The Aurigan Coalition and the Data Core

[Korzon77]

According to the game, the Data core found on the Argo pretty much was a complete list of all SLDF facilities, both open and secret, in teh periphery.

(Bad Opsec SLDF--no Biscuit!).

But since this came from before the uprising and Amaris conflict, how many of htem would likely survive?  And what use would you put the core to, given A. the Coalition's lack of jumpships and B. it's small size.

Which is to say for B. I can see a very good argument for not wanting to find something so valuable that say, it puts them on the Radar of the Taurians, the Capellans, or worst of all, Comstar.

[Frabby]

The data core isn't mentioned in the Arano Housebook as far as I recall, so it isn't a concern in main BT canon.

Within the HBS computer game continuity, you can handwave it in the same way as you handwave a third rate periphery merc unit in the boondocks having assault 'Mechs or salvaging the Argo to flight status.

That said, the data is probably very outdated. Lostech caches may be a staple of BT fiction, but the SLDF had no reason to forget such caches and leave them behind; I‘d expect all those bases to have been cleared out and sealed by the SLDF before they left.
Heck, in this region of space you're more likely to find forgotten caches of Amaris, the Taurians, the Canopians, and the Capellans (in this order) than SLDF.

[Colt Ward]

They left some very vague hints, but since the PCs in the book were not the mercs it does not really matter IMO.

Additionally, I would not expect the map to have any bases but the ones around the MOC/TC area it was operating.

[dgorsman]

Or the list was generated from an SLDF intelligence operation.  Just enough known and "public secret" locations to make it look real with the rest carefully curated fakes.  Leak it out, see where the information turns up.

[RifleMech]

The SLDF didn't take everything. There's the facilities on Outreach, there's Camelot Command, there's the storage facility on Helm among others. So there could still be bases left to find. What they contain and how useful it would be though could be anything. 

I think known facilities would have been taken over by locals or long since stripped of anything useful. That said, there could still be hidden areas left to discover.  After all if there can be lost areas on Hesperus II there could certainly be lost areas in abandoned bases. And they can vary from a closet to a hanger bay to an entire underground facility.

[RunandFindOut]

Given that RL I've seen actual military facilities find entire lost warehouses that they'd accidentally built around till they were inaccessible then forgotten.  On bases still in use with the new warehouses around the 'lost' warehouse still in use right next to it.  I am absolutely willing to believe that the SLDF can have just left behind facilities with bunches of stuff in them.  I've seen things like that happen.  I've been to entire office buildings that the Federal government decided were no longer needed and just locked up and left for a decade or two and the responsible party who owned the facility forgot it was even there in under a decade and only rediscovered it when the contracted landscaping and maintenance company handling upkeep billed them extra for repairs after a storm.

So when you've got the SLDF with millions upon millions of personnel scattered across hundreds of worlds with the full extent of their facilities probably unknown even to them over a period of centuries?  Absolutely they'll loose stuff.  I wouldn't be surprised if there are still boneyards of mothballed hardware decommissioned after the Reunification War patiently waiting for reactivation all over the Inner Sphere that had been forgotten about before the Star League even fell just through sheer age and lost records.

[Adventwolf]

Most would have been stripped during the fighting in the periphery when the SLDF got word of the coup. Not all of them of course and the Data Core with the locations would have been kept as one of the biggest secrets the Coalition would have. That means the source book which is a report from the MoC and even says in the report we do not know everything or are we completely certain what we know is true means the Coalition has managed to keep the existence of the core a secret. After all no one knows where the Atlas II came from which means no one would know about the core.

[Ursus Maior]

Given that RL I've seen actual military facilities find entire lost warehouses that they'd accidentally built around till they were inaccessible then forgotten. 

[...]

I wouldn't be surprised if there are still boneyards of mothballed hardware decommissioned after the Reunification War patiently waiting for reactivation all over the Inner Sphere that had been forgotten about before the Star League even fell just through sheer age and lost records.

This. And it gets more likely and absurd, the bigger and more inaccessible the area is over which gear and sites were spread out.

[Colt Ward]

I mean, think of it . . . we had a story a few years back where they unearthed Spitfires that were still in shipping state in Burma?  They found a German tank, WWII AA gun and other weapons hidden away in a villa a few years back.  I know someone talked about finding tanks put in storage post WWII on a US base in W Germany- they were only found b/c the bunker was being cleared as part of the pull out.

Soldiers IMO tend to be packrats on the basis you never know if Supply is going to actually give you something when you want/need it.  My old unit had several examples of this in a 8x10 section room . . . at some point the Army had gone to fiberglass camo net spreaders . . . we still had one bag of the aluminum system (just in case) that was off the books.  We had a WWII/Korea era field telephone system (never used until a mickey mouse 1SG wanted to play Army) which had apparently been replaced because it was a 'torture device' . . . used WAY more for practical jokes from what I heard- wiring up the porta-john seat for example.  Heck, we had a ruggedized shipping box back there that sat in a corner when I got there- we never messed with it until cleaning the room up for a inspection (tar from the roof being re-pitched had leaked through on it.  Cracked it open and discovered a whole new set of camo nets that was off the books- they may have gone back to Desert Storm (14-15 years) when they got re-issued for field loss, but the unit had a 100% personnel turn over in the space of 2 years.

[glitterboy2098]

periphery sites would especially be likely to still be waiting around, IMO. sites in the inner sphere would likely have been stumbled over much quicker, unless the site had been actively hidden from everyone like with the Helm site. but the periphery sites are likely going to be on worlds few people have reason to visit, or have any real record of. and while i do suspect that a lot were stripped by the SLDF headed inwards to fight amaris, i also think that a lot would be left behind at those sites.. after all, the units only had so much supply cubage aboard their dropships and warships, and not everything that would have been stockpiled at those bases in the periphery would have fit, or been needed. this is especially true of any units that stayed put during the civil war to keep the peace, and then were told to evacuate for the exodus. in that later case you can bet they probably left behind mechs, vehicles, ammo, and so on in favor of food and spare parts for the ships.

that said, i doubt the periphery sites would have all that much in the way of the SLDF's really advanced hardware, instead i'd expect to see a lot of their standard grade stuff (that was succession wars or early clan era grade tech equivalents)

[RifleMech]

Was just reading Liberation of Terra and the SLDF had known bases and they had hidden ones. It also said the SLDF troops mobilized to head toward the RWR that they either stripped their bases or secured them against intrusion.  They did this in the Periphery and in the Houses. It also gave an example of what happened to those who tried to force their way in.

I can easily see hidden facilities still being around, although their entrances may no longer exist. Centuries of rebuilding could have easily covered up an entrance. Even if one had a map, finding them could be difficult. I can also see a lot of things buried in rubble or submerged under water. They may or may not be worth the effort of digging them out. That still leaves a lot of material that can be sitting in plain sight or just behind a wall. There's also places out in space for lots of material could be.

I would think that most finds would be Standard Tech or older but lostech items have been found so there could be more out there. There could even be research faculties with prototypes of advanced tech or different/alternative tech, or just bizarre tech.

[Daryk]

Cate's Hold allegedly hosted an SLDF Special Forces base... can't remember where I read that...

[Maelwys]

I'd be interested if you remember where you read that.

[Daryk]

I'll look for it this weekend...

[glitterboy2098]

according to Sarna it was the site of a pre-reunification war Magistracy naval base, which the SLDF occupied after the war.
no mention of special forces on sarna, but given the importance of naval bases, i wouldn't entirely rule out their presence.

i do know that Cawest gave it a spec-ops base in his BT/BSG sidestory, with no mention of whether it was based on something he'd found in a sourcebook or added himself.

