Talk to me about the Mjolnir (the mace light, not the WarShip)

[Moonsword]

Rolled up a lance over the weekend and the Mjolnir I wound up with off a RAT was, despite my low expectations, even more useless than I expected.

In my opinion and backed by that limited experience (I avoid them if I can), this 'Mech doesn't have the armor to get close or the firepower to do anything useful if the mace can't be put into play effectively.  The enemy mediums were a GRF-1N Griffin and a CLN-7W Chameleon, neither of them especially high firepower units, and the Mjolnir was still singularly underwhelming.  Hell, I think the enemy's STG-5R was more useful overall, not least because there was no reason for it to try and close to melee range.

While I'm probably going to replace it with the Wolfhound I salvaged, does anyone have any advice about using it?  Or should I just sell it to the local militia?

[JadeHellbringer]

Yeah, it's... honestly it might be the worst design of the Dark Age era, even. There's not much to like here. I'm not a fan of small melee Mechs anyway, to be fair, but I'm not sure I'd stop to salvage one if the opportunity presented itself. Sell it, for sure- or at the very least find a way to shoehorn TAG on it. If your job is to run up in someone's face and suck, at least bring the long-range 'O HAI' too.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

It's the kind of mech that you expect to be marked "for export to people we don't like."  It fights valiantly for the title of "worst mech the Lyrans have ever built" with the Stormraider.

[Giovanni Blasini]

Ran one once in an AtB fight. Omg, that mace is utterly worthless. I can't think of instances where it's better than using a kick.

[glitterboy2098]

the post-jihad period seems to have been a time for useless Lyran fast mace wielding Lights.. Ark Royal made the Mjolnir, and Defiance made the Storm raider then farmed it out to Coventry Metal Works when that proved to be a Lemon. why Coventry ven wanted them i don't know but apparently they managed to sell some. the storm raider is ten ton heavier but similar in movement profile, and armed with a RAC2.. meh

[mbear]

The chief concerns of the Mjolnir’s design team were available components and simplicity of construction. From that perspective they looked at some of the Lyran Alliance’s historical successes, including the Wolfhound and Commando designs.

...and promptly said "****** that noise" and tried to make a 25 ton Berserker.

Utilizing design elements of both...

Really? They must mean cosmetically, because the 'Mech isn't great. Or even good.

...as well as acquiring a list of components in ready supply helped the Mjolnir take shape quickly.

You just have to remember the shape is a pile of suck.  xp



To be fair, the BX version uses an XL Engine and XL Gyro to free up enough weight to replace the lasers with two SRM-4s. Which makes perfect sense, because you'd want to replace the energy weapons with missiles instead of adding more armor or MASC or a supercharger.  ??? Seriously, at least the Pathfinder retrotech unit has a Beagle Probe.

(Normally I'm not like this, but I'm in a crappy mood from work. Sorry to the author/designer for taking my frustrations out on your design. Of course maybe the design brief was "Make a light LyrCom 'Mech in the vein of the Stiletto: Interesting idea, terrible execution.")

[JadeHellbringer]

Well, remember to be fair that in a lot of cases the designers had to go off the look and dial stats of the DA unit and go from there- which is why a few of these units became a little strange. This, I suspect, is one of the victims of that tragedy.

[Kit deSummersville]

Everyone has a Targe moment now and then.

[Darkwing]

I remember that bit of fluff in the old 3025 TRO about the general who believed you take down the enemy with waves of light mechs. If I remember right the tactic failed miserably.

In my mind the whole strategy becomes insanely funny when updated with a company of mjolnir trying to club down an Atlas III

[JadeHellbringer]

I remember that bit of fluff in the old 3025 TRO about the general who believed you take down the enemy with waves of light mechs. If I remember right the tactic failed miserably.

In my mind the whole strategy becomes insanely funny when updated with a company of mjolnir trying to club down an Atlas III

Ravannion. And his idea works beautifully against ONE target, maybe even a couple. He... didn't use them that way, and died the way he deserved to as a result.  ;D

[Wrangler]

Yeah, it's... honestly it might be the worst design of the Dark Age era, even. There's not much to like here. I'm not a fan of small melee Mechs anyway, to be fair, but I'm not sure I'd stop to salvage one if the opportunity presented itself. Sell it, for sure- or at the very least find a way to shoehorn TAG on it. If your job is to run up in someone's face and suck, at least bring the long-range 'O HAI' too.

I think click base wise, the mech may have been descent, but that stupid minimalists in their marketing team that roll CBT stats for the thing were underwhelming. I remember reading somewhere that the lady was using Heavy Metal Pro in some cases.  I doubt they kept that up.

As it being worse ever, well i think someone figured it was a bad mech since it's center torso has very similar grill to a 1950s Ford Edsel.  :P

[Fat Guy]

Actually in the Clix game the Dragon's Fury one was a very handy little unit for it's point cost.

In this game, I think I'd take my chances remaining dispossessed.  ;)

[Decoy]

Smacking things in the face is the last thing you want to do with a Mjollnir. Bounce around for the first few turns and build up enough heat to activate the TSM. Then go skirt the edges of the battlefield for bugs that need to be squashed. A 12 point hit will do that pretty well. If that's done or you have none, you flank the enemy and then come in from behind. Few 'mechs survive 12 points to the head and that hit generally opens up things in the rear armor as well.


