(New) Clan Smoke Jaguar: Once More With Feeling

[Fire Scorpion IIC]

There's the chance that the nuJags have learned from their time in the Republic and are a lot less Clan Hardass this time around.  People grow and change, and their time as the Fidelis shouldn't just be forgotten with their restoration.

Watch the revived Smoke Jaguar clan be one of the more liberal Clans, that ought to be interesting to see.

They definitely learned a lesson, if memory serves me their current Khan is freeborn and they have been acting rationally for a century now

Granted it's not that complicated lesson and many other Clans learned it without issues but Old Jags were so unbelievably pigheaded that it was simply impossible for them to even begin to learn it and they had to be torched to the ground before the leftovers could start to learn

Franklin Osis told them which mistakes to avoid, they ignored his words and got what was coming to them

I assume that New Jags opened a history book and read it once or twice considering their current mentality

And like I said, if anyone even touches Fidelis the New Jags will go full Old Jags on whoever did it

[tassa_kay]

if memory serves me their current Khan is freeborn

Prohaska Moon's genefather (not father) is Paul Moon, so she's a trueborn.

The old jaguars is why I do not like the new jaguars existing at all. So no, better not to revive the old Jaguars. Not in a hundred novels. Jaguars are one of the reasons why I find the whole clans (all of them) distasteful to put it mildly. I was very sad for the narrative when the new jaguars were introduced for this very reason. Because they brought one of the worst clan paradigms back into the story.

I'm confused why you'd come post in their fan thread if you don't like them.

[Blkbr2020]

This. Their history from Forever Faithful to Hour of the Wolf is going to make them a very, very different version of a Clan people than the Jags that took out Turtle Bay.

Everyone's mileage may vary on what they like about the current storyline but I am very, very stoked for the nuJags. Hm, maybe less stoked to call them that though lmao...

Yeah if they keep the same base philosophy as the Fedelis as far as society and structure they will be a bit more liberal on class structure.....but perhaps more willing to skirt strict honor rules in combat?

Once they established the colony on Wayside the warriors had to adjust big time to help build the colony to survive. Technicians / scientists contributed a lot in order to invent the high end computer components they were selling before the epilogue.

I'm looking forward to seeing what the Jaguars society looks like with all those lessons learned from their near extinction. They took combined arms to heart at least from the dark age novels.

One question I have is if they still have their remaining warship from the exodus?

In Forever Faithful they left the home worlds with 2 warships, one was the Streaking Mist and that went back to the Jaguar. The Fidelis lost a republic warship to the wolves.......it was originally the Bordeaux and renamed the Flatus. So not the warship the Jaguars escaped with prior to evolving into the Fedelis.

 Could they still have the warship mothballed somewhere? Or was it lost in the Jihad? My memory is not great on this subject but I'm not sure if the warship class or name was given in Forever Faithful?

[tassa_kay]

The other WarShip, Hidden Destiny, is indeed unaccounted for post-Forever Faithful.

[rebs]

I expect the nuJags will often consider the blunders of the oldJags (at least privately in their own councils) whenever they make a major decision, and probably for many minor decisions as well. 

[wantec]

Prohaska Moon's genefather (not father) is Paul Moon, so she's a trueborn.

I'm confused why you'd come post in their fan thread if you don't like them.

In the novel Children of Kerensky when Alaric meets with Paul Moon he explains that over the 3 prior decades they had begun using iron wombs and Clan breeding programs to create new trueborns in anticipation of an ilClan and ilKhan who could restore Clan Smoke Jaguar.

[Geg]

There's the chance that the nuJags have learned from their time in the Republic and are a lot less Clan Hardass this time around.  People grow and change, and their time as the Fidelis shouldn't just be forgotten with their restoration.

Watch the revived Smoke Jaguar clan be one of the more liberal Clans, that ought to be interesting to see.

The lack of marriage and the Clan use of enclaves, are reason enough to justify keeping them from fully being assimilated into the IS warrior elite.  With the rise of the ilClan (and maybe the deaths of the non-warrior Fidelis on Tau Ceti IV), now seams like a perfect time for the clanners to look back and try to interpret the Way of the Clans for the 32nd century.

We don't need the a mustached twirling Nicolai Malthus like Jags from the 90s, but since the death of Malvina, (and assuming the Horses are the target of the Final Annihilation) then all of the IS Clans are all fairly cookie cutter again.  Getting some different value systems, different version of what is "right" is a good way to gin up those grey vs gray conflicts without good guy / bad guy dynamics.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Given the events of Elements of Treason: Honor, I doubt that the Horses are going to be Annihilated.  An attempt might be made, but the way things are changing internally for them looks like they're going to be a hard nut to crack.