[Adventwolf]

If bases and caches are still around they are far more likely to be stocked with fairly standard SLDF equipment. Which is better overall IMO. Getting a prototype or experimental tech would be far beyond the ablity of the Coalition's or really any periphery power's ablity to reverse engineer. While getting standard equipment would give them plenty of examples to work off of and are the easiest to use in order to increase the tech base of the Coalition.

[glitterboy2098]

assuming they even could reverse engineer. standard SLDF gear would be more useful just as supplies for rebuilding.. in many cases they could be easily retrofitted to use standard weapons and armor either right off or as attrition catches up, and the Coalition really just needs replacements for lost units more than fancy tech. i could see them stripping the advanced tech weapons and refitting to the succession wars grade versions for most of the stuff they find, and stockpiling that advanced tech as spare parts for a few advanced mechs.

[Colt Ward]

I do not know, because the other aspect you will have to take into account is Kamea's experiences.  She may be afraid to go after a cache since last time the automated defenses of the cache was extremely dangerous and right on the heels of their arrival a stronger power showed up . . .

So it comes down to . . . will she lose more than she gains trying to open one up?  will the secret get out and her forces gain access only to have the Taurians, Capellans, Feddies, Dracs or others show up to steal the prize?  We already have a scenario IIRC that has some House-backed treasure hunters digging through some tunnels on a Coalition world.

[glitterboy2098]

true. it might be easier for them to barter the data for supplies and support.. selling the location of sites near the magistracy in exchange for funds or military shipments for example. let others take the risk of excavating the sites, and turn the info itself into political capital.

[Adventwolf]

They would be able to reverse engineer the standard technology. Despite the lowering tech level that everyone is suffering from research can and still is being done. Unless the cache only has a very small amount of the equipment they would have enough examples that they can do the research on them without worrying about destroying their only sample.

As for selling the locations. That has the problem that the moment it is done the secret is out that the Coalition has a core. That means they get killed by everyone to get the rest. The only option is to keep it secret and only go after a cache when they can keep it hidden. Which if they don't go around using a bunch of SLDF mechs is fairly easy to do. Especially if they use most of the equipment to aid in research or only refitting their current units.

[Daryk]

The original Periphery book only mentions "caches of Star League equipment", so that wasn't it... I'll keep looking...

[Korzon77]

There's also the thought of a junkyard--which is to say, the SLDF even during the Amaris conflict, probably had a far different view of "irrecoverable" than the modern era where even major powers struggle to keep up with attrition.

[RifleMech]

They would be able to reverse engineer the standard technology. Despite the lowering tech level that everyone is suffering from research can and still is being done. Unless the cache only has a very small amount of the equipment they would have enough examples that they can do the research on them without worrying about destroying their only sample.

As for selling the locations. That has the problem that the moment it is done the secret is out that the Coalition has a core. That means they get killed by everyone to get the rest. The only option is to keep it secret and only go after a cache when they can keep it hidden. Which if they don't go around using a bunch of SLDF mechs is fairly easy to do. Especially if they use most of the equipment to aid in research or only refitting their current units.

They could probably figure out how to make one. Being able to come up with the materials though might be a problem. Mass production would be another.

They could go after the bases in an undercover op. Pose as a lostech prospector who uncovered a map to a base and hire some mercs for a percentage of what's found.

There's also the thought of a junkyard--which is to say, the SLDF even during the Amaris conflict, probably had a far different view of "irrecoverable" than the modern era where even major powers struggle to keep up with attrition.

They used to scrap mechs pretty easily. During the fighting with Amaris though I think that would have changed. They couldn't replace mechs as easily then so what once would have been scrapped is now rebuilt.

[Colt Ward]

Sure, but Korzon would be referring to something out in the Periphery . . . would Kerensky send a convoy back to the TC area to recover a battalion's worth of wrecks sitting out in a desert on a old SLDF base world somewhere?  Sure they had their engines, gyros, weapons, and targeting computers ripped out besides being broken/shot up . . . but would he have bothered with such a collection of husks put into storage knowing it would be months before the hulks could arrive?

[Kovax]

The more likely scenario would be a couple of bases that were stripped of anything "useful", then sealed and abandoned.  The "less useful" stuff left behind for lack of space to haul it could still have a fair amount of value, but might not be worth a return trip for the SLDF.  With the scarcity resulting from the Succession Wars, that "less useful" stuff could have become worth quite a bit.

The question comes down to: (1) was the place looted of everything else afterward by the locals or lostech prospectors, and (2) is it worth the risk of trying to get to it without someone else owning the planet or any automated defensive systems making it a bad idea.

Letting out the knowledge of the existence of the core itself would most likely be a very bad idea.  You can't easily negotiate a trade for something that you don't even dare reveal that you own, lest someone take it by force (whether by assassination, theft, or outright invasion).

[RifleMech]

Sure, but Korzon would be referring to something out in the Periphery . . . would Kerensky send a convoy back to the TC area to recover a battalion's worth of wrecks sitting out in a desert on a old SLDF base world somewhere?  Sure they had their engines, gyros, weapons, and targeting computers ripped out besides being broken/shot up . . . but would he have bothered with such a collection of husks put into storage knowing it would be months before the hulks could arrive?

Since Kerensky didn't empty out the facility on Helm I doubt he'd go back to pick up some wrecks.  Then again, if there were something that was valuable or useful for the Exodus, more so that even fully operational mechs, and it was only found in the Periphery I can see Kerensky sending someone to go get it.

[Frabby]

The SLDF under Kerensky was fighting a tough war of attrition in the Periphery Uprising. This is not your peacetime SLDF that misplaces stuff; this is an army depleted for fighting machines and supplies much like the later Succession Wars era setting, minus the lostech.
I find it hard to believe they would not have pressed any serviceable hardware into service to begin with. (I seem to recall a notion somewhere that the SLDF in the periphery ended up cannibalizing their own units to keep at least a part of them operational, and were seriously depleted for war material.)

And then the Amaris Coup happened. Kerensky, already pretty much without support, had a new war on his hands. So he consolidated his worn-out forces, left behind what he couldn't use (which means it was in a state where nobody could use it anymore), and left to conquer the RWR. In preparation for this moving out, he made peace with the periphery and even bargained war material for supplies. Again, this isn't a situation where any appreciable amount of material would be overlooked as they packed up. They were desperate for any equipment they could find.

[RifleMech]

The SLDF under Kerensky was fighting a tough war of attrition in the Periphery Uprising. This is not your peacetime SLDF that misplaces stuff; this is an army depleted for fighting machines and supplies much like the later Succession Wars era setting, minus the lostech.
I find it hard to believe they would not have pressed any serviceable hardware into service to begin with. (I seem to recall a notion somewhere that the SLDF in the periphery ended up cannibalizing their own units to keep at least a part of them operational, and were seriously depleted for war material.)

And then the Amaris Coup happened. Kerensky, already pretty much without support, had a new war on his hands. So he consolidated his worn-out forces, left behind what he couldn't use (which means it was in a state where nobody could use it anymore), and left to conquer the RWR. In preparation for this moving out, he made peace with the periphery and even bargained war material for supplies. Again, this isn't a situation where any appreciable amount of material would be overlooked as they packed up. They were desperate for any equipment they could find.