AS Wise, you can use it with the Horde template and if you have meatshields, redirect fire onto them as the Mjollnir closes to put the kaibosh on things.

[JadeHellbringer]

I suppose I could see it doing well in rear-area raiding operations as well- ammo trucks and the like won't have much answer to exploit the thin armor, and its speed and lack of ammo dependency makes it a handy option for extended operations. It even has two hand actuators (not aware of any rule saying it would have to drop the mace to carry something!) in case you want to take a few souvenirs.

There's BETTER choices, mind you, but if you get handed a lemon you try to make lemonade out of it. I can't see a situation where two of these takes a Valiant regularly.

[DarkSpade]

In the clix game charging something from the other end of the board without line of sight or even a direct path was a valid (and for a long time the best) tactic that the Mjolnir excelled at.  It's not such a great idea (or often even possible) in CBT.

I'll always have a soft spot for the mech though.  It's wild and questionable charging inspired me to name my cat after it.  As a bonus it's always fun to see the vet come out into the waiting area and say, "We're ready to see [looks at chart]...  [looks again].  John's cat."

[The_Livewire]

I'll always have a soft spot for the mech though.  It's wild and questionable charging inspired me to name my cat after it.  As a bonus it's always fun to see the vet come out into the waiting area and say, "We're ready to see [looks at chart]...  [looks again].  John's cat."

This makes me laugh, given Darcy calling Mjolnir "Mew Mew." In the Thor movies.

[iamfanboy]

Yeah, in Alpha Strike I played with the idea of converting my Commandos to Mjolnirs for a bit. They're not terrible if used correctly - jump behind an enemy that's moved, after activating your TSM, and you're dealing a 4-point hit which is not subject to variable damage. That's pretty good for an 18-point pricetag, and can by itself squish a lot of smaller units in one hit. Makes for a good escort to your heavier stuff, to keep the little lights from backstabbing them repeatedly.

And boy, is the Mjolnir mini gawdawful, so taking Commandos and putting hammers in their hand isn't a big stretch... if the Commando mini was any better.

[SD501st]

What's so bad about the mini? The pictures I can find on google for it make it look quite decent.

Like this:

[mbear]

Could the Mjolnir be improved with Heavy Ferro Fibrous armor? It has the crit space available and according to TechManual the max armor for a 25 ton biped is 89 points. So maybe?

[Wrangler]

Could the Mjolnir be improved with Heavy Ferro Fibrous armor? It has the crit space available and according to TechManual the max armor for a 25 ton biped is 89 points. So maybe?

It would still be undergun hooligan of a mech running around with hammer.  It to me is failed/lemon product deliberately made by Lyrans to undermind usefulness anything under 35 tons.  ;D

[JadeHellbringer]

It would still be undergun hooligan of a mech running around with hammer.  It to me is failed/lemon product deliberately made by Lyrans to undermind usefulness anything under 35 tons.  ;D

Yeah, I'd have to back that. It increases its durability by a small extent, but it doesn't fix the fundamental problem with the Mech... that it's lightly armed, and the weapons it has aren't particularly smart ones (MACE). It's kind of the whole lipstick-on-a-pig thing.

[UnLimiTeD]

If you make it look good, that's one hell of an endorsement for the lipstick. In this case, however, that'd probably require for groundbreaking technologies.  ^-^

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

As long as the Mjolnir remains saddled with a standard engine and a mace, it's not going to really be able to change in the ways it needs to to significantly improve.  It's too slow for its size and too lightly armed and there's just not a lot that can be done to change that.

[Wrangler]

Is the Mace still hitting on the full chart, not the headchart?

I know that the Mace used with this thing follows the rules that with one ton and takes up one critical slot for each 10 tons of a 'Mechs weight, rounded up to the nearest ton, and inflicts one point of damage for each 4 tons of the 'Mechs total weight. So this thing only smacking opponents with 6 points of damage a swing.

If it were hitting on the head chart, then i'd say maybe worth it if it was against a light opponent. MAYBE.  xp

[wantec]

Is the Mace still hitting on the full chart, not the headchart?

I know that the Mace used with this thing follows the rules that with one ton and takes up one critical slot for each 10 tons of a 'Mechs weight, rounded up to the nearest ton, and inflicts one point of damage for each 4 tons of the 'Mechs total weight. So this thing only smacking opponents with 6 points of damage a swing.

If it were hitting on the head chart, then i'd say maybe worth it if it was against a light opponent. MAYBE.  xp

The mace is like the hatchet (hits full chart, can choose upper or lower at a cost) except it has a +1 to-hit penalty. The problem is the 'Mech comes from MWDA and it works with the mace from a fluff & MWDA standpoint, but not so much in TW rules.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

The mace is like the hatchet (hits full chart, can choose upper or lower at a cost) except it has a +1 to-hit penalty. The problem is the 'Mech comes from MWDA and it works with the mace from a fluff & MWDA standpoint, but not so much in TW rules.

That +1 penalty vs the hatchet's -1 bonus is a pretty hefty issue, especially since you've got to make a PSR to avoid falling any time you miss.

[packhntr]

The tonnage of the mace can better be put to use on larger weapons.  As is, not even a good harasser.

[Wrangler]

Cudgel is 80 tonner with Mace.  It far nastier with it's swings with it's 20 damage if it should land a hit.

TSM with the Mjolnir may help somewhat.

