“Save” the Jags

[Sjhernan3060]

I say yes they would be sponsored for a Bloodname.   There would be so many vacated Bloodnames that they would have to be nominated. 

Of course, this all depends on them being successful, which is a tall order.

That also could have been a teaser of sorts to get older warriors to sign up

[Sjhernan3060]

The two galaxies that garrisoned huntress that serpent first fought were noted to be fielding captured IS designs. Would these have been given the IIC treatment? I would think so since that garrison was so hard up for gear...

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

No.  They were fielding captured IS mechs that had been fixed with captured IS weapons and equipment.  The point was that those galaxies were so hard up that they didn't have the gear to upgrade any of their mechs to Clan weaponry.

[Sjhernan3060]

No.  They were fielding captured IS mechs that had been fixed with captured IS weapons and equipment.  The point was that those galaxies were so hard up that they didn't have the gear to upgrade any of their mechs to Clan weaponry.

!? Jeez...

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Remember, Huntress's garrison force was so badly off for equipment that the Galaxy Commander in charge had resorted to smuggling captured IS machines onto the planet in order to insure he had mechs.  In the wake of the Invasion and their losses on Tukayyid, the Smoke Jaguars were left catastrophically short on materials, and they'd poached from most of their front-line galaxies to form a brand new galaxy, Tau Galaxy, that was wiped out before it could be deployed.  Their anemic production couldn't keep up with demands on the front lines in the Invasion Corridor, so any stockpiles of Clantech that might have been on Huntress before were shipped out.

[Mohammed As`Zaman Bey]

Remember, Huntress's garrison force was so badly off for equipment that the Galaxy Commander in charge had resorted to smuggling captured IS machines onto the planet in order to insure he had mechs.  In the wake of the Invasion and their losses on Tukayyid, the Smoke Jaguars were left catastrophically short on materials, and they'd poached from most of their front-line galaxies to form a brand new galaxy, Tau Galaxy, that was wiped out before it could be deployed.  Their anemic production couldn't keep up with demands on the front lines in the Invasion Corridor, so any stockpiles of Clantech that might have been on Huntress before were shipped out.

  I read that CSJ command was so befuddled that Huntress still had warehouses of front-line omnis earmarked for units that no longer existed, and nobody was allowed to touch them, so they wound up in IS hands after the fighting.

[Crimson Dynamo]

  I read that CSJ command was so befuddled that Huntress still had warehouses of front-line omnis earmarked for units that no longer existed, and nobody was allowed to touch them, so they wound up in IS hands after the fighting.

I recall reading this too but don't recall where.

And I also recall that Tau was a newly-built Galaxy, fresh Sibkos and fresh OmniMechs from the Homeworlds rather than "poached" from existing units. Not sure where the idea their ability to actually produce machines was "anemic" comes from. It was keeping them intact once they were in the field that was the problem.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

The personal and equipment to build Tau Galaxy was diverted from othe front-line galaxies,  leaving them understrength. And the Jaguars have always been described as having a very poor and neglected industrial base, depending on raising other Clans to make up their shortfalls.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Tau was raised as a brand new formation on Huntress, as the conversation between Devon and Lincoln Osis on Avon in the beginning of Impetus of War tells it. When Devon Osis arrives on Wildcat a couple chapters later, it's specifically said all the Galaxy's OmniMechs "were all new, some of them test models never seen by the other Clans." Only Alpha Galaxy, itself still rebuilding and not yet reactivated in this timeframe, lost out by having assets diverted to Tau. This is not the same thing as having been built by "poaching" from the other front-line Galaxies.

You can make the claim parts of their industrial base may have been neglected, but poor is not a word I'd use. All the Jaguar staples are heavily represented in what products list unit breakdowns, like the Dragon Roars and Twilight scenario packs, and in the novels. It was certainly robust enough to facilitate the continued rebuilding in the post-Tukayyid years however slowly, when raids were causing heavy damage to one Cluster just as another had been rebuilt. If this wasn't organic production, then the Jaguars had potent forces in the Homeworlds not on Huntress to facilitate Trialing for the material of other Clans... except we know this idea is generally frowned upon per Shadows of War and the bit about the creation of the Jaguar's Heart. I would maintain they did have such units, but their presence is inferred vs. observed from odd snippets in other products.

[Hellraiser]

One thing to remember about the Jags was it wasn't so much "Production Capacity" that they lacked as it was "Innovation, Resources, & Diplomacy".

