Tell me about...the Achilles Dropship

[Alan Grant]

I'm getting into the space stuff more, and I'm wondering what  people think of the Achilles. Pros and cons, strengths and weaknesses, the usual.

In particular, especially at Level 1 tech, I'm wondering what changes you'd make to it in the workshop.

[TigerShark]

It's a decent DropShip for Assaults or escort duty, but gets pounded mercilessly when stacked against anything larger (like a Bonaventure) or smaller, like a squadron of Stingrays.. It really depends on how you balance (or if you balance) your games.

In a high-BV contest of Star League or Succession Wars play, the Achilles can prove invaluable as one of the most heavily-armed ships of its class. They have the power to knock out Spheroid ships in short order, given some kind initiative dice rolls. However, if the DropShip you are assaulting has any sort of fighter escort, you're pretty much a dead duck since Aerodynes are horrible at defending themselves in anything but the Forward arc. Sure, it has an AC/20 in the Rear but if your attackers are in the Side arc, you're basically going to take a massive pounding without answering.

The answer lies in good unit composition and stacking them together to achieve a singular goal. If you need to knock out a DropShip quickly, do so. Focus everything on a single arc and don't waste time on escort vessels; let your own support units deal with them. However, if you're sending an Achilles in alone (or with other, like-minded vessels), be prepared to lose a pretty expensive ship.

As far as upgrades go, I'd say this thing is pretty well min/maxed on its own. That and I'm not too keen on working within the Intro Tech framework; Assault DropShips aren't really "Introductory" types of units anyhow. If I were to make an upgrade, it would be to some of the more concentrated weapons available during the Star League era and a nice upgrade in armor materiel so that it may stand up to smaller Warships and picket vessels. Given that it's large enough to take fire from Capital weapons without a modifier, it really needs to be better prepared to handle these threats without ending up in a debris field.

[Alan Grant]

What kind of "concentrated weapons" are you referring to?

I'm not an expert but trying to learn.

[TigerShark]

What kind of "concentrated weapons" are you referring to?

I'm not an expert but trying to learn.

Weapons which do maximal damage without dispersing over several locations. PPC (10), ER PPC (10), Gauss Rifles (15), ER Large Laser (8), Large Laser (8), etc. are all examples of good Aerotech weaponry. When grouped together into weapon bays, weapons do more damage. Adding 4 x PPC to a bay will do 40 standard damage in a single shot or 4 Capital damage points.

In Aerotech play, creating large amounts of damage in a concentrated area maximize the chances they will cause a critical hit due to damage threshold. Grouping things together will create bigger damage, such as 4 x PPCs doing 40 standard damage with a single hit. If that 40 damage exceeds the damage threshold (10% of the location's armor total, rounded up), it has a chance for a critical hit. That's crucial in taking out big objects which may have guns you'd rather not experience. :)

[Weirdo]

If you can run a pair of Achilles, they're excellent anti-fighter platforms, with plenty of squadron-critting bays, and two of them can cover their weak arcs fairly easily. In SL-era play, it's an excellent escort, not really able to stand up to WarShips, but a major threat to any DropShip short of a Titan or Pentagon(and both of those must still be careful), and like I said, a powerful anti-fighter platform. Once you get to the Succession Wars, it becomes one of the big boys, reigning supreme over all except the Vengeance. With the arrival of the Clans and subsequent development of the 'Pocket WarShip' DropShips, the Achilles is suddenly and rudely tumbled from its throne, but it's still very much a contender. While it cannot match a PWS for range or raw firepower(and in many cases, armor), but it still has speed to burn. You've got the thrust to go full evasive and still close rapidly, so do it. Get in close, stay out of any capital or sub-cap arcs, and then just chew through that armor. Obviously you'll want a squadron or two of fighters to cover your flanks, and don't get cocky. You still don't have the armor or firepower to last long against all but the smallest of WarShips, so don't bother. If one shows up, use those drives to book and find a nice hole in space to hide in, or hope said big boy has something better to shoot at.

