nice. Russian aircraft looking like American aircraft... imagine that.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: truetanker on 27 October 2019, 19:53:41
There's one in Cali...

https://www.marchfield.org/aircraft/attack/ya-9a-northrop/ (https://www.marchfield.org/aircraft/attack/ya-9a-northrop/)

TT
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Colt Ward on 28 October 2019, 09:09:20
Well, its back on Earth instead of floating above it . . .

(https://media1.s-nbcnews.com/j/newscms/2019_35/2985366/190826-x-37b-space-plane-se-124p_47a6dae6be51dab4eacd8096dbb6ccc5.fit-760w.jpg)

Some of the conspiracy stuff on this bird is highly entertaining to read.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Daryk on 28 October 2019, 15:57:40
Which means the reality will be much LESS interesting to read...  ::)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Bedwyr on 28 October 2019, 16:13:51
Which means the reality will be much LESS interesting to read...  ::)

"We moved the spysat inclination two degrees with no onboard fuel waste. W00t!"
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Daryk on 28 October 2019, 16:32:49
LOL!  Stop reading over my shoulder!  ;D
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 28 October 2019, 16:40:09
"We moved the spysat inclination two degrees with no onboard fuel waste. W00t!"
"next mission will be to dock with and steal Elon Musk's car"
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Daryk on 28 October 2019, 16:51:15
WAY too sexy a mission for that thing...  ::)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 28 October 2019, 16:57:42
WAY too sexy a car for Elon Musk.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Daryk on 28 October 2019, 16:58:16
That too... that too...  ^-^
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Simon Landmine on 29 October 2019, 07:02:23
Is that ... a TIE-Fighter cockpit window ... on the lower nose?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Kidd on 29 October 2019, 07:16:01
Is that ... a TIE-Fighter cockpit window ... on the lower nose?
Emperor's Hand: "Stay right where you are."
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: I am Belch II on 29 October 2019, 11:34:44
Wow didnt notice that on the X-37. Nice
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Luciora on 29 October 2019, 11:48:40
The Alpha Jet always looked to me like a baby Harrier that hasn't gotten its VTOL yet.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Colt Ward on 29 October 2019, 12:13:14
Time for new thread
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Kidd on 29 October 2019, 13:45:31
Mig-28 thread then

(https://modelbrouwers.nl/media/cache/4d/32/4d320d8f24d25bcfa7c4b115edb675bf.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
Post by: Bedwyr on 29 October 2019, 13:46:29
New Thread: https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=67380.0