[Decoy]

A) The Mjolnir has the accurate weapon (Mace) quirk and the easy to maintain quirk. The Accurate Weapon quirk gives it a -1 to hit with the mace. This is all if you use quirks, of course. It just makes it easier to land that 12 point hit on something, eh?


B) TSM means that as a rear line raider, the Mjolnir can carry home as much as a 'mech twice it's weight and move as fast as the Valiant.


C) It's 25 tons. What can you do without turning it into another 'mech entirely. I'm also surprised the MLR-BX hasn't been discussed.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

The problem with TSM is that the Mjolnir really doesn't have much in the way of fine-tuning its heat efficiency.  It only generates 13 heat on a jumping... I can't in good conscious call a single ER Medium Laser and a Single ER Small Laser an alpha strike.  It generates 13 heat if it jumps 6 hexes and fires both its weapons.  It has to do that three turns in a row to get up to 9 on the heat scale to activate TSM.  After that, maintaining a stable temperature requires turning heatsinks off.

You can pull this off, but with plasma weapons and Inferno SRMs so common I think it's pretty dangerous for a small, relatively slow mech to try relying on TSM.

[Wildonion]

Decoy pointing out the quirks for the 'Mech makes me realize that this poor design probably also needs you to play with the rules for turning off heat sinks so that you can better manipulate your heat scale in order to get the TSM working. I have never liked the system, since it just feels too finicky to be of great use, but that would let you get more out of it without being something like an OTL-6D.

[JPArbiter]

If you can catch a target with reflective armor under that mace, the pilot won’t be making fun of the Mjolnir anymore...

[Retry]

If you can catch a target with reflective armor under that mace, the pilot won’t be making fun of the Mjolnir anymore...

Just kicking them would have a similar effect...

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

The only mechs I can think of with Reflective Armor are ones that are either too fast for the Mjolnir to catch (Gunsmith) or things that will horribly murderify an Mjolnir that's stupid enough to get that close (Wendigo, Cave Lion).

[JadeHellbringer]

The only mechs I can think of with Reflective Armor are ones that are either too fast for the Mjolnir to catch (Gunsmith) or things that will horribly murderify an Mjolnir that's stupid enough to get that close (Wendigo, Cave Lion).

The only other one that comes to mind is the Gyrfalcon, and that thing is going to eat a Mjolnir for lunch long before the pilot even knows there's a Jade Falcon hunting him.  ;D

[Decoy]

What exactly do you guys want from the Mjolnir? I'm getting the consensus that if it can't beat an Atlas head on, its not worth much.
The Mjolnir weighs 25 tons, is easy to maintain, costs about 2.6 million cbills, and has an ammoless loadout. Let the 'mechs that are built for a pounding take them. The Mjonir is meant to give a pounding.

A kind of mythological aside here, Thor wanted Mjolnir to be a warhammer. For reasons, he got a throwing hammer. How many myths do we have of Thor sulking in Asgard waiting for the dwarves to do things right?

[Kit deSummersville]

If I wanted to improve it, I'd drop the jump jets for more lasers and armor. Maybe an AES to help with that hammer more....

[JadeHellbringer]

If I wanted to improve it, I'd drop the jump jets for more lasers and armor. Maybe an AES to help with that hammer more....

Now that sounds solid. Much as I appreciate jumping in a light, here it's tonnage we desperately need back. Bumping the small laser to a second medium would be a nice boost, gaining a third would be good... really it's recreating the Valiant at that point, but there's worse Mechs to emulate I suppose. As it is, it's like a slightly stupid version of the 3050 Mercury.

[Caedis Animus]

Frankly, if you *want* a light that specializes in melee combat, the Scarabus is a better choice everywhere except for the budget.

Actually, I don't buy the "Based off of Wolfhound and Commando" line one bit. This thing's just a far cheaper and far worse Scarabus; Hell, both designs are produced by Lyran-Space Mech Factories.

[wantec]

If it wanted to be heavier hitting, it could go with a small vibroblade. TSM becomes a bit pointless, but it kind of is now.

[Arkansas Warrior]

Really? They must mean cosmetically, because the 'Mech isn't great. Or even good.


You just have to remember the shape is a pile of suck.  xp

You've got to look at it from an in-universe perspective, not a tabletop performance perspective.  The Mjolnir uses a GM 150 SFE, the same as the COM-5S.  It uses the Wolfhound's O/P COM-22/H47 communications system and Digital Scanlok 347 targeting & tracking system.  That's what they mean by "components in ready supply".  It doesn't mean anything to us on the tabletop, but it make a difference in-universe.  I'd take "design elements" to be "6/9 25 tonner on an SFE" like the Commando and "no weapons that need ammo" like the Wolfhound.  I can easily see "Build us a lower-end light that won't need much resupply, and try to use existing parts so we can put it into production quickly" leading to something that looks about like this.  The Mace is a weird choice, but I'd put it down to new toy syndrome and/or Lyran fixation with physical weapons.  Now, if it was me I'd have just told them "Build more Wolfhounds.  I don't even care if they're old -1 or -2 models.  Just build more."  But that's just me.

[JadeHellbringer]

That's actually a really good point, using already-available components to build something quick and easy. But yeah, just restarting production of the 3050-style WLF-2 would be a massive improvement.