[Diablo48]

...Once you get to the Succession Wars, it becomes one of the big boys, reigning supreme over all except the Vengeance....

How long does it usually take an Achilles to scrap a Vengeance?  I ask because if the Assault ship can cut up the carrier fast enough it is free to make a break for deep space and leave the fighters stranded.

[Alexander Knight]

How long does it usually take an Achilles to scrap a Vengeance?  I ask because if the Assault ship can cut up the carrier fast enough it is free to make a break for deep space and leave the fighters stranded.

Before or after the 40 fighters rip into the Achilles?

[Weirdo]

Lessee...at short range, a Nose/Wing strike from an Obsolete Achilles at close range theoretically can strip the nose armor of a Vengeance in one salvo. On the other hand, hit location charts mean the shots will more likely spread out, and there's no guarantee that the Achilles will be able to get the same hit chart over and over again. I'd say 3-4 turns, 2 at the least. That's best case scenario, where the Achilles won't have to break off or go evasive to shake off fighters or other escorts.

Oh, and in case you're playing a post-3050 game, an Upgraded Achilles can easily OSK a Vengeance from the nose, and the odds aren't that much worse for the more heavily armored arcs. If you ever encounter one of these, make sure it's your primary target. This may be one of the most terrifying non-PWS DropShips out there. I'm amazed I never took a very close look at it before.

Before or after the 40 fighters rip into the Achilles?

I believe he was talking about a scenario where the fighters had been lured away, or where the majority of them hadn't launched yet. Remember that due to the Achilles' speed, only your light or medium fighters are likely to keep up with it. If the Vengeance CO is careless, the heavy birds that pose the real threat can get suckered away for a close attack, then left flat-footed when the Achilles blows right past them for an attack run on their carrier. And unless you're packing a couple wings of pure heavy birds, it has the armor to survive their fire for a turn or two if the captain is feeling brave.

[Diablo48]

Lessee...at short range, a Nose/Wing strike from an Obsolete Achilles at close range theoretically can strip the nose armor of a Vengeance in one salvo. On the other hand, hit location charts mean the shots will more likely spread out, and there's no guarantee that the Achilles will be able to get the same hit chart over and over again. I'd say 3-4 turns, 2 at the least. That's best case scenario, where the Achilles won't have to break off or go evasive to shake off fighters or other escorts.

Oh, and in case you're playing a post-3050 game, an Upgraded Achilles can easily OSK a Vengeance from the nose, and the odds aren't that much worse for the more heavily armored arcs. If you ever encounter one of these, make sure it's your primary target. This may be one of the most terrifying non-PWS DropShips out there. I'm amazed I never took a very close look at it before.

So in 3025 you will probably not be able to pull this off, but the upgraded version will do it rather easily.  Thanks.

I believe he was talking about a scenario where the fighters had been lured away, or where the majority of them hadn't launched yet. Remember that due to the Achilles' speed, only your light or medium fighters are likely to keep up with it. If the Vengeance CO is careless, the heavy birds that pose the real threat can get suckered away for a close attack, then left flat-footed when the Achilles blows right past them for an attack run on their carrier. And unless you're packing a couple wings of pure heavy birds, it has the armor to survive their fire for a turn or two if the captain is feeling brave.

That was exactly my thinking.  Either draw the real threat off with a feint or smash through to quickly destroy the carrier depending on what is in the air.  Once it is dead you can burn hard to get clear of the fighters and trust that as a DropShip you have vastly superior endurance so you can come pick the fighters up for your own use after the pilots run out of air.

[Weirdo]

I'd say it could still be done in 3025, it would just take a little longer. 3025-era fighters are often much weaker than modern ones, so the Achilles could afford to stick around for more salvos even after the fighters had returned.

[Diablo48]

I'd say it could still be done in 3025, it would just take a little longer. 3025-era fighters are often much weaker than modern ones, so the Achilles could afford to stick around for more salvos even after the fighters had returned.

