Tell me about the Heavy Rifle

[Stinger]

Okay, so looking at the heavy rifle, I see a cheaper, longer range, lighter AC-10 that can't use special munitions.

Given that this was available for a long time, for the cost of 1 damage I get the same range as a PPC or LB-10X AC and at only 8 tons.  Drawback being only 6 shots  per ton, but the tonnage saved compared to an AC-10 (4 tons) out weighs this drastically.

Am I missing something?  Or in time periods before special munitions, is this a better choice?

[Trace Coburn]

  The thing is that the Rifle (Cannons)s are so archaic that they’re not designed to deal with later, tougher forms of armour: when dealing with units (not counting BA) whose armour has BAR7 or higher (which includes Primitive ’Mech armour and all more advanced forms), each gun deals 3 points less of damage.  The much-maligned AC/5 masses the same as the Heavy Rifle, hits almost as hard, doesn’t suffer the same damage-penalty, and has far better ammunition endurance for every ton of ammo it carries.

  That’s not to say that Heavy Rifles are completely useless: like all Rifle (Cannon)s, they’re cheap, easy to make and supply, they do deal damage the enemy, and a solid hit from one will get the attention of most BA suits (which don’t enjoy the -3 damage-modifier that heavier units get).  It’s just a niche weapon that typically speaks to the user lacking a tech-base advanced enough to deploy anything more potent.

  Of course, if you want to play a campaign in a Tech Level C (or even TL-B) environment where Primitive ’Mechs are fighting it out with, say, units from TRO:1945, the Heavy Rifle starts to look awfully powerful as a main-armament....  }:) ;)

[Stinger]

  The thing is that the Rifle (Cannons)s are so archaic that they’re not designed to deal with later, tougher forms of armour: when dealing with units (not counting BA) whose armour has BAR7 or higher (which includes Primitive ’Mech armour and all more advanced forms), each gun deals 3 points less of damage.  The much-maligned AC/5 masses the same as the Heavy Rifle, hits almost as hard, doesn’t suffer the same damage-penalty, and has far better ammunition endurance for every ton of ammo it carries.

  That’s not to say that Heavy Rifles are completely useless: like all Rifle (Cannon)s, they’re cheap, easy to make and supply, they do deal damage the enemy, and a solid hit from one will get the attention of most BA suits (which don’t enjoy the -3 damage-modifier that heavier units get).  It’s just a niche weapon that typically speaks to the user lacking a tech-base advanced enough to deploy anything more potent.

  Of course, if you want to play a campaign in a Tech Level C (or even TL-B) environment where Primitive ’Mechs are fighting it out with, say, units from TRO:1945, the Heavy Rifle starts to look awfully powerful as a main-armament....  }:) ;)

Okay, that makes a lot more sense now.  I haven't read into it completely, given I just got TacOps in the recent sale, but I thought it was too good to be true.

Thanks for the info!

[Dave Talley]

granted all these things make it a great weapon for defensive works

blows trucks, infantry and BA all over the place
and 3-4 of them will get a mechs attention

[Prince of Darkness]

It also doesn't help that the heavy rifle generates 6 heat per shot instead of the AC/5s 1, which combined with it's low ammo endurance stymies it on some units.  The Arbiter for instance, fires a round and it's 5 heat up the scale- assuming it doesn't move.

[Wrangler]

I'm actually surprised that there aren't any alternate ordiance for these weapons.  They should have at least Flak and Flechette type ammo types for these weapons.  It seems to be bit too restrictive...

[worktroll]

It's not meant to be competitive with "modern" weapons.  Like low BAR armour and other primitive equipment, it's there to allow construction of ye olde war machines which aren't as good as the best new stuff. It also allows lower-tech planets some capacity to build low-grade equipment themselves.

[Wrangler]

It's not meant to be competitive with "modern" weapons.  Like low BAR armour and other primitive equipment, it's there to allow construction of ye olde war machines which aren't as good as the best new stuff. It also allows lower-tech planets some capacity to build low-grade equipment themselves.

Well, only reason why i mention the flak was because of XTRO:1945.  They were certainly using flak during the Second World War, or they would been heck of alot less planes being shot down from the ground!

[worktroll]

OTOH, and barring the US-only proximity fuses, all WW2 flak was based on timed fuses. So not necessarily the same thing.

(And yes, I do know the hazards of bringing logic and real-world physics into a BT argument :D )

[VhenRa]

Best thing I can think to do with it?

Field Gun for infantry.

[Weirdo]

Best thing I can think to do with it?

Field Gun for infantry.

I'd prefer to use Medium Rifles for this, but in either case, a platoon lugging a bunch of these will do HORRIBLE things to enemy battlesuits. >:D

[Diablo48]

I'd prefer to use Medium Rifles for this, but in either case, a platoon lugging a bunch of these will do HORRIBLE things to enemy battlesuits. >:D

They do have some limitations against larger targets which could be problematic and the ammo could be a bit tight, but they are very easy to justify.  After all, what military wants to splurge on those silly PBI?  Give them the crummy old rifles and tell them to make do. >:D

[worktroll]

Now I need to make some infantry stands with breech-loading cannon ... (Yes, I know it's totally wrong representation, but ...)

[Diablo48]

Now I need to make some infantry stands with breech-loading cannon ... (Yes, I know it's totally wrong representation, but ...)

Depending on the cannons you are using, it may not be too far off.  Something that looks like a field gun from WW1 or later is probably about right given TRO 1945.

[Weirdo]

Now I need to make some infantry stands with breech-loading cannon ... (Yes, I know it's totally wrong representation, but ...)

