Upcoming Releases Volume XV: Pitter Patter Let's Get At'er

[Cubby]

Several copies of 6th printing TW sighted at my flgs along with other books. The response to the boxes must have been encouraging

Nice to hear. Hopefully they move.

[Colt Ward]

Two days left on the KS announced timeframe . . . we going to see the 2nd Founding book before the year rolls over?

[Fat Guy]

Did we see the first?   ???

[Colt Ward]

Nope- and never a real clear answer about the first, but the second was set as a stretch goal to be available by Dec 2019.

[mbear]

That's one of several reasons I prefer digital copies, though one thing I am missing is the ability to have one rulebook link another (eg. if something in strat ops says see page x in tac ops being able to click the page number and open that page of tac ops.).

You can do this in Adobe Acrobat now. IIRC the major problem is you have to use absolute links instead of relative, which means you have to know exactly where the file is located on the drive. Obviously that can change depending on how you organize your files.

[beachhead1985]

Speaking of TROs, any chance of any of the reprints having Scroggin's new art in them instead of the old stuff?
It seems like a HUGE missed opportunity and even a bit of a brand erosion to have nice new minis and art only for players to pick up the TROs being advertised with it, and being greeted with the older stuff.

I get where you're coming from. I really wondered at the time what was up with TRO: SW and CI, with the Nuseen coming out.

I am certain we will see that eventually, but speaking personally; yet *another* retread of old material with revised presentation interests me not at all. Why pay for stuff I already have in a new package? Same reason I did not/will not buy SW/CI.

As an intro product, makes total sense, but...then wasn't SW/CI a pair of sucker's products? Like; "HAHA! You paid for this, but here is THE SAME STUFF with art that makes what you have look like crap!" Like; why even do those products if this was in the pipeline? Especially since we've know this was coming for a while.

Unless you wanted to use THAT as a release to do the side-by-side of the old and new art and use THAT as the opportunity to bridge that gap with an official statement that mechs that look like both sets of art are the same type and share the same battlefields. I'd support the HELL out of that. I really don't think lampshading that one is the ethical way to go, so it needs to be dealt with sooner or later.

[BirdofPrey]

I get where you're coming from. I really wondered at the time what was up with TRO: SW and CI, with the Nuseen coming out.

I am certain we will see that eventually, but speaking personally; yet *another* retread of old material with revised presentation interests me not at all. Why pay for stuff I already have in a new package? Same reason I did not/will not buy SW/CI.

As an intro product, makes total sense, but...then wasn't SW/CI a pair of sucker's products? Like; "HAHA! You paid for this, but here is THE SAME STUFF with art that makes what you have look like crap!" Like; why even do those products if this was in the pipeline? Especially since we've know this was coming for a while.

Unless you wanted to use THAT as a release to do the side-by-side of the old and new art and use THAT as the opportunity to bridge that gap with an official statement that mechs that look like both sets of art are the same type and share the same battlefields. I'd support the HELL out of that. I really don't think lampshading that one is the ethical way to go, so it needs to be dealt with sooner or later.

I will agree, the timing seems to be a fair bit off with the releases of those TROs, but their intent, I think is spot on.

Yes, they are mostly worthless for players with all of the TROs, but we're not the target audience.  They are compilation TROs to help get newer players playing.  The two of them cover the mechs contained in a half dozen separate TROs which is a significant cost savings for anyone just getting into big stompy robots.  Combine that with the BattleMech Manual whose sole focus on mech combat lets it slim the rules down enough to include advanced options from TacOps, and you have a pretty good starter setup to grow out of a boxed set for the people who want more mech on mech combat (which IS the primary draw of the universe even if us grognards like the other bits under the surface too).  The fact they are (roughly) organized by era also simplifies things quite a bit which is super useful for both old and new players finding and picking units.