Good point.  Of course, this could change more drastically depending on what fighters were being carried, but eating a round or two of fire would definitely be less hazardous against 3025 gear.

[robbybarbera]

I don't know if this has been mentioned but the Achilles drop ship can not enter the atmosphere. It is a space based only drop ship. Now beside that flaw it is a decent escort and anti-fighter craft. Especially if you are playing in 3025 era. I actually prefer the Avenger not as powerful and can not carry aerospace fighters but it can enter the atmosphere and provide close air support during drops. But if you do not have to worry about securing a landing zone and only concerned with pure space battles go with an Achilles. Just my thoughts. Also I am a really big fan of battlespace so enjoy the space battles I know I do.

Thanks

robbybarbera

[Weirdo]

The non-atmospheric nature of the Achilles is actually a fluff-only limitation, though I suspect there's probably also a Quirk in StratOps for it too. Nonetheless, if you're playing just by the rules, the Achilles can enter atmosphere just fine.

(I stick to the fluff here, but I figured I'd point out the option for folks who play that way.)

[TigerShark]

The non-atmospheric nature of the Achilles is actually a fluff-only limitation, though I suspect there's probably also a Quirk in StratOps for it too. Nonetheless, if you're playing just by the rules, the Achilles can enter atmosphere just fine.

(I stick to the fluff here, but I figured I'd point out the option for folks who play that way.)

The Achilles is hardly an "Aerodyne" and resembles one as much as any Warship ever made. The term "Aerodyne" suggests some sort of aerodynamics in name, does it not?  Yes in atmosphere it sinks like a rock. This design would have been better served under Warship construction rules rather than classing it as an Aerodyne DropShip.

[Weirdo]

Except that it is not jump-capable, and is far too small, among other differences between it and any WarShip.

The Achilles has everything in common with other DropShips, aside from the space-only nature of the vessel. Given the choice between making it a far more advanced and expensive vessel and thus making it an extremely undergunned WarShip, or using the same construction rules as 99% of the spacecraft in the size category, that also behave the same way as the Achilles aside from that one detail, I'll stick with it being a DropShip. It's much easier on the rules.

[robbybarbera]

The non-atmospheric nature of the Achilles is actually a fluff-only limitation, though I suspect there's probably also a Quirk in StratOps for it too. Nonetheless, if you're playing just by the rules, the Achilles can enter atmosphere just fine.

(I stick to the fluff here, but I figured I'd point out the option for folks who play that way.)

Okay thanks I did not know that  my Battletech and Battlespace rule books were bought when FASA Corporation was still in business. Also in the TRO 3057 in the notes section for the Achilles says it is not designed for atmospheric operations. I have always played it like that but I am sure some of my friends will be glad to see that is just fluff, and will try and convince me too allow them to use it in the atmosphere. Of course I am still going to play it that they can't. And tell them to get another dropship for Landing Zone clearance.
Also I would like to mention and probably has been that the Achilles can carry two aerospace fighters and two small craft. Throw in two aerospace fighters and the one Aquarius smallcraft or the Lyonese small craft, and a shuttle with the marines you could use it to seize a lot of the smaller dropships. If you play with the boarding rules.

Thanks and thank you weirdo for that info about StratOps allowing them to enter the atmosphere. The more and more I hear about StartOPs I need to go out and buy it. (I prefer real books vs PDFs.)

[Weirdo]

I would highly recommend StratOps, as well as 3057 Revised. Both are invaluable resources for space players.

[Moonsword]

Even if it could descend into an atmosphere (which at least one or two of the larger PWSes can, although they can simply bombard the site from orbit and skip all of this), an Achilles is an awful lot of DropShip to risk closing near the surface.  Even if the Advanced Aerospace Control Roll rules are in play, anything with a 20 point hit (HGR, iHGR, AC/20, LB 20-X firing solid shot) can force a PSR from the rear (and only from the rear; otherwise, you need another DropShip, which is why I dislike that rule - it removes a lot of the risk from well-armored DropShips attacking surface units).  Without it, the Achilles is going to have a giant bullseye painted on it that's probably going to see it eat a lot of damage, get an unpleasantly bad PSR, and quite possibly become the world's biggest lawn dart.

