General Pathfinder mechanics questions thread.

[Bedwyr]

I guess I'll be asking a lot of questions of the experts here as I learn the mechanics, so might as well make a more on-going thread.

Anyhow, first up: leveling up. How do hit dice work? The book is really opaque about this; maybe they assume I'm an old D&D campaigner. If I have a PC with 1d8 at level 1 and the level up, do I automatically roll more hitpoints with 2d8? And then 3d8 at level 3? Or does it stay 1d8 the whole time?

[Deathrider6]

  Hit points are fairly easy. At level one you get your maximum hit points based off of the following: HP=1D8 +Constitution Bonus.

At each level after first you do the following. You roll the hit die type (1D8) and add in the Constitution Bonus.

The example above hopefully helps. If you are feeling really natsty to up the challenge your initial hit points can be rolled.

[Mattlov]

Yeah, I'll throw an explanation in a little longer form.

1st Level:  Max Hit Points.  Hit Die + Constitution Bonus.  For this example, let's say you have a CON bonus of +2.
So at 1st level, you have 10 HP.

2nd level:  you have your previous 10 HP, then add 1d8+2.  If you roll a 6, you gain 8 more HP with bonus.  2nd level HP: 18.

Now as a bonus, if your Constitution goes up enough to increase your bonus is RETROACTIVE for all previous hit dice.

And because the question is asked, this retro-activity does NOT apply to Skill points if your Intelligence increases.

Another little tidbit, read up on the "Favored Class" bonus for leveling.

[monbvol]

To complicate things more it is an acceptable alternative to just take average at each level.

So for example at level 2 you could take 4+Con bonus in HP.  So using the same +2 bonus from above it would be perfectly acceptable to just take 6 HP and not roll at all.  At 3rd level it would be acceptable to take 7 for true average.

[Bedwyr]

So maybe where I was reading "additional hit dice" plural was in reference to NPCs and creatures, not PCs?

[monbvol]

Sort of.

NPCs don't get first HD maxed and the Beastiary entries assume average HP and no rolling.

[Bedwyr]

Sort of.

NPCs don't get first HD maxed and the Beastiary entries assume average HP and no rolling.

But that's where I was getting the whole "multiple hit dice" interpretation from right? Because they're assuming I'm putting in a higher level creature (or rolling a higher level PC) so obviously you have to roll the hit die multiple times. There is no scenario where hit dice become a series (1 to infinity, n).

[guardiandashi]

well kinda

you have npc char/moster it has 2d8 hp (8) or 2d8 (12) hp with a +2 con mod

for example you could also have a moster with say 12d12 hp or whatever

the standard interpitation and syntax is
number of dice (d) dice type
eg 1d4
2d6
4d8
7d10
10d12

[Bedwyr]

well kinda

you have npc char/moster it has 2d8 hp (8) or 2d8 (12) hp with a +2 con mod

for example you could also have a monster with say 12d12 hp or whatever

If you take that 12d12 monster two levels higher than published you have to roll 36d12, correct?

Ok that was thoughtless. I should have said 14d12.

[guardiandashi]

depends, typically a 12d12 monster is roughly a 12th level monster if it has no specials, in that case bumping it up 2 levels would only make it 14d12  of course only special monsters barbarians, dragons and (very few) others get d12 hit dice

a good rule of thumb is the hit dice is a starting point on determining level, in the D&D 3.0 the rules for playing monsters as chars, (and some of the tweeks needed such as ECL Effective Character Level) factor in adjusting "level" sometimes its easy sometimes its really hard  d&D 3.5 partially addressed this in the monsters manual by assigning every monster a ecl of course in some (many) cases I would argue they typically "over compensated" to make the monster races LESS attractive to play

[monbvol]

Actually to be clear ECL information was not included in any D&D 3.5 Monster Manual I have.  It was included in the expansion book Savage Species though.

Pathfinder's solution still has a few issues I find but does largely work better.  The Challenge Rating is the Character Level if you want to allow your players the option of selecting monsters.  Since in theory the Challenge Rating is supposed to indicate that the creature will force the players to expend roughly 25% of their spells, HP, potions, scrolls, or other combat related consumables it thus stands to reason that since the ideal party is 4 players in size it should thus work out roughly the same.  The main fault I find is that not all Challenge Ratings are created equal.

