Author Topic: Androids aka Infantry Drones in BT? (Read 9286 times)

M4nG4n · « **on:** 24 May 2020, 04:55:56 »

Recently on Facebook, somebody asked, why we don't have a robotic humanoids, known otherwise as androids. Especially 100 years later, in 3150. The tech in BT would surely allow to create these, since we have Mechs, cybernetics and some sort of AI.

I think that Robotic Infantry would be nice to implement...

Daryk · « **Reply #1 on:** 24 May 2020, 05:10:58 »

In universe, pathological fear of unfettered AI.

Out of universe, that would be "aliens" by another means, and that's not what BT is meant to be about.

M4nG4n · « **Reply #2 on:** 24 May 2020, 06:13:24 »

Quote from: Daryk on 24 May 2020, 05:10:58

In universe, pathological fear of unfettered AI.

Out of universe, that would be "aliens" by another means, and that's not what BT is meant to be about.

I was rather thinking to slave them as SDS, or even autonomous drones like Revenant or Lich if required, not the emerging construct like "The Broken".

Daryk · « **Reply #3 on:** 24 May 2020, 06:30:57 »

After the fall of the Star League to a subverted SDS, there's all kinds of resistance to even that basic level of automation.

RifleMech · « **Reply #4 on:** 24 May 2020, 07:02:24 »

Exterminate! Exterminate!

You will be upgraded.

Resistance is futile.

Daryk · « **Reply #5 on:** 24 May 2020, 07:05:12 »

Exactly! :D

Retry · « **Reply #6 on:** 24 May 2020, 11:29:35 »

The Human Race can make a huge hive mind out of multi-megaton warships, build (and destroy) the gigantic O'Neil station for millions of filthy rich folk, terraform and colonize Venus of all places, but stuff a tiny hive mind in a PAL suit? Oh, now you've gone too far!

So we have tiny vee-based drones (Pathtrack and NapFind), and we also have larger walking designs in Battlemech-scale drones (Revenant). In-universe, it shouldn't take much to put two-and-two together and come up with a basic robotic BA-scale drone, at least.

monbvol · « **Reply #7 on:** 24 May 2020, 11:36:58 »

I seem to recall in the first edition of the RPG human sized security drones were mentioned as being a thing but beyond that I can't remember anything being said about them and don't have the book to check.

I have some poorly balanced rules floating around that I need to probably rework from the ground up for how I'd do something like this.

Another reason we probably don't have them from a real world perspective is to avoid the wrath of at one point Lucas but now Disney.

dgorsman · « **Reply #8 on:** 24 May 2020, 11:52:11 »

One of the problems with Jihad: Final Reckoning is happening here too. In that book there was a piece on WoB technology and it switched between remotely piloted and robotic units, freely using the term 'drone' for both. So what are we talking about here? Remotely piloted battle armor, or terminator-style robotic drones?

monbvol · « **Reply #9 on:** 24 May 2020, 12:23:03 »

OP seems to be looking more for Terminator and the original RPG from what I remember went that way as well.

Daryk · « **Reply #10 on:** 24 May 2020, 12:46:08 »

Retry: the "huge hive mind" is what terrified its inventors... why would you think they'd try to miniaturize that? ???

Mendrugo · « **Reply #11 on:** 24 May 2020, 13:04:09 »

Quote from: M4nG4n on 24 May 2020, 04:55:56

Recently on Facebook, somebody asked, why we don't have a robotic humanoids, known otherwise as androids. Especially 100 years later, in 3150. The tech in BT would surely allow to create these, since we have Mechs, cybernetics and some sort of AI.

I think that Robotic Infantry would be nice to implement...

Crescent Hawk’s Inception had a training scenario where Jason practiced anti-infantry tactics against outmoded humanoid labor robots mounting infantry weapons.

Retry · « **Reply #12 on:** 24 May 2020, 13:56:41 »

Quote from: Daryk on 24 May 2020, 12:46:08

Retry: the "huge hive mind" is what terrified its inventors... why would you think they'd try to miniaturize that? ???

Why? Because it's a tad difficult to provide internal security for hardened planetary-based guns or SDS Warships with a Rattler.

