Author Topic: Simpler, Squishier Infantry  (Read 2466 times)

ColBosch

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Simpler, Squishier Infantry
« on: 09 April 2024, 20:09:38 »
I've been watching the thread on changes to infantry, and it's going in the complete opposite direction of what I'd like to see. I have always felt that non-battle armor infantry are the very bottom of the barrel when it comes to BattleTech units. Outside of exceptional circumstances, the role of infantry is to swarm and die. They're slow, have low damage output and range, and are hideously vulnerable to 'Mech-scale weapons. Their only advantage is that they're cheap, both to raise as units in-universe and in terms of game BV.

Bluntly, even giving them record sheets is affording BattleTech's PBI more dignity - and bookkeeping - than they deserve.

In these rules, all of an infantry unit's relevant stats are printed directly on a double-sided counter, like in classic wargaming. They only have four stats: Move, Range, Attack, and Defense. Some units have codes for special abilities. The "top" side of the counter represents the unit at full strength. The "bottom" side has reduced stats to represent the unit at roughly 50% strength. Nothing is tracked for infantry units; they do not have record sheets or cards.

MOVE: This is how many MP the unit can spend each turn, per the normal rules. This can have various suffixes, like "j" for jump or "w" for water movement types. "H" is a special case and stands for "Heavy." This indicates that the unit is move or fire.

RANGE: The range, in hexes, of the unit's primary weapons. Secondary weapons are mostly disregarded, but might grant a special ability. The suffix "i" indicates an indirect-fire capable weapon such as a mortar.

ATTACK: The damage value applied to enemy units on a hit. This is always applied in 5-point clusters, with two exceptions. The suffix "f" indicates heat-based weapons like infernos or flamers and uses the normal rules for such weapons. The suffix "/2" indicates that this is SRM-equipped infantry and damage is applied in 2-point clusters. Note that infernos are considered different from standard SRMs under these rules. Infantry units may not switch ammo types during a game. Note also that infantry never track ammunition.

DEFENSE: This is based on the Battlefield Support rules. When an infantry unit receives damage in a turn more than this number, roll a single D6. On a 1 or 2, flip the counter to the "bottom" side. If the bottom is already showing, remove the counter entirely; that unit has been destroyed. For every multiple of the Defense number in damage received in a turn, subtract 1 from the die roll (so at Defense 6, you get -1 at 12 damage, -2 at 18, etc.). Machine guns, flamers, and other anti-infantry weapons roll the appropriate dice for damage points instead of their flat values. Damage is not tracked from turn to turn beyond the counter flipping or being removed.

Defense values are fixed: D4 for no or light armor, D6 for standard infantry kit, and D8 for heavy armor or monsters like Tau Zombies. D8 can also be used for exoskeletions that grant no more than 1 point of 'Mech-scale armor; anything more than that needs the use of the battle armor record sheet.

SPECIAL ABILITIES: This is for stuff like Tau Zombies' C3, melee weapons (+50% damage to units in base contact), anti-infantry (roll each damage point as a D6 against other infantry), etc.

Note that, under these rules, two infantry creation options may not be taken: mechanized and field guns. Mechanized infantry are created as foot infantry and then have the appropriate transport vehicles bought separately. Field guns will require a complete rewrite, as subsuming them into these rules would perversely make them more powerful.

There's some more considerations I need to ponder, such as terrain and building effects, but this is the basics I've come up with.

Oh, and one final note: Do not debate between this, the standard rules, or the more-detailed infantry in the other thread. Each is for a different type of player and all are, I believe, valid interpretations of infantry in the game. There's no "best" option, only different opinions. Keep such arguments out of these threads. Thank you.
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Cannonshop

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Re: Simpler, Squishier Infantry
« Reply #1 on: 09 April 2024, 21:27:40 »
RANGE: wouldn't that be better accounted with the weapons that, y'know, are claimed to be supposed to make a mark on a 'mech or other armored platform?  (Those tend to be support, or 'secondary' weapons, not rifles.)

Same for damage.

The rest seems a bit too much complexity, based on your initial statement, you're still giving them too much real-estate in your head (which is a good argument for record sheets-you don't have to remember which is which on the mapboard if you have a record sheet...)

