Author Topic: Design challenge: Neutrino stealthy battlemech  (Read 361 times)

Liam's Ghost

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Design challenge: Neutrino stealthy battlemech
« on: 13 September 2024, 20:53:58 »
Situation: It is the middle of the Clan Invasion, you are a design engineer for the Great House of your choosing, and someone in your government is in a Tizzy.

It turns out he just discovered that the Clans have this technology called a "Neutrino Detector", and, why dagnabit it's so wondrous that it can spot any active fusion plant from the other side of a system, so accurately that it can even determine the make and model of the mech using it!

The Clans could be watching us from out in the black at this very moment, seeing all of our weaknesses, possibly even our internet history and credit report!

What's worse, the fancy Neutrino blocking RAM blankets that a rival company has been supplying to the government don't actually work!.

So you have been tasked with building a battlemech able to defeat this Clan Magic. The rules are this: you are free to use whatever technology is available to your great house as of the middle of the 3050s, but you CANNOT use any type of fusion engine or fission engine. You are limited to ICE or Fuel Cell powerful only, to avoid emitting the dreaded neutrinos.

Canonical context: Neutrino detectors are a thing in the battletech universe, having first been mentioned in the Explorer Corps rulebook and getting a fluff mention in Strategic operations, but they were considered so game breaking that no updated rules were provided for them.

Let that sink in. The same writers who let us have Nukes think we shouldn't have neutrino detectors. That's how game breaking being able to detect every fusion engine within a range measured in AU is considered.

So yeah, the systems exist, the clans are reported to have them, and they are almost as effective as the hype might suggest, but they are also likely so vanishingly rare that the chance of encountering one is non-existent.

Also the notion of a neutrino-blocking blanket you can throw over your mech is also something mentioned in canon (I think it was one of the Blaine Lee Pardoe books, but I can't remember which one). And it also almost certainly doesn't work.
Good news is the lab boys say the symptoms of asbestos poisoning show an immediate latency of 44.6 years. So if you're thirty or over you're laughing. Worst case scenario you miss out on a few rounds of canasta, plus you've forwarded the cause of science by three centuries. I punch those numbers into my calculator, it makes a happy face.

(indirect accessory to the) Slayer of Monitors!

Speedbump

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  • Posts: 361
Re: Design challenge: Neutrino stealthy battlemech
« Reply #1 on: 14 September 2024, 04:03:24 »
The Labrys is an ambush predator. Designed to alpha strike once to get up to heat, advance under the cover of smoke and then get stuck in with the axe it takes it's name from:
Code: [Select]
Labrys LBS-2S

Mass: 75 tons
Tech Base: Inner Sphere
Chassis Config: Biped
Rules Level: Era Specific
Era: Clan Invasion
Tech Rating/Era Availability: E/X-X-E-D
Production Year: 3058
Dry Cost: 7,950,250 C-Bills
Total Cost: 8,027,250 C-Bills
Battle Value: 1,635

Chassis: Unknown Endo-Steel
Power Plant: Unknown 300 Fuel Cell Engine
Walking Speed: 43.2 km/h (54.0 km/h)
Maximum Speed: 64.8 km/h (86.4 km/h)
Jump Jets: None
    Jump Capacity: 0 meters
Armor: Unknown Standard Armor w/ CASE
Armament:
    1  LB 10-X AC
    2  LRM-5s
    1  Hatchet
    3  ER Small Lasers
    1  Small Laser
    1  TAG
Manufacturer: Unknown
    Primary Factory: Unknown
Communications System: Unknown
Targeting and Tracking System: Unknown

================================================================================
Equipment           Type                         Rating                   Mass 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Internal Structure: Endo-Steel                   114 points                4.00
    Internal Locations: 3 LT, 1 RT, 3 LA, 3 RA, 2 LL, 2 RL
Engine:             Fuel-Cell Engine             300                      23.00
    Walking MP: 4 (5)
    Running MP: 6 (8)
    Jumping MP: 0
Heat Sinks:         Double Heat Sink             2(4)                      1.00
Gyro:               Standard                                               3.00
Cockpit:            Standard                                               3.00
Power Amplifiers:                                                          0.50
    Actuators:      L: SH+UA+LA+H    R: SH+UA+LA
    TSM Locations: 3 LT, 3 RT
Armor:              Standard Armor               AV - 224                 14.00
    CASE Locations: 1 RT                                                   0.50