[Jellico]

No, that would be a Conquistador.

I seriously won't be surprised if straffing is in the FSN manual.


While aerodyne suggests aerodynamic the truth is most craft in battletech have the aerodynamics of a rock. Atmospheric flight is largely produced by vast amounts of thrust. The non-atmospheric fight ability of an Achilles is probably due to it being unable to reconfigure its internal seating or having a "verticle" cruising engine.

[Welshman]

The Achilles is a powerful ship, but not to make a pun of it, the Aerodyne firing arcs are its Achilles heal. I once took out an Achilles with a single Sparrowhawk squadron.

[Hellraiser]

I seriously won't be surprised if straffing is in the FSN manual. 

I'll admit that once upon a time my force brought to a 1500 tons fight was a Marauder-5D and an Upgraded Avenger w/ 25 tons of bombs attached to it.

Have you ever seen an Avenger strafe a Banshee ?   Its hella fun  }:)

What can I say, I needed to leave early and just wanted a little fun w/ the other 2 guys and the reinforced assault companies they each brought.


I've never used the Achilles but I always thought it made a great "Capture" ship with the twin fighters, smallcraft, & marines.
Perfect for taking over enemy jumpships.  (Just like they did in twilight of the clans)

With the small craft too I would think one would make for a nice ECM bubble cover for a wing (or 2)of fighters from the above mentioned Vengeance.  Send them in w/ the small craft being combat ships and you can put a hurt on something fast.

As for taking one out w/ 6 sparrowhawks ?  I think I'd have just run away till you ran out of fuel.
And did it have its own 4 escort ships ?

[Moonsword]

If the fighters are in engagement range, that accomplishes nothing but turning your weakest arc and thinnest armor to the threat.

[Weirdo]

Honestly, ships like the Achilles are just begging to be used with the advanced initiative rule, giving them at least a bit of a chance to hold their own against fighters.

[Hellraiser]

If the fighters are in engagement range, that accomplishes nothing but turning your weakest arc and thinnest armor to the threat.

Like it matters, fighters always move last so you can put any facing you want at them and they can STILL get to your aft.  (Faster ones I mean, like said SparrowHawks)
Burn away from them at Max speed, go defensive, and see how long they stick around to tail you.
If you can get enough distance then you can flip and bring your forward guns into line w/ them.

[robbybarbera]

While aerodyne suggests aerodynamic the truth is most craft in battletech have the aerodynamics of a rock. Atmospheric flight is largely produced by vast amounts of thrust. The non-atmospheric fight ability of an Achilles is probably due to it being unable to reconfigure its internal seating or having a "verticle" cruising engine.

I think more likely that Achilles was not designed to provide lift when operating in the atmosphere. The Avenger does not have bottom mounted engine for vertical but it can enter the atmosphere. And looking at the pictures of the dropships. The Avenger appears to be more aerodynamic than the Achilles. If you guys have TRO 3057 take a look at both of them real close. Notice that the Achilles does not have any wing surface to provide lift so making atmospheric flight impossible. I do not think that internal seating and the bottomed mounted drive is the issue because the Avenger would have the same issue of not being able to enter the atmosphere. Like I said earlier in this post I think it is just simple aerodynamics and lack of a wing surface to gain lift is the reason.

[wantec]

I think more likely that Achilles was not designed to provide lift when operating in the atmosphere. The Avenger does not have bottom mounted engine for vertical but it can enter the atmosphere. And looking at the pictures of the dropships. The Avenger appears to be more aerodynamic than the Achilles. If you guys have TRO 3057 take a look at both of them real close. Notice that the Achilles does not have any wing surface to provide lift so making atmospheric flight impossible. I do not think that internal seating and the bottomed mounted drive is the issue because the Avenger would have the same issue of not being able to enter the atmosphere. Like I said earlier in this post I think it is just simple aerodynamics and lack of a wing surface to gain lift is the reason.

