Change in ES and FF

[anime ninja]

I have a crazy idea, what if when ES and FF were brought in to the game they have to fill the follow slots:
2x LA, RA, LT, RT
1x LL, RL and CT

that would mean that a mech with ES and FF would lose 4 off each arm, both free leg slots and the center torso filled.

What do people think?

[Sandslice]

First off, there are more armours than ferro-fibrous, and (at least in Advanced rules) more structures than endo.  There's also the matter of Clan gear, as well as other flexible-slot items like TSM.

Second, without using compact engine (+3 CT slots) and/or gyro (+2 CT slots,) several things become impossible if you use either endo or ferro:

-Endo and ferro together
-Blue Shield, Null-Sig, or Void-Sig
-Mechanical jump boosters
-AES on quads (the forelegs = a biped's arms)
-Improved jump jets in legs
-Clan DHS in legs?
-Engine Supercharger (unless you use an XLE, which allows it to go in the side torso instead)
-Torso Cockpit

I'm sure I'm missing a few things, but really: why do you want to nerf light 'Mechs?  XD

[BirdofPrey]

Trust me, for an IS chassis at least, the large number of crits that are lost is already a huge hurdle to overcome to design an efficient mech.  They don't really need any more factors working to their detriment.

[evilauthor]

Second, without using compact engine (+3 CT slots) and/or gyro (+2 CT slots,) several things become impossible if you use either endo or ferro:

-Endo and ferro together

Why is it impossible to use these two together? According to the OP, both only take a single crit in the CT and each Leg. The CT and Legs each have 2 free crit spaces available. The arms and side torsos certainly have enough crit spaces to spare 4 crit spaces each for both Endo and FF.

Okay, that said, making crit allocation fixed for Endo and FF means mech sections are much more constrained in what they can carry. Namely, the big bulky stuff like AC/20 or even large quantities of DHS become more difficult to place, perhaps even impossible. Just using one leaves the mech with...

10 crits in each Side Torso
8 crits in each Arm (assuming no Lower Arm and Hand actuators are installed)
1 crit in the CT and each Leg

And this is before you add in things like XL Engines, DHS, or other space eating equipment. You can no longer put a vanilla AC/20 in the arm without  splitting crits. Nor can you crit pack with DHS as efficiently; none of these sections is a multiple of 3 so when crit packing with DHS, there's a grand total of SEVEN crit slots (enough for two Inner Sphere DHS or three Clan DHS) you can't use because they're spread around the mech in one crit chunks you can't group together.

[anime ninja]

I was think that this was when it was first introduced.  Most of the items below were not even planned out by the design team in the 80's when FF and ES were first introduced.

I have it as TRO 2750 when they were introduced.  Was there a book before that with Star League equipment?

First off, there are more armours than ferro-fibrous, and (at least in Advanced rules) more structures than endo.  There's also the matter of Clan gear, as well as other flexible-slot items like TSM.

Second, without using compact engine (+3 CT slots) and/or gyro (+2 CT slots,) several things become impossible if you use either endo or ferro:

-Endo and ferro together
-Blue Shield, Null-Sig, or Void-Sig
-Mechanical jump boosters
-AES on quads (the forelegs = a biped's arms)
-Improved jump jets in legs
-Clan DHS in legs?
-Engine Supercharger (unless you use an XLE, which allows it to go in the side torso instead)
-Torso Cockpit

I'm sure I'm missing a few things, but really: why do you want to nerf light 'Mechs?  XD

[Sandslice]

Why is it impossible to use these two together? According to the OP, both only take a single crit in the CT and each Leg. The CT and Legs each have 2 free crit spaces available. The arms and side torsos certainly have enough crit spaces to spare 4 crit spaces each for both Endo and FF.

Probably because I was mentally filling in a gap: the OP's allocation only uses 11 slots, where 14 are expected.

I was think that this was when it was first introduced.  Most of the items below were not even planned out by the design team in the 80's when FF and ES were first introduced.
I have it as TRO 2750 when they were introduced.  Was there a book before that with Star League equipment?

Nah, most of what I'm talking about are in the current core books, TechManual and Tactical Operations, and are technologies introduced in the late 3050s and early 3060s - and the Clans started in TRO 3050.

So, reconsidering this as a historical what-if... what if FASA had created endo and ferro with those aspects instead of what we know, and only considering Star League and Succession Wars tech.

1.  The effect of endo-ferro-XL, the common weight-saving spam move:
Arms: 4-6 cs.  Side Torsos: 5.  Head: 1.  This gives you 19-23 critical spaces, before adjusting for sub-250 engines.  It's not such a big problem for lights, since they have a hard time using the space; but they can't really use DHS with the combination.  Gauss is impossible.

Mediums could run into problems, especially the 4/6 troopers which have crit-slotted engine heat sinks already.

2.  Even dropping ferro:
Arms: 6-8 cs.  ST: 7  CT, legs, and head: 1
Slightly better, though splitting the AC/20 is still mandatory, and even the Arrow IV Artillery is barely possible.  You would need to be quite sparing on the DHS.  At least you can mount Gauss now.

3.  Dropping the XLE instead, because to heck with XLEs:
Arms: 4-6  ST: 8  Head: 1
It *looks* like a lot of space, but Arrow IV is impossible again (not that it'd be all that easy without the weight savings of the XLE anyway...) while the AC/20 is still mandatory split-location.  Gauss is still barely doable in the torso, but not the arm.

I'll fix my assessment thusly: why do you want to nerf mediums? ;D

[anime ninja]

I wanted to see what people thought, I was think that it would hurt some mechs and help others.  You might see different design ideas but it was something I was thinking about when I was looking at the mech sheets and adding in the XL engine.

[Sandslice]

I wanted to see what people thought, I was think that it would hurt some mechs and help others.  You might see different design ideas but it was something I was thinking about when I was looking at the mech sheets and adding in the XL engine.

The fact that each only takes 11 crits (instead of 14 in canon) might be slightly helpful to some, but using more than one weight-saving tech definitely hurts anyone hoping to use bulky items - items that are driving you to use the weight-saving techs to begin with.

[Acolyte]

You could have the IS version that each requires 1 in every location but the head, and the Clan version is more flexable in it's locations. The same number, but greater flexability for the clans.

   - Shane

[ialdabaoth]

I have a crazy idea, what if when ES and FF were brought in to the game they have to fill the follow slots:
2x LA, RA, LT, RT
1x LL, RL and CT

that would mean that a mech with ES and FF would lose 4 off each arm, both free leg slots and the center torso filled.

What do people think?

I would have been much, much happier with such a system. (By this system, I suppose TSM would mount 2 slots per arm and 1 slot per leg, making it compatible with ES or FF, but not both. I'm okay with that.)