Clan Large Pulse Lasers

[Colt Ward]

Agreed, I'd also consider Smoke a good hard counter or fast hovercraft with Infernos. Can't snipe what you can't see, but I can indirect fire toward you.

Scaphas are great against cLPL, I know I frustrated someone when I introduced them to the 2 MVSPL config against a TWolf B in a BV match.  Only thing that hit was the LPL, damage cut in half . . . and then my MVSPLs double tapped the same rear side torso armor.

[DevianID]

Scaphas are great against cLPL, I know I frustrated someone when I introduced them to the 2 MVSPL config against a TWolf B in a BV match.  Only thing that hit was the LPL, damage cut in half . . . and then my MVSPLs double tapped the same rear side torso armor.

I mean, that kind of goes to my point.  If the only thing that hit was the large pulse, despite the large pulse only dealing 5 damage, it was still putting in more damage then the LRM or Gauss Rifle on a Timby B.  On the high end of the bell curve accuracy trumps all, and speed+smoke quickly take you to the high end of the bell curve over inflating the importance of pulse accuracy.
Or like Ferro-Lam.  Ferro Lam reduces everything by 1 per 5.  SRMs lose far more damage then Large Pulse Lasers, and still have to hit on big numbers while the LPL has that massive accuracy.  Only heat damage isnt reduced by ferro lam, but if you have more then 15 heat sinks you can be immune to excess heat damage.

On the topic of MPL versus LPL, its more an activity level thing.  MPLs are more damage/efficient, but you have to move into closer range.  The LPL often just parks in woods (with smoke if you allowed it for some reason), so its a very non-interactive weapon.  From the midboard the LPL can hit anything accurately, forcing the other player to have to deal with it.  So while the 14 MPL 100 ton clan mechs will shred up close, the 4 LPL mechs deal damage without bothering to maneuver or anything, forcing the other player to have to play the game for both sides.  But at MRC we ban all pulse damage after a threshold has been reached... my Nova/Blackhawk S otherwise is a right terror with 6 MPLs.

[PuppyLikesLaserPointers]

I think the issue here is that any counter to the LPL is just a generic thing to try and 'out cheese' the LPL.  Its not a healthy solution, as most solutions are just generally good things versus all weapons, meaning the LPL, king of regular weapons, is still the best counter for them.

Basically this. Those so called solutions are all end up gives the advantage to the LPL, nothing else, since LPL is still the best choice over the other long ranged direct fire weapons and those 'solutions' make the non-LPL weapons even worse, and only push the meta to consolidate the superiority of LPL.

I've never felt the LPL was king of weapons myself.
I have a LOT more fear of the MPL.

Well, you cannot compare both of those, for those weapons have totally different role. While MPL is good at medium range harrasser LPL is the best long ranged sniper rifle. If MPL cannot cause more damage than LPL on their right range bracket, it must be wrong.

[Daryk]

Against fast things in terrain, indirect AOE über alles...

[Challenger]

Against fast things in terrain, indirect AOE über alles...

You’re not wrong, but Clan LPL do have the advantage of being tournament legal so more widely/reliably available.

Challenger

[PuppyLikesLaserPointers]

Not to mention that AOE weapons are not easy to acquire. Most of those are very inefficient and/or too heavy, leaving only few weapons and units to be usable.

[wundergoat]

Scaphas are great against cLPL, I know I frustrated someone when I introduced them to the 2 MVSPL config against a TWolf B in a BV match.  Only thing that hit was the LPL, damage cut in half . . . and then my MVSPLs double tapped the same rear side torso armor.

I’ve not done the calcs for MVSPLs, but LVSPL BV is so busted it makes pulse lasers seem overpriced.  LVSPLs have lower BV than expected for their damage without any sort of accuracy bonus.

[Hellraiser]

Not to mention that AOE weapons are not easy to acquire. Most of those are very inefficient and/or too heavy, leaving only few weapons and units to be usable.

True, but, it doesn't take many of them to stop a fast horde.
I seem to recall having a pair of Thumpers in a battle that quickly dispatched the 3 Drillsons/Pegasi? that were trying to get into the back field to kill the Thumpers.
Many "fast" things are either light on armor or easily immobilized.
Sure, they didn't do a ton of damage, but, with some bigger units to screen in front of them the damage added up quickly when it couldn't be countered.

[Col Toda]

Have the guy with a large pulse laser fight a fast more manuverable mech with a Snub Nosed PPC and combat reflexes ie initiative roll 3d6 take the best 2 . Just keep to range 9 and let them see a unit that is just as accurate at range 9 with inner Sphere tech .

