Author Topic: Who is your favorite Villain? (Read 13051 times)

Minemech · « **Reply #90 on:** 02 July 2020, 07:42:40 »

An alternative reading of Katherine's success is that the Federated Commonwealth was institutionally weak, and vulnerable from its inception.

Daryk · « **Reply #91 on:** 02 July 2020, 15:00:48 »

Vulnerable sure, but it still took someone acting in bad faith to kill it.

Nightsong · « **Reply #92 on:** 03 July 2020, 01:38:57 »

I’ve seen some fan stories that have Katherine go with a non-combat MOS to tick that check mark, though she usually isn’t a problem in those due to either military discipline or her washing out due to whatever mental issues. Could have been a way to patch that hole, save for her massive ego. Everything screams “I can’t hear your laws over the sound of my massive narcissism!”

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire · « **Reply #93 on:** 03 July 2020, 01:42:44 »

It was obvious OOC to set her as the complete foil to Victor, yes.

Hellraiser · « **Reply #94 on:** 03 July 2020, 16:37:33 »

Correct me if I'm wrong here but Katherine was never actually First Prince of the FC.

Victor was.

He left, and he put Yvonne in charge as "Regent"

She felt she was failing so as "Regent" she reached out to her sister to take her place as "Regent".

Then Victor returned &, while on Luthien, he decided NOT to press the issue & take back his throne.

He could have, but by then, while acting as "Regent" Katie had moved a lot of units around to have those Loyal to her in a position to force the issue into a military confrontation.

Jackson had more claim to the throne, at that point than Katie did "Legally" but as shown by Bishop, you can only do so much to remove the tyrant if you don't have numerical superiority among loyal troops in the vicinity.

I think at best Jackson could have shot her & then been killed himself by her guards.

But its not like standing up to her would have done much at that point.

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire · « **Reply #95 on:** 03 July 2020, 17:27:52 »

Kathrine declared herself "First Princess" basically the moment she took over for Yvonne. Jackson went along with it, like he went along with basically everything she said, supporting her as the "legitimate ruler" of the Federated Commonwealth. If he'd actually had a problem with anything she did, he could have easily resigned his commission and sat out the war on Arc Royal, Outreach, or some other planet. But he didn't.

Hellraiser · « **Reply #96 on:** 03 July 2020, 17:45:48 »

She declared it but it doesn't make it legal.

But what was legal, AFAIK, was Yvonne passing over regency to her, which is effectively the same thing.

Some commanders are going to follow those orders.

Others are going to have selective hearing issues.

But she was invited to New Avalon by the Regent is my point.

How she manipulated her way to get there isn't the point, just that she was invited there & legally took over the regency.

So with that in mind, Jackson wasn't a complete traitor by following orders.

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire · « **Reply #97 on:** 03 July 2020, 18:00:41 »

The point is that Kathrine didn't declare herself to be regent, she declared herself to be the legitimate ruler, and Jackson supporter her in that.

Hellraiser · « **Reply #98 on:** 03 July 2020, 18:35:13 »

Do we have that in canon?
A source that says the minute she showed up she made a public declaration?
AFAIK that all occurred off screen during the TF:Serpent novels.

And just because you don't quit or shoot her doesn't mean you LIKE what she is doing.
Maybe his first concern was making sure the FS didn't break down into a civil war & be weaker for enemies in the DC/CC to attack.

Similar to how Morgan didn't like that Katie was on the throne of the LA so he set up the ARDC to focus on what he felt was the more important issue, a huge boarder with the Falcons.

Jackson might have just been trying to keep the FS running day to day.
Well, till civil war broke out anyway, but at that point a couple years had passed & as I said, its a little hard to remove someone who now has several loyal RCTs in the neighborhood.

Ruger · « **Reply #99 on:** 03 July 2020, 19:09:19 »

Quote from: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 03 July 2020, 17:27:52

Kathrine declared herself "First Princess" basically the moment she took over for Yvonne. Jackson went along with it, like he went along with basically everything she said, supporting her as the "legitimate ruler" of the Federated Commonwealth. If he'd actually had a problem with anything she did, he could have easily resigned his commission and sat out the war on Arc Royal, Outreach, or some other planet. But he didn't.

But is not the title “First Prince” what all legitimate rulers of the FedSuns, even female ones used? And therefore, Katherine taking the title of “First Princess” was something different from “First Prince”.

Semantics sure, but that’s sometimes what legal systems are based on.

Ruger

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire · « **Reply #100 on:** 03 July 2020, 21:07:24 »

Quote from: Ruger on 03 July 2020, 19:09:19

But is not the title “First Prince” what all legitimate rulers of the FedSuns, even female ones used? And therefore, Katherine taking the title of “First Princess” was something different from “First Prince”.