                                                      Internal       Armor     
                                                      Structure      Factor     
                                                Head     3            9         
                                        Center Torso     23           36       
                                 Center Torso (rear)                  9         
                                           L/R Torso     16           24       
                                    L/R Torso (rear)                  8         
                                             L/R Arm     12           24       
                                             L/R Leg     16           29       

================================================================================
Equipment                                 Location    Heat    Critical    Mass 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
TAG                                          HD        0         1         1.00
ER Small Laser                               CT        2         1         0.50
Small Laser                                  CT        1         1         0.50
LRM-5                                        RT        2         1         2.00
ER Small Laser                               RT        2         1         0.50
LRM-5                                        LT        2         1         2.00
ER Small Laser                               LT        2         1         0.50
LB 10-X AC                                   RA        2         6        11.00
Hatchet                                      LA        -         5         5.00
@LRM-5 (Smoke) (24)                          RT        -         1         1.00
@LB 10-X (Slug) (10)                         RT        -         1         1.00
@LB 10-X (Cluster) (10)                      RT        -         1         1.00
                                            Free Critical Slots: 6

BattleForce Statistics
MV      S (+0)  M (+2)  L (+4)  E (+6)   Wt.   Ov   Armor:      7    Points: 16
4          1       1       1       0      3     2   Structure:  6
Special Abilities: TSM, MEL, TAG, CASE, SRCH, EE, ES, SEAL, SOA, FLK 0/0/0
If smoke ammo runs out it can continue to use the autocannon and a laser to maintain it's heat profile, but getting up to heat with the lasers alone will take 30 seconds unless some quick heat sink manipulation is done. Clan Elementals are the designs greatest weak point and the TAG make it easier for (non-fusion powered) artillery support to help address this.

Daryk

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Re: Design challenge: Neutrino stealthy battlemech
« Reply #2 on: 14 September 2024, 04:15:18 »
Hmmm... yeah, I think Fuel Cells are the way to go.  Those and Gauss Rifles... ;)

DevianID

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  • Posts: 2006
Re: Design challenge: Neutrino stealthy battlemech
« Reply #3 on: 14 September 2024, 04:42:12 »
I think there are fun stories to be told about this idea, all of them wrong and only possible in the confusion of the early clan invasion, when the idea of the invaders being aliens transitioned to them being the star league returning.

General: "How are they dropping right on top of our mech forces!"
Science guy in the generals entourage trained by comstar: "hmmm its possibe they are using neutrino sensors to detect your fusion engines.  I'll reach out to my comstar contacts"

Focht asks the clans if they have neutrino detectors.  The ilclan showers recalls that several neutrino detectors were installed under the ice cap on huntress, to continue terran research traditions build by CERN.

Ilclan, bragging about the prestige of continuing ancient terran scientific traditions "Yes, we have several highly sensitive neutrino detectors"

Word gets back to the generals science advisor rrained by comstar, who definately isnt a comstar plant: "General the clans have very sensitive neutrino detectors.  You should try covering your mechs in a wire mesh faraday cage."

General: "But that will isolate our units by cutting off their communications!"

Scientist: "however the anti-neutrino blankets will definately make your units invisible to clan sensors"

Later, mechwarriors hear of this and insist their techs blanket their mechs in "hope cages" before marching out to fight the invading clans.

But to the OP, i agree with Daryk that fuel cells and gauss rifles are the only real combo that works, as the lack of engine heat sinks is brutal.  The LB10x, by speedbump, is also workable.

Daryk

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Re: Design challenge: Neutrino stealthy battlemech
« Reply #4 on: 14 September 2024, 05:41:37 »
Here's a relatively cheap trooper with weapons for all scales:
Code: [Select]
Slugger

Mass: 50 tons
Tech Base: Inner Sphere
Chassis Config: Biped
Rules Level: Experimental Tech
Era: Clan Invasion
Tech Rating/Era Availability: E/X-X-E-D
Production Year: 3070
Dry Cost: 3,329,470 C-Bills
Total Cost: 3,390,683 C-Bills
Battle Value: 1,269

Construction Options: Fractional Accounting

Chassis: Unknown Endo-Steel
Power Plant: Unknown 200 Fuel Cell Engine
Walking Speed: 43.2 km/h
Maximum Speed: 64.8 km/h
Jump Jets: None
    Jump Capacity: 0 meters
Armor: Unknown Ferro-Fibrous w/ CASE
Armament:
    1  Gauss Rifle
    1  Magshot
    3  Light Machine Guns
Manufacturer: Unknown
    Primary Factory: Unknown
Communications System: Unknown
Targeting and Tracking System: Unknown