Whether the original inventors would have been opposed to androids doesn't matter, as the SLDF likely wouldn't have been able to produce them (no real BA existed), and the planetary elements of the SDS were basically forts. The original inventors don't have a vote as they're long since dead. The next users of the concept who would have been capable of producing infantry-drones are the Wobbies, and they clearly weren't all that terrified of the concept (or anything else really), else they wouldn't have re-invented the SDS, twice.(Caspar II and CARS)

Daryk · « **Reply #13 on:** 24 May 2020, 18:30:19 »

And what happened to the WoB again? ::)

Retry · « **Reply #14 on:** 24 May 2020, 19:59:37 »

Quote from: Daryk on 24 May 2020, 18:30:19

And what happened to the WoB again? ::)

So what? They had Terra for around a decade. That's way more than enough time to develop an Android BA model if they wanted to.

Daryk · « **Reply #15 on:** 24 May 2020, 20:02:27 »

And when Terra fell, it would have been thrown straight into the fire...

ckosacranoid · « **Reply #16 on:** 24 May 2020, 22:11:29 »

We do have ai....It's called the Cali nebula with the autobots....

Liam's Ghost · « **Reply #17 on:** 24 May 2020, 22:50:56 »

The Kell hounds scenario pack has an infantry sized tracked security drone that could qualify as robotic infantry (carries twin infantry machine guns). Mechwarrior 1st edition has a five ton security robot that is functionally similar to an autonomous savannah master (two small lasers, very fast)

Both of these can be, if not duplicated, then at least closely copied under current rules. The infantry drone could be a small support vehicle, the Hover drone can be a straight combat vehicle, both equipped with smart robotic control systems. And they're small enough that it wouldn't take any extra mass to mount.

The important limit on them however, is that any ECM system will scramble them good. This is arguably the reason why you wouldn't see them in large numbers on a battlefield. At the point where the technology was plentiful, so was the counter.

(the Star League did develop a shielded version of the control system, but it never got past aerospace units before the league went boom).

Quote from: ckosacranoid on 24 May 2020, 22:11:29

We do have ai....It's called the Cali nebula with the autobots....

That's like saying we have wizards and something resembling but legally distinct from superman.

Retry · « **Reply #18 on:** 25 May 2020, 00:05:15 »

Quote from: Daryk on 24 May 2020, 20:02:27

And when Terra fell, it would have been thrown straight into the fire...

Maybe, in which case it goes the way of all the other weird fancy techs from the resident weirdos (Wobbies & Society) that go extinct like Void, LAMs, the superheavy mobile structures and that odd Blakist space missile weapon.

Yet all of those exist(ed) in universe and most of those are statted out.

Charistoph · « **Reply #19 on:** 25 May 2020, 01:57:13 »

Automated battle armor got a bad rap from historical archives of a terrorist troop who tried the same thing, but it failed to have a significant impact. Some tried to place blame on the producer, James McCullen, but making it have room for a potential pilot or passenger may have been the real culprit. The System: Neutralizer - Armed Kloaking Equipment was poorly armored and unable to withstand sustained small arms fire. The lighter and smaller Battle Android Troopers didn't rely on the heavier armor of the older model, but still had issues surviving against small arms fire sufficiently better than the standard trooper to justify the cost, so the concept was scrapped when decision to launch the Jihad was made.

Yo Joe!

HABeas2 · « **Reply #20 on:** 25 May 2020, 05:23:22 »

Quote from: ckosacranoid on 24 May 2020, 22:11:29

We do have ai....It's called the Cali nebula with the autobots....

Those California Nebula AI's are actually described as "fake" AIs, designed to simulate human-like behavior, but ultimately programmed with certain limits. (For instance, the case of the Star Seeker/MechaTankus dynamic, in which both *want* to destroy each other, but cannot actually do so deliberately.)

Also, California Nebula is not really canon. Just an official "for-fun" project we did back in my day.

- Herb

PuppyLikesLaserPointers · « **Reply #21 on:** 25 May 2020, 05:50:32 »

I am always think that automaton/remote control Battle Armor seems a wonderful addition to the game. It brings some infantries without fear for losing the human life, in the game that biped giant robots are dominate the battlefield. Battle Armor is nothing but expendable asset on mech to mech battle so it makes us to field more Battle Armors without much burden. Why not?

Personally I am also want to see the automaton crews(or parts) on the vehicles. Only the commander, and possibly the driver, needs to be true human being I think. Combat Vehicles in Battletech universe requires too ridiculous amount of crews and I'd just ruled that androids and automated components are replace the crew's seat.