[Arkansas Warrior]

It should also be noted that the TRO says:

At the same time a new light BattleMech design would be pushed into production for both internal use and external export. That new design would become the Mjolnir.

The Deployment section also says:

...subsequent production runs of the Mjolnir were sold to the Federated Suns and the general mercenary market.

So it's definitely going to mercenaries and friendly governments (the RAF also ordered some).  Building a cheap light mech out of (mostly) existing parts and then selling it to pretty much everyone is a very Lyran move.  And it's not like the ones in LAAF service are going to be piloted by anyone who matters.  The social elite are in Zeuses, Fafnirs, and the like, after all.

[JadeHellbringer]

"If you thought the Civil War's fury and bitterness were past, note that the Lyrans are selling Mjolnirs to the Federated Suns. Old hatreds die hard, clearly."  ^-^

[Liam's Ghost]

What exactly do you guys want from the Mjolnir? I'm getting the consensus that if it can't beat an Atlas head on, its not worth much.

Ridiculous hyperbole always solves everything. I think what people would want from a Mjolnir is the ability to reliably handle opponents its own size at the least. Or otherwise provide a unique capability to make up for its lack of combat power. The Mjolnir manages to do neither of these things, primarily because of its gimmick weapon eating up two thirds of its war load while also being of only limited utility.

The fact that the Mjolnir is a simple design using basic components actually makes it worse. Basic designs tend to go to newer, less experienced mechwarriors, which means inexperienced mechwarriors actually using that mace in combat. And falling on their inescapably lightweight and therefore thinly protected asses when they miss (It's not the fall that kills you, it's the fact you have to burn MP to get back up instead of keeping your speed up).

All in all, a terrible idea all around.

[Sartris]

it's a bug-speed light and ~barely~ avoids certain death from a gauss round to the side torsos or leg. what's not to love?

not many designs make me wonder if a spare Targe is available.

[Liam's Ghost]

You know, despite everything I just said about it, I should clarify that I still kinda like the Mjolnir. It's almost got that "bad with balls" feel about it that the Hellbringer's got, and those same poor design choices almost demand the kind of reckless, irresponsible fighting style that I love so much.

[Giovanni Blasini]

You know, despite everything I just said about it, I should clarify that I still kinda like the Mjolnir. It's almost got that "bad with balls" feel about it that the Hellbringer's got, and those same poor design choices almost demand the kind of reckless, irresponsible fighting style that I love so much.

It's a bit of a failure, but it definitely fails with style.

[Decoy]

Ridiculous hyperbole always solves everything. I think what people would want from a Mjolnir is the ability to reliably handle opponents its own size at the least. Or otherwise provide a unique capability to make up for its lack of combat power.

It does, doesn't it? I now have a clear idea of what to ask. Name the IS 25 tonners you think would win in a fight against a Mjollnir. Assume a 2x1 set up consisting of basic battletech maps. I think there are very few of them that can bring down a Mjolnir before the hammer comes in to bear.

[Giovanni Blasini]

Mongoose?  Honestly, the hammer doesn't worry me much.  TSM and kicks would be a bit more of a concern, and a lot comes down to which is better: 6/9/6 or 8/12/0.  In a run and gun battle, pretty much all Mongoose variants outgun a Mjolnir.

[Sartris]

I've never played a game of BT 1v1 except as a training exercise for new players. 6/9/6 with peashooter weapons gets blasted apart on the post-jihad battlefield in one salvo. it's got an XL and 16 points of torso damage to take before it falls down.

if i were in a 1v1 with a mjolnir, I'd run a tarantula 3A with 8/12/8 movement and 2 mpls. or the 7/11/7 raptor F with x5 erml. hell, you could even run a dopey Eagle 3M and dare the maceman to come in range of the med vspl

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

It does, doesn't it? I now have a clear idea of what to ask. Name the IS 25 tonners you think would win in a fight against a Mjollnir. Assume a 2x1 set up consisting of basic battletech maps. I think there are very few of them that can bring down a Mjolnir before the hammer comes in to bear.

Assuming that both mechs are 4/5 gunnery/pilot skills, you're looking at a 6 with the mace before movement or terrain gets factored in.  Most of the time it's really going to be something like an 11 or 12.  Put it up against, say, an Eagle?  That's a really bad matchup for the Mjolnir.

[Nahuris]

As Arkansas Warrior said, it's made with parts that are in good supply. Subsequent runs were sold ... so, the Lyrans probably kept one production run, and sent the rest out ..... you all want a Battlefield unit, but are not thinking a different way .... trainer. You use this to train pilots for designs like the Hatchetman, Axeman, or Berzerker ..... they get some time in a mech with jump jets, that doesn't cost much, if they bang it up, and that doesn't cost money in ammo, for training. You just had a period of military draw down, and now you need to rearm, along with getting pilots up to speed.

On a side note, they can sell them to OTHER factions that also drank the Stone Kool-Aid and need something to put in formations.... at least, something other than an industrial designs.

As for building new Wolfhounds ... yes, do that, for your own forces .... but building older Wolfhounds isn't going to work, for the same reason that putting M48 Tanks back in production, now, would probably not be a good idea .... it's old tech, despite having an effective canon, still. Everyone KNOWS it's obsolete...... and no matter how much you tell them that it's new, with this or that ......they are seeing an old rusted hulk with fresh paint. Standard Large Laser... yeah, that's some grandfather's garage dweller, we all KNOW that Wolfhounds are sporting Heavy PPC's......