Again, the timing has been rather terrible.  TRO:SW not including entries for mechs like the Marauder and Warhammer, even if it HAD been Project Phoenix art is a HUGE blow to the whole point of era based organization since those units were heavily fielded then.  And I still think holding TRO:SW and CI back a bit to get newer art in would have increased their appeal, and I imagine the respective boxed sets increases their marketability as an upsell/follow-on product, so I don't see what the rush is to get them released.  products for new players are of less use when there's fewer new players.

[Sartris]

The development cycles for those books were (at least for SW) probably begun before the Kickstarter was little more than an idea. There wouldn’t be bandwidth now to do them (and by now I mean months from now when the art is finished). Doing the books first and waiting on the art would have meant spending resources for no money. The prototype for CI was at gencon last summer, a full eight months before we knew about the Kickstarter.

By the by CI is getting a reprint, the only TRO besides 3039 to get more than one run to my knowledge

The art compromise did what waiting on new art wouldn’t do: make money. TRO SW came out as the last product before they literally shut the line down to retool for the new box - and on a shoestring budget that didn’t have room for the (again, mostly unconceived) art. BMM and SW were some of the only points of BT revenue outside rulebook pdfs for quite a while

For the expected sales, I image the margins were too tight to do new art for anyway. I’m very much of the opinion a TRO: Kickstarter will need a selling point beyond scroggafied art to be a hit.

[Scotty]

Since it's all utterly irrelevant to gameplay, getting a 'new' TRO that has no new 'Mechs but does have new art and also completely redoes all of the Deployment/Notable Pilot fluff would be something I'd buy.

[SteelRaven]

Actually liked the idea of Mini TROs with the Combat Manuals, something similar would be a nice way to introduce new art.   

[BirdofPrey]

I didn't mean to say they should be released at EXACTLY the same time.  Releases ahead of time are still perfectly fine.
What I'm saying is it's fairly clear some of the art has been in development for a while before the kickstarter, since they actually seem to have a decent release plan again, so they could have pumped the brakes a bit on TRO:CI

As for Succession Wars, there's been refreshed art in the Combat Manuals, and my understanding is there's actually a piece or two they commissioned Scroggins for that ended up having their products canceled, and thus not used, so it's less wait to pay for new art, and more spend the time to include art that's already paid for.

As mentioned, though CI IS getting a reprint (and hopefully that is an indicator the direction they want to take Battletech with a bit of reorganization for clarity is actually working), and, again, I hope it's viable to go back to layout to replace the artwork.

[Sartris]

I didn't mean to say they should be released at EXACTLY the same time.  Releases ahead of time are still perfectly fine.
What I'm saying is it's fairly clear some of the art has been in development for a while before the kickstarter, since they actually seem to have a decent release plan again, so they could have pumped the brakes a bit on TRO:CI

some as in maybe 20%. we'd still be waiting. the art's not done yet - the lineup for the kickstarter wasn't locked in until toward the end of the kickstarter. it wouldn't have started until after. you've seen how much they've had time for outside of kickstarter-related items.

As for Succession Wars, there's been refreshed art in the Combat Manuals, and my understanding is there's actually a piece or two they commissioned Scroggins for that ended up having their products canceled, and thus not used, so it's less wait to pay for new art, and more spend the time to include art that's already paid for.

the harmony gold lawsuit prevented all all of the macross art from being used, which was the vast majority of what Anthony and others had done (in addition the CM art isn't TRO art - they were a very different style). There are three new pieces of art out of ninety-five mechs (flea, galahad, banshee). none of the macross units were in SW. so we're back to the art cost/time bottleneck. most of it was Loose's 3025 stuff - they had no intention of waiting.

As mentioned, though CI IS getting a reprint (and hopefully that is an indicator the direction they want to take Battletech with a bit of reorganization for clarity is actually working), and, again, I hope it's viable to go back to layout to replace the artwork.

again, the art isn't done - many of the mechs in CI on the IS side weren't even in the kickstarter. as nckestrel has speculated in another thread, it's due to the demand from the kickstarter.

neither cost nor time were worth pumping the brakes for in any way - people would have rightly complained about a half-done job. best to go with the old stuff and state upfront that's the reality.