Think about every mech the Jags currently produce.

To the best of my knowledge, All but the WarHawk & Ebon Jaguar were something they stole from the original designers  (Wolves/Hellions/Bears), & then put into final production.

The closest thing they had to allies was the Falcons, and that was only in forwarding the Crusader agenda.

They constantly picked fights & took stuff from other clans.
  Eventually that backfires when all those other clans start hitting back at the same time or when your already weak from facing IS forces.

When everyone you've raided starts raiding back then those resources you've been stealing to compliment your own supplies dries up & you start loosing your own resources to counter raids.

IIRC, The Sharks started fighting back on Vinton & the Wolves took their portion of Tranquil... to mention a couple specific examples.
I can only imagine there are other ones & similar actions.

Tukayyid was a disaster for every clan in terms of material & personnel losses.
  When they needed to be using every resource to rebuild they started loosing access to those resources.
  And the OZ was never a fun place for them with DC rebellions on most worlds & Wolcott acting as a big fat base for raiders to launch from.

The Jags always had a strong military, but they didn't seem to have was strong merchant & scientist castes working behind the scenes.
They used the military to supplement not wanting to invest in the lower castes the way other clans did.  (Sharks/Coyotes).
When it got weak from over use, by extension those neglected castes couldn't be counted on to take some of the burden & the leadership lacked the diplomacy to have allies & trade partners.

[Intermittent_Coherence]

The Jags had an entire world all to themselves. One guarded by no less than 2 galaxies.
That potentially means as much and likely more industrial production than they knew what to do with.
I seem to recall that Hang Mehta equipped her troops from caches on Huntress itself.
As to why the garrisoning troops did not have access to them.... well garrison troops.

[Mohammed As`Zaman Bey]

I recall reading this too but don't recall where.

  Omnis were saved for front line units, while the defenders on Huntress were relegated to salvaged IS equipment:
  "Sword and Fire"

"What the ..." Barclay began, confused over the computer's apparent mistake. Then Winston's reminder came back to her. According to the intelligence gathered by the Clan spy, the Jags had been bringing captured Inner Sphere 'Mechs back to Huntress for use by the second-line and solahma warriors populating the two Galaxies defending the planet.

Though the Vindicator had to be close to shutdown because of the excess heat caused by damage to its engine, the Clan pilot extended the big PPC replacing the spindly 'Mech's right forearm.

  "Prince of Havoc"

Anastasius Focht, Precentor Martial of ComStar, cleared his throat. "I have some of my people preparing a comprehensive inventory of supplies here and comparing it with the needs of our units for final refitting of Clan technology. I would expect-we will require less than five percent of what is stored here to become fully operational. I'd like to refit the Fourth Drakøns with Clan machines, bringing them up to spec with the rest of the units that came here with us. Beyond that, I don't believe we will have a high demand for the materials here."

  Less than five percent of that salvage was enough to restore all the units that arrived on Huntress with Clan tech...TF Serpent was reduced to two regiments after all the fighting.

Victor frowned as he thought for a moment. "Okay, what I'd like to do with the salvage is this: every unit gets its pick of what they took down. They can bring themselves up to full strength plus ten percent.

[Crimson Dynamo]

One thing to remember about the Jags was it wasn't so much "Production Capacity" that they lacked as it was "Innovation, Resources, & Diplomacy".

Think about every mech the Jags currently produce.

To the best of my knowledge, All but the WarHawk & Ebon Jaguar were something they stole from the original designers  (Wolves/Hellions/Bears), & then put into final production.

Jaguar diplomacy? Good one  :D. Resources are as ever dictated by the needs of the plot. But innovation? Really? The Scientists who created a new class of combat unit in the ProtoMech without the overt support or knowledge of the Clan Council lacked innovation? Or the miniaturized weapons and equipment utilized by said ProtoMechs? Or both flavors of variant machine guns? Or the Watchdog CEWS, itself said to be one of a number or projects initiated by the Jaguars? The Nova Cats sought out Jaguar Scientists to help design the BattleMech that became the Ocelot. Of the 'Mechs they did design themselves, not that who designed a 'Mech is particularly germane to the ability to produce them, the Mist Lynx, Ebon Jaguar, and Warhawk were all popular machines both within the Jaguars and without. The Warhawk in particular was called "highly-prized" by the other Clans, with "great pains" being taken to keep them well-maintained. The ability to innovate does not appear to have been lacking.