Having not spent time digging into BSP's, wouldn't that be a better option for simplifying infantry performance toward a more abstract/squish?
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Charistoph

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Re: Simpler, Squishier Infantry
« Reply #2 on: 09 April 2024, 21:54:11 »
I haven't seen the BSP Infantry in use, myself.  The Beta cards are crap for testing (really dark, so use a lot of ink/toner).

From reading the Beta rules, the biggest downside versus a normal Infantry unit is that they can't be used for Initiative scumming, as all BSP units have to be moved before anyone else.  Of course, that could be considered a GOOD thing by many.
« Last Edit: 09 April 2024, 23:51:04 by Charistoph »
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ColBosch

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Re: Simpler, Squishier Infantry
« Reply #3 on: 09 April 2024, 22:07:23 »
Yeah, I'll define primary and secondary better. I'm using them a bit differently than the standard rules. For now, consider primary to be whatever defines the unit's stats (which I need to figure out) and secondary to be everything else. For SRM infantry their primary weapons are the launchers, for artillery infantry it's their mortars, etc. Think BMR infantry with its premade platoons, not Total Warfare's more free-form units.

When you talk about "head real estate," I think you might've missed that all of these stats will be printed directly on the infantry counters.

Let's not get too much into BSPs; this is meant as an alternate to them. Those rules still require a card for record-keeping. My goal is no record-keeping: the infantry is either full-strength, half-strength, or removed from the map. My infantry can be used for initiative-scumming.
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Cannonshop

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Re: Simpler, Squishier Infantry
« Reply #4 on: 10 April 2024, 07:46:04 »
Yeah, I'll define primary and secondary better. I'm using them a bit differently than the standard rules. For now, consider primary to be whatever defines the unit's stats (which I need to figure out) and secondary to be everything else. For SRM infantry their primary weapons are the launchers, for artillery infantry it's their mortars, etc. Think BMR infantry with its premade platoons, not Total Warfare's more free-form units.

When you talk about "head real estate," I think you might've missed that all of these stats will be printed directly on the infantry counters.

Let's not get too much into BSPs; this is meant as an alternate to them. Those rules still require a card for record-keeping. My goal is no record-keeping: the infantry is either full-strength, half-strength, or removed from the map. My infantry can be used for initiative-scumming.

That almost sounds like you're trying to reinvent klikky-tech, since EVERYTHING's stats are on the actual counter/object/mini and it's pretty close to what you intend here, including "Initiative scumming".

so...are the differences that significant, and if so, why and how?

There's the athing with being able to use sheets-they let you use just about ANYTHING as a counter.  the micro-scale green army men, a penny with a stripe of paint pointing forward, random rocks, or expensive minis.

Having a 'counter' with all the stats (Type, damage level, etc.) means someone has to make it, then players have to buy it.

OTOH, I can make a stat sheet on a piece of paper, even scrap from the copy center or if I'm really feeling frisky, a 3x5 note card, all I need is to know the math and do it.
« Last Edit: 10 April 2024, 07:47:51 by Cannonshop »
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Charistoph

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Re: Simpler, Squishier Infantry
« Reply #5 on: 10 April 2024, 11:11:59 »
Realistically, and depending on the counter size, one could theoretically do similar with the BSP Infantry.  It just won't flip, and have a dry-erase point for the Threshold number, or flipping just reduces the Threshold.  As it is, most BSP ConvInf would probably fold just as readily in BSP as in TW.
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DevianID

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Re: Simpler, Squishier Infantry
« Reply #6 on: 10 April 2024, 16:45:45 »
I admit I do like BSP infantry, so I like these rules that are like BSP infantry.  I also like the token flipping for damage.

The finalized BSP rules in mercenaries isnt out, so I can only compare to tukayyid BSP.  We use BSP infantry a lot for campaign night.

The infantry taking multiple groups of damage will still need record keeping.  At the table I use d10s or scrap paper to track damage, cause it's needed for '39 v 40' damage.  For token flipping with no actual tracking, like in New epic, the stands instead should have a save.  2+, 3+, 5+ for heavy, normal, no armor.

Daemion

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Re: Simpler, Squishier Infantry
« Reply #7 on: 10 April 2024, 17:13:50 »
Infantry Pogs!