[OatsAndHall]

Well the weapon is essentially undercosted in BV (baked in to-hit modifiers in general are aren't valued quite right, MRMs and heavy lasers are overcosted for their to hit penalty) and as such units with them are also on cheap side for their effectiveness. So it is easy to see dislike for them.

"You can field them too" is not really a good counter-argument though. That requires wanting to field units that use the weapon, in other words mixed tech or Clan units. For some factions that may not even be an option (if one does follow faction restrictions).

Counterplay for cLPLs is tricky.
Reflective armor units are expensive (perhaps even overtly so, again a minor problem with BV2.0) and not that common. And requires selecting these units.
One could utilize sheer mass of heavily armored units that are on the slower side (so the cLPL's bonus accuracy is effectively negated), but again this requires tailoring ones forces, rather than playing what one may regard fun.

A group having fun is certainly something to consider, because if it won't stay fun soon there might not even be a group.

I'm not saying you shouldn't be able to field the weapon either though. But if other players regard playing against you not fun, it may be you do utilize just too many cLPLs. Or perhaps there's something else that just makes it appear the cLPL is the problem rather, eg suppose you're clearly more skilled player but others appear to perceive it as being the result of the cLPL, or your general forces are just simply better constructed.

Going back to the first point, if you are playing BV balanced games, you could play with slight handicap against others without cLPLs. Suppose 10 000 BV game, you build your force only to 9500 BV (or they get X-amount of extra BV if they don't use cLPLs). Small difference might make the game feel more even.
Granted it may be difficult to find a point where this has benefit for them, doesn't actually constrain you too much, and things actually end being even. Or more importantly, fun, at least i think a loss can be fun if the game was enjoyable otherwise.

If overall force building is the problem, it might be a good idea to work with them to improve those forces in a way they still find their forces fun to play. There are units that are better than their BV implies and units that are arguably worse than their BV, and some units just don't have synergy together, and whatever else pitfalls force building may have.
But if there are no problems on this, not sure what else to suggest.

EDIT Judging by other replies there is more to this? Note i wrote my post entirely without any larger context, no knowledge about you, your group, whatever issues you may have had before.

Yeah, a few guys in my regular gaming group tend to get whiny when new tech/strategies pop up on the table. They got frustrated with the use of BA spotting for IDF and then lost their minds when I ran TAG for the first time.

I could understand their frustration if the table was spammed with CLPL but it isn't. We had a few games where the the table was filled with Clan pulse lasers and then everyone started running Reflective armor. Folks got bored with that so we started diversifying and moved forward. But, now we have guys who never bring them and get p-ssed off when someone else does. One of our regulars will only bring IS tech to 3150 games as he either wants more units or better pilots. But... He loses his mind when he gets ripped up by Clan pulses because he just can't match them.

Edit: Our IS-only player could handle the lower tech if he was a more conscientious player. There's been numerous times where he's had numerous, monster IS units but just hasn't figured out the movement-modifier aspect of the game. He tends to over-expose himself with poor movement (typically running for short distances) and then gets wrecked. He ran a late era Wolverine 4 hexes with no-cover, within 6 hexes of my stationary Dire Wolf A and was furious when he got raked with CLPLs, a Gauss round and SRMs...

[Charistoph]

He loses his mind when he gets ripped up by Clan pulses because he just can't match them.

Or he just never bothered trying to counter it.

One of the most frustrating fights I had was with someone who brought VTOL-borne TAG for his Semi-Guided LRM Carriers.  I created my list to use Celestial Primes, an Avatar with C3i, and a Point of Protomechs, i.e. no Flak or Pulse.  However, I recognized that it was my fault for bringing an unprepared list.  Since then, I bring Flak whenever the Tech Level allows for it.

[Retry]

Hate to say it, but it sounds like that one player is actively gimping himself by taking 3025-only tech while not having the tactical acumen to actually pull that off...

[Hellraiser]

You don't even need Standard tech really.

This is why I asked about Force Sizes & Map Sizes & # of LPLs.

Sure, is a Warhawk-C pretty scary.  Yep.  But I can bring 3 Awesomes w/ 3 Gunners for a Pair of Warhawks w/ 4 Gunners.

Mass/#s can & does win plenty of fights.

Vixen giving you problems?  Unless your fighting on rolling maps, it can be surrounded by a pair of Jenner-F or a Platoon (or 2) of Hovers.
Savannah Swarm does wonders, but basic Pegasus tanks also work.

The LPL only seems invincible if you are playing right into it's strengths which is sniping at slower or weak armor units.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

ER PPCs are the weapons for sniping slow-moving targets.  LPLs are what you counter fast but fragile enemies with.