Can't lay it at the feet of whatever behind-the-throne shenanigans the Society was up, as they apparently didn't get too far into the Jaguars and were as surprised as anybody by the ProtoMechs' debut.

Can't argue much with your analysis of inter-Clan relations and resource access, but it does lead back to my point about their ability to provide for themselves. Their ability to slowly claw back from the losses at Luthien and Tukayyid speaks to either their ability to make their own stuff or continued ability to take it from others, or perhaps a bit of both. This ability did not go away in the years after Tukayyid, as the creation of a new Galaxy in Tau, the expansion of Epsilon with the 6th Striker, and the couple reformed Clusters of Alpha Galaxy show in spite of the pressures the Jaguars were known to be under. Was it going to be sustainable in the long run? Who knows; events solidly took the burden to try from the Jaguars.

[Maingunnery]

Can't lay it at the feet of whatever behind-the-throne shenanigans the Society was up, as they apparently didn't get too far into the Jaguars and were as surprised as anybody by the ProtoMechs' debut.

Source?

[Talen5000]

But innovation? Really? The Scientists who created a new class of combat unit in the ProtoMech without the overt support or knowledge of the Clan Council lacked innovation? Or the miniaturized weapons and equipment utilized by said ProtoMechs? Or both flavors of variant machine guns? Or the Watchdog CEWS, itself said to be one of a number or projects initiated by the Jaguars? The Nova Cats sought out Jaguar Scientists to help design the BattleMech that became the Ocelot. Of the 'Mechs they did design themselves, not that who designed a 'Mech is particularly germane to the ability to produce them, the Mist Lynx, Ebon Jaguar, and Warhawk were all popular machines both within the Jaguars and without. The Warhawk in particular was called "highly-prized" by the other Clans, with "great pains" being taken to keep them well-maintained. The ability to innovate does not appear to have been lacking.

Can't lay it at the feet of whatever behind-the-throne shenanigans the Society was up, as they apparently didn't get too far into the Jaguars and were as surprised as anybody by the ProtoMechs' debut.

Broadly true. You also left out the Toorima, and the light AC project that the Spirits morphed into PACs, or (depending on how you take it) the Laser Anti-Air Missile or the ARAD missile.

The Jags appear to have paid a very large emphasis on science and engineering. They may have been as focussed as the Coyotes, but their efforts appear to have been much more widely spread, making inroads into areas other Clans considered unworthy and they poured a huge amouunt of resources into their various programs. So...whereas the Coyotes poured resources into a few projects, and kept themselves at the cutting edge, the Jags would have focussed on more areas.

The WoR book does state that the Society didn't gain much influence within the Jags, and that might be because, despite their supposedly "conservative" nature, Jaguar scientists, engineers and technicians were apparently  well resourced, respected and given freedom to carry out their research. No forbidden areas or taboos to worry about whereas in other Clans, research could be deemed unClanlike or treasonous if the leadership didn't like it. Its one of several areas where the Jags deviated from practises in other Clans...they don't seem to share the aversion to cyber upgrades for example.

We never got an in depth look at Jaguar society, but what we got appears to be consistent that the Jaguars placed a huge degree of importance on science and engineering. From having "the best techs in the Galaxy" to pouring huge resources into their R&D systems to the new control systems, heat sinks, weapons and armour for Protos...

Of course, IRL, its because Jaguars were given Protos as a tester so FASA weren't committed to them and the respect for science and engineering  effectively retconned into their culture but it adds flavour and didn't really change anything about them. So its a good change IMO.

But again, it isn't one that is explicitly stated.

[Colt Ward]

Um, the Society was absolutely embedded in the Jaguars- they had Aiden's genetic material on hand as found by Horse IIRC.  It was one of the big early clues about a Clan-wide conspiracy being in place.

The Jaguars lacked the ability to replace losses in the OZ for several reasons.

First, lack luster production . . . yes, they have been backfilled with a lot of production locations (to explain how other factions ended up with them in Wars of Possession) but we get no idea about how large the locations are (# of lines) or production rates.  WE do get a historical friction between laborers and the warrior caste . . . and it can be surmised the production did not perform at the same level as the other invading Clans.