RifleMech · « **Reply #22 on:** 25 May 2020, 06:09:52 »

Quote from: Daryk on 24 May 2020, 07:05:12

Exactly! :D

:D

Quote from: monbvol on 24 May 2020, 12:23:03

OP seems to be looking more for Terminator and the original RPG from what I remember went that way as well.

"I'll be back."

I think that after the Star League Civil War that no one was interested in recreating Skynet. Turned out that Casper wasn't that friendly after all.

Quote from: Liam's Ghost on 24 May 2020, 22:50:56

The Kell hounds scenario pack has an infantry sized tracked security drone that could qualify as robotic infantry (carries twin infantry machine guns). Mechwarrior 1st edition has a five ton security robot that is functionally similar to an autonomous savannah master (two small lasers, very fast)

Both of these can be, if not duplicated, then at least closely copied under current rules. The infantry drone could be a small support vehicle, the Hover drone can be a straight combat vehicle, both equipped with smart robotic control systems. And they're small enough that it wouldn't take any extra mass to mount.

I was just thinking about them! Didn't Herb stat them out a while ago?

[/quote]

Quote

That's like saying we have wizards and something resembling but legally distinct from superman.

It worked for Marvel.

None of them have a lock on the concept. The trick is to make them different but equal. Although I do suspect some of the reason is to avoid problems. I'm not sure how they could be introduced without some comparison to something else.

Quote from: HABeas2 on 25 May 2020, 05:23:22

Those California Nebula AI's are actually described as "fake" AIs, designed to simulate human-like behavior, but ultimately programmed with certain limits. (For instance, the case of the Star Seeker/MechaTankus dynamic, in which both *want* to destroy each other, but cannot actually do so deliberately.)

Also, California Nebula is not really canon. Just an official "for-fun" project we did back in my day.

- Herb

Wouldn't their being "fake" AIs along with the backstory for the planet and their technological capabilities and inabilities make them different to publish officially?

An official "for-fun" project we need more of! ;D

Quote from: PuppyLikesLaserPointers on 25 May 2020, 05:50:32

I am always think that automaton/remote control Battle Armor seems a wonderful addition to the game. It brings some infantries without fear for losing the human life, in the game that biped giant robots are dominate the battlefield. Battle Armor is nothing but expendable asset on mech to mech battle so it makes us to field more Battle Armors without much burden. Why not?

Personally I am also want to see the automaton crews(or parts) on the vehicles. Only the commander, and possibly the driver, needs to be true human being I think. Combat Vehicles in Battletech universe requires too ridiculous amount of crews and I'd just ruled that androids and automated components are replace the crew's seat.

"By your command."

I think it's technically possible. It's just that they have so much baggage that even regular drones are rare.

Also we do have rules for automated weapons. We just need rules allowing us to use them on vehicles to match their fluff. If we had rules to make the old Kell Hound drones that would be cool too. Then we could make our own and the universe wouldn't care.

HABeas2 · « **Reply #23 on:** 25 May 2020, 12:10:48 »

Quote from: RifleMech on 25 May 2020, 06:09:52

I think that after the Star League Civil War that no one was interested in recreating Skynet. Turned out that Casper wasn't that friendly after all.

It was less about that and more about the fact that you could turn the entire network against its masters by getting the codes via a simple con job.

Quote

I was just thinking about them! Didn't Herb stat them out a while ago?

Not sure if *I* did that, but I believe the Hi-Scout Drone Carrier's NapFind and PathTrack could count as statted robots. I statted a couple fighter drones, one of which I used in the Jardine saga. Sarna seems to show stats for a few robots, though some like the Marik Security Robot are fragmentary specs at best (the Marik robot claims it has 10 *tons* of armor, but something tells me that's not right; I don't have a copy of the SB it showed up in, though.)

Quote

Wouldn't their being "fake" AIs along with the backstory for the planet and their technological capabilities and inabilities make them different to publish officially?

Not with enough serial numbers filed off. Transforming robots, sentient or otherwise, aren't copyright protected unto themselves.

Quote

An official "for-fun" project we need more of! ;D

Well, they took MY keys away for that, but hey, they could certainly try...

