Author Topic: A Time of War 2nd edition?  (Read 46317 times)

Daryk

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Re: A Time of War 2nd edition?
« Reply #60 on: 17 June 2019, 15:53:32 »
I suppose it could work that way, but be careful about posting house rules outside of the "Fan Designs and Rules" Forum.

BiggRigg42

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Re: A Time of War 2nd edition?
« Reply #61 on: 17 June 2019, 16:03:30 »
Total Warfare to AToW Conversation Rules for Battle Armor

To convert a suit of battle armor’s armor value from TW to AToW, first count the number of tactical armor points on the battle armor’s TW sheet and then consult the BATTLE ARMOR BAR TABLE on page 187 of AToW. The number of tactical armor points of the battle armor TW sheet corresponds to the “Tactical Armor” column of the BATTLE ARMOR BAR TABLE, which then determines the AToW values for that battle armor. This comes from page 186 of AToW: “This armor [battle armor] has special effects in standard play…based on the armor’s starting number of tactical armor points.”

To convert a suit of battle armor’s speed from TW to AToW, understand that 1 TW MP = 15 meters of AToW speed. So, multiply the amount of ground MPs on a battle armor’s TW sheet by 15 to yield that battle armor’s AToW speed in meters per turn.
This is the case because each TW turn lasts 10 seconds, each TW hex represents 30 meters, and each AToW turn lasts for 5 seconds. Consequently, we get a very simple mathematical formula to solve for AToW speed, which I set equal to X:
[(30 meters) / (10seconds)] = [(X meters)/ (5 seconds)]
It is elementary to deduce that X=15. Thus, 1 TW MP = 15 meters of AToW speed because of math. In AToW, the GM can convert meters to MPs as they see fit (from, page 167 of AToW) to more clearly define how many TW MPs equate to how many AToW MPs. 
« Last Edit: 17 June 2019, 16:14:17 by BiggRigg42 »

BiggRigg42

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Re: A Time of War 2nd edition?
« Reply #62 on: 17 June 2019, 16:10:18 »
I suppose it could work that way, but be careful about posting house rules outside of the "Fan Designs and Rules" Forum.

I meant for those to be a GM implementation of the action difficulty table in the same way that the example on page 41 implements said table: "Franz is also wearing camouflage appropriate for the environment, for another +1 roll modifier..."

So, my own example about making a STR check in power armor could analogously read, "The PC who normally gets a -3 on his STR check to deadlift 300lb.s is wearing power armor appropriate for deadlifting and so receives a +3 roll modifier for a net roll modifier of +0."

Daryk

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Re: A Time of War 2nd edition?
« Reply #63 on: 17 June 2019, 16:12:27 »
That'll probably keep you clear of mod wrath...

BiggRigg42

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Re: A Time of War 2nd edition?
« Reply #64 on: 17 June 2019, 16:14:39 »
That'll probably keep you clear of mod wrath...

Thanks for looking out for me!

BiggRigg42

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Re: A Time of War 2nd edition?
« Reply #65 on: 17 June 2019, 16:15:09 »
I accidently quoted myself for no reason and deleted it by replacing it with this.

Daryk

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Re: A Time of War 2nd edition?
« Reply #66 on: 17 June 2019, 16:20:48 »
No problem... it's the least I can do for someone who made a video about using my spreadsheet!  :thumbsup:

victor_shaw

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Re: A Time of War 2nd edition?
« Reply #67 on: 17 June 2019, 16:34:00 »
The point of my post is to discuss what others think the game needs or if things should be changed or streamlined.
Well I should have know all people can do on this site is attack others ideas.
If everyone think the game is great and needs no changes that fine.
Since I can't get anyone to play it here I'll just keep using 2nd.

Total Warfare to AToW Conversation Rules for Battle Armor

To convert a suit of battle armor’s armor value from TW to AToW, first count the number of tactical armor points on the battle armor’s TW sheet and then consult the BATTLE ARMOR BAR TABLE on page 187 of AToW. The number of tactical armor points of the battle armor TW sheet corresponds to the “Tactical Armor” column of the BATTLE ARMOR BAR TABLE, which then determines the AToW values for that battle armor. This comes from page 186 of AToW: “This armor [battle armor] has special effects in standard play…based on the armor’s starting number of tactical armor points.”