Second, constant raids . . . besides the mentioned Drac raids the Jags also had to contend with raids from their fellow Clans.  The Cats in the OZ trialing for resources, the Sharks on the Exodus Road interdicting supply convoys, and Homies back in Clan space.  Consider for 2+ years other Clans that wanted Dire Wolves, Warhawks or other Jag exclusives were blocked by the ilKhan's dictate protecting the Invaders . . . but also consider who created the dictate, and why they might have made that order.  We know from the Shark/Labov write up that part of the way the Sharks recovered was capturing supplies along the Exodus Road but the other Clans in their write ups in FMCC/WC are not noted as being inconvenienced.  In fact the Bears were trading territory for Shark support relocating.  This leaves the two factions not covered in the pair of FMs as bearing the brunt of the Shark efforts- Jags & Cats . . . which are going to have trade routes near each other.

You say it speaks to their ability?  It speaks to their abilities poorly.  The Bears recovered while transferring their Clan to the IS.  Besides rebuilding their clusters they were also relocating everything to the OZ and upgrading their factories.  They traded Home world territory and IS resources for Shark assistance & equipment.  The Sharks?
 They lost a OZ planet in Bear space but gained trading opportunities in others, started to bring out updated old Clan designs (Warhammer IIC & Marauder IIC to the new PP series) along with totally new garrison designs to be sold to the Invaders.  The Falcons recovered and built up a string of very large supply caches in their forward OZ holdings while also converting IS factories to produce Clan mechs.  The Falcons also had scrapyards of IS machines they were harvesting for parts.  The Wolves started converting IS factories (Tamar, Satalice, etc) to produce Clan material and Trial'd for or traded (Clint IIC fluff) for enough Clan equipment to build a new 5 cluster galaxy (Tau) in '55 positioned in the OZ without weakening the recovery of other clusters/galaxies.

Compare that to the Jags who broke their logistics pipelines to build a 3 cluster galaxy in '57 which brings up the next point . . 

Third, logistical mismanagement . . . Everything built in the Home Worlds, packed on a ship and sent 6 months away.  Arrogance causing the waste of captured machines- if the Jags had used the C series of IS machines, or even repaired captured old Star League designs they could have supplemented their garrison clusters.  Sure some were smuggled or brought to Huntress under false pretenses- but that would be a drop in the bucket to what was left rusting in the Inner Sphere . . . makes you wonder if the Dracs recovered piles of wrecks they could refurbish.  What were the Jaguars doing with all the resources the OZ could have produced?  Other Clans put the OZs to use feeding their war machines but we get nothing in Bird Dog/Bulldog about capturing IS support facilities to deny them to the Jags.

Part of that mismanagement would be disrupting the supply pipelines for every galaxy in the way of fresh warriors and newly produced equipment to build a vanity project.  The Jag's Tau Galaxy just builds on previous follies . . . IIRC all the line warriors were fresh from the sibkos and so were most of the officers- Star Commanders and Star Captains who got those extra kills on their initial Trial of Positions.  So Osis put together a galaxy of his cronies (GalCom & maybe Star Col) along with FNGs- who never saw combat outside of training let alone against the IS.  And for this, every other Cluster in the OZ got no replacement equipment for weeks if not months.  No replacement warriors for any OZ cluster showed up for that same time while they were still weeding out Invasion veterans to be sent back to Clan space or become Exodus Road garrisons.  Then the Jaguar's shipping ability was disrupted because the lift capacity for moving the new Galaxy from the Home Worlds to the IS had to be re-directed.  To get a idea of what this is like, look at what happens with the US MAC when they are retasked to transport disaster relief supplies.  MAC's shipping plans are built out years in advance to ensure not just the supplies get where they are needed but the planes are routed properly so no flight is not carrying as much as possible between locations.  Osis vanity through years of planning and operations -IF the Jag's merchants were allowed to regularize shipping schedules & manifests to the OZ- out the window so he could surprise the IS with a new galaxy for Grand Council boasting points.

Osis may have been a tactical genius . . . but he has long been proven a strategic simpleton.

Finally, they had no fat . . . Easiest way to point to the failure of Jaguar raiding and production is that their most important world was defended by mechs only on paper.  They lacked old Star League designs, C series (Atlas, MAD, TBolt, RFL, Shad, etc) from salvage, or even Clan standard mech designs to field in the Home Worlds.  Immediately after Tukayyid, the other Invaders might have had to dust off their caches of old designs for replacements as the saKhans raided secondline and garrison clusters for the better machines.  The Jaguars did not have the replacements to assign to their Home World garrisons, instead they just took the Clan mechs to reassign into the OZs.  You bring up mechs assigned to the Jaguars Heart . . . but by that point Osis had months of production, even with Jaguars' lower production output, to supply a new cluster.  One way, it could be read in all that time the Jaguars production was only enough to build a cluster in the space of 6 months (first strikes of Bird Dog).