[Bedwyr]

Ok, next question:

With a normal melee weapon, you can
strike any opponent within 5 feet. (Opponents within 5 feet
are considered adjacent to you.) Some melee weapons have
reach, as indicated in their descriptions. With a typical
reach weapon, you can strike opponents 10 feet away, but
you can’t strike adjacent foes (those within 5 feet).

That makes it sound like you can't hit most enemies in adjacent squares. You have to be 2 squares away. Which sounds silly. Plus the longsword has a 3.5' reach. Clarification?

[guardiandashi]

Ok, next question:

That makes it sound like you can't hit most enemies in adjacent squares. You have to be 2 squares away. Which sounds silly. Plus the longsword has a 3.5' reach. Clarification?

yes because most reach weapons are like halberds, pole arms and the like, where unless you "choke up" on the weapon the sharp or smashy bit that is supposed to hit the target is going to be well past anyone in "melee range" ie within 5ft

also its kind of like in battletech where for simplicity sake your opponant is always considered to be in the near edge area of the "space" they occupy even if they wouldn't be

[monbvol]

Afraid it is a little wonky.

Weapons without the Reach quality can hit adjacent enemies.
Weapons with the Reach quality cannot hit adjacent enemies but can hit ones farther away.
Creatures with Natural Reach can hit adjacent targets.

So if your character is of Medium size and equipped with a Longsword you can hit a foe in any of the 8 adjacent squares around him.

Conversely if armed with a Longspear the same character could not strike any foes in the adjacent 8 squares but could strike them in any of the 16 beyond those.

As such there is a reason why you are not likely to see PCs take Reach weapons but you can setup some nasty situations where their inability to fight in close doesn't matter.

[Bedwyr]

How do you handle diagonals for those purposes? 2 diagonals+ really starts to stack up for attacks of opportunity.

[monbvol]

That's the big saving grace of reach weapons since as stated before all targets are treated as being as close as possible.  As such those diagonals with reach weapons are considered threatened and yes that can set up some nastiness.

[Bedwyr]

Ok next question. How do you handle movement through waist deep water? I had the players do double movement cost for difficult terrain and a swim check for each turn in water. Miserable fails usually meant slipping on slime-covered rocks and face planting in the water, prone.

[monbvol]

Sounds like you handled it just about right to me.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Ok next question. How do you handle movement through waist deep water? I had the players do double movement cost for difficult terrain and a swim check for each turn in water. Miserable fails usually meant slipping on slime-covered rocks and face planting in the water, prone.

Usually that would be a Balance or Acrobatics (or whatever the relevant skill Pathfinder uses) check, but a Swim check is also a valid option in that situation.

Of course, any small characters would have been flat out swimming if it was waist deep on a human.

Ever seen a dwarf swim?  There's a lot of thrashing and flailing about, interrupted by occasional bouts of drowning. ;D

[pensiveswetness]

i gotta ask: are you running a home game using PF rules? because if you do games run by PFS (Path Finder Society) sactioned games, there are separt rules to follow... but playing sactioned games means your toon can travel the states with you in all sorts of neat placed and conventions :D

[Bedwyr]

No it's private, but I'll have to look into that sometime. :)

[Bedwyr]

Ok, more questions from another practice session. This is mostly regarding stat blocks from Bestiary and the pregen characters:

1) How does range penalty work? What is my weapon's penalty -0 range and what is its true maximum? We found the stat blocks and the core text a little fuzzy on that.

2) On most stat blocks I see basic attack bonus and then a modifier in a weapon's stats before you get into the parenthetical damage stats. Does the weapon modifier already include the ability/bab/etc in it or do I have to do that manually?

3) When do negative effects (in this case poision) take place, during a character's turn or at the beginning or end of a round?

4) Can someone clarify the poison special ability for a giant spider? It says at the end "cure 1 save". I interpreted that to mean "the poison is removed once the character makes a successful fortitude check." Is that correct?

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Ok, more questions from another practice session. This is mostly regarding stat blocks from Bestiary and the pregen characters:

1) How does range penalty work? What is my weapon's penalty -0 range and what is its true maximum? We found the stat blocks and the core text a little fuzzy on that.

Ranged penalty is applied based on the number of range increments you are from the target.  If the target is less than or equal to the weapon's range increment, you take no penalty.  If it's greater than 1 range increment but less than or equal to 2, you take a -2 penalty on the attack roll.  For each range increment beyond that, you take a cumulative -2 penalty.  Thrown weapons have a maximum range (barring any bonuses from feats, class abilities, or magical effects) of 5 increments, while projectile weapons like bows and slings have a maximum range of 10 increments.