[JAMES_PRYDE]

The lack of marriage and the Clan use of enclaves, are reason enough to justify keeping them from fully being assimilated into the IS warrior elite.  With the rise of the ilClan (and maybe the deaths of the non-warrior Fidelis on Tau Ceti IV), now seams like a perfect time for the clanners to look back and try to interpret the Way of the Clans for the 32nd century.

We don't need the a mustached twirling Nicolai Malthus like Jags from the 90s, but since the death of Malvina, (and assuming the Horses are the target of the Final Annihilation) then all of the IS Clans are all fairly cookie cutter again.  Getting some different value systems, different version of what is "right" is a good way to gin up those grey vs gray conflicts without good guy / bad guy dynamics.

Yeah, I am a fan of (Clan) Fusion States, as it shows growth, development and evolution, both in fiction, and RPG, and how time has it's effects similar to real life too.

I am eager to see how Jiyi's Falcons develop. I could even get behind even, perhaps 20 years down the track, as it was aired here, that all the "new" states of the Hinterlands, maybe minus the Lyran one, would one day merge into a new "Tamar Pact", where each is still sovereign, and part of the governing council. The Horses are after all a big threat to the Hinterlands

But yes, back to Smoke Jaguar, I enjoyed learning about the Fidels, the former Invasion Jags being humbled and taught a big lesson. It will be interesting to see how the nuJags are, will they learn from history ? How much of The Fidels will play a "parent" to them ? Pun intended. I almost feel (dare I say) Warden vibes

[Metallgewitter]

Wouldn't that be a big twist: the Wolves are now the warmongers and the reborn Jaguars the conscience or perhaps brakes of the invaders.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

I mean, the Wolves have been warmongers since 3057.

[tassa_kay]

I mean, the Wolves have been warmongers since 3057.

They've been warmongers since 2821.

[Metallgewitter]

They've been warmongers since 2821.

Then please explain why the Wolves tried to stop Operation Revival. Doesn't sound like Warmongers to me

[Scotty]

To be Clan is to be a warmonger, it is the purpose of the entire society.

[CJC070]

Wouldn't that be a big twist: the Wolves are now the warmongers and the reborn Jaguars the conscience or perhaps brakes of the invaders.

I think you should rephrase the Wolves are the arrogant conquerors and the reborn Jaguars are the thinkers and planners.  I hope we see this when Alaric finally goes off the rails.

[Geg]

To be Clan is to be a warmonger, it is the purpose of the entire society.

Trial Monger?

[tassa_kay]

Trial Monger?

Nope, Scotty was right the first time.

[Metallgewitter]

I kind of disagree: the Clans are a martial society but they fight battles because the merchants tell them to. They don't go out to conquer just because.
Even Revival was more a "We need more resources" not a "WAR WAR WAR" decision. Though the more hawkish clans were leading the charge

[tassa_kay]

I kind of disagree: the Clans are a martial society but they fight battles because the merchants tell them to. They don't go out to conquer just because.
Even Revival was more a "We need more resources" not a "WAR WAR WAR" decision. Though the more hawkish clans were leading the charge

Whether they make war because they like it or because they need resources doesn't change the fact that the Clans are, by the very definition of the term, warmongers. They thrive in conflict, and suffer without it (see: the Clans under Stone's peace, the Homeworld Clans post-WoR, etc.). It's simply who they are as a society and culture. Nicholas himself recognized that when he set the Wolverines up for destruction.

[ColBosch]

It should be noted that the vast majority of major Clan characters are portrayed bucking their own system, be they heroes or villains. The Way of the Clans is absolutely meant to be as realistic as chivalry or bushido, that is, few really follow its principles.

[Scotty]

Imagine a Clan that does not make war.

It does not exist.  It is a contradiction in terms.  A Clan must always be fighting something.  If it is not another Clan or IS power, it is itself.  If it is neither itself nor another power, it is dead.

[tassa_kay]

It should be noted that the vast majority of major Clan characters are portrayed bucking their own system, be they heroes or villains. The Way of the Clans is absolutely meant to be as realistic as chivalry or bushido, that is, few really follow its principles.

Mostly true, but besides the point.

Imagine a Clan that does not make war.

It does not exist.  It is a contradiction in terms.  A Clan must always be fighting something.  If it is not another Clan or IS power, it is itself.  If it is neither itself nor another power, it is dead.

Dead-on, Scotty.

Just look at the Homeworld Clans post-WoR. Without an external enemy to fight, they started fighting each other to such a degree that their leadership had to send some of them away to the Hanseatic League just to bleed off the mounting internal pressure. Or the OZ Clans during Stone's Peace, who chafed under the lack of combat opportunities and scaling back of their toumans. Or the Clan citizens of the Republic, who also resented Stone's enforced peace and were among the first to get buck when the Blackout hit. And just look at the absolute dumpster fire that the RasDom turned into recently.