With this design, the Lyrans get a trainer, with options..... they can train pilots, and if desperate, field them...... at least until production is back up to useful levels, and you can start filling formations with better machines ........

The Invasion of France saw the Germans using Panzer 1's and 2's, because there weren't enough better tanks available..... and again, those were training machines ........
After decades of limited production, and draw downs of military assets, you need both machines, and trained bodies to operate them, and this allows them to start on the latter, while they play catch up with the former.

Nahuris

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

As for building new Wolfhounds ... yes, do that, for your own forces .... but building older Wolfhounds isn't going to work, for the same reason that putting M48 Tanks back in production, now, would probably not be a good idea .... it's old tech, despite having an effective canon, still. Everyone KNOWS it's obsolete...... and no matter how much you tell them that it's new, with this or that ......they are seeing an old rusted hulk with fresh paint. Standard Large Laser... yeah, that's some grandfather's garage dweller, we all KNOW that Wolfhounds are sporting Heavy PPC's......

Why not?  Designs that are much, much older are still being built and used by everyone.  People have no problem with using Archers, Phoenix Hawks, or Locusts that are centuries older than the Wolfhound.  Battletech isn't like the real world where armies need to completely trade out all their armored vehicles every thirty years or so.

[Liam's Ghost]

It does, doesn't it? I now have a clear idea of what to ask. Name the IS 25 tonners you think would win in a fight against a Mjollnir. Assume a 2x1 set up consisting of basic battletech maps. I think there are very few of them that can bring down a Mjolnir before the hammer comes in to bear.

Commando? Mongoose? Brigand? Some versions of the Dart? Eagle? Ebony? The list goes on, and on, and on. It'd be a shorter list to name the twenty five ton mechs I wouldn't feel comfortable engaging a Mjolnir in. (The pathfinder?)

Also, the hammer? Does 6 points of damage. With a penalty to hit. And if you miss you have to roll to avoid falling with a +2 penalty. Depending on the skills of the pilots involved, it might actually be worth it to let you take a swing. Sure, if you can get your heat up you can hit twice as hard with it, but you're taking on a penalty to your actual guns to do it. And even to get to that point, you've gotta either jump randomly firing your lasers like a stooge (further hurting your accuracy in every regard), or you have to shut down your heatsinks, which only happens at the end phase, AFTER the heat phase, so you've really just gotta hope things go the right way next round. And the round after that, and the one after that until you actually get both your mech and its heat level in a position to actually swing that hammer (which also requires initiative to go your way on the round you want to swing).

Then you have to hit. Then you have to hope your hit results in enough damage to take your opponent out of the fight. Otherwise, you have to do the WHOLE THING again.

And all the while your opponent, who brought actual guns to the fight, is hammering away at you, delivering just as much if not substantially more punishment without having to perform an intricate song and dance just to have a chance to deliver a knockout blow.

Honestly, your mace doesn't scare me.

[Nahuris]

Why not?  Designs that are much, much older are still being built and used by everyone.  People have no problem with using Archers, Phoenix Hawks, or Locusts that are centuries older than the Wolfhound.  Battletech isn't like the real world where armies need to completely trade out all their armored vehicles every thirty years or so.

Yeah, but convincing other procurement offices to buy them is not going to be easy, not in amounts to be significant, and it wouldn't only be pilots you need to train.....  If you haven't been building a lot of combat mechs, you aren't going to have workers with the skills necessary, to build modern units with advanced tech.  Unlike mechs, people can't be mothballed into warehouses, and saved for decades.... they tend to deteriorate.
So, rather than use resources to build those older units, and then have to either upgrade them, at additional cost, or try and market them to people that are also trying to get the best bang for the buck with advanced units.... you build something that is cheap enough to be a bargain..... too cheap for other factions to pass them up as at least useful, for the cost.... and while doing so, you gain cash, and experience.....
Your supply and resource people get experience moving stuff around, while your factory workers get experience in hooking up fusion engines and myomers ..... and you gain units for training pilots on, so that they are ready when the bigger, and better stuff can be built .....

Remember the succession wars... in 3025, a Gauss Rifle was "Old" tech ... ancient star league.... but not one Davion factory could turn them out.....
The Inner Sphere just came out of a multi-decade era, where skills in mech building weren't a guarantee to a well paid living...... It would be like trying to build a car factory in the areas of Brazil with the primitive tribes as workers .... it would be a long time, before they were turning out quality vehicles.  They wouldn't have the base knowledge requirements, as workers, to even begin to have anything like a production rate, nor the experience to even know a quality error, if they saw one.

The Mjolnir gives you more than just a small, mediocre, mech .... it gives all the other things that are needed to take a nation that hasn't had military building as a priority, and expands the ability of that nation to become a military power.

Nahuris

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

This is the Lyran Commonwealth we're talking about, not the Outworld Alliance.  They kinda know how to build mechs.  And how to build factories to build those mechs.  The Inner Sphere was devastated by the Jihad, but it wasn't suffering from centuries of lost knowledge the way it was after the Third Succession War.

[Orin J.]

What exactly do you guys want from the Mjolnir? I'm getting the consensus that if it can't beat an Atlas head on, its not worth much.
The Mjolnir weighs 25 tons, is easy to maintain, costs about 2.6 million cbills, and has an ammoless loadout. Let the 'mechs that are built for a pounding take them. The Mjonir is meant to give a pounding.