================================================================================
Equipment           Type                         Rating                   Mass 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Internal Structure: Endo-Steel                    83 points                2.500
    Internal Locations: 1 HD, 1 CT, 3 LT, 3 LA, 2 RA, 2 LL, 2 RL
Engine:             Fuel-Cell Engine             200                      10.200
    Walking MP: 4
    Running MP: 6
    Jumping MP: 0
Heat Sinks:         Single Heat Sink             2                         1.000
Gyro:               Standard                                               2.000
Cockpit:            Standard                                               3.000
    Actuators:      L: SH+UA+LA+H    R: SH+UA+LA+H
Armor:              Ferro-Fibrous                AV - 168                  9.374
    Armor Locations: 7 LT, 5 LA, 2 RA
    CASE Locations: 1 RT                                                   0.500

                                                      Internal       Armor     
                                                      Structure      Factor     
                                                Head     3            9         
                                        Center Torso     16           24       
                                 Center Torso (rear)                  7         
                                           L/R Torso     12           18       
                                    L/R Torso (rear)                  6         
                                             L/R Arm     8            16       
                                             L/R Leg     12           24       

================================================================================
Equipment                                 Location    Heat    Critical    Mass 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
3 Light Machine Guns                         RA        0         3         1.500
Gauss Rifle                                  RT        1         7        15.000
Magshot                                      RT        1         2         0.500
@Gauss Rifle (8)                             RT        -         1         1.000
@LMG (1/2) (85)                              RT        -         1         0.425
@Gauss Rifle (16)                            LT        -         2         2.000
@Magshot Gauss Rifle (50)                    CT        -         1         1.000
                                            Free Critical Slots: 1

BattleForce Statistics
MV      S (+0)  M (+2)  L (+4)  E (+6)   Wt.   Ov   Armor:      6    Points: 13
4          2       2       2       0      2     0   Structure:  4
Special Abilities: CASE, SRCH, EE, ES, SEAL, SOA

glitterboy2098

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  • Posts: 12334
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Re: Design challenge: Neutrino stealthy battlemech
« Reply #5 on: 14 September 2024, 11:03:22 »
IRL neutrino detectors have shitty directionality, and are absolutely massive. while another thousand years of development is likely to shrink them down and increase their rate of detection, i doubt the directionality issue would improve much.

this suggests that they'd be more like alarm systems for detecting unauthorized fusion engine use rather than tracking systems. that is, you have a detector, and it outputs some info on all the fusion activity in the system. letting you detect when a new fusion reactor arrives, and based on the details of output and the specific mix of flavors of the neutrino's coming from it, let you gauge some details about the size and power-output of the engine. which lets you estimate the make and model of the thing using it.

PuppyLikesLaserPointers

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  • Posts: 2006
Re: Design challenge: Neutrino stealthy battlemech
« Reply #6 on: 14 September 2024, 14:07:24 »
Code: [Select]
Conductor (Prototype)

Mass: 70 tons
Chassis: Standard Biped
Power Plant: 280 Fuel Cell
Cruising Speed: 43.2 kph
Maximum Speed: 86.4 kph
Jump Jets: None
     Jump Capacity: 0 meters
Armor: Reflective
Armament:
     1 TAG
     1 Small X-Pulse Laser
     1 Snub-Nose PPC
Manufacturer: Unknown
     Primary Factory: Unknown
Communication System: Unknown
Targeting & Tracking System: Unknown
Introduction Year: 3058
Tech Rating/Availability: E/X-X-X-F
Cost: 15,476,573 C-bills

Type: Conductor
Technology Base: Inner Sphere (Experimental)
Tonnage: 70
Battle Value: 2,284

Equipment                                          Mass
Internal Structure                                    7
Engine                        280 Fuel Cell        19.5
Walking MP: 4
Running MP: 6(8)
Jumping MP: 0
Double Heat Sink              14 [28]                13
Gyro                                                  3
Cockpit                                               3
Armor Factor (Reflective)     216                  13.5

                          Internal   Armor   
                          Structure  Value   
     Head                    3         9     
     Center Torso            22        33   
     Center Torso (rear)               10   
     R/L Torso               15        23   
     R/L Torso (rear)                  7     
     R/L Arm                 11        22   
     R/L Leg                 15        30   


Right Arm Actuators: Shoulder, Upper Arm, Lower Arm, Hand
Left Arm Actuators: Shoulder, Upper Arm, Lower Arm, Hand

Weapons
and Ammo                              Location  Critical   Heat    Tonnage
Supercharger                             CT        1        -       2.0   
Null Signature System               CT/RT/LT/RA/LA/RL/LL1/1/1/1/1/1/1    -       0.0   
Chameleon Light Polarization Shield RT/LT/RA/LA/RL/LL1/1/1/1/1/1    -       0.0   
Small X-Pulse Laser                      RT        1        3       1.0   
Double Heat Sink                         RT        3        -       1.0   
6 Triple Strength Myomer                 LA        6        -       0.0   
Snub-Nose PPC                            LT        2        10      6.0   
2 Double Heat Sink                       LT        6        -       2.0   
TAG                                      HD        1        0       1.0   


I concur that it's not the 'cheap' model. But still it's doable.