And yet we have the the facility on Helm filled with Battlemechs. I also don't recall reading anything about him bargaining for war supplies with the Periphery. Just that he ordered a cease fire with the Periphery Realms. Except for the RWR which he attacked to gain supplies because he knew he couldn't get them from other sources. Liberation of Terra I also says that bases were stripped or secured against entry. That tells me some equipment was left behind during the Civil War. Later on Kerensky still left equipment on Helm even though he was grabbing everything else including every Mackie he could find. If he left alll Battlemechs on Helm he's not going to go all the way out to the Periphery to empty out bases there. So either things were forgotten or he deliberately left things for the divisions staying behind.

[Colt Ward]

True Frabby, but you run up against a specific problem that can occur in wartime- the people with the compartmentalized information end up dead or get drafted to fill in gaps other places.  It can cause a situation where command does not know what they do not know- which with gear being stashed off the books can cause a problem.  Remember that story about the tanks found deep in the bunker?  SOMEONE put them there, but then that person either misfiled the paperwork, paperwork got lost, or . . . the paperwork was never filed in the first place b/c they were extras retained after WWII.  Now, all the people involved think they are known about and/or recorded . . . they then sign off on the inventory when they hand their duties over to someone else- signing over buildings & inventories is a big chore and usually the larger the pile is, the less likely someone is to inspect it all.

So easy scenario . . . division gets called up by Kerensky from Random Periphery 1 sending a warship/JS/DS task force that can transport all the division's combat personnel, three quarters of their support staff, and a limited number of supplies (basically 2 or 3 units of fire plus sundries) but cannot take say a battalion of machines.  All the satellite bases send the most sensitive items- weapons, ammo, comms, computers, documents, and more- back to the main base which still leaves rations, butt-wipe, laundry, etc.  Seriously, look at what happens when a base is closed down and then imagine that as part of a emergency operation.  The satellite bases- which can be regional garrisons, training range quarters/motorpool, or anything in between-  lock up anything they leave behind with instructions for the local police to respond to alarms.  The whole division's equipment would be sorted with the most problematic machines or the ones in/needing refit being left behind.  The support staff that stays behind would be working on them and base security would be tasked to keep all the sensitive items secure.

If the support staff had to rejoin Kerensky using civil transport, then I would expect them to disable as much as possible they could not take with them- easiest way is to remove the HD that controls the movement of the mech, basically what the neurohelmet talks to for moving.  Mechs and armor might be put in ammo bunker's lowest levels with the entrances collapsed to keep people out.

One important thing to remember, as the SLDF was re-deploying from their bases across human space to go after Aramis, they expected to return to the pre-coup life.  Star League officers expected to the bases and depots they were leaving . . . its only as time went on and senior officers saw the SLDF & Kerensky abandoned did they start taking measures for area/material denial.

I honestly think Helm was one of those orphaned commands.  Loss of links in the chain of command above the base, maybe left off the distribution of codes & other encrypted communication . . . so it did not matter the CO was sending messages to the SLDF, his intended recipients were glowing radiated embers and the back-up channels ignored the messages since they never made it through the filters since they were not in the latest codes.

[Adventwolf]

So long as the AC is careful. They can make great use of information on the core. Even older and less advanced equipment would help to improve the AC tech base. The SLDF would have left older or logistically difficult units behind when they went back to the IS to fight.

[Colt Ward]

So one other IRL application . . . pre-staged equipment.  I want to say at one point in the Cold War the US had equipment staged at Diego Garcia for a larger armored formation.  I know they had equipment staged in Saudi Arabia after Desert Storm so forces could rapidly re-deploy from stateside if the balloon went up.

As the Reunification was wrapping up and troops shifting from one theater to another, it would be easier to put primitive and early model mechs into storage and transfer the troops to meet up with the latest upgraded equipment as part of the refit & rest period before plunging into the fires of the theater they transferred to fight.  When did the Star League convert to single-design battalions & regiments?  Especially with the military-industrial complex theories about the SL procurement, they are not going to want the replaced mechs shipped back (remember Lord of War's line about selling M-16s by the pound!) since its all about the SL buying new stuff.

Heh, would observers really be able to notice that Wolverines, Shadow Hawks, Dervish, Archers, Thunderbolt, Riflemen, Wasps or Griffins were primitive?  They would just write off the lesser performance IMO to being in the typical Periphery poor state of repair/operation . . . finding Icarus, BattleAxe, Alfar, Firebee, or Swordmen would raise way more questions.

[glitterboy2098]

honestly the biggest advantage i think they'd get from digging up those old site would be the support equipment.. even if the mechs and vehicles left behind were largely useless, the sites would still have supplies of tools, maintenance gear, mechbay assemblies, and other stuff that the AC could salvage and use to maintain their own army and bases.

[Adventwolf]

Yep that is the major advantage of going to the sites. Not the weapons but all the support systems that are needed to improve the infrastructure of the AC. Like the Argo specifically had manufacturing systems that produced better quality gear than the TC.

[Colt Ward]

Or the Argo's advanced Mech Bay Repair support . . . I want to say the House Arano book was talking about how long/hard it was to put the regular forces back together from the damaged remains.

[Adventwolf]

From what I gathered it was more that they simply didn't have the full amount to rebuild. Most of the Taurian vehicles sent to help the Directorate was salvageable. Getting the equipment for maintaining and supporting forces from the Caches would be the thing the AC needs to expand its Mechanized Infantry forces into larger formations with heavier firepower. Getting that support structure built up would also allow the AC to reactivate several of the defenses and fortifications that were left behind when the stronger powers withdrew.

[RifleMech]

I can totally see there being lost caches of Primitive and other early mechs. Outdated and damaged Mechs could easily be put into storage to wait for shipment back to the factory to be scrapped or rebuilt. It wouldn't need to be just mechs either but any unit or even just tech items. X unit gets a refit kit to replace their Prototype equipment and end up with a warehouse full of BAP-P and TAG-P.

[Daryk]

The original Periphery book only mentions "caches of Star League equipment", so that wasn't it... I'll keep looking...

I've been through all the books I can think of, and haven't found it.  The "SLDF caches" will be enough for my game, at least.

[Adventwolf]

Not even sure it would be primitive tech or even mechs. These caches were the ones that were remembered by someone that decided to hide it on the Argo. That means that it shouldn't be all just a bunch of junk or extremely old tech. Plus like was already said mechs are not what the AC will want from these caches it is the support equipment and infrastructure that they can build and help support that is the greatest price. The AC has an overall technology rating of C (Moderately Advanced world) with several worlds at D (Lower tech world). They need to increase that level as much as possible. Plus the increased production and level of tech would quiet alot of the issues they are dealing with post-war. Even 2 years after the Restoration war was completed they were still struggling and the 4th SW was about to kick off.

[glitterboy2098]

honestly it probably wasn't "caches" at all, but rather an up to date map (as of the Argo's launch) of the star league bases and facilities within the periphery. meant to let the crew of the ship know where they can seek assistance or support if they got in trouble. only no one on the Argo's crew expected the star league to fall, or the bases to be abandoned.

knowing where to find those old sites would be a start on finding any caches the SLDF left behind when they bugged out, but wouldn't guarantee finding anything.

[Adventwolf]

honestly it probably wasn't "caches" at all, but rather an up to date map (as of the Argo's launch) of the star league bases and facilities within the periphery. meant to let the crew of the ship know where they can seek assistance or support if they got in trouble. only no one on the Argo's crew expected the star league to fall, or the bases to be abandoned.

knowing where to find those old sites would be a start on finding any caches the SLDF left behind when they bugged out, but wouldn't guarantee to find anything.