[Crimson Dynamo]

Broadly true. You also left out the Toorima...

First I'd ever heard of them!

Source?

Wars of Reaving page 153, which I'll repeat for Colt's benefit as well...

The ProtoMech project is the most obvious example.
After Clan Smoke Jaguar debuted the system during its
failed defense of Huntress, the Society—unaware of the
project due to extremely low-level involvement with the
Clan—quickly ascertained its tactical benefits.

And now let's see about the rest...

The Jaguars lacked the ability to replace losses in the OZ for several reasons.

First, lack luster production . . . yes, they have been backfilled with a lot of production locations (to explain how other factions ended up with them in Wars of Possession) but we get no idea about how large the locations are (# of lines) or production rates.  WE do get a historical friction between laborers and the warrior caste . . . and it can be surmised the production did not perform at the same level as the other invading Clans.

What does backfilled mean? You mean expanded upon in later works? Does this disqualify the information somehow?

This leaves the two factions not covered in the pair of FMs as bearing the brunt of the Shark efforts- Jags & Cats . . . which are going to have trade routes near each other.

What part of the Shark write-up are you referencing? In FMWC, I'm noting just a passing reference to "harrassing the shipping of other Clans" under the "Dangerous Waters" section.  But because the other Clans weren't noted to be inconvenienced, that must mean the other Clans had to have been? Where is it stated the Cats and/or Jaguars were singled out? Both those Clans of whom were known to have larger than average fleets, with the Cats having one of the biggest, that weren't otherwise known to be doing much.

You say it speaks to their ability?  It speaks to their abilities poorly.

Mmm, I don't think you've really been reading what I've been saying. For a couple posts now, I've acknowledged that the Jaguars had mighty struggles rebuilding after Tukayyid, but that they were rebuilding as the formation of a completely brand new Galaxy, expansion of two existing Galaxies, and reestablishing an understrength Alpha as well as keeping the other Clusters active very plainly shows. People like to point out these struggles, but take great umbrage apparently when you consider what they had to have going on in the Homeworlds to make that possible to either produce this material for themselves, OR, as is the classic image, take it from other Clans. That ability is wholly dependent on having capable units that can defeat the capable units of other Clans, and defend your own stuff. There are a few places that suggest that the Jaguars had these units up to their Annihilation, but it's also said outright that the Jaguar's Heart was everything they had left.

How efficiently this was or was not done, or how it could have been optimized towards a greater showing is not the intent of my position. These were the Jaguars after all.

The Falcons recovered and built up a string of very large supply caches in their forward OZ holdings while also converting IS factories to produce Clan mechs.  The Falcons also had scrapyards of IS machines they were harvesting for parts.  The Wolves started converting IS factories (Tamar, Satalice, etc) to produce Clan material and Trial'd for or traded (Clint IIC fluff) for enough Clan equipment to build a new 5 cluster galaxy (Tau) in '55 positioned in the OZ without weakening the recovery of other clusters/galaxies.

The Bears were a special case considering their moving, the Falcons didn't see any benefit from Olivetti until 3063 when the Spirit walked off the lines, and I'm not familiar enough with the Wolves and their industry to know when they started updating Tamar's industry. A more accurate Wolf comparison would be how they recovered from the heavy losses in Refusal War. What I'm reading in FMCC doesn't exactly put their anticipated recovery on page 139 a world above what the Jaguars were managing, by hook or by crook.

Compare that to the Jags who broke their logistics pipelines to build a 3 cluster galaxy in '57 which brings up the next point . . 

It didn't break anything. I spoke of this in an above post.

Everything built in the Home Worlds, packed on a ship and sent 6 months away.  Arrogance causing the waste of captured machines- if the Jags had used the C series of IS machines, or even repaired captured old Star League designs they could have supplemented their garrison clusters.  Sure some were smuggled or brought to Huntress under false pretenses- but that would be a drop in the bucket to what was left rusting in the Inner Sphere . . . makes you wonder if the Dracs recovered piles of wrecks they could refurbish.  What were the Jaguars doing with all the resources the OZ could have produced?  Other Clans put the OZs to use feeding their war machines but we get nothing in Bird Dog/Bulldog about capturing IS support facilities to deny them to the Jags.