Maybe that it be able to deliver against anything besides succession war era 'mechs in it's own weight class? The mace here is the problem, but it's a problem the couldn't avoid. too much weight going into a weapon you can't easily get full use out of without a lot of tooling around like a nitwit. or getting hit with infernos i guess, but very few friends trust me to shoot at them with the right ammo.

honestly, i'm wondering if the mace was demanded as part of some PR gimmick. i mean it's light, cheap, and has a fancy hammer. stick it in homeworld patrol postings and let the kids gawk at it so they'll forget how nasty war is.

[mbear]

So it's definitely going to mercenaries and friendly governments (the RAF also ordered some).  Building a cheap light mech out of (mostly) existing parts and then selling it to pretty much everyone is a very Lyran move.  And it's not like the ones in LAAF service are going to be piloted by anyone who matters.  The social elite are in Zeuses, Fafnirs, and the like, after all.

I think that's what I find so frustrating about it. I understand your point about using already produced components to make a new unit, especially if you're selling them. But surely there's some officer who realized "Hey we can make the export version and a house special version with cool stuff." Almost like a Mjolnir-b "Royal" variant. I'm sure there's a Light Engine in production that could be put into the torso. That would free up one ton of weight and allow the Mjolnir to have another ER Medium Laser. I already mentioned using Heavy Ferro Fibrous armor up-thread and though it wouldn't really help a whole lot, it sure wouldn't hurt.

Regardless of version, dropping any pretense at ranged combat and using a battery of ER Small Lasers would be better for using TSM. The standard model could have three ER Smalls, which provides a possible 9 points of damage vs. the current ER Medium/ER Small combo's possible 8 points. The proposed Light Engine variant could bring in two more ER Smalls. It's still not great, but it's going to be a lot easier for the pilot to get the heat up to TSM friendly levels. And you'd have a credible rear-area raider.

[UnLimiTeD]

If they make a b version, I'm hoping for a chain whip.  ;D
That said, is a light with a melee weapon really such a great idea?
It isn't enough for headcaps, costs weight that you could definitely spend on other things...  I suppose, to me, the whole concept of the weight class is recen, hit&run, maybe some backstabbing - wielding a mace doesn't quite fit. Well, it never does, but it doesn't here, either.
The marksman tank got a makeover with the suggested domestic/export version dichotomy, so this mech certainly could. The question of whether anyone actually wants to see that and it's worth the space would have to asked, though.

[Arkansas Warrior]

If they make a b version, I'm hoping for a chain whip.  ;D
That said, is a light with a melee weapon really such a great idea?
It isn't enough for headcaps, costs weight that you could definitely spend on other things...  I suppose, to me, the whole concept of the weight class is recen, hit&run, maybe some backstabbing - wielding a mace doesn't quite fit. Well, it never does, but it doesn't here, either.
The marksman tank got a makeover with the suggested domestic/export version dichotomy, so this mech certainly could. The question of whether anyone actually wants to see that and it's worth the space would have to asked, though.

Lights with melee weapons aren't great ideas, no, but that's never stopped the Lyrans before (the Scarabus and Valiant, for example).  But it actually can headcap, given active TSM.  In fact, I think it's the lightest IS design capable of headcapping.  That's something in it's favor.   It might make it draw more than its share of fire, but that's pretty much the case for any design with a physical weapon, especially those with TSM.  And if hey're shooting at your Mjolnir, they aren't shooting at your Wolfhound/Commando/Battle Hawk/etc.

[Caedis Animus]

And if hey're shooting at your Mjolnir, they aren't shooting at your Wolfhound/Commando/Battle Hawk/etc.

Problem is, the Mjolnir isn't as durable as any of those units short of the Commando. If it were, say, a Lyran-made Rokurokubi with hardened armor and better payload, I could understand it being a potential light vanguard/bodyguard to more fragile units. But as it is, it's weaker than all three of those units in every measure possible short of the Commando's armor and the Battle Hawk's speed.

And if you're designing a bodyguard unit that is actively weaker in every regard to its charge(s) short of one very specific role, I have to ask-why are you wasting your resources doing that? Especially if the existing Scarabus is also a melee machine and doesn't require nearly as much juggling to get working properly. I mean, hell, just ditching the Mace and replacing it with a Hatchet opens up a ton and adding a laser or two, even if that basically makes it an introtech Scarabus.

[Arkansas Warrior]

It also means you can't headcap, and the design isn't as scary.  Look, if you're not impressed by the numbers, that's fine.  Not being that scary on paper is a grand tradition among melee mechs.  But there's something intangible about a headcap-capable mace coming at you at better than 100kph that's known to unsettle people on the tabletop, to say nothing of the "brown pants effect" it's likely to have on ill-disciplined troops in universe, who are used to lighs packing MLs and SRMs, or maybe a large laser.


It isn't about being better at getting shot up than other Lyran lights.  It's about being an incredibly cheap (cheaper than an introtech WLF-1, hell a whole Mjolnir costs less than a Boosted C3 Master unit) machine that can scare the crap out of people, draw fire away from other units, and maybe knock some poor fool's block off before it dies.  Yes, it's going to get shot to pieces.  It's a light mech.  In the mean time, it can do some useful stuff.  Remember, this is the first thing the rebuilding Arc Royal Mechworks started building after the Jihad.  Of course it isn't going to be a whiz-bang design chock full of new tech.