The main idea of this is keep turn on the stealth systems and engage the enemy by using its snub nose PPC. Among the ground armor scale direct weapons only LB 2-X outranges its short range, and only ultra AC/2 has the same short range bracket. Thus, provided it can keep the 9 hex distance with the enemy clans mech, it can forcing -4 modifier for on the medium range+stealth systems, while enjoy +0 modifier for having the target on the short range.

Reflective armor ensures that it have more endurance against the sniping by large pulse laser.


Daryk

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  • The Double Deuce II/II-σ
Re: Design challenge: Neutrino stealthy battlemech
« Reply #7 on: 15 September 2024, 06:27:46 »
Here's the assault version of the Slugger:
Code: [Select]
Heavy Hitter

Mass: 100 tons
Tech Base: Inner Sphere
Chassis Config: Biped
Rules Level: Experimental Tech
Era: Clan Invasion
Tech Rating/Era Availability: E/X-X-E-D
Production Year: 3070
Dry Cost: 8,390,000 C-Bills
Total Cost: 8,508,600 C-Bills
Battle Value: 2,255

Construction Options: Fractional Accounting

Chassis: Unknown Endo-Steel
Power Plant: Unknown 300 Fuel Cell Engine
Walking Speed: 32.4 km/h
Maximum Speed: 54.0 km/h
Jump Jets: None
    Jump Capacity: 0 meters
Armor: Unknown Standard Armor w/ CASE
Armament:
    2  Gauss Rifles
    1  LRM-5
    2  Magshots
    4  Light Machine Guns
Manufacturer: Unknown
    Primary Factory: Unknown
Communications System: Unknown
Targeting and Tracking System: Unknown

================================================================================
Equipment           Type                         Rating                   Mass 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Internal Structure: Endo-Steel                   152 points                5.000
    Internal Locations: 6 LT, 4 RT, 2 LL, 2 RL
Engine:             Fuel-Cell Engine             300                      22.800
    Walking MP: 3
    Running MP: 5
    Jumping MP: 0
Heat Sinks:         Single Heat Sink             6                         5.000
Gyro:               Standard                                               3.000
Cockpit:            Standard                                               3.000
    Actuators:      L: SH+UA+LA+H    R: SH+UA+LA+H
Armor:              Standard Armor               AV - 304                 19.000
    CASE Locations: 1 LT, 1 RT                                             1.000

                                                      Internal       Armor     
                                                      Structure      Factor     
                                                Head     3            8         
                                        Center Torso     31           50       
                                 Center Torso (rear)                  10       
                                           L/R Torso     21           32       
                                    L/R Torso (rear)                  10       
                                             L/R Arm     17           34       
                                             L/R Leg     21           42       

================================================================================
Equipment                                 Location    Heat    Critical    Mass 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gauss Rifle                                  RA        1         7        15.000
Light Machine Gun                            RA        0         1         0.500
Gauss Rifle                                  LA        1         7        15.000
Light Machine Gun                            LA        0         1         0.500
Magshot                                      RT        1         2         0.500
LRM-5                                        RT        2         1         2.000
Magshot                                      LT        1         2         0.500
2 Light Machine Guns                         CT        0         2         1.000
@Gauss Rifle (16)                            RT        -         2         2.000
@LRM-5 (12)                                  RT        -         1         0.500
@LRM-5 (Smoke) (12)                          RT        -         1         0.500
@Gauss Rifle (16)                            LT        -         2         2.000
@LMG (1/2) (40)                              LT        -         1         0.200
@Magshot Gauss Rifle (50)                    HD        -         1         1.000
                                            Free Critical Slots: 0

BattleForce Statistics
MV      S (+0)  M (+2)  L (+4)  E (+6)   Wt.   Ov   Armor:     10    Points: 23
3          4       5       4       0      4     0   Structure:  8
Special Abilities: CASE, SRCH, EE, ES, SEAL, SOA

 

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