[SteelRaven]

I'm perfectly fine with the Era TRO's being compilation TRO's for those who don't already have the existing collection and ask 'where do I start?'

I do see the point, that new art needs a home but asking CGL reprint a TRO every time we get new art for those mechs devalues them as a whole as demand will be less every time. Only reason I brought up the Combat Manuals as a example, you don't need a entire new TRO to introduce new art.       

[Wrangler]

I'd be happy just to see New New TROs.  As much as i want new art work to find a home, i rather see new product in form a TRO with new art.  We haven't had one quite sometime.  Its wearing thin on me as well i would imagine others. 

CGL trying do what has to do get company head above water, but always seems like we take 2 steps behind before we get a step forward.

Where not getting any younger.  :wheelchair:

[I am Belch II]

More and more TRO's. Bonus with new equipment.

[RifleMech]

I hope for new TROs with bonus new equipment.

I wish they'd stayed with dated TROs though. TRO:Succession Wars is confusing. Why include mechs that didn't live though the Succession Wars? Why include the Mackie at all? It pretty much went extinct at the end of the Star League and MUL has it being exclusive to the Star League Era. It was even removed from TRO:3058U for that reason. Not operational. The Mackie would have worked in a revised or upgraded TRO:2750 or even better in a TRO with an earlier date.

Fun Fact: the German version of TRO:2750 includes the Mackie and many other SLDF designs seen in TRO:3058.


I think dates would even help with retconned art. I think production should either be simultaneous or new art means new production. An example of simultaneous production could the Hatcheman. It appears in TRO:3024. TRO:3027 could have the Kurita version. With different styling and maybe even different stats since they couldn't replicate the ejection system and didn't like using hatchets.

An example of sequential production could be TRO:3010 using the older Flea art as used by Wolf's Dragoons and TRO:3042 could have the newer art as the new retooled production available to anyone for purchase. Another example would be the Locust. Just about everyone builds them. That can lead to a lot of different art to reflect all the faction specific variants.

This way nothing is invalidated. Not art. Not miniatures. Not older TROs. Nothing. But that's just my two cents. Not that they'd be worth anything even if they were legal tender.  :(

[Sartris]

I’m guessing we’ll get one that helps set the table for the post-ilclan setting. Besides “era samplers,” (that we don’t even need that many of), the fewer the better. Not releasing a new one since 2013 has been refreshing. we still don’t have all the minis for 3145/50

W E H A V E E N O U G H M E C H S

If you care that much about the old outdated art buy the pdf or hit eBay. It serves almost no one to keep the old shit in print

[The_Big_Red_Bear]

I’m guessing we’ll get one that helps set the table for the post-ilclan setting. Besides “era samplers,” (that we don’t even need that many of), the fewer the better. Not releasing a new one since 2013 has been refreshing. we still don’t have all the minis for 3145/50

W E H A V E E N O U G H M E C H S

If you care that much about the old outdated art buy the pdf or hit eBay. It serves almost no one to keep the old shit in print

Yea, expanding the number of mechs so dramatically really helps no one. There are too many mechs if anything atm. Especially since so many fill the same niches. Then they started spamming new tech to justify new mechs and it just becomes a mess.