[Caedis Animus]

It also means you can't headcap, and the design isn't as scary.  Look, if you're not impressed by the numbers, that's fine.  Not being that scary on paper is a grand tradition among melee mechs.  But there's something intangible about a headcap-capable mace coming at you at better than 100kph that's known to unsettle people on the tabletop, to say nothing of the "brown pants effect" it's likely to have on ill-disciplined troops in universe, who are used to lighs packing MLs and SRMs, or maybe a large laser.

Except, again, that headcappy Mace is hard to activate at the best of times on a standard-heat environment-and frankly, this thing's going against the likes of the DCMS and Clans in-universe. Maybe, MAYBE bandit-hunting, is the best you are going to get out of this machine that requires TSM to be effective-and it can't even pull together enough heat to actually *do* that unless you take some rather odd actions constantly, at times that would be better spent on other machines just getting into range and shooting.

I mean, I get that melee mechs *can* be scary. I try to run Berserkers, Hatchetmen, Scarabus(i?) as often as I can; And yes, underestimating (Or freaking out over) them is certainly one of their bright sides. But the Mjolnir-and its close cousin, the Stormraider-are both just awful at being melee units. And even then, at least the Stormraider can do something while advancing beyond 8 points of damage at 3 hexes (5 at 9).

[Arkansas Warrior]

It's not hard to activate if you allow heat sinks to be switched off, but I guess that's an optional rule.  I'd think it would be facing more pirates than anything.  In the era, there'd have probably been some skirmishing with the clans on and off, but did the LAAF fight the DCMS at all post-Jihad?  They didn't have much border once the Republic was established.  I suspect uppity FWL fragments, pirates (like the Rim Territories, which comes into existence in 3087), and the occasional rebellious Archonette would've been the main opponents in the era.

[Caedis Animus]

It's not hard to activate if you allow heat sinks to be switched off, but I guess that's an optional rule.  I'd think it would be facing more pirates than anything.  In the era, there'd have probably been some skirmishing with the clans on and off, but did the LAAF fight the DCMS at all post-Jihad?  They didn't have much border once the Republic was established.  I suspect uppity FWL fragments, pirates (like the Rim Territories, which comes into existence in 3087), and the occasional rebellious Archonette would've been the main opponents in the era.

Sorry, I should've clarified the DCMS thing; That's more of a Fedsuns/ROTS side of things, who IIRC receive the Mjolnir as well.

Still, even if cheapness was such a major factor in the development process of the Mjolnir, it's still not really good against... Well, anything. Just saying-it's sad that swapping the mace for an SRM-4 or a laser would actually make the machine some form of better, and actually make it even cheaper despite losing the headcapper.

[Arkansas Warrior]

Gotcha, I'm mostly looking at the Lyran side.  Once they've sold them, what do they care what the buyers do with them?  Getting them busted up just means the customers have to put in an order for replacement parts


Sure, you could replace the mace with an SRM-4.  But then it's got an ERML, and ERSL, and an SRM-4.  If it was underwhelming before, now it's just sad. And that mean's you're reducing armor or leaving unCASEd ammo somewhere, so now it's slow(ish), badly armed, and might explode.  And them maximum damage drops 4 points.  That's something I hadn't realized until just now, actually; the existing armament is exactly 20 points if everything hits, so not only can you headcap (or take of a limb or torso on a lot of similar-weight mechs), but you can force a PSR too.  I mean, yeah, if you rip out the whole armament for a bunch of MLs and SLs, you can do more damage, but then it looks just like a bunch of other lights we've already seen.  It'll end up as a worse Fire Javelin, or worse Jenner-F, or worse Spider.  At least this has a new trick, even if it's a trick that isn't going to work all the time.  It'll sure surprise the hell out of that Turkina pilot when it comes bursting through the bush and caves his head in.  That's something no other 25 tonner can claim.  And when it misses and fails spectacularly?  Eh, it's a 2.6 million C-bill light mech.  We'll buy another one with the money we had set aside for the grog bowl at next month's Dining Out.   ;D

[Caedis Animus]

Gotcha, I'm mostly looking at the Lyran side.  Once they've sold them, what do they care what the buyers do with them?  Getting them busted up just means the customers have to put in an order for replacement parts


Sure, you could replace the mace with an SRM-4.  But then it's got an ERML, and ERSL, and an SRM-4.  If it was underwhelming before, now it's just sad.

Hey, I didn't say it was necessarily a better choice, just a more consistently 'reliable' one; Dogcrap is still dogcrap, though.

Also, my bad; Forgot it had ERs, not regs. Either way, my point was more that the tonnage put on the mace could be put to better use; Especially with the mace forcing a PSR on a (Very likely, against other lights at least) miss, as well. As others have said, might as well just eschew the Mace and going with something more reasonable and less risky to use. (As a side note-I do actually like maces on some mechs, just feel this particular choice is a very bad one.)

[Liam's Ghost]

It's not hard to activate if you allow heat sinks to be switched off, but I guess that's an optional rule.

It's a tournament legal rule (covered in total warfare). It just doesn't get talked about much.

The main complication is that you only activate or deactivate heat sinks at the end of the round. So you have to commit to what you're going to do, shoot at, and partly how you're going to move the next round or so before, well, you have any idea what your enemy is going to do. Essentially, you're telegraphing your punch.