[PuppyLikesLaserPointers]

Well Clans LPL is better at sniping than ER PPC due to its longer effective range too. 6/14/20 surely outranges -/7/14. Unless the pilot of the unit with ER PPC have gunnery better than 3+ and have Sniper SPA, thus change the range bracket of ER PPC by -/7/14/23.

And, although it is true that the better weapon does not grants an auto win button and tactics does matters, but it is the problem as well - because tactics does matters, of course, and your opponent is not a dumb and simple programmed script that cannot making a tactic either. Perhaps it would be works against dumb AI, but with almost similar level it would be very likely that the someone with the better weapon beats someone without.

[OatsAndHall]

Hate to say it, but it sounds like that one player is actively gimping himself by taking 3025-only tech while not having the tactical acumen to actually pull that off...

He's bringing later era IS tech (Clanbuster mechs through 3150) and has been playing awhile. But, he's still behind the curve when it comes to to many aspects of the game. He'll move a mech, have LOS on one of mine and need 9+ TH while I only need 6+, returning fire. Now, we have a couple of guys in the group who struggle at times and we'll talk about what went wrong during and after the game. That used to help keep the whining to a dull roar but not so much as of late.  Our GM does a good job of introducing various environmental conditions that keeps the group from spamming certain weapons of technology. HAGs are all over the board? Okay, now we have heavy wind conditions. Everyone has TCs? Okay, there's an electrical storm mucking them up. He warns everyone ahead of time. Those that read the rules adjust accordingly.

[PuppyLikesLaserPointers]

Well in this situation even if he did have full of clantech units on his hands and are counted as if IS units for BV I doubt that it would be anything different.

[Colt Ward]

Or he just never bothered trying to counter it.

One of the most frustrating fights I had was with someone who brought VTOL-borne TAG for his Semi-Guided LRM Carriers.  I created my list to use Celestial Primes, an Avatar with C3i, and a Point of Protomechs, i.e. no Flak or Pulse.  However, I recognized that it was my fault for bringing an unprepared list.  Since then, I bring Flak whenever the Tech Level allows for it.

I loved fighting these type of people (not saying you are that type) on MegaMek servers . . . they build a force to bring the greatest number of hole punchers on the least platforms with slabs or armor.  I bring a mix of units in high numbers and always multiple LB-10X . . . they then complain about suffering a TAC.

Well yeah, you built to pound armor while I built to isolate & cripple- ESPECIALLY against Gauss Rifles since they tend to be in torsos with IS XLs.

Sure, sometimes I take unlucky breaks and that Wall of Steel is going to win- usually I was in position to withdraw b/c I was not in 3/5 plodders.  But a force designed to deal with multiple threats will generally win if played properly.

Ranged punchers- ERPPC, ERLL, Gauss, PPCs & to a lesser extent UAC/10s
Lots of hits at a distance for crits or TACs, typically AA too-  LB-10X, Silver Bullet Gauss, LB-5X
Infernos for BA, Inf, and vehicles
Something fast to get around the flanks to split the attention

[Daryk]

If the Sniper SPA is in play, remember it applies to Extreme Range too (not LOS though, fortunately).  That means a shot at twice Medium Range is only +3, easier than a "normal" pilot at Long Range.

[truetanker]

Not a Rifleman variant, that's the Rifleman IIC.  The Supernova 4 also packs four of them.

3 cLPLs and run, with a 3/4 Pilot, yes please, no range band discrepancy, or torso twist limits and maximum elevation?

TT

[OatsAndHall]

We used to "encourage" balanced forces but now our GM is setting up scenarios that pretty much demand it. Regardless of the BV, you'll always find a mix of weapons within my build. I'll almost always have at least one CLPL, some LRMs and an LBX-10. Everything else is a mix, depending on what I feel like playing and/or the scenario for the week. We're playing a scenario this week and I'll be defending a city. As such, I'm going to have more PL (Clan and IS) as I know the assaulting force is going to be full of jumpers.

[Son of Kerenski]

I'd rather pick a Clans LPL over Clans ER PPC, for example, for Clans LPL seems to be far superior weapon - although it has lower damage output but has longer effective range than Clans ER PPC. Yes, I said that LPL has longer effective range than ER PPC, and you read it correctly, for you can rarely hit the target on the long range bracket but thanks to -2 to hit modifier LPL can aims the targets in long range as if that is on the medium range.

Except the CERPPC and CERLL have a longer range where I can hit them and they cant hit me. I'll take that any day. Plus the CERLL and CLPL have exactly the same hit numbers at ranges 7 & 8 and 15 & 16 because thats a longer ranger bracket for the CLPL compared to the CERLL.