Semantics sure, but that’s sometimes what legal systems are based on.

Ruger

Different from First Prince or not, she was still declaring herself the legal head of state rather than the regent.

Quote from: Hellraiser on 03 July 2020, 18:35:13

Do we have that in canon?
A source that says the minute she showed up she made a public declaration?
AFAIK that all occurred off screen during the TF:Serpent novels.

And just because you don't quit or shoot her doesn't mean you LIKE what she is doing.
Maybe his first concern was making sure the FS didn't break down into a civil war & be weaker for enemies in the DC/CC to attack.

Similar to how Morgan didn't like that Katie was on the throne of the LA so he set up the ARDC to focus on what he felt was the more important issue, a huge boarder with the Falcons.

Jackson might have just been trying to keep the FS running day to day.
Well, till civil war broke out anyway, but at that point a couple years had passed & as I said, its a little hard to remove someone who now has several loyal RCTs in the neighborhood.

Morgan was never a member of the Lyran military, and his actions were a declaration that he wasn't going to just take orders from Kathrine. Jackson, by contrast, continued to follow her until well after it was clear that she was through. If he'd really opposed her actions, he had other things he could have done: trying to arrest or assassinate her might have been an unrealistic goal but he could have easily done what Adam Steiner eventually did and declared himself and his forces neutral in the conflict. That would have done a lot to weaken her.

Hellraiser · « **Reply #101 on:** 06 July 2020, 19:23:58 »

Quote from: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 03 July 2020, 21:07:24

Different from First Prince or not, she was still declaring herself the legal head of state rather than the regent.

Declared all she wants, what held her in power was regiments loyal to her being nearby.
That and the fact that every other S-D heir was off world at that point.
All she had legally was Regency which is why she used the title "First Princess".

Quote

Morgan was never a member of the Lyran military,

Since when? He served with the LCAF in the 10th L.Guard & 10th Skye Rangers both after graduating from Nagelring with record scores.

Quote

If he'd really opposed her actions, he had other things he could have done: trying to arrest or assassinate her might have been an unrealistic goal but he could have easily done what Adam Steiner eventually did and declared himself and his forces neutral in the conflict. That would have done a lot to weaken her.

What forces did Jackson have loyal directly to him & where were they?
And there was no conflict till after she had been in power for a few months & in that time had already made changes like removing Ardan as Prince's Champion which she also didn't have any legal right to do but if people chose to follow her orders, well, it was more than Jackson choosing to just follow the person sitting on the throne.
Victor was outside the IS when it happened & when he got back he chose not to act right then when he had the power to do so & the full momentum if a grateful IS behind him.

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire · « **Reply #102 on:** 06 July 2020, 20:21:05 »

Quote from: Hellraiser on 06 July 2020, 19:23:58

Since when? He served with the LCAF in the 10th L.Guard & 10th Skye Rangers both after graduating from Nagelring with record scores.

Sorry, that should have been he was never part of the Lyran military while Kathrine was in charge- he was an independent noble by that time who was in charge of his own force.

Quote

What forces did Jackson have loyal directly to him & where were they?
And there was no conflict till after she had been in power for a few months & in that time had already made changes like removing Ardan as Prince's Champion which she also didn't have any legal right to do but if people chose to follow her orders, well, it was more than Jackson choosing to just follow the person sitting on the throne.
Victor was outside the IS when it happened & when he got back he chose not to act right then when he had the power to do so & the full momentum if a grateful IS behind him.

Jackson was the freaking Marshal of the Armies by that point. He had a much better claim on the personal loyalty of the entire FedSuns armed forces than Kathrine did.

rim_pirate · « **Reply #103 on:** 07 July 2020, 00:53:00 »

Just a shower thought:
Maybe Hanse deliberately dissuaded / distracted / redirected Katherine from serving the required time to prevent her from legally claiming First Princeship because he had his suspicions about her predilections. However, the heart attack also put to rest any plans he might have had on assuring she would end up advising Victor in political matters rather than antagonizing him.

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire · « **Reply #104 on:** 07 July 2020, 01:24:11 »

That's theoretically possible, but she was only 19 when he died. It's equally possible that he planned for her to go into the military but it got derailed by the Clan invasion. Had he lived, he might have set her up to go in in 53 or 54 and then serve somewhere well away from the Clan border (no need to put multiple members of the family in harm's way).

Colt Ward · « **Reply #105 on:** 07 July 2020, 01:45:00 »

Still comes back to Victor should have had someone on Tharkad to report the tragic accident of Katherine falling down the stairs when she tried anything.

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire · « **Reply #106 on:** 07 July 2020, 02:06:34 »

It's amazing how many things in the Inner Sphere could have been solved with a flight of stairs and a good shove.

vaderi · « **Reply #107 on:** 07 July 2020, 04:08:28 »

Quote from: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 07 July 2020, 02:06:34

It's amazing how many things in the Inner Sphere could have been solved with a flight of stairs and a good shove.