[Caedis Animus]

Sorry if this is borderline-or is-violating the customs rule, but it's kind of interesting how upping the chassis to a 30 ton design would actually make it far more easy to solve any of the Mjolnir's problems. Hatchet swap still gives 1 ton and actually makes it a headcapper with TSM (Meaning it's the better choice at 30 tons) and frees up a few tons if you keep everything else the same.

They were so close to greatness. So close.

[Arkansas Warrior]

Sorry if this is borderline-or is-violating the customs rule, but it's kind of interesting how upping the chassis to a 30 ton design would actually make it far more easy to solve any of the Mjolnir's problems. Hatchet swap still gives 1 ton and actually makes it a headcapper with TSM (Meaning it's the better choice at 30 tons) and frees up a few tons if you keep everything else the same.

They were so close to greatness. So close.

Yeah, but then it's just a slower, jumpy Scarabus.

[Caedis Animus]

Yeah, but then it's just a slower, jumpy Scarabus.

A jumpy, slower Scarabus that can headcap.

Besides, it's not like a Sword counting as a Hatchet has never happened before-the Clan Buster Black Knight's Hatchet is described as looking like a Sword. So I think a slightly hammer-shaped Hatchet isn't too far outside the realm of possibility.

[Arkansas Warrior]

I forget there’s a non-TSM Scarabus.  I only ever use the 9T.

[Caedis Animus]

I forget there’s a non-TSM Scarabus.  I only ever use the 9T.

Let me rephrase again, then; A cheaper, slower, jumpier Scarabus that can still headcap.

I'd actually take it over the SCB-9T at that point, honestly-if only to free up some BV or CBills.

[Nightsong]

I remember that bit of fluff in the old 3025 TRO about the general who believed you take down the enemy with waves of light mechs. If I remember right the tactic failed miserably.

In my mind the whole strategy becomes insanely funny when updated with a company of mjolnir trying to club down an Atlas III

“Why do little blue midgets keep hitting me with fish?!” - The Tick, The Tick Vs Proto-Clown

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Sure, you could replace the mace with an SRM-4.  But then it's got an ERML, and ERSL, and an SRM-4.  If it was underwhelming before, now it's just sad. And that mean's you're reducing armor or leaving unCASEd ammo somewhere, so now it's slow(ish), badly armed, and might explode.  And them maximum damage drops 4 points.  That's something I hadn't realized until just now, actually; the existing armament is exactly 20 points if everything hits, so not only can you headcap (or take of a limb or torso on a lot of similar-weight mechs), but you can force a PSR too.

No it can't.  You have to deal 20+ damage in one phase, and the Mjolnir's splitting its damage across two phases (weapons attacks and physicals).

[Terrace]

You don't have to improve it. Just treat it as the early-campaign mook 'Mech it is for your players to blow up once they start finding Arbiters too easy.

[mbear]

You know, the Mjolnir might be a good way to introduce Hand Held Weapons into the game. A battery of rocket launchers would be useful for it. The Mjolnir meets all the requirements to use a HHW too.

[mbear]

Except, again, that headcappy Mace is hard to activate at the best of times on a standard-heat environment-and frankly, this thing's going against the likes of the DCMS and Clans in-universe. Maybe, MAYBE bandit-hunting, is the best you are going to get out of this machine that requires TSM to be effective-and it can't even pull together enough heat to actually *do* that unless you take some rather odd actions constantly, at times that would be better spent on other machines just getting into range and shooting.

I mean, I get that melee mechs *can* be scary. I try to run Berserkers, Hatchetmen, Scarabus(i?) as often as I can; And yes, underestimating (Or freaking out over) them is certainly one of their bright sides. But the Mjolnir-and its close cousin, the Stormraider-are both just awful at being melee units. And even then, at least the Stormraider can do something while advancing beyond 8 points of damage at 3 hexes (5 at 9).

Actually now that I think about it some more, a Mjolnir used by the AFFS facing the CCAF might not totally suck. The CCAF's fondness for plasma weapons could be used against them by allowing heat to build up from weapons fire. Wait, I take that back. There's not enough armor to allow the Mjolnir to take damage long enough for the plasma heat to build up.

Good lord, I'm actually wondering if a unit of friendly flamer infantry could provide enough heat to activate the TSM.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Illegal according to the rules: you can't deliberately fire at one of your own units even if the attack won't damage them (I asked about the possibility of using Inferno SRMs to take out swarming BA).  Your best bet is to set a few hexes on fire and have the Mjolnir stand in them.

[JadeHellbringer]

Illegal according to the rules: you can't deliberately fire at one of your own units even if the attack won't damage them (I asked about the possibility of using Inferno SRMs to take out swarming BA).  Your best bet is to set a few hexes on fire and have the Mjolnir stand in them.

Wait, really? The old thing about coolant trucks spraying down friendly units goes out the window then, so that surprises me. I've never looked, mind you, but it seems odd.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

I didn't think about coolant trucks, but given that that's an explicitly allowed option I think it counts as the exception that proves the rule.

[Sartris]

Illegal according to the rules: you can't deliberately fire at one of your own units even if the attack won't damage them (I asked about the possibility of using Inferno SRMs to take out swarming BA).  Your best bet is to set a few hexes on fire and have the Mjolnir stand in them.

bad rule.