FYI: If nobody's mentioned this yet, building units under 10 tons in mass with a Smart Robotics Control System (see Interstellar Operations, p. 140) basically lets you make some very small Support Vehicles that might fit your bill for infantry-sized units without any extra mass devoted to robotic control (at unit masses under 10 ton, the SRCS weighs as much as the unit's normal control systems, making it just as easy to build a robotic vehicle as it does a human-operated one). Though there are no formal Mech building rules that can work at that scale, but small tracked, wheeled, and hover units are possible.... And, of course, if you're just doing your own rules, this is entirely academic.

- Herb

Daryk · « **Reply #24 on:** 25 May 2020, 12:19:29 »

I don't think I'd characterize the Amaris Coup as a "simple" con job...

Pat Payne · « **Reply #25 on:** 25 May 2020, 12:25:29 »

Quote from: Retry on 24 May 2020, 11:29:35

walking designs in Battlemech-scale drones (Revenant).

Given that even normal conventional WoB mech designs were pretty much considered toxic to everyone else after the Jihad ended (MUL says they all went extinct soon after), methinks there wasn't going to be much enthusiasm to try and perfect the toaster-worshippers' drone Mech technology.

Maingunnery · « **Reply #26 on:** 25 May 2020, 14:09:03 »

Quote from: HABeas2 on 25 May 2020, 12:10:48

FYI: If nobody's mentioned this yet, building units under 10 tons in mass with a Smart Robotics Control System (see Interstellar Operations, p. 140) basically lets you make some very small Support Vehicles that might fit your bill for infantry-sized units without any extra mass devoted to robotic control (at unit masses under 10 ton, the SRCS weighs as much as the unit's normal control systems, making it just as easy to build a robotic vehicle as it does a human-operated one). Though there are no formal Mech building rules that can work at that scale, but small tracked, wheeled, and hover units are possible.... And, of course, if you're just doing your own rules, this is entirely academic.

Yes, several people (including myself) have created platoons of tiny Support Vehicle Drones (100kg each x 30 pcs). Generally it is assume that the entire swarm/platoon functions as one unit and that ECM fields do 2D6 damage.

HABeas2 · « **Reply #27 on:** 25 May 2020, 15:58:35 »

Well, there you go then!

- Herb

Wolf72 · « **Reply #28 on:** 25 May 2020, 20:59:45 »

I know it's fudging, but hey it is Fan Designs and Rules.

If I wanted Android Troopers, I would just steal from the BA construction rules and fluff accordingly.

* no 1 point for 'trooper' inside ... it's all one unit
* would totally use the advanced rules for weight: each PA(L) (even if up to 400kg) is .25 tons transport weight (so 6 for 1.5 tons)

BATs and Battle Droids (Episode 1+) I would make PA(L)s that have 1 pt of armor and carry one or two infantry scale weapons (blaster rifles from Nebula C!!)

Super Battle Droids, ~~I would paint a red S on them and give them JJ~~, 2 points, possible a RL-1 or 2 and 2 infantry weapons.

Bigger/Beefier: go up the weight ranges for the rest of the BA.

You could get Cylons (old and new), Terminators (your standard ones, not metal goop guy), IGs, Cybermen, etc.

Some Battletech engineer/programmer could start a whole new era of despair and destruction because even though the 20th/21st centuries gave her/him lots of fiction to work with they didn't bother to use the 3 Laws (mostly because, its battle technology and we want to blow shit up.)

RifleMech · « **Reply #29 on:** 26 May 2020, 01:17:51 »

Quote from: HABeas2 on 25 May 2020, 12:10:48

It was less about that and more about the fact that you could turn the entire network against its masters by getting the codes via a simple con job.

And you have a very bad day.

Quote

Not sure if *I* did that, but I believe the Hi-Scout Drone Carrier's NapFind and PathTrack could count as statted robots. I statted a couple fighter drones, one of which I used in the Jardine saga. Sarna seems to show stats for a few robots, though some like the Marik Security Robot are fragmentary specs at best (the Marik robot claims it has 10 *tons* of armor, but something tells me that's not right; I don't have a copy of the SB it showed up in, though.)

My search foo worked! Yay! ;D
https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=37372.msg864709#msg864709

Quote

Not with enough serial numbers filed off. Transforming robots, sentient or otherwise, aren't copyright protected unto themselves.

>:D

Quote

Well, they took MY keys away for that, but hey, they could certainly try...