But that's what happens when you build a society that revolves around using conflict to resolve pretty much everything and then puts the warriors at the top of the food chain. Making war is baked into the very foundations of who they are.

[Fire Scorpion IIC]

Every faction of any note in Battletech is a warmonger

Ones who aren't got erased during Age of War, handful remaining are boxed into being pacifist out of fiscal reasons not idealism

Difference between Clans and IS nations is that Clans are comfortable with putting warmongering in official paperwork while IS folks still like to play the good old Kabuki theater about everyone else being warmonger and them alone being peaceful

Leaders of peace loving nations don't gift other full sized nations to their brides as wedding gifts (not without risking at least some backlash from their peace loving societies)

To say nothing of genocidal wars that go on and on and on for centuries with only pause being the result of material shortage instead of someone somewhere being tired of the whole thing

In short, few peace lovers but plenty of hypocrites

Expecting to find actual peace lovers in Battletech is like expecting to find Timber Wolf omnimech parked in Hogwarts garage, it just doesn't gel with the environment

 

[Scotty]

You miss the point.  It is not that they are not pacifist, which as a label is generally laughable to try to apply to any particular faction at any given time. It's that the Clan social construct, the whole thing, crumbles in the absence of constant fighting.

It's the difference between a knife and a gun.  A knife can be used to commit violence, and some knives are better at it or more useful for it than others.  A gun is a tool whose purpose is exclusively violence.  The Clans are a gun on a societal level.

[rebs]

Weapons are threats of violence that only sometimes manifest this threat of violence, hence mutually assured destruction.


We're all still here.  We live in peace under threat of violence.

[Church14]

I really wonder where the writing team will take the nuJags going forward. Their resurgence as a clan was hamfisted into existence by dropping all characterization of the Fidelis, doing a cultural 180, and having them throw themselves at Alaric’s feet.

I have no idea if the nuJags will get another reversal and become some unique clan-Republic moral hybrid, or if they’ll become Alaric yes-men like the snippets in HotW hinted at, or if they’ll become something else entirely. I’m just hoping it’s well written.

[Scotty]

I feel confident in suggesting that characterizations from HOTW are up for new leadership given Pardoe isn't behind that particular wheel anymore.

I'm unsure exactly what I'm hoping to get.  Clan wetwork specialists with visibility and sanction; elite among elites combined arms small unit tactics; a warrior monk sort of professional soldiery devoted to excellence in all forms of conflict but without the cultural trappings of bushido; same old Jags except they've (correctly) identified that everyone hated them because they were ****** to civilian castes and just having Wolf do all the civilian shit for them; normal Clan warriors with supreme loyalty to the ilClan but very specially not to Alaric.

There are a lot of different ways it could do.

[Church14]

I feel confident in suggesting that characterizations from HOTW are up for new leadership given Pardoe isn't behind that particular wheel anymore.

I'm unsure exactly what I'm hoping to get.  Clan wetwork specialists with visibility and sanction; elite among elites combined arms small unit tactics; a warrior monk sort of professional soldiery devoted to excellence in all forms of conflict but without the cultural trappings of bushido; same old Jags except they've (correctly) identified that everyone hated them because they were ****** to civilian castes and just having Wolf do all the civilian shit for them; normal Clan warriors with supreme loyalty to the ilClan but very specially not to Alaric.

There are a lot of different ways it could do.

The small unit clan wetworks path does appeal to me. Preserves a lot of the Fidelis tactics

[tassa_kay]

Whatever path TPTB put the Jaguars on, I just hope to see some growth and not have them simply revert to type. The Jaguars went through one hell of a crucible to get to where they are, and I don't want to see them backslide. As long as it's fun and, more importantly, consistent, I'll be a happy Jaguar fan.

[Blkbr2020]

Whatever path TPTB put the Jaguars on, I just hope to see some growth and not have them simply revert to type. The Jaguars went through one hell of a crucible to get to where they are, and I don't want to see them backslide. As long as it's fun and, more importantly, consistent, I'll be a happy Jaguar fan.

This^

As long as the path forward is reasonable I'll be happy. If the reborn Jaguars backslide into the Jaguars of old I'll be annoyed. Because what would then be the point of the almost century long journey and change? All things aside on certain writers I enjoyed Surrender Your Dreams, and even more so Forever Faithful. I did not like the Jags up until I read Exodus Road. After that novel I was left hoping that more of their warriors had been like Trent and could feel his pain as he watched his vision of what he thought the Jaguars represented be crushed.

In theory the new Jaguars will have learned lessons on poor treatment of the lower castes (especially after having to work so closely just to survive when starting the colony on Wayside). And seeing as they damn near worshiped Paul Moon if they stray too far from what he built I'd be shocked.