I was thinking of putting something like these together for fun.  While I enjoy the idea of more crunch for infantry, I've also been wanting something as simple as BattleDroids infantry for the situations where I don't need/want to track what's going on with any survivors once the main weapon is eliminated.
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ColBosch

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Re: Simpler, Squishier Infantry
« Reply #8 on: 10 April 2024, 17:56:51 »
*snip*

Thanks for the feedback. It has been discarded for being off-topic. Please review the last section of my original post, re: debating the merits of different rules sets, and not doing that.

Infantry Pogs!

I was thinking of putting something like these together for fun.  While I enjoy the idea of more crunch for infantry, I've also been wanting something as simple as BattleDroids infantry for the situations where I don't need/want to track what's going on with any survivors once the main weapon is eliminated.

They're just double-sided counters. They've been around forever. But I was thinking on how field guns would work; perhaps as a separate playing piece?
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Daemion

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Re: Simpler, Squishier Infantry
« Reply #9 on: 11 April 2024, 08:33:42 »
Yes.  Separate playing piece with its own token that can be individually targeted.  Because, field guns are big, static emplacements. 

Maybe you could consider putting them on a Battle Armor sheet, treating them that way.  Same could be suggested for the softer infantry transports used by Mechanized Infantry.

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Gorgon

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Re: Simpler, Squishier Infantry
« Reply #10 on: 11 April 2024, 10:31:19 »
This all seems straight forward enough. I got a couple of questions about Defense, though:
  • How is damage from 'heavy' weapons treated? Do (most) Mech-scale weapons have they damage divided by 10 or do they apply their full damage against infantry? (e.g. does a large laser do 1 or 8 damage?)
  • So all damage has to be tracked for the current round. Why? Why not make a roll to check for damage / destruction for each enemy unit that hits the infantry unit? Say, an infantry unit with D4 is attacked by a Stinger and a Locust during the same round. The Stinger deals 7 points of damage at the beginning of the turn (warranting a role to check for damage or destruction). By the end of the turn the Locust hits the infantry platoon again, dealing 12 points of damage, forcing another destruction check, this time with a -2 modifier. This would allow you to skip the in-turn record keeping. Especially during larger battles where a turn can take an hour, it could reduce book keeping and confusion
And on a more general note: How large do you imagine the counters (and the print on them) to be? Because while I really like the idea of having all necessary information on the counter, it has to be appropriately sized so all players can read it without the need to pick it up.
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Daemion

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Re: Simpler, Squishier Infantry
« Reply #11 on: 11 April 2024, 18:01:23 »
Well, you also want it to fit on a map inside the hexes, too.  And those are generally 1 & 1/4 inches, or 33mm.

That's usually big enough to read, but may require picking up.  If you're doing it on a table, then I'd recommend some custom bases with numbers on them associated with the appropriate token.

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ColBosch

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Re: Simpler, Squishier Infantry
« Reply #12 on: 11 April 2024, 20:58:16 »
This all seems straight forward enough. I got a couple of questions about Defense, though:
  • How is damage from 'heavy' weapons treated? Do (most) Mech-scale weapons have they damage divided by 10 or do they apply their full damage against infantry? (e.g. does a large laser do 1 or 8 damage?)
  • So all damage has to be tracked for the current round. Why? Why not make a roll to check for damage / destruction for each enemy unit that hits the infantry unit? Say, an infantry unit with D4 is attacked by a Stinger and a Locust during the same round. The Stinger deals 7 points of damage at the beginning of the turn (warranting a role to check for damage or destruction). By the end of the turn the Locust hits the infantry platoon again, dealing 12 points of damage, forcing another destruction check, this time with a -2 modifier. This would allow you to skip the in-turn record keeping. Especially during larger battles where a turn can take an hour, it could reduce book keeping and confusion
And on a more general note: How large do you imagine the counters (and the print on them) to be? Because while I really like the idea of having all necessary information on the counter, it has to be appropriately sized so all players can read it without the need to pick it up.

In order:
1. Not sure yet. This is probably something that would require playtesting.
2. That's a very good idea! When I do my second draft, I'll include that.
3. I'm thinking these counters would be about the same size as a map hex, so plenty large enough to read the numbers on all but the biggest set-ups. Ogre Designer's Edition uses similarly-sized counters with the same amount of info, and I've heard no complaints about reading those.

Well, you also want it to fit on a map inside the hexes, too.  And those are generally 1 & 1/4 inches, or 33mm.

That's usually big enough to read, but may require picking up.  If you're doing it on a table, then I'd recommend some custom bases with numbers on them associated with the appropriate token.