Well, in addition to the external shape being designed to provide lift, the ship has to be designed to handle the internal forces and stresses that come with entering atmosphere. Out in space those forces and stresses are much lower so not as much of the internal design needs to be devoted to reinforcing the structure.

[Diablo48]

If the fighters are in engagement range, that accomplishes nothing but turning your weakest arc and thinnest armor to the threat.

The thing is even the thin rear armor will hold for a while, and at full burn you can run the fighters fuel tanks dry in short order.  Also, there is absolutely no reason to close to engagement range in the first place if they are obliged to come after you, so you can just maintain distance until they are forced to break off and then proceed to your objective.

I think more likely that Achilles was not designed to provide lift when operating in the atmosphere. The Avenger does not have bottom mounted engine for vertical but it can enter the atmosphere. And looking at the pictures of the dropships. The Avenger appears to be more aerodynamic than the Achilles. If you guys have TRO 3057 take a look at both of them real close. Notice that the Achilles does not have any wing surface to provide lift so making atmospheric flight impossible. I do not think that internal seating and the bottomed mounted drive is the issue because the Avenger would have the same issue of not being able to enter the atmosphere. Like I said earlier in this post I think it is just simple aerodynamics and lack of a wing surface to gain lift is the reason.

The problem is the Achilles can produce several g's of acceleration without breaking a sweat, so the ship should be able to easily overcome aerodynamic inefficiencies with brute force.

[Moonsword]

The thing is even the thin rear armor will hold for a while, and at full burn you can run the fighters fuel tanks dry in short order.  Also, there is absolutely no reason to close to engagement range in the first place if they are obliged to come after you, so you can just maintain distance until they are forced to break off and then proceed to your objective.

Sparrowhawks have better acceleration.  You're not outrunning them in the short term.  They may run themselves dry but that's going to take a at least a dozen turns they're going to spend shooting at you.  If they're on top of you, turn your heaviest armor and weapons to confront them and blow them away, don't give them free shots at your tail where they're most likely to actually accomplish something.  Not to mention free opportunities to take a shot at your engines and reduce your acceleration for someone else to catch up.

If you're not at engagement range and they're deterring you, there's no real reason for them to engage in the first place.  Aerospace fighters are point defenders, not long-range interceptors.  That's what DropShips are for.

[Hellraiser]

The thing is even the thin rear armor will hold for a while, and at full burn you can run the fighters fuel tanks dry in short order.  Also, there is absolutely no reason to close to engagement range in the first place if they are obliged to come after you, so you can just maintain distance until they are forced to break off and then proceed to your objective.

Yeah but they can also sit back and wait for you to close too.
In the end it all comes down to not the DS v/s the Fighters but who is the Attacker v/s the Defender.

An Attacker must close w/ the objective because once the call goes out that the system is under attack the neighboring systems will start to mobilize reinforcements.
A unit that stays on a "Raid" for too long will find its line of retreat cut off.

But assuming the Achilles has been engaged and has no other fighters for support and is up against a faster set of fighters, then yep, I still say turn & burn and see how long they can play that game.  After all if its faster than the Achilles it probably doesn't have the armor to take too many shots from even the RearWing/Aft bays.

[TigerShark]

Sparrowhawks have better acceleration.  You're not outrunning them in the short term.  They may run themselves dry but that's going to take a at least a dozen turns they're going to spend shooting at you.  If they're on top of you, turn your heaviest armor and weapons to confront them and blow them away, don't give them free shots at your tail where they're most likely to actually accomplish something.  Not to mention free opportunities to take a shot at your engines and reduce your acceleration for someone else to catch up.

If you're not at engagement range and they're deterring you, there's no real reason for them to engage in the first place.  Aerospace fighters are point defenders, not long-range interceptors.  That's what DropShips are for.

This is assuming you're playing by standard AT2 rules. I play by Vector rules and "fuel" has never been an issue.