It's amusing how many things in the Inner Sphere have been solved with a flight of stairs and a good shove. :D

Mecha82 · « **Reply #108 on:** 07 July 2020, 05:41:16 »

I just wish that things had been written better than just have them to make VSD this great hero when even that wasn't done well. Way characters and events are written effect how we see those either positively or negatively. And that is were my dislike for VSD comes from. He was written as Gary Stu without any of his father's talents while also using him as deus ex machina while having others like Kat written just so that he would look good in comparison. Honestly I think that it's bad chracterization and storytelling if you need to do that in order to have some character on pedastal. Sorry for rant but it does bother me.

TobrukRat · « **Reply #109 on:** 13 August 2020, 20:39:41 »

Katherine Steiner-Davion - i know she is the bad guy, so to speak, but ive always played on her side of the Civil war, some one has to play the baddies and im drawn to her style of cartoony badness

Kit deSummersville · « **Reply #110 on:** 14 August 2020, 13:22:40 »

Quote from: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 07 July 2020, 02:06:34

It's amazing how many things in the Inner Sphere could have been solved with a flight of stairs and a good shove.

Characters or writers?

Jaim Magnus · « **Reply #111 on:** 14 August 2020, 17:06:59 »

Quote from: Kit deSummersville on 14 August 2020, 13:22:40

Characters or writers?

Yes.

Jhousdan · « **Reply #112 on:** 20 August 2020, 17:25:21 »

Takashi Kurita.... and I've always envisioned him looking and sounding like the actor Danny Kamekona

Kurita always had the best villians... there was a sense of honor (even if it was sometimes misplaced), and Takashi was a character you could respect, even if you didn't like him.

Vonshroom · « **Reply #113 on:** 13 September 2020, 23:40:51 »

Quote from: Hellraiser on 03 July 2020, 16:37:33

Correct me if I'm wrong here but Katherine was never actually First Prince of the FC.

Victor was.

He left, and he put Yvonne in charge as "Regent"

She felt she was failing so as "Regent" she reached out to her sister to take her place as "Regent".

Then Victor returned &, while on Luthien, he decided NOT to press the issue & take back his throne.

He could have, but by then, while acting as "Regent" Katie had moved a lot of units around to have those Loyal to her in a position to force the issue into a military confrontation.

Jackson had more claim to the throne, at that point than Katie did "Legally" but as shown by Bishop, you can only do so much to remove the tyrant if you don't have numerical superiority among loyal troops in the vicinity.

I think at best Jackson could have shot her & then been killed himself by her guards.

But its not like standing up to her would have done much at that point.

Victor's actions really from the time of the Clan Invasion forward made him unfit for leadership in my eyes. Certainly when he abdicated the throne to Katherine after returning with Serpent he forfeited any right to lead the FedCom in my minds eye. I like the fact that Katrina actually strove to lead her nation, even if it was done with some shady intentions. Ultimately as others have pointed out Katrina / Katherine is not the best written character, and a lot of her actions were only written into canon to provide an antagonistic figure to the Victor lovefest, something I was never on board with.

Katrina / Katherine is definitely my favorite "villain" and considering the information that I would have available to me as a low-mid tier mechwarrior serving in the LAAF, I would have followed her and supported her with the utmost conviction. While Katherine's motivations did not always have the best interest of the FedCom or Alliance in mind, from a non-omnipotent in universe point of view, she certainly would have appeared to be in the right through the whole civil war. What I do not understand is why anyone who didn't directly serve under Victor as a commander would want to support him, given his extremely wishy-washy attitude and constantly ceding power. From a realistic point of view had Victor come to lead the FedCom he would have sold it out to the Dracs, all while he was off on some far flung world fighting for a stupid cause.

The only thing to really dislike about Katherine is the weird scheming and assassination bit (of her own family members) and the weird narcissism / megalomaniac syndrome which seemed inserted only for plot furtherance, and considering from an in universe point of view I would have no knowledge of this, I'd be a loyalist. ;)

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire · « **Reply #114 on:** 14 September 2020, 00:20:28 »

The problem with Kathrine is that even from an in-universe, non-omnicient POV she was pretty clearly incompetent. She undid a quarter century's work of removing the social generals from the LCAF/LAAF, her handling of the Falcon invasion of Coventry appeared to be "do nothing" (in fact, she flat out disappeared for much of it), and once she got into control of the Federated Suns she immediately abandoned Tharkad in favor of New Avalon. And she sold out the Saint Ives Compact to the Capellans. People picked up on this- that's why she was facing open insurrection on multiple worlds by 3062.