Or just put a die or finger on the map for a moment. Again, this kind of counter has been used in wargames for far longer than BattleTech has existed. BT-style record sheets are very much the exception, not the norm, for these games.

As for field guns, I'm thinking a slightly smaller counter with just range, attack, and *maybe* defense on it (or maybe all field guns will have the same defense, say D8). They'd be destroyed with a single good "penetrating" hit and would require an accompanying infantry unit to fire (replacing their normal attack) and move (move or fire, 1 MP for foot infantry or 2 MP for motorized while dragging a gun). But they'd be a cheap way to get a 'Mech-scale weapon on the field.
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Charistoph

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Re: Simpler, Squishier Infantry
« Reply #13 on: 12 April 2024, 00:50:24 »
3. I'm thinking these counters would be about the same size as a map hex, so plenty large enough to read the numbers on all but the biggest set-ups. Ogre Designer's Edition uses similarly-sized counters with the same amount of info, and I've heard no complaints about reading those.

One down-side to this is the Stacking rules.  You can have up to 4 of those tokens in a hex at a time.  Worse, you could have 2 tokens, a Mech, and a Vehicle in the same hex.

I've found the Battleforce Hexes and the Protomech bases, which measure 3/4"/20mm, good for stacking, but I can't say if they'd be good for such notations.
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Cannonshop

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Re: Simpler, Squishier Infantry
« Reply #14 on: 13 April 2024, 06:15:22 »
One down-side to this is the Stacking rules.  You can have up to 4 of those tokens in a hex at a time.  Worse, you could have 2 tokens, a Mech, and a Vehicle in the same hex.

I've found the Battleforce Hexes and the Protomech bases, which measure 3/4"/20mm, good for stacking, but I can't say if they'd be good for such notations.

Orient it vertically on the base to fit the stats with a "front" and 'rear' marker?
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ColBosch

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Re: Simpler, Squishier Infantry
« Reply #15 on: 13 April 2024, 12:08:00 »
Orient it vertically on the base to fit the stats with a "front" and 'rear' marker?

Hmm. This would take some graphic design trickery, but could work. It could be a nice compromise between my original vision of classic wargame-style counters and BattleTech's standees.
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Charistoph

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Re: Simpler, Squishier Infantry
« Reply #16 on: 13 April 2024, 12:45:53 »
Orient it vertically on the base to fit the stats with a "front" and 'rear' marker?

Ooh, and then we can get a 3D representation so it looks good on the battlefield...

It can quickly spin out to back where we started, if not careful.
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ColBosch

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Re: Simpler, Squishier Infantry
« Reply #17 on: 13 April 2024, 13:56:32 »
Ooh, and then we can get a 3D representation so it looks good on the battlefield...

It can quickly spin out to back where we started, if not careful.

Truth! But it's worth trying, to see if the information can be communicated effectively in a different format. I'll fire up Krita once it cools off here.
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Daemion

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Re: Simpler, Squishier Infantry
« Reply #18 on: 15 April 2024, 05:34:41 »
Well, here's a quick series of BMR stats infantry tokens at 1 and 1/4 inch.  I tried to set it up that you could print double-sided, but Google Docs has a strange 7.5 inch width layout, so I don't know how well that might actually center on an 8.5 inch page.

You can print out on card-stock and cut them out, and just fold them together if needed.

But, one thing about tokens/pogs and stacking is that, well, they stack. 

The blank spot at the top of each token is for ID labeling. 
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Daemion

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Re: Simpler, Squishier Infantry
« Reply #19 on: 15 April 2024, 05:36:24 »
And, the BMR Rifle unit to fill out.

I think I'll be coming up with a pure blank version so people can write in whatever they want, which is pending.

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Re: Simpler, Squishier Infantry
« Reply #20 on: 15 April 2024, 05:38:25 »
Oh. Special note:  It may be hard to see, but the PB, or Point Blank, for Flamers and SRMs has a very tiny -1 next to it.  BMR stats has PB being a -2 for most weapons with those two being the exception.  And, PB is usually inside the same hex, or range 0.