Bah. I'll use Napoleonic muzzle loaders. They'll match the cavalry stands I'm planning. [brew]

[Getz]

OTOH, and barring the US-only proximity fuses, all WW2 flak was based on timed fuses. So not necessarily the same thing.

(And yes, I do know the hazards of bringing logic and real-world physics into a BT argument :D )

Did you know the VT fuse was invented in Britain and used in British AAA too?

[glitterboy2098]

Depending on the cannons you are using, it may not be too far off.  Something that looks like a field gun from WW1 or later is probably about right given TRO 1945.

GHQ has a nice variety of towed guns you could use.. i have to say the M1 8" towed gun from their WW2 american line would work well, though you'd have to buy the prime movers seperately. toss a 1 1/2 ton truck, one of the guns, and a few infantry on a hex base and you have a wonderful mechanized field gun platoon representation.

[Alexander Knight]

Bah. I'll use Napoleonic muzzle loaders. They'll match the cavalry stands I'm planning. [brew]

Along with your hunters in pith helmets armed with elephant guns mounted on Branths, right?

[Weirdo]

Damn straight. 8)

[SCC]

If you carry enough ammo OR the unit isn't designed to last too long the ammo thing isn't an issue.

One unit it would really help is the Dragon, something I realized when 1945 came out, in the classic fluff 20th century tech is the norm through out the IS, and 20th century tech is limited to BAR 5, and the Dragon isn't able to generate a cluster higher then that but if you swap out the AC/5 for a Heavy Rifle that problem goes away

[Gryphon]

yeah, but they went way overboard making these things "teh suck" really. They carry crap ammo, run massively hit, and suffer a penalty to damage most common combat units. Really, better ammo endurance should have been part and parcel on these things. I might even have added in the whole HVAC smoke effect too, just for funsies, but as it is, the Arbiter is a waste of space on a battlefield if you don't convert it over to at least an AC/5 tout suite.

I sort of like the idea of the gun carriage infantry though, and I really like the idea of mounting these things in bunkers an atop walls with crenelations too!

[Diablo48]

yeah, but they went way overboard making these things "teh suck" really. They carry crap ammo, run massively hit, and suffer a penalty to damage most common combat units. Really, better ammo endurance should have been part and parcel on these things. I might even have added in the whole HVAC smoke effect too, just for funsies, but as it is, the Arbiter is a waste of space on a battlefield if you don't convert it over to at least an AC/5 tout suite.

I sort of like the idea of the gun carriage infantry though, and I really like the idea of mounting these things in bunkers an atop walls with crenelations too!

Given some of the questionable weapons we have seen in regular service over the years, I think they really did have to make the rifles suck this badly to explain why they were abandoned.

[Gryphon]

I personally believe this is a plot to make the AC-5 look not just tolerable, but superior in capacity!  :))

[Weirdo]

I personally believe this is a plot to make the AC-5 look not just tolerable, but superior in capacity!  :))

I wasn't part of any rules development when TacOps was first done up, but this is probably literally the case. The AC/5 is known to be a popular main weapon from the Mackie's time onward, so it obviously must be superior to what came before it. The developers probably worked very hard to craft a weapon powerful enough to make battles in that time period interesting, yet inferior enough to make every AC/5-toting unit in Battletech make some sense.

[Nahuris]

No, just imagine if someone figures out how to stamp rifle ammo with "made after 3020" .......
Honestly, the rifles are useful... and would be a great place to use applied engineering and learning to make a better ballistic weapon for future improvements.

Also, if you go over the GHQ Heavy Weapons sets, there are ones with infantry and small mortar guns on wheels.... yes, assembling those itty bitty canons are a pain, but they work very well to simulate infantry with mini artillery.

http://www.ghqmodels.com/store/us94.html

Nahuris

[Dave Talley]

or of course the old pack 75mm
http://www.ghqmodels.com/store/us61.html

[SCC]

No, just imagine if someone figures out how to stamp rifle ammo with "made after 3020" .......
Honestly, the rifles are useful... and would be a great place to use applied engineering and learning to make a better ballistic weapon for future improvements.

Are you aware of how broken that would be? The 8.8cm Cannon in TRO:1945 is a 4-ton, 40 ammo per ton, and you can double mount it, getting a sort of unjammable Ultra, and that's a Tech Level B weapon, and not a very advanced one at that, how bad do you think an upgraded Heavy Rifle would be? I've come up with some conservative stats for such and weapon and they're nasty enough

[Diablo48]

No, just imagine if someone figures out how to stamp rifle ammo with "made after 3020" .......
Honestly, the rifles are useful... and would be a great place to use applied engineering and learning to make a better ballistic weapon for future improvements.

Right, because there are obviously no construction differences between the old rifles and the more modern autocannons like barrel pressure which would prevent the old guns from matching the performance of more modern weapons. ::)

[SCC]

Right, because there are obviously no construction differences between the old rifles and the more modern autocannons like barrel pressure which would prevent the old guns from matching the performance of more modern weapons. ::)

And there's nothing saying that that same AC tech can't be used to upgrade the Rifles? At the very least it should be able to help the ammo, at least if Rifles and/or AC's use exploding shot

[Diablo48]

And there's nothing saying that that same AC tech can't be used to upgrade the Rifles? At the very least it should be able to help the ammo, at least if Rifles and/or AC's use exploding shot

That would produce various classes of autocannons.  Remember, the ACs are the direct successors to the Rifles and they are both fairly conventional firearms, so an upgrade with the new AC technology would turn the Rifle in question into an autocannon.