Author Topic: Jennifer Winson do the Clans know her history (Read 3727 times)

Precentor Scorpio · « **on:** 18 May 2018, 10:43:00 »

Just wondering if the Clans know her original history, or if her legacy is desired because she was married to Nicholas and is considered one of the founders of Clan society.

Luciora · « **Reply #1 on:** 18 May 2018, 10:52:45 »

People knew, and weren't telling. The only thing we know is a rumor she might be a lost Cameron. And not related to Kirk. (I think. ;D)

Gaiiten · « **Reply #2 on:** 18 May 2018, 12:35:45 »

Ihmo, it is very obvious that she was the bastard daughter of Richard Cameron who had raped his younger sister Helena.
So the being an incest child.

Frabby · « **Reply #3 on:** 18 May 2018, 17:41:20 »

There's basically three layers here:

1) She was not "Jennifer Winson". Jerome Winson didn't have a sister. Most Clanners in the first generation knew, but they followed Nicholas in faking her faux identity. Two or three generations down the line, everybody would follow the "party line" of Nicholas Kerensky's fake history and probably even think it true.

2) It's possible, but ultimately unproven, that she was the daughter of Richard Cameron's sister. There is a breadcrumbs trail of unreliable information in the sourcebooks that dedicated fans found and followed to its logical conclusion.
If she was a Cameron then this information was witheld from the Clans.
Some may have known who she wasn't; but nobody except perhaps Nicholas knew who she really was, so they never could connect her to House Cameron.

3) Her father is unknown. It was insinuated by none other than Stefan Amaris that Richard had raped his sister. You would have to accept point 2) above for a fact and then assume Amaris to be honest to see the possibility of "Jennifer Winson" being a Cameron incest child. The information is there, the possibility exists - but I reckon it's still a very long shot.

Deadborder · « **Reply #4 on:** 18 May 2018, 19:22:57 »

Quote from: Gaiiten on 18 May 2018, 12:35:45

Ihmo, it is very obvious that she was the bastard daughter of Richard Cameron who had raped his younger sister Helena.
So the being an incest child.

The rape was also never confirmed as being canon, and may have just been periphery propaganda

Gaiiten · « **Reply #5 on:** 19 May 2018, 12:56:02 »

Maybe.

However, I like the idea. Especially because of their close relationship to Nicholas.

BTW the idea that the Homeclans do have access to the genetic legacy of last Cameron of the Royal line.
TPTB have to have something in their mind to have the Wolves gave this to the Coyotes of all their genetic legacies. Getting rid of it due the background they knew?

Precentor Scorpio · « **Reply #6 on:** 19 May 2018, 17:58:21 »

Having the last of the Cameron's perform operations where she might get killed doesn't make sense. Having THE ILLEGITIMATE daughter of Alexander perform ops would make more sense.

Precentor Scorpio · « **Reply #7 on:** 19 May 2018, 18:22:08 »

Sarna.net is no help either. Jess Cole was a major? But, if she was born in 2770 and a meeting took place in June 2785 she would be a 15 year old major? Then there is a comment that Nicholas knew her since the occupation of Terra .

roosterboy · « **Reply #8 on:** 19 May 2018, 18:23:11 »

Eh, I really don't see the Clans caring much about the Cameron bloodline. Yes, they were the First Lords of the revered Star League, but they failed. The Clans want to restore the Star League but they have never said one word about restoring the Camerons; they want to restore the League under Clan control, Clan law, Clan custom. The new Lord of their restored League will be an heir to the ideals of Nicholas Kerensky, not Ian Cameron.

Frabby · « **Reply #9 on:** 20 May 2018, 02:23:25 »

Quote from: Precentor Scorpio on 19 May 2018, 18:22:08

Sarna.net is no help either. Jess Cole was a major? But, if she was born in 2770 and a meeting took place in June 2785 she would be a 15 year old major? Then there is a comment that Nicholas knew her since the occupation of Terra .

That's because it is difficult to keep her faux personality and all the fake data apart from the bits and pieces of truth that have surfaced.
Jennifer Winson/Jes Cole is featured heavily as a secondary character in Randall Bills' Founding of the Clans "triology".
However, only the first book was ever published in English.
The second book, where she explains to Andery Kerensky that she was in fact Jes Cole, was only ever published in its German translation which would normally mean it doesn't fall under the current definition of Canon. But to complicate things a bit more, Herb Beas' canon ruling included this clause: "Computer games and the material printed only in Germany (with the exception of the Founding of the Clans novels by Randall Bills) are not considered canonical." That could be read to mean the second book is canonical after all, even though it wasn't published in English. That gave me no end of headaches segregating canonical from apocryphal material when working on her Sarna article.

Gaiiten · « **Reply #10 on:** 20 May 2018, 04:56:30 »

Quote from: roosterboy on 19 May 2018, 18:23:11

Eh, I really don't see the Clans caring much about the Cameron bloodline. Yes, they were the First Lords of the revered Star League, but they failed. The Clans want to restore the Star League but they have never said one word about restoring the Camerons; they want to restore the League under Clan control, Clan law, Clan custom. The new Lord of their restored League will be an heir to the ideals of Nicholas Kerensky, not Ian Cameron.

Agreed.
However, what if Nicholas and Jennifer had a child (or children). Or a sibko bred from their genetic legacies? Or both?

Combining the old legal right of SL succession with the new ideals of the Clans ... a person with this genetic background could be the beginning of something new for the Homeclans.

Drewbacca · « **Reply #11 on:** 20 May 2018, 05:10:47 »

Was it ever explained why the wolves let the coyote have the legacy?