Because really, very few times are the mechs even referenced if they're not of the core stock of the models people care about. lol

[RotS fan]

I’m guessing we’ll get one that helps set the table for the post-ilclan setting. Besides “era samplers,” (that we don’t even need that many of), the fewer the better. Not releasing a new one since 2013 has been refreshing. we still don’t have all the minis for 3145/50

W E H A V E E N O U G H M E C H S

If you care that much about the old outdated art buy the pdf or hit eBay. It serves almost no one to keep the old shit in print

N O   W E   D O N T

Can you imagine a TCG player saying they have enough cards? Or a D&D player saying they have enough books already? Or a Pokémon fan saying they have enough Pokémon already? That's how crazy you're sounding now. The whole point of the game is to make giant robot battles and no amount of giant robots will ever "be enough". The game would be in a better place if we got a major TRO per year! It would keep games fresh and shake the foundations of the games. In 2015 I was already tired of using the mechs released in 2013 TROs and it's been 5 years from that already!

I wish I could tell "I see your point" but I clearly don't. How can you like to have your games the same way from 7 years?

We don't have enough mechs and neve will

[Scotty]

Pokemon just sharply reduced the number of them available because it was getting ridiculous, and every (successful) TCG in the world that I'm aware of has rotating supported formats to make sure that the pool of cards doesn't explode or become too large for new players to break into.

You may want to rethink your examples, because neither of them supports your point the way you want them to.

[GreekFire]

I mean, what about new TROs with newer variants of older mechs? I personally enjoyed the Project Phoenix section of TRO3085, and seeing newer versions of the Stalker, Hunchback, Viking, etc. in the TRO3145 series has certainly scratched my itch for new units without them being aesthetically all that different.

[Maingunnery]

Things just become unmanageable above certain numbers.
BT is at least lucky that it would be possible to restrict some units to specific eras.

[Colt Ward]

N O   W E   D O N T

Can you imagine a TCG player saying they have enough cards? Or a D&D player saying they have enough books already? Or a Pokémon fan saying they have enough Pokémon already? That's how crazy you're sounding now. The whole point of the game is to make giant robot battles and no amount of giant robots will ever "be enough". The game would be in a better place if we got a major TRO per year! It would keep games fresh and shake the foundations of the games. In 2015 I was already tired of using the mechs released in 2013 TROs and it's been 5 years from that already!

I wish I could tell "I see your point" but I clearly don't. How can you like to have your games the same way from 7 years?

We don't have enough mechs and neve will

Huh?  You mean the people you play with do not tend to use the same mix of units with little variation?  We had one player I always expected LRMs, especially Semi-Guided, from when he came to play- usually a Viking or Stalker as the main missile chucker.  I know one player that likes to bring the PPCs, and usually has a Awesome or Warhammer on the table.  One guy will usually take a Gallowglas, Ice Ferret, Hoplite or sometimes a Timber Wolf B.  Another wants to field just mechs, and rarely takes anything past 3055- a lot of times 3025 versions.  Another guy is a big Drac fan, has maybe a company painted . . . always seem to see a Panther and Dragon of some sort in his forces.  Another likes the Blakists, so he wants to play with C3i and/or Celestials.  One player likes to mix mechs & armor, he brings stuff from the Lance Packs or the new plastics and a Brutus tank or two- he had really good luck with the Brutus and seemed to like them.

If no one in your group commonly repeats weapons or units, then you have a rare group . . . for a pick up game, I can predict what a lot of people will bring.  Have you used every single of the thousands of mechs?  Probably not, I would expect you have used what you consider best for the conditions.

[Insaniac99]

Huh?  You mean the people you play with do not tend to use the same mix of units with little variation?  We had one player I always expected LRMs, especially Semi-Guided, from when he came to play- usually a Viking or Stalker as the main missile chucker.  I know one player that likes to bring the PPCs, and usually has a Awesome or Warhammer on the table.  One guy will usually take a Gallowglas, Ice Ferret, Hoplite or sometimes a Timber Wolf B.  Another wants to field just mechs, and rarely takes anything past 3055- a lot of times 3025 versions.  Another guy is a big Drac fan, has maybe a company painted . . . always seem to see a Panther and Dragon of some sort in his forces.  Another likes the Blakists, so he wants to play with C3i and/or Celestials.  One player likes to mix mechs & armor, he brings stuff from the Lance Packs or the new plastics and a Brutus tank or two- he had really good luck with the Brutus and seemed to like them.