Same damage for both weapons and the CERLL is 4 tons compared to the CLPL. 1 of those extra tons goes to a DHS to compensate for the extra 2 heat from a CERLL and the other can go to armour or another weapon.

[Charistoph]

Except the CERPPC and CERLL have a longer range where I can hit them and they cant hit me. I'll take that any day. Plus the CERLL and CLPL have exactly the same hit numbers at ranges 7 & 8 and 15 & 16 because thats a longer ranger bracket for the CLPL compared to the CERLL.

Same damage for both weapons and the CERLL is 4 tons compared to the CLPL. 1 of those extra tons goes to a DHS to compensate for the extra 2 heat from a CERLL and the other can go to armour or another weapon.

I think you're overestimating the ability to hit something for the average pilot when the Range modifier is a cumulative +4 equivalent (as opposed to Pulse's +2).

[DevianID]

Yeah.  The Clan large pulse, when factoring in bonuses, has a +0 'short range' to 14 hexes, compared to the ER large at 8, and has a +2 'medium range' to 20, compared to the ER large at 15.  And the ER large has a 'long range' from 16-25, but with a +4 hit penalty unless you are firing at a stationary target with no cover, it takes 3 ER larges to get 1 hit when long range jousting.  So as long as the large pulse laser mech can move from 25 hexes to 20 hexes, in like 3 game turns, the Pulses will win in long range trades after maybe 5 game turns.  The ER Large just doesnt do any significant damage at range 21-25 that outweighs the damage the large pulse does at 20 and fewer hexes.  Kiting and playing the entire game at range 25 just isnt a thing--there are not enough turns in the average game to make it a viable strategy in a 2-3 hour game--the pulse lasers WILL close into range in any normal map circumstance.

[PuppyLikesLaserPointers]

Except the CERPPC and CERLL have a longer range where I can hit them and they cant hit me. I'll take that any day. Plus the CERLL and CLPL have exactly the same hit numbers at ranges 7 & 8 and 15 & 16 because thats a longer ranger bracket for the CLPL compared to the CERLL.

Same damage for both weapons and the CERLL is 4 tons compared to the CLPL. 1 of those extra tons goes to a DHS to compensate for the extra 2 heat from a CERLL and the other can go to armour or another weapon.

Only if the pilot have sniper SPA, or have about gunnery of 2+ to 1+. +4 modifier to to-hit roll generally means it is unlikely to hit anything, or sometimes it's literally does by reach to above 12+(13+ or more is always miss, you know). Only the hit does matters. Thounsands of lethal attacks that simply missed is not harmful at all, and only an attack that hits is far powerful than that. Well even at 12+ it's better than no attacks are allowed, though, but the distance that actually outranges LPL is not so long enough to actually have a meaningful outcome.

It would be not half bad to have some ERLL if you are about to making some trailers and fortifications that does not expected to move at all, howerver. For they won't suffer the to hit penalty on their own move and even if they are outranged by only a hex that surely results the opponent can freely shoot them to death without any chance of retaliation. But for any mobile platform, I doubt that CERLL outranges CLPL - and CLPL will effectively outranges CERLL, actually. Maybe there are some corner cases, such as VTOLs can shoot ERLL while circling the enemy or keep go backwards so leaves no chances to let them got caught within 20 hexes. But that would be the corner case.

An another possible situation is to employ C3 network, for in this case the other weapons will enjoy the better accuracy. Problem is LPL can enjoy the same benefit as well, and its range is not that short either. Not to mention that it only applies to either mixed tech or society units.

[Hellraiser]

and the other can go to armour or another weapon.

I would suggest when comparing accuracy that the best option for that ton is a TC.

Then your at least getting closer to actual #s for Tonnage Used v/s Accuracy

ERLL/DHS/TC
1-6 (-1),  7-8 (-1),  9-14 (+1),  15 (+1),  16-20  (+3),  21-25 (+3)

LPL
1-6 (-2),  7-8 (0),  9-14 (0),  15 (+2),  16-20 (+2),  21-25 (N/A)


ERLL Wins  (7,8,15,21-25)  8 Hexes   (3 by +1,  5 No Fire)
LPL Wins  (1-6, 9-14, 16-20)  17 Hexes by +1
TIE  (None)


The LPL doesn't win as a no return fire "sniping" weapon.
The LPL doesn't win as an "In your face" weapon.

But, as others have pointed out, the LPL shines in a "harass you from Medium/Long range trade fire" weapon.