Except that the map is dated from right before the Vandenberg Uprising after the Argo went missing and it wasn't just bases it was every location that the SLDF operated from and their supply points as well. It was also full of secret locations that had no public records of there being any there. It also needed a piece of specialized equipment in order to open the core. There was nothing on the Argo that could access it in the first place so it wasn't something that the crew knew about.

[Ursus Maior]

So one other IRL application . . . pre-staged equipment.  I want to say at one point in the Cold War the US had equipment staged at Diego Garcia for a larger armored formation.  I know they had equipment staged in Saudi Arabia after Desert Storm so forces could rapidly re-deploy from stateside if the balloon went up.

I think that only startedlate in the Cold War, if at all, with Army Prepositioned Stock (APS-3 in Diego Garcia: https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/agency/army/aps-3.htm). These stocks were already in place in the early 1990s (cf. Gulf War Air Power Survey: Logistics and support, 1993: https://books.google.de/books?id=z5N4P82gvboC&pg=PA46&lpg=PA46&dq=diego+garcia+pomcus&source=bl&ots=9c4U6YOp9g&sig=ACfU3U3X-5oFjLYzPnpZ39MTuvlOWszSHw&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjbmfGty4fmAhUHyqQKHcjFC1MQ6AEwAHoECB8QAQ#v=onepage&q=diego%20garcia%20pomcus&f=false), but I'm not certain they had been established before the the Gulf War in 1991. Back in the late 1990s APS-3 used 17 ships in Diego Garcia, earlier that decade the count was less, more like 10-12.

I'm not certain if APS-3 is still in place, but it was apparently in 2012 and expected to run at least until 2020 (cf. https://www.army.mil/article/87899/aps_3_army_strategic_flotilla_rebuild_complete_meets_2020_strategy). A lot has changed in the last years, though.

I can totally see that for the SLDF. You evacuate an area, but know it could heat up any time again. So you preposition materiel for a division or two on a moon in a system close to a potential flashpoint, seal the bunker shut, and tell your corps of engineers to make a mark on the map. Then the exodus happens, and no one is there to remember that particular bunker on the far side of a moon no one cares about.

[Colt Ward]

Yup, or you just do it with equipment that gets replaced . . .

"Hey, we just got this new shipment of Warhammer 7As to replace our old Warhammer 6Rs- what you want to do with the old ones?"

"Well, we might need them in the future . . . you know, replace losses if we ever shoot at anyone.  Tell you what, go dig a hole and put them in the bottom of that hole . . . along with the engineers that dig the hole."

"Do what Captain Teach?"

"Sorry, channeling a ancestor . . . "

[Adventwolf]

Especially since while the Star League was a "time of peace" there was plenty of fighting still going on between the Great Houses and even the Terran Hegemony. And the Periphery still would have had a lot of low extensity fighting going on the entire time. That means caches and supplies would have been built up over hundreds of years and quite of few would have slipped through the cracks of the SLDF when the uprising happened and then the coup. With the amount of destruction that occurred few people or things would have a full accounting of where everything was before. Also with tensions increasing majorly before the Uprising happened even more equipment and supplies would have been moved into the Periphery in preparation for the war that was on the Horizon. The Argo was lost just before the uprising happened in 2765 and it was launched in 2762 or 63 that means that before the uprising happened and the ship was lost it got the updated map of where everything was that had been built up and forgotten during the conflict and exodus that followed. 

[RifleMech]

Yup, or you just do it with equipment that gets replaced . . .

"Hey, we just got this new shipment of Warhammer 7As to replace our old Warhammer 6Rs- what you want to do with the old ones?"

"Well, we might need them in the future . . . you know, replace losses if we ever shoot at anyone.  Tell you what, go dig a hole and put them in the bottom of that hole . . . along with the engineers that dig the hole."

"Do what Captain Teach?"

"Sorry, channeling a ancestor . . . "

Now I have this picture in my head of a farmer going out to check on his field and tripping over the barely exposed top of a mech.

[Colt Ward]

Just have to hope the harrow attachment on his Agromech does not strike the warheads resting in the SRM launcher.

[Adventwolf]

Speaking of Industrial Mechs if the AC could find enough support equipment they could add production of Industrial Mechs to their Industry. They already make a lot of agrotech to the point that is a major export. Building Industrial Mechs something that everyone needs but isn't so important that you would get invaded for the factories would be a major boost to the AC tech base and economy.

[Colt Ward]

Pretty sure it came up in another thread (https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=65895.0) and while they are mentioned- you can get a pilot who fights in a IndiMech derby IIRC- its possible one of the mining companies produces their own MiningMechs.  I mean, I support it if you want to retcon Indi's across the universe in your headcanon which is supported by some fiction & BC stories.

[Adventwolf]

Industrial Mechs are being built in-universe they are just not a major focus. And the AC doesn't build anything like that. They build agrotech not mechs. It is their major export to the point it is what they are known for.

[Colt Ward]

One of the mining corporations builds vehicle and mech armor, with the description it seems to me they might build it as well as explaining that bit of fluff from the game.

[Adventwolf]

Yeah they build armor and they build and make all kinds of argotech but there is nothing that points to the AC having a mech factory of any kind. If they did then the TC or the CC never would have left the worlds since a factory that can build mechs of any kind during the secession wars would have never been abandoned. The AC likely has some sort of capacity to build spare parts and equipment but not the ability to build mechs from scratch. The refit yards are just that repair and refit not building things.

[Colt Ward]

Its the nature of RetCon . . . we never hear about any House battling over a world that produces any IndiMech until the Dark Ages.  So the CC or TC invading a world to get their hands on the factory would be a non sequitur.  Whether you think the AC could be building Agro or Mining Mechs all depends on what you view happening in BTU as a whole during the 3SW IMO.  Why didn't they use IndiMechs for war in the 3SW (except guerillas did in the beginning trilogy)?  Same reason none of the Houses were building primitives . . . b/c they did not exist at the time of the fluff . . . BUT the last Stackpole books about the start of the Kell Hounds did have them using ultralights and non-standard stuff so maybe that is being addressed.  You can also look at the fluff on stuff like the security mechs (like Inquisitor) that existed in 3SW.

Personally, IF I was playing a strategic campaign with the AC, I would have them building IndiMechs- Agro & Mining, with mods of the two basic types for Forestry and Construction.  IE, the mining company sells a MiningMech and another company makes a after market mod kit that can turn it into a ConstructionMech (not as good as purpose built design) that works pretty well for large scale construction.  But if they DO build IndiMechs they are going to be one of the most primitive things around- fancy IndiMechs are built/used by the Inner Sphere- ONLY ICE engine machines, commercial grade components (maybe after market with milspec armor) open/unsealed cockpits, and anything else to make it the least efficient IndiMech.

[Adventwolf]

I have no idea why you keep going back to the idea that the AC builds mechs of any kind. And yes the CC and TC would have never left the worlds which were theirs before the AC was ever a thing. Because guess what those factories were taken during the SW and they were converted or disassembled for parts for Battlemech factories. The AC has no production of mechs that is a fact both from the game and the source book. What they do have is the production of agrotech you know agricultural technology. That is their main export and claim to fame and power in the periphery they are the best farmers around. I don't  really get your obsession with them already having industrial mechs being made when there is nothing to back it up. And this has nothing to do with retcons or headcanon this is what is stated and shown.

[RifleMech]

Just have to hope the harrow attachment on his Agromech does not strike the warheads resting in the SRM launcher.