If no one in your group commonly repeats weapons or units, then you have a rare group . . . for a pick up game, I can predict what a lot of people will bring.  Have you used every single of the thousands of mechs?  Probably not, I would expect you have used what you consider best for the conditions.

You're right, but I also take his point.  For example, in magic, you always had the players who play black, or prefer mill decks, or so on and so forth.

But RotSFan's point, as I take it, is that the Magic has a way to convince people to buy new cards (the rotating formats, keeping only certain cards in production, and a regular power creep)

I do not think that BT needs to be monetized the same way as a CCG -- that was actually an issue I took with MW:DA -- but if you go with the mechs as a the primary monetization scheme thought then it's natural to jump to limited releases and formats that limit mechs, while constantly releasing new ones.

[nckestrel]

Things just become unmanageable above certain numbers.
BT is at least lucky that it would be possible to restrict some units to specific eras.

But then refuses to do so...at least when going forward. :)

[Sartris]

More mechs means more TROs that won’t sell as well as you think they do (it’s not 1995). More resources into more products that don’t make the company money and that won’t keep in print that new players have to absorb. Miss me with that. There are 3600 mech variants. Not even 40k puts that kind of knowledge burden on people. You can’t bring any new ones home until some get thrown out.

This isn’t fantasy land where money flows from the ground. TRO after TRO is a failed business model. If they were so damn popular we would already have 315X. Thank god they decided to put new ones into cold storage.

[Insaniac99]

More mechs means more TROs that won’t sell as well as you think they do (it’s not 1995). More resources into more products that don’t make the company money and that won’t keep in print that new players have to absorb. Miss me with that. There are 3600 mech variants. Not even 40k puts that kind of knowledge burden on people. You can’t bring any new ones home until some get thrown out.

This isn’t fantasy land where money flows from the ground. TRO after TRO is a failed business model. If they were so damn popular we would already have 315X. Thank god they decided to put new ones into cold storage.

I think it's a careful balance.

We need some new mechs and variants and other new things to keep people engaged and give them things to buy, but not so much to flood and not sell and scare new people.

Where that balance is? I don't pretend to know.

[jimdigris]

If we do new TROs, it should be to highlight different models of existing designs, or update the art.  Many of the older designs have not aged well or have glaringly bad design features, like the inability to torso twist. There are some designs that I have don't have minis for because I think that they are ugly.  It is something I could excuse, if they are highly effective, but often they are not.  Many of the Wizkids' designs could stand to be redone with the excuse being that upgrades necessitated significant structural changes.  For example, swapping the SM-1 tank destroyer with the following Matt Plog design commissioned by Marauder648:
 

[Sartris]

I think it's a careful balance.

We need some new mechs and variants and other new things to keep people engaged and give them things to buy, but not so much to flood and not sell and scare new people.

Where that balance is? I don't pretend to know.

i'd lean toward what is profitable and sustainable. if that means few? good. if that means lots? i'll grit my teeth and grumble in the corner. i can't see any evidence that a continuous flow like we got between 3067 and 3145 was the magic bullet - it's been six years. i'll allow that the advancement of the timeline is the prime place to release such things - but i highly doubt we'll be doing anything like the rocket trip from 3081 to 3145 like we saw 2009-2013.

[Insaniac99]

i'd lean toward what is profitable and sustainable. if that means few? good. if that means lots? i'll grit my teeth and grumble in the corner. i can't see any evidence that a continuous flow like we got between 3067 and 3145 was the magic bullet - it's been six years. i'll allow that the advancement of the timeline is the prime place to release such things - but i highly doubt we'll be doing anything like the rocket trip from 3081 to 3145 like we saw 2009-2013.

I agree with you there as well, actually. I think "never enough mechs" and "No more mechs" are both unsustainable.