Deadborder · « **Reply #12 on:** 20 May 2018, 06:56:56 »

Several times

In short: Andrey Kerensky and Jennifer Winson were lovers. The Wolves gave the Coyotes access to Andrey's genetic legacies for breeding purposes as a gesture of recognition of that relationship. It does not give them any access to the Kerensky bloodname, however.

The Wolves still exclusively control both Kerensky bloodnames. However, both Winson Bloodnames have long since passed beyond their exclusivity. Plenty of other Clans have access to the Winson bloodname and breeding rights; while we don't know how many clans have access to them, it's more then just the Wolves and Coyotes.

So in short, there's been zillions of Kerensky-(Jennifer) Winson Clan kids for centuries. There's nothing unusual or magical about the combination.

Drewbacca · « **Reply #13 on:** 20 May 2018, 08:34:27 »

I thought Andery and Khufal were a couple and Nic and Jennifer were married. I don't remember seeing anything about Winson and Andery being together but it would explain the theories that Nic set up Andery to get whacked.

jklantern · « **Reply #14 on:** 20 May 2018, 08:38:35 »

Yeah, that was definitely Andery and Kufahl. The Wolves had Jen Winson because, well, Nick made her part of that Clan.

The COYOTES wound up with it because the Wolves traded it to them shortly before the Wars of Reaving in exchange for support for getting the Hell out of Dodge. And since the Winson legacy was the last of the "Founder's Legacies" (the Kerensky Bros and Jen Winson) left in the Homeworlds, isn't it convenient that the Coyotes happened to have it RIGHT when they were on the dock to be Annihilated? Hmmm...

Drewbacca · « **Reply #15 on:** 20 May 2018, 09:01:10 »

So a bit of a parting gift from the Wolves to the Yotes for all thier help over the years.

jklantern · « **Reply #16 on:** 20 May 2018, 09:18:48 »

Quote from: Drewbacca on 20 May 2018, 09:01:10

So a bit of a parting gift from the Wolves to the Yotes for all thier help over the years.

During WoR, the Clans that were prepping to leave Clan Space did a lot of Horse Trading of resources with various allies. I think the Wolves got like a Galaxy of Troops and transport assets, although admittedly it's been a while since I've read the book (since my PDF is on my dead computer. I should buy it again and download it to my Kindle). The Yotes got factories and the Winson Legacy.

As I recall, the Horses did a lot of trading with the Adders in their prep to leave. And I think the Ravens got as many Jumpships/Warships as they could from the Mandrills and Spirits. Basically, all the Clans smart enough to realize, "Oh man, we're not going to want to be here in the near future" made several trade deals to the Clans short sighted enough to go, "Look at these idiots giving us all these Mechs." This contributes to the Spirits and the Mandrills being in a REALLY bad position once the Wars kick off (combined with the Snake Alliance against basically anyone who annoys them).

EDIT: Really, if there was one Homeworld faction that could stand up to the Snake Alliance during the WoR reasonably well, it was the Yotes, because as I recall, basically EVERYONE traded them factories, and no one actually paid attention to what they were doing, since all of these trades were SUPER SEEKRIT.

roosterboy · « **Reply #17 on:** 20 May 2018, 13:33:47 »

Quote from: Gaiiten on 20 May 2018, 04:56:30

Agreed.
However, what if Nicholas and Jennifer had a child (or children). Or a sibko bred from their genetic legacies? Or both?

Combining the old legal right of SL succession with the new ideals of the Clans ... a person with this genetic background could be the beginning of something new for the Homeclans.

Nah, they still wouldn't care. For the Clans, there is simply nothing special about the Cameron bloodline.

Deadborder · « **Reply #18 on:** 20 May 2018, 15:47:11 »

My mistake, sorry about that. Shouldn't post when sleep deprived

nova_dew · « **Reply #19 on:** 21 May 2018, 09:29:10 »

I think they know only what she told them, her prior persona was a Major in the SLDF at the time of the Prinz Eugen Mutiny, we have no idea how many persona's she has used or any real idea about her age or real position in the SLDF, for all we know she could have been a Black Heart or a Black Watch member tasked with safe guarding Aleksandr Kerensky's family since Kerensky didn't trust Amaris. the Cameron connection i don't buy, given Richard died at 22 years old the incest thing would put her at tops 10-ish at the time of the coop thats IF richard did the thing at 12 years old. an illegitimate child of Simon Cameron or another Cameron maybe. putting an illegitimate child into the military under a allies command seems like it could happen though

ThePW · « **Reply #20 on:** 07 June 2018, 10:16:00 »

Not that any particular picture is considered cannon (Will the cannon artist version of VSD or PhK, please stand up? [please stand up?]) but when you look at the pic of Jennifer W in H:OpK, i don't see a Cameron in her, i see Amaris, especially when you look at Amaris's pic in Era Report 2750. Yes, it just happens to be convenient that the same artist (i think) worked on both products but...

Drewbacca · « **Reply #21 on:** 07 June 2018, 10:56:47 »

Not really seeing the Amaris resemblance.

truetanker · « **Reply #22 on:** 07 June 2018, 23:06:21 »

Quote from: Drewbacca on 07 June 2018, 10:56:47

Not really seeing the Amaris resemblance.

I don't see a blonde in Natasha Kerensky either, even when they said she was.

With all those plastic surgeries the SLDF / Clans could do.

TT

Gaiiten · « **Reply #23 on:** 08 June 2018, 12:45:22 »

Quote from: truetanker on 07 June 2018, 23:06:21

I don't see a blonde in Natasha Kerensky either, even when they said she was.
With all those plastic surgeries the SLDF / Clans could do.

In the second part of the Foundation of the Clans is confirmed that she was *modified* by plastic chirugy.

Nice described that she said that she had ever lived in the Shadows and had worn many masks.

The Lady of the Masks.

And Nicholas the Lord of the Masks.