It'd be one heck of a harvest.

Speaking of Industrial Mechs if the AC could find enough support equipment they could add production of Industrial Mechs to their Industry. They already make a lot of agrotech to the point that is a major export. Building Industrial Mechs something that everyone needs but isn't so important that you would get invaded for the factories would be a major boost to the AC tech base and economy.

Actually, IndustrialMechs and their factories were cannibalized for parts to keep BattleMechs running so a mech factory of any sort would be a target. Not that a Periphery planet needs a mech factory to be a target.

I have no idea why you keep going back to the idea that the AC builds mechs of any kind. And yes the CC and TC would have never left the worlds which were theirs before the AC was ever a thing. Because guess what those factories were taken during the SW and they were converted or disassembled for parts for Battlemech factories. The AC has no production of mechs that is a fact both from the game and the source book. What they do have is the production of agrotech you know agricultural technology. That is their main export and claim to fame and power in the periphery they are the best farmers around. I don't  really get your obsession with them already having industrial mechs being made when there is nothing to back it up. And this has nothing to do with retcons or headcanon this is what is stated and shown.

Agrotech is pretty vague. As such it could include AgroMechs. Or it could just include some parts and assembly.. I think it's up to the players if they want it to include industrial Mech factories or not.

[Adventwolf]

Except that the Source book tells you exactly what Agrotech is and what the AC is selling and producing from it. Not mechs of any kind. So no it isn't up to the players to decide. It is said clear as day what Agrotech is.

[RifleMech]

Except that the Source book tells you exactly what Agrotech is and what the AC is selling and producing from it. Not mechs of any kind. So no it isn't up to the players to decide. It is said clear as day what Agrotech is.

You'll have to tell me where it is then cause I can't find it. 

[Adventwolf]

You'll have to tell me where it is then cause I can't find it.

Page 22 of the source book where they specifically talk about the AC Socioeconomic breakdown, their major industries and companies. Also made a mistake it is called agritech.

[RifleMech]

Thanks. :)  However I don't see where it excludes IndustrialMechs. Like I said, Agritech is pretty vague. It could be every thing from hand tools to AgroMechs.

[glitterboy2098]

Mech manufacturing is almost always mentioned in sourcebooks. So I highly doubt agromech. More likely conventional tractors, combines, tillers, harvesters, etc.
Vitally important to agriculture but much easier to build than mech of any kind.

[Adventwolf]

It is all of those plus genemod crop seeds, agricultural schools, compact fertilizer, pesticide synthesizers, agronomy (low-level terraforming), and farming technologies. But nothing like a industrial mech factory. Which is why finding any kind of support equipment from the Caches would be a major boon. It would allow the AC to enhance their established industries and if they are lucky they can use the equipment to set up some sort of mech factory for industrial mechs. Which is something they need more than battlemechs or military technology. The AC is technologically inferior to its neighbors and needs something to boost its production and tech base in order to survive.

[RifleMech]

Mech manufacturing is almost always mentioned in sourcebooks. So I highly doubt agromech. More likely conventional tractors, combines, tillers, harvesters, etc.
Vitally important to agriculture but much easier to build than mech of any kind.

Not necessarily. House Stiener Sourcebooks mentions Rastaban Agricultural but not that they build IndustrialMechs. I can't find Ericksson-Agro in it or the Kurita House Book even though Verthandi was owned by both and had a agromech factory. We don't even have stats for the agromech that was made there.

It is quite possible its just parts. Then again they could be building a couple a year. We don't know because the book doesn't say. I did say I thought it could be up to the players. After all, we do have the planet Spencer with the Panhard Academy of Industrial Science, andits IndustrialMech Pilot Training facilities. If an unaffiliated Periphery planet can have a science academy with mech pilot training it isn't unreasonable to think that a planet with unspecified agricultural manufacturing couldn't build an agromech.

[Adventwolf]

Not necessarily. House Stiener Sourcebooks mentions Rastaban Agricultural but not that they build IndustrialMechs. I can't find Ericksson-Agro in it or the Kurita House Book even though Verthandi was owned by both and had a agromech factory. We don't even have stats for the agromech that was made there.

It is quite possible its just parts. Then again they could be building a couple a year. We don't know because the book doesn't say. I did say I thought it could be up to the players. After all, we do have the planet Spencer with the Panhard Academy of Industrial Science, andits IndustrialMech Pilot Training facilities. If an unaffiliated Periphery planet can have a science academy with mech pilot training it isn't unreasonable to think that a planet with unspecified agricultural manufacturing couldn't build an agromech.

They don't mention Indutrial mechs because until the Helm Memeory core they were so rare that even Assualt mechs were more common. The Sorce books also only talk about major assets which industrial mechs do not fall under.

And the part you seem to be missing or ignoring is that any industrial mech factory that was in the AC would have been stripped by either the Capellans or the Taurians a long time ago. It is not up to the players at all. The book tells you exactly what they produce and nowhere is there anything that even hints at an industrial mech of any kind. And that planet with an Academy so what that means and proves nothing. Industrial mechs are easy to pilot they don't need much training at all.

[Colt Ward]

Not even close to the target . . . outside of the post-Jihad Objective Raids series, which STILL avoided a lot of specifics, the writers go out of their way in materials to avoid saying anything is specifically produced at a location and avoid numbers.  Its not like the entry says 'the largest thing they make is a tractor, and only 100 of them a year.'

. . . the oligarchs, who collaborated to make
the Capellans wrongly believe the world was an economic
quagmire and its industry a lost cause. When those governors
departed, the world continued as before under the direct
control of the oligarchs. As the supplier of most of the
manufactured goods and technology to the region . . .

And under Mechdur-
. . . home to most of the major
manufacturing centers of the region, ranging
from consumer goods to ’Mech weaponry.
The planet features three different major
spaceports, one on each of its continents, as
well as a recharging station at the nadir jump
point of its star supported by a number of
space stations for travelers and merchants.

Pretty sure with a C/C/A/B/B rating it has the ability to produce IndiMechs that are more primitive than 'Mech weaponry.

Its not going to come out and say it, but if for your game you want Mechdur to build some 20-30t crappy IndiMech . . . then it can . . . if you do not want it to build one?  Well, it does not then.

[Adventwolf]

Industrial Mech factories use the same tech and materials that normal Battlemech factories use. And it is very established that those factories were stripped for the Battlemech factories. A C level technology rating is not high enough to rebuild any factory that might have existed in the AC. Not even the Great Houses or the major periphery powers can rebuild factories. So how would you expect the AC to do so with a lower technology base than any of those.

[Colt Ward]

Industrial Mech factories use the same tech and materials that normal Battlemech factories use. And it is very established that those factories were stripped for the Battlemech factories. A C level technology rating is not high enough to rebuild any factory that might have existed in the AC. Not even the Great Houses or the major periphery powers can rebuild factories. So how would you expect the AC to do so with a lower technology base than any of those.

I hate the tech ratings, I always want to flip them with A being best and F being worse, my mental block on that strikes again I guess.

Uh no, commercial armor, cockpit, etc are not the same materials as go into battlemechs.  Its also a ICE using design so it avoids the big hurdle in maintaining let alone producing battlemechs.  Further, it was supposed by . . . glitter? . . . that it could merely be a assembly point mating up home grown components with any shipped in from neighbors.  The AC builds mech scale weapons and armor- which is more valuable than somewhere that produces commercial gyros or ICE engines for a House, yet those places are not sacked to be stripped.  Either their production is so minor, the Houses/TC do not know about it, or it is not deemed worth the expense (getting back to low production) to travel that far to take something.

