Tell me about...the Suffren-class Destroyer

[Alan Grant]

Even as a warship fan I never paid much attention to the Suffren because there were so few around. But a non-canon game I am in we may be putting the class back into service in one way or another (possibly in the hands of a Great House) and I'm trying to figure it out. Strengths and weaknesses, its role in a larger fleet or navy, etc.

[marauder648]

The Suffren is a well protected but undergunned destroyer and unlike SLDF ships goes back to the old fashioned head on approaches as thats where she brings the majority of her fire to bare with her NAC-40's and H-NPPC's.  This means that someone's getting free shots at your bridge and sensors if they get a crit with say a missile (and the Suffren has no AMS defence) and this can cripple your shooting if you take a sensors hit and make you easier to hit.

Very inadequate aerospace compliment can be covered by giving her a fighter carrier in one of her 4 dropship docking collars. 

Where she shines is her armour which is better than all SLDF destroyers we've seen thus far and her adequate structural integrity lets her take some hits before you roll away. Her anti-fighter defences are also capable too.  And add to the punch up close.

Don't let someone sucker you into a broadside fight though, you'll loose and you'll loose badly and with limited bracketing firing due to the small number of guns grouped together she'll loose at a long range fight too.  Close and hose basically :)  If you don't want to fling her at hostile warships, she's a good deterrent against other ships coming near a friendly capital ship and she could be used as an escort.

Oh and just because she's got good armour does not mean you can go up to an Aegis and go "FITE ME!"  She will get her teeth kicked in.

[Alan Grant]

Excellent input, thank you.

What do you think of her marine complement/small craft complement? For me it almost brings on a comparison to the Tatsumaki.

[marauder648]

Well you could use them in a campaign for boarding and inspection roles of jumpships or trying to swarm and capture a hostile warship or jump/dropship. 

But don't send them against Clan Warships. Whilst Clan warships as a whole don't have bugger all in regards to point defences they do tend to have Elementals onboard.  And Elementals do HORRIFIC things to standard infantry and they are trained to fight onboard ships.  An Elemental would be cackling at the prospect of being on a ship boarded by normal infantry.

[Weirdo]

Depends how many Elementals there are. Suffrens carry a LOT of troops. Even if we assume the Suffren's shuttles can only carry one platoon apiece and the rest are left behind, that's still 224 marine points, or 384 if using the published Comstar space marine platoons. That first number's equal to a full Trinary of standard Elementals with small lasers, while the second is equivalent to a Trinary of Space Elementals that have swapped out the lasers for machine guns, flamers, or any other burst-fire weapon. You'll note that this is more than the troops carried aboard a Carrack, Odyssey, or even a Liberator.

Don't forget that those troops can also be raiders, allowing you to attack targets groundside where armored units might be unavailable or impractical. A Suffren's a bit much for an infantry raid, but I'm certain the captain appreciates having an option for reacting to planetary situations in a way other than 'Glass it'.

As for the Suffren itself, the gun and armor layout scream fast attack ship to me. Line up a high-speed attack run on a station, or a fleet at anchor/on a known course, then come screaming in out of deep space at 0.1C. Anything that survives your nose guns gets the tailshot in the next microsecond, you're gone before enemy fighters have a chance to do real damage to you, and any shots that do hit you will come in on your nose or aft charts, where your armor is thickest.

[Maelwys]

A design so odd they had to make a special one off rule for it just so that it could be used when it was created :)

I think it could work as a boarding ship. The majority of the Clan fleet are refitted Star League-era ships which have limited Marine Points, beyond their crews (quite possibly due to the way the they were built under certain rules rather than an in universe explanation). So in those cases, it might do well. But it could've done better by being designed with BA in mind.

Other than that, when I look at the Suffren, I have to ask. "Why not the Dante instead?"

[Nightsong]

A design so odd they had to make a special one off rule for it just so that it could be used when it was created.

Trying to remember, the Suffren rule was that you could exceed heat capacity at a to-hit penalty? I want to say that was it.

[Wrangler]

I wish there was featured battle where one these was actually used.  TRO:3057 Revised & the original only talk about how crews were prepping to use it in simulations.  Sad.

[Dragon Cat]

I wish there was featured battle where one these was actually used.  TRO:3057 Revised & the original only talk about how crews were prepping to use it in simulations.  Sad.