So, I would note that there is no shortage of SLDF designs that appear under the Jaguar list on the MUL, nor are they unknown from things like the HTP Luzerne RATs. From what I can find, the MUL does not actually list the (C) series BattleMechs as being very widespread at all. The Jaguars were known to utilize their OZ worlds particularly towards the production of munitions, like in the case of the mismanagement of some of Nykvarn's laborers transferred away from their fields to work in munitions factories, leaving them unable to provide the necessary grains that fortify the populace's immune systems against a local yearly plague. Much of the OZ's woe came from the SJs repurposing non-essential population to munition production without compensation. Or the production of the Sai S-4C on Schuyler during the occupation. Which reminds me, I wonder if the Jaguars made much use of the Achilles yard over Schuyler...

And for this, every other Cluster in the OZ got no replacement equipment for weeks if not months.  No replacement warriors for any OZ cluster...

So, the benefits and values or lack thereof of Tau's personnel composition aside, is the bit I've quoted above directly referenced somewhere? I am now curious if I've missed something somewhere.

Osis may have been a tactical genius . . . but he has long been proven a strategic simpleton.

Simpleton is being a bit unkind, but grand strategy was not a strong point, certainly. Won't argue that.

Finally, they had no fat . . . Easiest way to point to the failure of Jaguar raiding and production is that their most important world was defended by mechs only on paper.  They lacked old Star League designs, C series (Atlas, MAD, TBolt, RFL, Shad, etc) from salvage, or even Clan standard mech designs to field in the Home Worlds.  Immediately after Tukayyid, the other Invaders might have had to dust off their caches of old designs for replacements as the saKhans raided secondline and garrison clusters for the better machines.  The Jaguars did not have the replacements to assign to their Home World garrisons, instead they just took the Clan mechs to reassign into the OZs.  You bring up mechs assigned to the Jaguars Heart . . . but by that point Osis had months of production, even with Jaguars' lower production output, to supply a new cluster.  One way, it could be read in all that time the Jaguars production was only enough to build a cluster in the space of 6 months (first strikes of Bird Dog).

Again, I am not certain where much of this comes from. They did not lack any of those machines, though again, the MUL doesn't really show a great circulation of the (C) models I did look up. How do you think the Jaguars had a Touman after Tukayyid and Luthien? They would have HAD to have cherry-picked men and material from other commands to get Alpha and Beta ready for Tukayyid after Luthien, again when Alpha was crippled to the point of deactivation and Beta taking heavy losses on Tukayyid, while Delta made it worse with their heavy raids after Tukayyid. Despite this, the RAT for the second-line 4th PGC in Kappa Galaxy in the Luzerne historical has OmniMechs to be rolled (though it's reputation as the finest of all Jaguar PGCs might make it a special case), the 2nd Jaguar Regulars from Zeta Galaxy had Omnis when they raided McAlister during BULLDOG in The Dragon Roars, and even the forgotten Trinary on Wayside had a few Omnis in it in Forever Faithful.

And I recall having a recent discussion with you where it was pointed out the Jaguars came up with some OmniMechs and Clan BattleMechs to supplement the Huntress garrison as we saw in the Twilight of the Clans scenario book.

I am enjoying this immensely. Haven't had a need to look through and read up on all these sources in a long time. How I love BattleTech and it's volumes of lore.

[Talen5000]

Um, the Society was absolutely embedded in the Jaguars- they had Aiden's genetic material on hand as found by Horse IIRC.  It was one of the big early clues about a Clan-wide conspiracy being in place.

Horse found Aidens DNA. Everything else is conjecture. He simply made assumptions based on his belief the Jaguars should not have access to it.

As for the inter-Clan conspiracy it was evidence of....The Wars Of Reaving write up on the Society shows this..

"The ProtoMech project is the most obvious example.
After Clan Smoke Jaguar debuted the system during its
failed defense of Huntress, the Society—unaware of the
project due to extremely low-level involvement with the
Clan—quickly ascertained its tactical benefits"

The Society was involved with the Jaguars, but apparently to the point of near non-existence.

Ultimately, Horse objected to the Jaguars having the DNA, and assumed it was illegal. It may been...it may not have been. His belief in what Setania told him is not evidence. But even of it were, an extremely low level of infiltration is not the same as no infiltration.