You are also using old sources . . . current materials, as indicated earlier, have IndiMechs existing and being built all during the Succession Wars.  The Kell Hounds Ascendant books had them using ultras or Indis to supplement their mech forces.  TRO VA talks about how various models of IndiMechs- including Security designs- were in production during the Succession Wars which is supported by other products like TP Irian which covered the Inquisitor Mk II, and update of the original that was started in the SW.

The AC IndiMech at best would be all commercial grade components (ICE engine, cockpit, gyro, etc) with perhaps BM-spec armor.

[RifleMech]

There are Battlemechs being built by hand. There's no reason a planet with factories can't built and assemble an IndustrialMech. Especially not when they're already making BattleMech parts.

I would also question the planets tech rating. If the rating isn't high enough, how can it make Mech armor with is Tech Level D?

And yes, many IndustrialMechs and their factories were cannibalized for parts. However, that does not mean all were. Verthandi was still manufacturing Agromechs when the Gray Death Legion helped liberate the planet. And that's just one example. So there's no reason the AC couldn't be making AgroMechs of their own.

Unless there's an errata or something that says, "No, they can't." I'm going to believe that it's up the GM and players. If we want them to make AgroMechs, they can make AgroMechs. If not, they don't.

[Adventwolf]

The tech level is the https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Universal_Socio-Industrial_Index_Rating for a  Moderately advanced world. Not the technology availability rating.

[RifleMech]

Yes, and if they can mass produce some Tech Level D items there's no reason to think they would't have limited production of other items.

[Maingunnery]

Mech manufacturing is almost always mentioned in sourcebooks. So I highly doubt agromech. More likely conventional tractors, combines, tillers, harvesters, etc.
Vitally important to agriculture but much easier to build than mech of any kind.

Perhaps Primitive Agromech?

[Adventwolf]

No RilfeMech The C level is something completely different from the tech level of equipment. It is the overall level of each part of the planet's development relative to its population. A C level is a moderately advanced world that means they have access to most technology but nothing that would make them special. And considering that every world in the AC is a C level or a D level which is lower-tech world level that makes it highly unlikely that they managed to build a mech factory of any kind. If there were mech factories of any kind on any of the AC worlds then when the TC or CC left they would have stripped them for parts to repair other factories instead. Maybe the oligarchs managed to hide that they had a factory but since this was during the SW where the ability to build new factories didn't exist I find it unlikely to be the case. If there are damaged or shut down factories which is possible since a damaged factory would simply be left alone then the materials from any Cache that the AC gets would be a major factor in getting them running again. Since while the can't build new ones they can repair factories back to some level of operation even during the SW.

[RifleMech]

And yet they can manufacture mech weapons and armor which they shouldn't be able to with that rating. And again, if a BattleMech can be made by hand, why couldn't an IndustrialMech?

[Daryk]

If we're going to talk about what the USIIR levels mean, maybe we should actually quote the table, eh?

From Handbook: House Steiner, page 71:

UNIVERSAL SOCIO-INDUSTRIAL LEVEL REFERENCE TABLE

TECHNOLOGICAL SOPHISTICATION
Rating Description
A High-tech world. Advanced research centers and universities; best medical care; cutting-edge microelectronics industry
B Advanced world. Access to many new technologies; hosts universities; good medical care available (though lacking in most cutting-edge medical tech); basic microelectronics industry
C Moderately advanced world. Average local education and medical care; minimal microelectronics industry (must be imported for sale)
D Lower-tech world. Poor educational system; medical care equivalent to 21st-22nd century level; nonexistent microelectronics industry (except for possible isolated companies run by private concerns)
F Primitive world. Inhabitants live without dependence on technology; no advanced education; medical care equivalent to 20th century level (at best)

INDUSTRIAL DEVELOPMENT
Rating Description
A Heavily industrialized. Capable of manufacturing any and all complex products
B Moderately industrialized. May produce a limited quantity and range of complex products
C Basic heavy industry. Equivalent to roughly 22nd century tech; fusion technology possible, but no complex products (including BattleMechs)
D Low industrialization. Roughly equivalent to mid-20th century level; fusion technology must be imported
F No industrialization

RAW MATERIAL DEPENDENCE
Rating Description
A Fully self-sufficient. System produces all needed raw materials and may export in large quantities
B Mostly self-sufficient. System produces all needed raw materials and may export a small surplus
C Self-sustaining. System produces some of its needed raw materials and imports the rest
D Dependent. System is poor in raw materials and must import most of its material needs
F Heavily dependent. System utterly reliant on imported materials to maintain industry and population

INDUSTRIAL OUTPUT
Rating Description
A High output. World has wide industrial and commercial base capable of exporting most of its output
B Good output. World’s industrial and commercial bases sufficient for modest product export
C Limited output. World has a small industrial base which limits exports; imported goods common
D Negligible output. World’s industrial base insufficient for major exports; reliant on imported goods
F No output. World must import most—if not all—of its heavy industrial and high-tech needs

AGRICULTURAL DEPENDENCE
Rating Description
A Breadbasket. Planetary agro industries meet all local needs and sustain a thriving export trade
B Abundant world. Rich agricultural environment sustains local needs and permits limited exports
C Modest agriculture. Most food locally produced, though some agricultural needs rely on imports
D Poor agriculture. Minimal agricultural output forces heavy reliance on off-world imports to sustain the local population
F “Barren” world. Agricultural output cannot sustain the local population without continuous off-world imports

It seems to me the debate is really about how "complex" industrial 'mechs are.  Personally, I'm good with them being "22nd century" tech short of battlemechs.  What I find most hilarious is that "fusion technology possible, but no complex products" is at Industrial Development level C.  Once you put fusion engines in the "not complex" bin (as the rules have), that opens up quite a bit.

[Adventwolf]

And yet they can manufacture mech weapons and armor which they shouldn't be able to with that rating. And again, if a BattleMech can be made by hand, why couldn't an IndustrialMech?

No they would be able to build those things with a rating of C that was the point. And building Battlemechs by hand where are you getting that from? They repair and salvage from parts but building one from scratch with the frame and all its components wouldn't be possible with a factory. And as for why if a Battlemech can be built by hand it is worth the time and effort because it is such a major force multiplier an industrialmech on the other hand is that great of a multiplier to justify the time and cost it would take. It is easier and cheaper to build normal machines and vehicles to do the job than an industrial Mech for a place like the AC. Especially if you do it by hand.

[Daryk]

That Rating C means they can build fusion engines.  I'm more than willing to go with Industrial 'Mechs being no more complex than that, especially since they can use ICEs.

[Adventwolf]

That Rating C means they can build fusion engines.  I'm more than willing to go with Industrial 'Mechs being no more complex than that, especially since they can use ICEs.

The issue is would they have any factories for any kind of mech? My entire argument is that since the Industrial Mech factory used a lot of the same equipment and technology as a battlemech factory that it would have been stripped for parts long ago. I also doubt that the AC has the knowledge needed to repair or rebuild a factory let alone build a new one. Which keeps getting ignored and never acknowledged every time I bring it up.

[Daryk]

I think you're assuming more similarity between the two kinds of 'mechs than the rules do.  I can't speak for anyone else though.

[Adventwolf]

I think you're assuming more similarity between the two kinds of 'mechs than the rules do.  I can't speak for anyone else though.