:'( :)Hope they do! >:D

Quote

FYI: If nobody's mentioned this yet, building units under 10 tons in mass with a Smart Robotics Control System (see Interstellar Operations, p. 140) basically lets you make some very small Support Vehicles that might fit your bill for infantry-sized units without any extra mass devoted to robotic control (at unit masses under 10 ton, the SRCS weighs as much as the unit's normal control systems, making it just as easy to build a robotic vehicle as it does a human-operated one). Though there are no formal Mech building rules that can work at that scale, but small tracked, wheeled, and hover units are possible.... And, of course, if you're just doing your own rules, this is entirely academic.

- Herb

>:D Sounds fun

Quote from: Wolf72 on 25 May 2020, 20:59:45

I know it's fudging, but hey it is Fan Designs and Rules.

If I wanted Android Troopers, I would just steal from the BA construction rules and fluff accordingly.

* no 1 point for 'trooper' inside ... it's all one unit
* would totally use the advanced rules for weight: each PA(L) (even if up to 400kg) is .25 tons transport weight (so 6 for 1.5 tons)

BATs and Battle Droids (Episode 1+) I would make PA(L)s that have 1 pt of armor and carry one or two infantry scale weapons (blaster rifles from Nebula C!!)

Super Battle Droids, ~~I would paint a red S on them and give them JJ~~, 2 points, possible a RL-1 or 2 and 2 infantry weapons.

Bigger/Beefier: go up the weight ranges for the rest of the BA.

You could get Cylons (old and new), Terminators (your standard ones, not metal goop guy), IGs, Cybermen, etc.

Some Battletech engineer/programmer could start a whole new era of despair and destruction because even though the 20th/21st centuries gave her/him lots of fiction to work with they didn't bother to use the 3 Laws (mostly because, its battle technology and we want to blow shit up.)

>:D

HABeas2 · « **Reply #30 on:** 26 May 2020, 01:56:42 »

Quote from: RifleMech on 26 May 2020, 01:17:51

My search foo worked! Yay! ;D
https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=37372.msg864709#msg864709
>:D

Fascinating. Wonder where I put that reference I used? Clearly it doesn't match the scraps of info Sarna had.

- Herb

RifleMech · « **Reply #31 on:** 26 May 2020, 03:09:43 »

I don't know. I'm just happy I found it. ;D

glitterboy2098 · « **Reply #32 on:** 27 May 2020, 06:08:46 »

Technically wouldn't the "automated mannequins of dubious moral value" produced on Dustball and mention in the old house Steiner guidebook count?

Maingunnery · « **Reply #33 on:** 27 May 2020, 06:53:36 »

Quote from: glitterboy2098 on 27 May 2020, 06:08:46

Technically wouldn't the "automated mannequins of dubious moral value" produced on Dustball and mention in the old house Steiner guidebook count?

But what would be the stats?
1 point of very soft armor? ;)

HABeas2 · « **Reply #34 on:** 27 May 2020, 08:44:57 »

Quote from: Maingunnery on 27 May 2020, 06:53:36

But what would be the stats?
1 point of very soft armor? ;)

BAR 0/0/0/0

- Herb

Mendrugo · « **Reply #35 on:** 27 May 2020, 08:51:44 »

Quote from: Maingunnery on 27 May 2020, 06:53:36

But what would be the stats?
1 point of very soft armor? ;)

Not the versions they use on Hardcore.

Talen5000 · « **Reply #36 on:** 27 May 2020, 09:21:53 »

Quote from: M4nG4n on 24 May 2020, 04:55:56

Recently on Facebook, somebody asked, why we don't have a robotic humanoids, known otherwise as androids. Especially 100 years later, in 3150. The tech in BT would surely allow to create these, since we have Mechs, cybernetics and some sort of AI.

I think that Robotic Infantry would be nice to implement...

Robots and androids do exist and have existed in the BTU. Security droids, mobile industrial robots for agriculture, construction, mining, etc. There are references to robotic sailriggers used on JumpShips and robotic tanks known as Guardians.

All present.

In universe, in the Inner Sphere, in the game, such units rare to the point of non existence.

Why?

No comprehensive reason is given. The true reason is that the BTU is written as a human centric universe and robots have a very limited role.

In universe, it isn't discussed but it can be presumed to fall into several categories.

Economic...in the typical time frame of the IS, the typical tech level of the IS appears to have settled around that of the late twentieth century. The support and manufacturing base needed to support androids and robots doesn't exist. With a large population base, there is also less economic pressure to re-develop the technology.