Only action I think they got was the CASE WHITE against the Blakists the CSV Anastasius Focht and CSV Manchester

Manchester was salvaged by the Blakists and rejoined the fight against the Liberation fleet's TASK FORCE CRONUS defending Titan

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Manchester

[Hellraiser]

I think it could work as a boarding ship. The majority of the Clan fleet are refitted Star League-era ships which have limited Marine Points, beyond their crews (quite possibly due to the way the they were built under certain rules rather than an in universe explanation). So in those cases, it might do well. But it could've done better by being designed with BA in mind.

Agreed. 
The layout of the Aegis in Living Legends shows it as having 3x 30-man Marine Platoons for a 90 man company.
I figure its a flaw in the design process from way back.
All SLDF Warships would, IMHO, have anywhere from a Platoon minimum to a Battalion/Regiment on board for the Big boys.

[Dragon Cat]

would they though?  The SLDF operated their ships in dozen ship units most of them carrying DropShips which could have your marines

why put resources into housing marines on every ship when they are likely never going to be used?  only independent ships or those without DropShips really need marines built in

"Modern" ship designs however need marines since they are more likely to be alone due to the scarcity of WarShips

[Maelwys]

Trying to remember, the Suffren rule was that you could exceed heat capacity at a to-hit penalty? I want to say that was it.

Close, its the only weapon fire you can do that turn, and instead of a to-hit penalty you have to make an automatic control roll, with a +1 penalty for every 100 heat (or fraction there of) that the heat exceeds the dissipation. So basically every time you fire the Nose Arc, you run the risk of the going out of control. Or so you'd think. The rules might be a little unclear (which makes me wonder about what SO says, since I'm currently looking at AT2R).

[Nightsong]

Close, its the only weapon fire you can do that turn, and instead of a to-hit penalty you have to make an automatic control roll, with a +1 penalty for every 100 heat (or fraction there of) that the heat exceeds the dissipation. So basically every time you fire the Nose Arc, you run the risk of the going out of control. Or so you'd think. The rules might be a little unclear (which makes me wonder about what SO says, since I'm currently looking at AT2R).

You'd think C* would have thought about, I don't know, putting enough sinks to at least cover an arc. Hell, just shave a couple hundred tons from Cargo and you'd be ok. When you can't even fire just one arc due to heating issues, that's when you should start considering putting the design team up against the wall and calling the firing squad. Maybe they were WOB sympathizers or something.

[Dragon Cat]

completely agree Nightsong I really don't understand it fair enough you want a nose fighter but give it enough heats to fire its guns

[Maelwys]

Well, on the plus side, they can fire off a broadside without any issues...

As for why ComStar did it, I dunno. Maybe their simulations only handled firing the Capital weapons or the Standard weapons, rather than both at the same time.

A better question would be...why did the OOC designers do it that way, which would require a new rule, specifically for that one arc on that one design.

So..more amusingly, I'm not sure the Control Roll for firing the Suffren's nose arc actually does anything. The rules for Control rolls state that failing one makes the unit go out of control, but only in the case of the events listed on the chart. And firing an arc whose heat is beyond the heat dissipation of the unit isn't one of those on the chart...

[Weirdo]

When the Suffren was designed, the ruleset was BattleSpace, not AT2 or StratOps. Back then, heat was done by bay, not by arc. Presumably, the designers did not intend for the ship to fire all the nose guns at once.

[Hellraiser]

would they though?  The SLDF operated their ships in dozen ship units most of them carrying DropShips which could have your marines

why put resources into housing marines on every ship when they are likely never going to be used?  only independent ships or those without DropShips really need marines built in

Why put resources into using up a docking collar for something that can easily be housed internally & as part of the "Crew" instead of in Bays like on a DS that will chew through consumables faster.

Are there ships in the US-Navy that don't have USMC troops or at least MP's on board?

Like I said, the Aegis has them as part of the layout, as well as fluff for it having extra quarters for that matter.
But its not on the RS.
I feel like the RS's were made to cover the basics of the 3 "crew roles" established in TRO2750 but failed to fill out the rest of the ship.

Lets face it, the rules have changed so many times for AT construction.
Food Consumption rates now vary between the Fighter Bay Quarters v/s actual Steerage Quarters.
So really, the ships should show that with designated Steerage. 
And what ship doesn't have at least 1-2 extra quarters for visiting "VIPs"?

[Wrangler]

Only action I think they got was the CASE WHITE against the Blakists the CSV Anastasius Focht and CSV Manchester

Manchester was salvaged by the Blakists and rejoined the fight against the Liberation fleet's TASK FORCE CRONUS defending Titan

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Manchester

Thanks.  Hopefully Victor Milan's novel "Case White" will highly in more detail some of that action.