To convert a suit of battle armor’s speed from TW to AToW, understand that 1 TW MP = 15 meters of AToW speed. So, multiply the amount of ground MPs on a battle armor’s TW sheet by 15 to yield that battle armor’s AToW speed in meters per turn.
This is the case because each TW turn lasts 10 seconds, each TW hex represents 30 meters, and each AToW turn lasts for 5 seconds. Consequently, we get a very simple mathematical formula to solve for AToW speed, which I set equal to X:
[(30 meters) / (10seconds)] = [(X meters)/ (5 seconds)]
It is elementary to deduce that X=15. Thus, 1 TW MP = 15 meters of AToW speed because of math. In AToW, the GM can convert meters to MPs as they see fit (from, page 167 of AToW) to more clearly define how many TW MPs equate to how many AToW MPs. 

I did not need the rules for Armor I know them.
As for the movement is this conversion office or assumed.
The 2nd and 3rd editions of the game pre AToW had attribute modifiers so why not here?

Daryk

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Re: A Time of War 2nd edition?
« Reply #68 on: 17 June 2019, 16:37:52 »
Attacking others ideas is certainly not the only thing we do on this board.  I just happen to think AToW is pretty good (broadly) as is, and want to make sure that point of view is represented here.

BiggRigg42

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Re: A Time of War 2nd edition?
« Reply #69 on: 17 June 2019, 16:56:21 »

I did not need the rules for Armor I know them.
As for the movement is this conversion office or assumed.
The 2nd and 3rd editions of the game pre AToW had attribute modifiers so why not here?

The movement in this conversion is neither office nor assumed. It is mathematically and logically entailed from the rules as written, and I--as a simple fan--deduced that entailment.

Also, I'm sorry you were feeling attacked. You brought up very good points, and you are correct that the movement rules need to be put in explicitly. Not everyone is going to be able to see what I saw. 

monbvol

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Re: A Time of War 2nd edition?
« Reply #70 on: 17 June 2019, 17:00:06 »
I wouldn't call anything said in this thread an attack.  At most a disagreement or differing of opinion.

And Battlearmor modifiers to attributes depend largely on the equipment installed and the tables for that are at page 216 and 404 of the pdf.

Personally I don't mind that they only effect Strength now as improving any other attribute didn't really make much sense.

BiggRigg42

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Re: A Time of War 2nd edition?
« Reply #71 on: 17 June 2019, 17:10:22 »
I wouldn't call anything said in this thread an attack.  At most a disagreement or differing of opinion.

And Battlearmor modifiers to attributes depend largely on the equipment installed and the tables for that are at page 216 and 404 of the pdf.

Personally I don't mind that they only effect Strength now as improving any other attribute didn't really make much sense.

Dang, you are right. There is a BATTLE ARMOR STRENGTH AND MELEE MODIFIERS TABLE on page 216.

victor_shaw

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Re: A Time of War 2nd edition?
« Reply #72 on: 17 June 2019, 17:22:30 »
The movement in this conversion is neither office nor assumed. It is mathematically and logically entailed from the rules as written, and I--as a simple fan--deduced that entailment.

Also, I'm sorry you were feeling attacked. You brought up very good points, and you are correct that the movement rules need to be put in explicitly. Not everyone is going to be able to see what I saw.

Sorry if you took that as directed at you, it was not intended it was more of a buildup brought on by the fact that know one seemed to get the intent of the thread.
Your information was informative.
As I have said multiple times the reason for this thread was to bring up issues with the game on a forum that the writes or at least someone who can bring it to the writes are at so maybe they can be addressed. If you think there is nothing wrong with the game then fine. Again I think the game as a whole is fine, to me it just has some issues when it comes to character creation that intimidating new player and have a feel of being to generic at the same time, and some non-intuitive rules that once explained are easy to use.
I look at it as, if you don't agree with my opinion fine that's your choice but don't try to convince me that I'm wrong.



victor_shaw

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Re: A Time of War 2nd edition?
« Reply #73 on: 17 June 2019, 17:26:08 »
Dang, you are right. There is a BATTLE ARMOR STRENGTH AND MELEE MODIFIERS TABLE on page 216.

I see the Melee mod but not the STR?

Daryk

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Re: A Time of War 2nd edition?
« Reply #74 on: 17 June 2019, 17:43:59 »
*snip*
I look at it as, if you don't agree with my opinion fine that's your choice but don't try to convince me that I'm wrong.
I'm not trying to convince you, just speak to the same audience you're aiming at...

monbvol

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Re: A Time of War 2nd edition?
« Reply #75 on: 17 June 2019, 17:55:21 »
The STR modifier is the last column on the table.  Which if you don't see means you have an older printing.