3) When do negative effects (in this case poision) take place, during a character's turn or at the beginning or end of a round?

All effects occur immediately unless otherwise stated in the effect's description.

4) Can someone clarify the poison special ability for a giant spider? It says at the end "cure 1 save". I interpreted that to mean "the poison is removed once the character makes a successful fortitude check." Is that correct?

IIRC, you take the effects again each round (and any previous effects remain) until you successfully save against it, at which point you stop taking any further effects but everything you'd taken until then remain.

[Bedwyr]

Ranged penalty is applied based on the number of range increments you are from the target.  If the target is less than or equal to the weapon's range increment, you take no penalty.  If it's greater than 1 range increment but less than or equal to 2, you take a -2 penalty on the attack roll.  For each range increment beyond that, you take a cumulative -2 penalty.  Thrown weapons have a maximum range (barring any bonuses from feats, class abilities, or magical effects) of 5 increments, while projectile weapons like bows and slings have a maximum range of 10 increments.

Ah, but when I look at the weapon's stats, for instance the dart has a range of 20 ft, or 4 squares. Is that it's absolute range or increment? If absolute, what is its increment? If increment, what is its absolute?

All effects occur immediately unless otherwise stated in the effect's description.

How about on subsequent rounds as with poison (1hp, 4 rounds)? At the beginning or during a player's turn? (I just need to make absolutely sure since it has consequences as d20 doesn't do simultaneity like BT does).

IIRC, you take the effects again each round (and any previous effects remain) until you successfully save against it, at which point you stop taking any further effects but everything you'd taken until then remain.

Oh ok, so Strength damage stays damaged until otherwise healed. It's not removed with the poison.

[guardiandashi]

Ah, but when I look at the weapon's stats, for instance the dart has a range of 20 ft, or 4 squares. Is that it's absolute range or increment? If absolute, what is its increment? If increment, what is its absolute?


How about on subsequent rounds as with poison (1hp, 4 rounds)? At the beginning or during a player's turn? (I just need to make absolutely sure since it has consequences as d20 doesn't do simultaneity like BT does).

Oh ok, so Strength damage stays damaged until otherwise healed. It's not removed with the poison.

for the dart I believe 20ft is the range increment, and since its a thrown weapon its max range is 5 increments or 100 ft

for poison "ticks" I believe it would either be the player or appliers "turn" but not both, just be consistant

the damage from the poison would stay until removed/healed

[Bedwyr]

Can I reiterate question 2)? Should I add the base attack bonus *and* the weapon bonus or just the weapon bonus because the BAB is already figured in?

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Any specified attacks in a monster or character's stat blocks should be fully calculated already: a 7th level  Fighter NPC has a BAB of +7 and attack +1 Longsword, the attack bonus for that ought to be the full bonus including BAB, relevant ability score modifiers, feats, enhancement bonus to the weapon, size modifiers, and anything else except for extremely specialized bonuses (like a Dwarf's racial bonus to attack rolls against Orcs).

[monbvol]

Just to clarify the above example the total bonus added to the d20 is +8(+7 BAB and +1 from the Longsword).

While talking about to hit numbers I think it may be a good idea to cover the four possible AC states.

Normal AC-Applies to most melee and ranged attacks.  If you need to calculate it by hand everyone starts with a base of 10 the order of operation past this point really doesn't matter much as long as you remember to add everything up.

Touch AC-Mostly comes into play with Wizards and spell effects.  The beastiary entries should already have this calculated for you but if you need to do it by hand it again starts with the base of 10 but you only add luck, deflection, dodge, size, and dexterity bonuses(dexterity and size penalties still apply).

Flat Footed AC-Like normal AC it applies to most ranged and melee attacks where the attacker acts before the Flat Footed character.  This too is pre-calculated in entries but if for some reason you need to do it by hand calculate as normal AC but do not include dexterity and dodge modifiers.

Touch Flat Footed AC-This is not as hard to achieve of a state as you might think.  Just takes getting the drop on someone with a spell or spell like ability.  This is not pre-calculated in any entry I've ever seen and probably should be based on how often I manage to achieve it playing as a spell caster.  Much like Touch except no dexterity bonus(but a penalty still applies as with Touch AC) or dodge bonus.