It is straight-up said that the industrial mech factories used similar technology and equipment as the battlemech factories. That is why industrial mechs are so rare until the Helm Memory Core is distributed. It even says that the factories were stripped to get battlemech factories running again. That is the lore of the Industrial mech I am not assuming anything. I am simply telling you what is the information that is given.

[Daryk]

Lore = fluff.  Rules > fluff...

[Robroy]

The factories using similar equipment does not mean they produce the same product. A bulldozer factory and a tank factory are going to have similar equipment, ie. hoist, welders, and tools.

There is also a huge difference in tolerances allowed and reliability expected.

[Daryk]

That too... If you look at the tables, microelectronics are called out specifically, and Industrials need far less of those than anything designed to fire weapons (if any, really). Again, fusion engines are explicitly within their capabilities.

[Adventwolf]

The factories using similar equipment does not mean they produce the same product. A bulldozer factory and a tank factory are going to have similar equipment, ie. hoist, welders, and tools.

There is also a huge difference in tolerances allowed and reliability expected.

I am not saying that they produce the same thing. I am saying that the equipment was stripped to be used at other factories. Since that is what happened to them in the first place. But they lost the ability to build any kind of mech factory. And you can change a bulldozer factory into a tank factory like they said either earlier in this thread or the Thread about weapons production in the AC thread.

[RifleMech]

I am not saying that they produce the same thing. I am saying that the equipment was stripped to be used at other factories. Since that is what happened to them in the first place. But they lost the ability to build any kind of mech factory. And you can change a bulldozer factory into a tank factory like they said either earlier in this thread or the Thread about weapons production in the AC thread.

I'm not talking a factory that can churn out hundreds a week. I'm talking built by hand. All you need for that is material, tools, lifts/hoists, and techs. A MechBay would make it even easier. Having parts imported would speed the process but even though you're not going to see large numbers being made. We're talking a handful or so a year tops.

[Colt Ward]

It is straight-up said that the industrial mech factories used similar technology and equipment as the battlemech factories. That is why industrial mechs are so rare until the Helm Memory Core is distributed. It even says that the factories were stripped to get battlemech factories running again. That is the lore of the Industrial mech I am not assuming anything. I am simply telling you what is the information that is given.

Btw, by the provided tech levels I was thinking of them right lol.

IndiMechs are NOT rare though . . . filled one of the early books (GDL novel), we have TRO VA that describes ones that were existed or built through out the Succession Wars.

Ceres Metals is building the Guard Quad SecurityMech and in enough numbers to export to the DC by 3028.
Alshain/DC starts building the Pacifier in 3031
Coventry was building the CPK-19 since the Star League
Duran exports the Cattlemaster which was started in 3024
Terra produced the Carbine construction mech in 3028
Crosscut series of ForestryMechs, a new Demo model was introduced in 2910
The Buster LoaderMech had 20 different versions produced up till the 21st in 3060, from 15 onward no functional differences till 21
Dig King started in 2571 on Archenar and was produced with variants until replaced by the Dig Lord in 3057
Furillo developed and produced the Lugger SalvageMech before 3050
Scavenger SalvageMech that was built into the Succession Wars ended up armed at various times
and there are more . . .


No one is suggesting Mechdur is Defiance-under-the-Mountain.  What we are suggesting is that since they build- IN FACTORIES- mech spec armor and mech scale weaponry- btw their own armored vehicles too!- the components (myomer, ICE, commercial gyro, commercial armor, commercial structure, commercial cockpits) with maybe some being imported and then assemble them by hand (really just verbage for labor intensive) with some mechanization.  Its not the completely automated Valkyrie factory on New Avalon that churns out hundreds of light mechs a year during the timeframe.  Perhaps one or two a month, which is truly dependent upon the feeder production lines (commercial gyro, ICE engine, cockpit being the critical 3).

The simple reason the production site was never interrupted?  It was not worth the effort by the Houses or other neighbors.  If the IndiMechs are not built by any sort of automation, there is nothing worth taking.

'high tech' AC IndiMechs could have-
Std Internal Structure (used in the 4 vehicles they build)
Std/mech spec armor (clearly said to be produced, used in vehicles)

[Adventwolf]

And I never said that they were not building parts. I never even mentioned anything about their armor or weapons since that wasn't what I was referring to. The only place that should be able to build mechs is the Refit yards at the Capital since that is their job to put parts back together. Nor did I ever say that Industrial mechs were not in use or being built. I said that most of them and their factories (which cannot be rebuilt without the information from the Helm Memory Core) were cannibalized early on in the SWs. And they are rare even with some being built the number of factories left and in operation compared to battlemech factories is much lower. I also stand by my statement that building industrial mechs by hand is not worth the time, effort, or resources when you can use all of those to build normal industrial equipment and materials instead. Nothing any of you have said have changed that since you haven't given any reason so far why it would be worth it.

[Daryk]

My point has been (and remains) that Industrial 'Mechs are no more complex than fusion engines, and thus their "Technological Sophistication" and "Industrial Development" levels support them having the ability to manufacture them.  Whether they do or not is entirely up to individual GMs.

[Adventwolf]

Some parts are can be made but not all of the parts. Some of the parts are similar to those used on battlemechs. That was why they were stripped and cannibalized during the early SW. While the tech would be primitive level for most of them still don't have the factories to build them. If we got the caches then the AC would be able to build most of them by increasing their level up to B.

[Colt Ward]

What parts?  The ICE engine . . . the one they put in the 60t combat vehicle?  The standard internal structure . . . the one they put in the combat vehicle?  Commercial gyro might be the most complicated part we do not know they make, but nothing prevents them from being imported at need . . . and still, it does not need the tolerances Battlemechs require.

Your still trying to use early sources- even those had Indis produced and a different tech level- when current sources talk about it being a toss up of Indis being used for parts or being armed in desperation.  I gave you a short list of Indis that were produced before 3050, and some were created in the midst of the Succession Wars.

Your still talking about them having a facility like Hesperus or the Valkyrie factory . . . what we are suggesting is something closer to the Cronus factory (set up to build by hand from parts in the 3030s!) or later Bandersnatch- no or little automation but lots of bodies sweating with simple hoists & cranes.

[Daryk]

I'm with Colt here... what parts of an Industrial 'Mech are more complex than a fusion engine?  ???

[RifleMech]

You don't need the Helm Memory Core to build or modify a mech factory. A fully automated one, probably but not your average Mech Factory. A destroyed factory in the Outworlds Alliance was rebuilt and produced the Merlin BattleMech in 3010. The Hatcheman was built in 3023 and included completely brand new tech. The Helm Memory Core wasn't discovered until 3028.

Why build industrialmechs over regular vehicles? Why build battlemechs over tanks? Besides the coolness factor and this game is about mechs, mechs can go places vehicles can't. That allows them to work in areas vehicles can't. That makes more land profitable.

As for building by hand, you do it because you don't have a factory. You do it because nobody makes that part anymore. You do it because it'd attract less attention than a factory. You import parts as they'd attract less attention than whole mechs.

[Kovax]

I see no obvious reason why some small company couldn't build a handful or less of Industrials per year, using a mix of low-end domestic parts and imported sub-assemblies.  They'd be a bit on the expensive side relative to their capabilities, but could operate in places and situations where conventional vehicles couldn't.  Basically, they'd be close to entirely hand-built, in miniscule numbers, and only economically practical for mining exotic and valuable raw materials, harvesting high-value specialty hardwoods, or loading cargo at major spaceports.  The limited market for such things means that production would never achieve significant volumes, at least until the information from the Helm memory core had plenty of time to disseminate and lower expenses for such specialized production (as in 20-30 years until the practical effects of the information even begin to reach the Periphery).