SCC

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Re: A Time of War 2nd edition?
« Reply #76 on: 28 June 2019, 19:19:50 »
A second issue is timing. 3rd Edition was released over such a period of time that the Life Paths were spread out over just as many years. Early Field Manuals have RPG rules for 2nd Edition, while after 3rd was released, the Field Manuals had rules for 3rd Edition, and those factions with early Field Manuals languished with 2nd Edition rules for a long time.  The same would've happened with ATOW if they had tried to make specialized Life Paths for each faction. It took something like 10 years for all the Handbooks to come out. Imagine telling Kuritan players that they won't get their Kurita-specific lifepaths until the Kuritan Handbook came out...
You do realize that FM:DC was one of those books that supported 2nd Ed RPG and that HB:HK didn't come out until after AToW came out, so that there was no DC source book during the 3rd Ed RPG run, right?

Sure, you can shove faction specific life Paths into the main book to avoid this timing problem, but now you're looking at having dozens of extra Life Paths, and that makes the book so much bigger. Imagine having to have the space for a House Specific Academy (maybe 2 if you want to have a "Good" Academy and a "Bad" Academy. Oh, and their own ToD as well. And maybe their own Organized Crime Modules. And then add in the Periphery factions. And the Clans. 3rd Edition got to the point where there was a book almost entirely dedicated to Life Paths alone.
Well first thing is that in that Life Path you don't go overboard with how many you offer. It's also a good idea, no matter how tempting, not to offer paths that no player should have access to, like being a Death Commando or member of the Nekakami, and yes those where options for your character in 3rd Ed RPG

Maelwys

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Re: A Time of War 2nd edition?
« Reply #77 on: 28 June 2019, 21:19:18 »
You do realize that FM:DC was one of those books that supported 2nd Ed RPG and that HB:HK didn't come out until after AToW came out, so that there was no DC source book during the 3rd Ed RPG run, right?

Sure. That was the one I was talking about. Funny story about it even. I went to Gencon one year and asked the person at the FASA booth if they were going to do anything, since the older FMs had 2nd edition stats, while the newer ones would presumably have third edition stats. They said they thought maybe they could put the third edition stats online :)

But that just proves my point (though to be fair, the 3rd Edition RPG stats for the DC Academies were published in the Classic BT Compendium). Timing CAN be an issue if you want more faction-specific Life Paths. If you don't want to clutter up the main book, then you have to find a place and a time for them in the product line. Either a faction-specific book, or a Life-Path specific book. PDF can help with this, but its more effort than saying "Here's a generic Academy Life Module, use the affiliation skills and the flex points to make it your own."

Quote
Well first thing is that in that Life Path you don't go overboard with how many you offer. It's also a good idea, no matter how tempting, not to offer paths that no player should have access to, like being a Death Commando or member of the Nekakami, and yes those where options for your character in 3rd Ed RPG

Sure, but you still have to add some. I mean, the Covert Ops Life Module shows that it can be done (and I'm not sure why they did it that way, but left others generic), but its still a bit of work. And you have to make judgements. How many Academies do you do for a faction? What happens if that faction loses access to the Academy that you did (like the DC losing access to the Dieron Gymnasium IIRC)? Do you suddenly have to put out a new Module? And you have to make a decision. The MoC and the Marians get their own Academy. What about Fitvelt?

And you have to do things like ToD, etc etc.

I'm not saying these things are impossible to do. Its not impossible to do faction-specific Modules for a variety of things. After all, 3rd Edition did it for the most part. But its effort. You have to find when and where you're going to release them, and you have to make the additional effort of deciding what is worth including, and what isn't.

And these are potential reasons for why ATOW (for the most part) went with the generic decisions that it did.

Daryk

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Re: A Time of War 2nd edition?
« Reply #78 on: 29 June 2019, 05:36:58 »
The Covert Ops module only provides one "customization" per faction, and takes up nearly a full page of text.  I don't think they'd have made anyone happy with a single Academy per faction (not to mention Enlistments, or Family Training), and it would have thrown off the formatting of the stage 3 schools, which currently neatly fit on two pages.  Tour of Duty has the Stage 4 example embedded in it, and may have lost the column inches necessary for faction customization to that.

victor_shaw

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Re: A Time of War 2nd edition?
« Reply #79 on: 30 June 2019, 00:54:40 »
For 3rd they placed DCM,FWLM, etc. into the Classic Battletech Companion.
But never produced schools for the missing 2nd edition school :(.
Anyway it can be done, and if done now with no new system in the works it could be done without the split that happened between 2nd and 3rd.
And as I said it could be done as PDF only or PDF/POD.