[Mohammed As`Zaman Bey]

   All this discussion still begs the question: Why save the Jags at all? Their flaws isolated them among the Clans and earned the fury of the Inner Sphere. Their assets, wasted on a failed Clan, went to better factions. If people just want more Clans, why not have the current Clans fracture into thirty-odd mini-Clans?

"I, Baldric, of Clan Rubber Duckie challenge Clan Inflatable Woman for control of the Wonky Willy Chocolate Factory!"
"Sod off!"

[Maingunnery]

   All this discussion still begs the question: Why save the Jags at all? Their flaws isolated them among the Clans and earned the fury of the Inner Sphere. There assets, wasted on a failed Clan, went to better factions. If people just want more Clans, why not have the current Clans fracture into thirty-odd mini-Clans?

"I, Baldric, of Clan Rubber Duckie challenge Clan Inflatable Woman for control of the Wonky Willy Chocolate Factory!"
"Sod off!"

To reform the Clan according to ones own desires? Perhaps like with the Stone Lions.

But personally in universe I would rather trail for all the Mongoose assets.

[Mohammed As`Zaman Bey]

To reform the Clan according to ones own desires? Perhaps like with the Stone Lions.

But personally in universe I would rather trail for all the Mongoose assets.

  Kind of late to save them from themselves...

[Maingunnery]

  Kind of late to save them from themselves...

Indeed, but a 'hard reset' to CSJ would likely be necessary in order to fix some of the fundamental problems.

But successfully restarting/reforming a Clan would be close to the ultimate bragging rights in the Clans.

[Zeruel]

I think it would have been interesting to see the Jaguars survive, become a shadow of their former selves, but still be a viable threat to others

maybe I'm overlooking something, but I can't really think of any factions where they are introduced as powerful and aggressive, but is reduced to a small size and yet remain a relatively strong group, without going extinct...maybe they can't regain their prominence in size and territory, but due to their aggressiveness they are able to maintain what they have and ward off threats

obviously that's not very realistic as attrition or overwhelming numbers should finish them off in that state (like has happened to other factions)

[Mohammed As`Zaman Bey]

To reform the Clan according to ones own desires? Perhaps like with the Stone Lions.

  You mean, make a totally different Clan and just call them Smoke Jaguar...

[Crimson Dynamo]

   All this discussion still begs the question: Why save the Jags at all? Their flaws isolated them among the Clans and earned the fury of the Inner Sphere. Their assets, wasted on a failed Clan, went to better factions. If people just want more Clans, why not have the current Clans fracture into thirty-odd mini-Clans?

Oof. Your factional digs are usually more nuanced and witty and enjoyable. Also, any particular reason at this juncture you'd like to try and steer the conversation back to it's original subject from 18 pages and almost 5 years ago?

Indeed, but a 'hard reset' to CSJ would likely be necessary in order to fix some of the fundamental problems.

The Jaguars as a Clan, as we knew them, died in 3060. The remnants automatically became something else after this. The Fidelis have become something very different. I don't think anyone could realistically expect that a reformed Clan Smoke Jaguar would be a continuation of the mindsets, attitudes, and (wicked) ways of the Clan that came before. They'd be a continuation of the Fidelis, Trent's Smoke Jaguars, and his ideas on the Clan have always been... interesting. Although, the Jaguars as a Clan just don't seem as evil anymore with the actions of almost everyone else as we saw/are seeing in the Jihad, the Wars of Reaving, and the Dark Age...

If you mean additional coverage of the Jags in future products from before they were Annihilated, I don't think they need to change a thing. Nothing will save them when their hour comes in 3060, and what you may call 'fundamental problems' are pretty much the character of the Jaguars. We've seen a shift in tone as in the Era Reports and some of the TROs where the Jaguars are written as something other than Silver Age comicbook villains and it didn't break BattleTech, so I think they could easily get away with just keeping on doing what they've been doing.

I think it would have been interesting to see the Jaguars survive, become a shadow of their former selves, but still be a viable threat to others

The Blood Spirits leap to mind after the WoR, and they weren't able to make it in Clan space. I doubt the Jaguars would have fared any better. They'd have had to have sought their fortunes elsewhere to have a chance, like a forgotten Deep Periphery base far away from the other Clans and in total secrecy... ;)

maybe I'm overlooking something, but I can't really think of any factions where they are introduced as powerful and aggressive, but is reduced to a small size and yet remain a relatively strong group, without going extinct...maybe they can't regain their prominence in size and territory, but due to their aggressiveness they are able to maintain what they have and ward off threats

Depending on what you mean by "relatively strong," the Capellans might fit the bill from the 4th SW to the Capellan Crusades/DA, as might the Taurians in the Jihad/post-Jihad years. Not having the product, it sounds as though the Scorpions figured things out with their empire in their new turning point product since we saw them in WoR and ISP3.