Whether someone considers the steep investment and low rate of return worthwhile is up to the GM in your campaign, but it's probably neither impossible nor likely.  For a random chance, I'd probably roll a D6 and if it comes up with a 5, there's some modest workshop hand-building 1D6 units per year; if a 6 comes up, there's a small factory assembling 2D6 annually from a mix of domestic and imported parts, exporting half the production to neighboring planets.  Anything more makes absolutely no economic sense.

[Adventwolf]

So I was talking with some guys in the quest we are in. And we came up to the topic of the mechs that the Argo and company would have in canon at the end. I am of the opinion that only the Highlander and Atlas II would be the only Assualt Mechs they would have since they are still only a company sized group in the periphery.

We are discussing the ability to make more of them and I have stated that it would be the work of decades to get the technology needed to do so. What do you all think is it possible?

This is a crossover by the way we are playing the Helgan Republic from after Millstone 3 that got chucked into Battletech right off the map of the Rimward frontier from the game about 50 LYs "south" of Portland.

[Colt Ward]

Look, you get the parts and you can assemble the mech by hand . . . heck, with a good machine shop you can MAKE the parts by hand.

This goes back to the Clan ER weapons in the 3050s . . . the Clans mass produced their weapons, like the ER Large Lasers.  They had mass produced them for decades.  Shortly after the AFFC captured copies in '50-'52 the NAIS was able to produce their own versions . . . when built by hand, but the cost in man hours was extremely high b/c they lacked the precision automated systems to build the parts.  Only when making each part under the supervision of a craftsman using the highest quality materials and the most precise machines able to complete the most exacting detailed task were they able to replicate the ability.

But it was not economically viable- they could make replacement parts for Prince Victor's Dire Wolf but not enough to supply the whole AFFC.

So yeah, in 3025 a merc company could make their own assault mech if . . .

 . . . they could get engineering schematics and specs- basically, how & material requirements respectively
 . . . they could get the advanced materials to meed the specs (Standard structure has X tensile strength, Y conductivity, and Z melting point)
 . . . they have the machines that can extrude myomer to battlemech standards rather than IndiMech
 . . . they have the dies & machine tools to build the parts
 . . . and they can get the gyro & fusion engine that are the critical parts to get it functioning

[Adventwolf]

This isn't using the about using the mech. Nor is it a mech company that I am talking about. This is about reverse engineering the technology of the mechs from Ferro fibrous armor, the double heat sinks, ER and Pulse lasers, the Gauss rifle from the Highlander.

All of this without access to Helm memory core, NAIS, or any data on just how the stuff works. For the record the Helgan Republic doesn't have even primitive level of Armor, Structure, and the lasers they have made are the size of naval weapons with the power of small and medium lasers. The TC when they found a cache of SLDF equipment and started reverse engineering the armor alone took years of research and they still got left behind by the IS when they got the Helm memory core.

[Colt Ward]

Ever read Turtledove's Worlds at War?  The L1 to L2 is not a revolutionary leap in the technology, its incremental . . . so a good tech can recognize what a piece of the advanced technology can do, how to graft it on to what they possess to get functionality, but cannot always say exactly how the piece of equipment does what it does when functioning.  One of the big pieces they get into some of this with is a radar set in Brit hands.  The Brit who was part of the radar project was wondering where the vacuum tubes where but figured out they were replaced by circuit boards- but not why or how they functioned.  IIRC he also wondered why the radar was mounted where it was with the cavity for focusing the radar beams . . . or how the beam was focused.

The FF armor the TC found is IMO a great example since that is a inert piece of technology it makes it really simple to say what held up its deployment- plain old materials science.  The TC had to figure out how to create the alloys that went into the sandwich layers of the FF armor.  As a example, molybdenum has been involved in steel making over the centuries with evidence that some places making swords ended up with it (as impurities in the regional ore) to produce a superior weapon- molly be damn has higher melting point and a greater hardness (why its used in armor plate) than other types of steel.  Experimentation in its use since discovery in the late 1700s were difficult b/c it did not want to be extracted from its natural compounds, tended to re-crystalize in the metal production processes and caused the final product to be brittle  It was not until before WWI that processes were able to completely separate it and then combine it with steel to create a superior product used in armor and armor piercing applications.  So while the TC might have able to identify most of what went into the FF armor, HOW to get them to combine is still a problem for them to overcome . . . and one of the simplest L1-L2 changes because its applications of the single field, materials development.

[Adventwolf]

I think we are speaking past eachother? Plus the Helgan Republic doesn't even have L1 tech. I am not talking about using what they have on hand I am talking about them taking the limited amount they could get and remaking it to the point of mass production. I am also not talking about the mercenaries at all. Again the Helgan Republic doesn't have any of the technology they have just barely gotten to a prototype of primitive level for armor and structure. Though to be fair they should have primitive level of those by now but screwed up due to the long time between the last two main turns and we forgot that we were at a breakthrough point.

And the Turtledove book yeah I have if it is the one with the lizards that think they are the greatest thing in the universe. Luckily we aren't that mismatched. We are currently in the middle of battle turns with our "unaffiliated" mercenary force of infantry, IFVs, tanks, artillery and fighters. They have done a decent job against a "pirate" raid of a Union, Leopard, and Buccaneer dropship so far. We also have our own advantages. Just that for the most part our units are glass cannons. Also if you want to join you are more than welcome we are on SV. We had a few long hiatus and we lost some players. We could always use more.

[Colt Ward]

I was not addressing the mercenaries either, just that a lower tech base can take and use incremental tech improved equipment from a more advanced tech base.  Like the humans in that story, they can graft it on to their existing base even if they do not understand all of it.  Some can be replicated on a small scale but other pieces of the technology that required a revolutionary change will not- to use the Worlds at War example, the humans could not duplicate the circuit boards of the radar but could create their own display screens and I think copy the form of the magnetron.  Go back to that NAIS building Clan ER lasers, the whole of the AFFC lacks the industrial ability to produce the lasers- tolerances on automated machining, precision of measuring tools, mass production of alloys/composites/polymers of the proper quality, and more- but a collection of scientists and highly skilled engineers can build one by creating the parts and assembling by hand. 

Mass producing a more advanced technology requires the pyramid, you have to know how to build the machines that build the parts & machines you will need to create the final product.  So IMO if you are building primitive designs, and your engineer/tech force is trained to operate on them . . . if you can get standard battlemech armor imported, then you could replace the standard armor on your existing designs and incorporate it into building new units but producing your own standard armor in any sort of mass produced amount will be difficult.  IE, the TC COULD have put that FF armor on mechs after discovering it but they would have wasted a lot of it and not really learned much.

[Adventwolf]

Then you agree because I was not talking about building things by hand. The entire point of our research is mass production. Nor did I say they couldn't do it in small numbers though they can't do that either. Due to lacking anything that is similar to the Battletech materials or production methods used. The Helgan Republic has a completely different tech base to begin with. The biggest advantage is that unlike the rest of the IS we actually know and understand it completely. Plus our computer tech is much better just fragile compared to the bricks Battletech uses. We are trying to equip an entire armies with mechs. And thinking that someone that has never used or made anything like a mech before to be able to do that is wishful thinking at best. And the ER lasers are 12 points of research after we get standard lasers. FF armor is 9 points away from where we are right now. Endo steel is also 9 points away. We get 4 points a turn and those are not the only things we need to research.