A blank range value like Long means they don't work in that range bracket.
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Gorgon

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Re: Simpler, Squishier Infantry
« Reply #21 on: 15 April 2024, 06:41:00 »
I like these, I would use them. Have you tried a layout without 'Ranges', just PB, St,  Md, Lg ? It may give you enough room to make the -1 more legible.
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Charistoph

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Re: Simpler, Squishier Infantry
« Reply #22 on: 15 April 2024, 10:29:31 »
Well, here's a quick series of BMR stats infantry tokens at 1 and 1/4 inch.  I tried to set it up that you could print double-sided, but Google Docs has a strange 7.5 inch width layout, so I don't know how well that might actually center on an 8.5 inch page.

It has to do with most printers requiring that 1/2" for rollers and such.  One of those "one size fits all" things.

But, one thing about tokens/pogs and stacking is that, well, they stack. 

Stacking on top of each other could make it easy to forget who is in that hex, thus the concern.
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Daemion

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Re: Simpler, Squishier Infantry
« Reply #23 on: 15 April 2024, 15:09:47 »
I like these, I would use them. Have you tried a layout without 'Ranges', just PB, St,  Md, Lg ? It may give you enough room to make the -1 more legible.

That could be a possibility. It was a lot of work to put these together, so I'm not quite ready to consider making alterations. But, I may.
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Re: Simpler, Squishier Infantry
« Reply #24 on: 23 April 2024, 13:07:25 »
I like these, I would use them. Have you tried a layout without 'Ranges', just PB, St,  Md, Lg ? It may give you enough room to make the -1 more legible.

I think I can make the suggested changes this weekend.  I'll get 'em up when I'm done.
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Re: Simpler, Squishier Infantry
« Reply #25 on: 25 April 2024, 15:42:52 »
Here you go. Much more legible. 
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Re: Simpler, Squishier Infantry
« Reply #26 on: 25 April 2024, 15:43:29 »
And the Rifle unit.

Have fun.  Enjoy.
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Re: Simpler, Squishier Infantry
« Reply #27 on: 26 April 2024, 08:57:28 »
Those are great, thank you!
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General308

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Re: Simpler, Squishier Infantry
« Reply #28 on: 26 August 2024, 11:49:21 »
That almost sounds like you're trying to reinvent klikky-tech, since EVERYTHING's stats are on the actual counter/object/mini and it's pretty close to what you intend here, including "Initiative scumming".

so...are the differences that significant, and if so, why and how?

There's the athing with being able to use sheets-they let you use just about ANYTHING as a counter.  the micro-scale green army men, a penny with a stripe of paint pointing forward, random rocks, or expensive minis.

Having a 'counter' with all the stats (Type, damage level, etc.) means someone has to make it, then players have to buy it.

OTOH, I can make a stat sheet on a piece of paper, even scrap from the copy center or if I'm really feeling frisky, a 3x5 note card, all I need is to know the math and do it.

In fairness the clicky dial wasn't the problem with clickytech.  The less than good rules were in my opinion.  The dial was in the end I think the one part I liked about that game when I finally took a look at it.

DevianID

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  • Posts: 2019
Re: Simpler, Squishier Infantry
« Reply #29 on: 27 August 2024, 00:01:19 »
In fairness the clicky dial wasn't the problem with clickytech.  The less than good rules were in my opinion.  The dial was in the end I think the one part I liked about that game when I finally took a look at it.

I had a talk about the dial recently.  The alpha strike random crit table and the dial are pretty much the same thing, its just the dial had the crits pre rolled for you... which, let me tell you after playing alpha strike with 20+ units on my side, I would LOVE to have a simplified crit system.  Managing which units were engine crit and which were normal in my 25 units was a huge pain in the butt, I would much rather have the dial with move/damage/TMM right visible on each unit then the current setup with a TMM die, and the other important information on a card in a sea of 25 cards.  With the dial, seeing which units are damaged (among the 25) is a lot easier then my opponent asking 'which one has damage?' every 3rd turn, as the units get shuffled in the movement phases.

The 'flip the card to the other side' or 'flip the token to the other side' is used in lots of other games, I assume for the reason I just ran into with random crit rolls on a large number of units on the table.  I would much rather reduce the book keeping on these units... its different when you have 4 units versus 25 units, at 25 units I dont want to manage which unit has an engine hit versus which unit has a sensor hit.  Flipping an infantry token over when they get hit/lose their support weapon is a nice, simple way to manage them.
« Last Edit: 27 August 2024, 00:06:16 by DevianID »

 

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