[Zeruel]

The Blood Spirits leap to mind after the WoR, and they weren't able to make it in Clan space. I doubt the Jaguars would have fared any better. They'd have had to have sought their fortunes elsewhere to have a chance, like a forgotten Deep Periphery base far away from the other Clans and in total secrecy... ;)

Depending on what you mean by "relatively strong," the Capellans might fit the bill from the 4th SW to the Capellan Crusades/DA, as might the Taurians in the Jihad/post-Jihad years. Not having the product, it sounds as though the Scorpions figured things out with their empire in their new turning point product since we saw them in WoR and ISP3.

the Blood Spirits and Capellans definitely came to mind, but as you said, the Spirits didn't make it...It would have been interesting to see a broken faction that is able to persist
and the CapCon kind of started out as an underdog, only in a historical view were they larger, whereas the Jaguars started out as like the big bad Clan

[Mohammed As`Zaman Bey]

any particular reason at this juncture you'd like to try and steer the conversation back to it's original subject from 18 pages and almost 5 years ago?

  Resurrecting Smoke Jaguar has evolved into speculation about Jag refugees getting their acts together and appealing upon deaf ears. The Clans didn't want another iteration of CSJ any more than people wanted Martin and Lewis to get back together (that would be Dean Martin and Jerry Lewis to you young folks).
  CSJ were the Hollywood-esque black hat villains to which American culture is accustomed. They were unlikable bullies who eventually committed enough unforced errors to get written out of the script as a viable faction.
  The Clans are rather flaky with handling renegade forces; Even CSJ treated Wolf's Dragoons as normal, IS opponents on Luthien. Even the Wolves in Exile didn't receive uniform treatment from the various Clans.

  For those who want CSJ to make a comeback, how would you envision them? What changes would you make, and what would you prefer to keep?
 
 
 

[CJC070]

I am not a Smoke Jaguar, however the I think they got more interesting after the fall.  Some joined the Brotherhood of Randis, others founded the Fidelis, the rest found the death they hoped for or found new lives to build.  I hope they do not build a new clan more to the fact that the Clans I find more interesting are the ones who have adapted to the world outside of the Homeworld Clans.

[Talen5000]

For those who want CSJ to make a comeback, how would you envision them? What changes would you make, and what would you prefer to keep?

That's difficult to say.

One of the problems/advantages with the Jags is that they never got a write up on the culture, their way of doing things, their view of their history.

We can only make inferences. The Jags have apparently had several falls from power and had to claw their way back to the top...but there is very little in the way of info about any of these supposed falls. There is some indication the early Jags were hamstrung by rebellions across their territories after Klondike, slowing their expansion, but recent info state the Clan was expansionist. Lincoln Osis has been described by both Clan and IS sources as a tactical and strategic genius, so why was his performance as Khan so lacklustre?

Answers for all these and many, many more questions can of course be provided, but without a definite source, they would...at best...be inferences.

That allows Jag fans to interpret the available info as they see fit. My inference (above) that the Jags were heavily into science and engineering might seem reasonable based on the info we have, but I' m sure others would disagree and would prefer a different take. Similarly, there are areas where the Jags appear to diverge significantly from standard Clan norms. Cyberware for example. Most Clans would eschew an empowered warrior, and would craft limbs as a replacement whereas the Jags handed out a limb upgrade as a matter of routine. The one mention (that I recall) of a dedicated hospital ship amongst the Clans is with the Jaguars. A lot of players, and even some IU, believe the Jags did not use freebirth troops. They did. They were one of the few Clans which maintained dedicated artillery units, and had little qualms about deviating significantly from standard Clan formations...the largest Trinary formation given had, IIRC, 9 stars. You get hints of these little quirks but no real background info to give them context, or a framework.

The question about what Jag fans want saved therefore depends on how you see them. Are they simple black and white Space Nazis...or are they more nuanced? How are they similar to other Clans and, just as important, how are they different?

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

I don't know about other sources, but in the Twilight of the Clans novels, Lincoln was described as being a tactical genius but not particularly skilled at strategic-level operations, which was a liability for someone of his rank because it to him micromanaging things.