sanpats

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Re: A Time of War 2nd edition?
« Reply #80 on: 23 July 2019, 18:01:52 »
For 3rd they placed DCM,FWLM, etc. into the Classic Battletech Companion.
But never produced schools for the missing 2nd edition school :(.
Anyway it can be done, and if done now with no new system in the works it could be done without the split that happened between 2nd and 3rd.
And as I said it could be done as PDF only or PDF/POD.
Check news about the new RPG edition, MechWarrior: Destiny.
https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=66175.new;topicseen#new

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Dahmin_Toran

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Re: A Time of War 2nd edition?
« Reply #81 on: 24 July 2019, 18:09:42 »
I know a lot of people complain about the Character Generation (and some points I agree), but why can't they just use the Optional Point Buy System?

sanpats

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Re: A Time of War 2nd edition?
« Reply #82 on: 24 July 2019, 18:21:54 »
I know a lot of people complain about the Character Generation (and some points I agree), but why can't they just use the Optional Point Buy System?

Modern RPG is trending toward simplification and rule lite system. For many Classic BT players it may not matter much, but if CGL want to capture a wider RPG market, even the point buy option is still too clunky by modern standard. D&D, Pathfinder, Shadowrun all follows the mainstream trend.
« Last Edit: 24 July 2019, 18:23:39 by sanpats »

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Talen5000

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Re: A Time of War 2nd edition?
« Reply #83 on: 24 July 2019, 18:44:46 »
Modern RPG is trending toward simplification and rule lite system. For many Classic BT players it may not matter much, but if CGL want to capture a wider RPG market, even the point buy option is still too clunky by modern standard. D&D, Pathfinder, Shadowrun all follows the mainstream trend.

As an example...

I like detailed characters. I like having traits and skills that define what a character is, and what he knows or is capable of.

But I also dislike overlapping skills, or minor differences....

Negotiation being wordplay, intimidation being physical is a big difference, but would we need separate skills for Oration and Acting?

By and large, once I know what the character can do, I want rules that are simple.

I don't need to account for every possible modifier in an RPG game the way I need in a board game. In the latter, I need to account for every tree, every hex, every piece of terrain and movement, ECM and so on because TT tactics and fairness dictate that. If I move into a treed hex I should get the benefits of doing so. But in an RPG, I don't need the exact modifier...I just need to know if the shot is easy, difficult or near impossible. Then I need one role to decide if the actions succeeds

As an example - look at the combining Actions example in the ATOW companion. To land a ship it lists the use of six skills. Six skills for one action. That is over complicating for no benefit - I should just need to roll once for that one action, and if there is a failure, then the margin of failure should help determine the seriousness of failure.

One roll - not six. That CGL saw the need to include this as an example is, to my mind, crazy. It should, need one - OK, two for the Acting aspect but no more.

« Last Edit: 25 July 2019, 09:04:37 by Talen5000 »
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Daryk

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Re: A Time of War 2nd edition?
« Reply #84 on: 24 July 2019, 19:27:59 »
Modern RPG is trending toward simplification and rule lite system. For many Classic BT players it may not matter much, but if CGL want to capture a wider RPG market, even the point buy option is still too clunky by modern standard. D&D, Pathfinder, Shadowrun all follows the mainstream trend.
Which doesn't please everyone.  I prefer D&D 3.5, Pathfinder 1.0, and SR 3rd edition...

monbvol

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Re: A Time of War 2nd edition?
« Reply #85 on: 26 July 2019, 11:01:43 »
I will agree dropships should need at most two skills to actually fly.  One of which can be dispensed of if it is a sphereoid.

What I actually find most lacking are proper frameworks upon which to build a neofuedalistic setting.  Even the stuff in the companion is a bit lacking.

victor_shaw

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Re: A Time of War 2nd edition?
« Reply #86 on: 26 July 2019, 14:27:59 »
My hope is that MechWarrior: Destiny fixes what was bad about AToW and leaves the rest allow.
AToW was a good system game mechanics wise its character creation engine was its only issues.
I hope they don't pull a Shadowrun 6th edition and gut the system removing all logic and reason for the sake of "Simplifying".

Ursus Maior

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Re: A Time of War 2nd edition?
« Reply #87 on: 04 August 2019, 07:01:43 »
Or they revamp MW2 with better character creation rules and integration of SPAs and SCAs to make it full compatible with CO and other current rules.
liber et infractus

Paul

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Re: A Time of War 2nd edition?
« Reply #88 on: 04 August 2019, 09:03:48 »
Itll be the Cue system adapted to BT.
The solution is just ignore Paul.

victor_shaw

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Re: A Time of War 2nd edition?
« Reply #89 on: 04 August 2019, 10:45:07 »
Itll be the Cue system adapted to BT.

Wow that was quick.
That one statement ended any interest I had in the new RPG.

 

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