That section of hexes from 9-20 is the sweet spot for the LPL.

The question then comes down to, can you keep the enemy in that sweet spot.
OR.
Do you find yourself swarmed by massed MLs inside your bracket or unable to return fire at all from 21+ hexes?

This is why LPLs aren't very useful on things like DireWolves/Warhawks even though some configs have lots of them.
They can't keep the range where they want it & the LPL isn't going to blow limbs off quite the way ERPPC/Gauss do & can't out range (ERLL) or stay out of LOS (LRMs) from you.

IMHO, It's very much at home on slower Clan Mediums (6/9) & Faster Clan Heavies (5/8), IE, Heavy Cavalry formations.
Stuff that I have no intention of "Parking" on a hill but also stuff that isn't made for being in the enemy rear area in 2 turns.

It's not about running away while shooting over its shoulder like a Viper-B is w/ that ERPPC on a rolling maps scenario.
It's about flanking at Medium/Long range to work the edges of the enemy &/or taking out their backstabbers as they dash forward looking for cover from the gunboats parked at the far side of the map.

Finally, as w/ all things BT,  the Terrain your in, mechs the gun is on, & skill of the player are likely more important than the stats of the weapon really.

[General308]

We used to "encourage" balanced forces but now our GM is setting up scenarios that pretty much demand it. Regardless of the BV, you'll always find a mix of weapons within my build. I'll almost always have at least one CLPL, some LRMs and an LBX-10. Everything else is a mix, depending on what I feel like playing and/or the scenario for the week. We're playing a scenario this week and I'll be defending a city. As such, I'm going to have more PL (Clan and IS) as I know the assaulting force is going to be full of jumpers.

Seems the GM should just not tell you what the senerio is going to be ahead of time hence encouraging eveyone to go back to balanced forces

[Charistoph]

Seems the GM should just not tell you what the senerio is going to be ahead of time hence encouraging eveyone to go back to balanced forces

Or set it up where bring Pulse Lasers is pretty much impossible.

[DevianID]

ERLL Wins  (7,8,15,21-25)  8 Hexes   (3 by +1,  5 No Fire)

The only issue I have with this is that while you are balancing by tonnage here, at 6 tons for 1 LPL or 6 tons for ER large, DHS, and Tcomp, the tcomp is not exclusive to the ER large, and tonnage isnt a good balancing metric.

The difference between 2 ER large with a tcomp and 24 HS at 12 tons, and 2 large pulse with a tcomp and 20 HS at 15 tons, is only 3 tons.  So pretty much every heavy+ omnimech can still fit the tcomp and take lots of LPL.

So while you show the ER Large winning at hexes 7,8,15, that is only because of the tcomp, which the LPL could also have for just a couple of tons.  And, if the ER large laser does get the tcomp and the LPL doesnt, the ER large now costs 310 BV compared to the LPL at 265.  So you pay 45 BV more with the ER large plus Tcomp, for a weapon combination that is worse-- 17 hexes versus 8

[truetanker]

My GM once set up a map from the S7 map pack, the Jungle, but added in several pieces of dubious nature. He photocopied some of the City maps and placed them in various places on it. So, we had a Jungle City fight with streets, houses and Municipal buildings as well as the actual map to deal with.

There were Infantry, Vehicles and Mechs defending this "Paradise". The kicker? He added a river portion wide enough to accommodate a pair of custom-built Monitors, paired AC/10's and LRM-5s on standard frames using the saved tonnages to mount them, the LRMs shared a Ammo ton from AC/20 replacement.

We were doing a Mission for "our" Stable on S7 on a back world for extra cash, I had just previously won the salvage rights against a Clan Stable the use of a Turkina C, complete with her technician and former pilot as "bondsman". Whatever that was... anyway. ( )

Yeah, I got the blunt of those two and even my cLPLs didn't do much damage, and I was a bog 4/5 at the time. I was rolling 8s and 9s, when i needed 10s and 11s. I tried to close in, but man, that terrain is brutal. And the weird part, was he got off 6 turns on most of us, the last 4 on me. And I was at 13 hexes out, trying to stay at a good place to minimize the returns and they kept hitting.

Of course, we were playing with the idea you need to have the Piloting skills to work it. You started off with medium weight of 4/5 and "pay" a Million per each level of weight. Or buy it with 4 kills in it like normal. So yeah, I was on my 2nd Kill...

It went 4/5 Medium, +1 each per weight up and -1 each per weight down. On top of your current standard medium weight skill. So if you were a 3/5 in medium, you became a 2/4 in lights, but a 4/6 in heavies and so on.

TT