Technical...tying in with the economics, the robots that can be built are often not seen as being as flexible or as adaptable as humans. That could probably be remedied except the big reason seems to be.....

Cultural. There seems to be a general bias against robots, AI and human augmentation within the Inner Sphere. There have been several incidents which suggest robots going berserk has happened in the past, the FWL has its anti-cyberware bias, the Clans and WoB are seen as freaks, genetic science as a rule is not much different from today, genetic experiments such as Frobisher and the Toorima don't help.

In essence, the Inner Sphere doesn't appear to be a culture that welcomes robots, or AIs and one can presume that there is a history or untold story that justifies this aversion. As it is, the only two faction noted as making widespread use of robots and AIs are Terra and the Clans...and the Clans appear happy to keep the technology out of the IS in order to keep their populations busy, tired and out of trouble

Terra? Neither ComStar nor WoB would have shared the tech, Devlin Stone was encouraged to do so but that doesn't mean he did so, or that the offer was accepted if he did. If there is a cultural aversion to robots within the IS, it would be easy to see such help being rejected and seized upon to demonize the RotS.

beachhead1985 · « **Reply #37 on:** 27 May 2020, 13:14:36 »

They also mention training androids in the Warrior Trilogy, as I recall.

Maingunnery · « **Reply #38 on:** 27 May 2020, 13:24:38 »

Most of these androids would be in the 50-100 kg range, would that require an additional BA weight class, or would it be better to introduce Bipedal/Quad Support Vehicles?

beachhead1985 · « **Reply #39 on:** 27 May 2020, 14:58:11 »

Quote from: Maingunnery on 27 May 2020, 13:24:38

Most of these androids would be in the 50-100 kg range, would that require an additional BA weight class, or would it be better to introduce Bipedal/Quad Support Vehicles?

Well...In terms of getting it on the table top...could you not just make them as a very light PA(L)/Exoskeleton and house-rule the pilot as a drone?

Red Pins · « **Reply #40 on:** 27 May 2020, 18:59:58 »

Quote from: Wolf72 on 25 May 2020, 20:59:45

If I wanted Android Troopers, I would just steal from the BA construction rules and fluff accordingly.

Already done.

I'm working on a new project, the Blake Threat File, based in my AU. Somebody made a small drone called a Killwasp on the forum, apparently using the support rules - it will be used to attack civilian populations in the AU.

Don't worry, Herb, they get nuked. A lot. Lots of evil stuff.

HABeas2 · « **Reply #41 on:** 28 May 2020, 06:02:13 »

Quote from: Red Pins on 27 May 2020, 18:59:58

I'm working on a new project, the Blake Threat File, based in my AU. Somebody made a small drone called a Killwasp on the forum, apparently using the support rules - it will be used to attack civilian populations in the AU.

Don't worry, Herb, they get nuked. A lot. Lots of evil stuff.

The civilians or the drones?

- Herb

Red Pins · « **Reply #42 on:** 28 May 2020, 07:22:42 »

Good guys, bad guys, drones, 'mechs, lots of civilians, a bunch of the surviving WoB Warships, a lot of Primitive Jumpships get scrapped, and a 1st SW-type warfare gets turned into a bug hunt for terrorists (hence the Killwasps).

You'd love it. xp

Wolf72 · « **Reply #43 on:** 28 May 2020, 09:37:24 »

Some one make Daleks! No need to make them indestructible, this is a BT universe

robotic hover drone with an energy weapon (w/plenty of ammo/charges too). Have a second vtol model as well.

Maingunnery · « **Reply #44 on:** 28 May 2020, 10:59:37 »

Quote from: beachhead1985 on 27 May 2020, 14:58:11

Well...In terms of getting it on the table top...could you not just make them as a very light PA(L)/Exoskeleton and house-rule the pilot as a drone?

That kinda feels bad to abstract all those things as a single overweight (for them) drone Exoskeleton.
The range and options of the SV system feels more natural, but sadly we don't have canon biped/quad construction values.

HABeas2 · « **Reply #45 on:** 28 May 2020, 13:33:42 »

Quote from: Wolf72 on 28 May 2020, 09:37:24

Some one make Daleks! No need to make them indestructible, this is a BT universe

robotic hover drone with an energy weapon (w/plenty of ammo/charges too). Have a second vtol model as well.

Well, since Daleks are technically not robots, but organics inside a mobile armor suit, you could just as easily handwave them as a type of motorized infantry.

Or as a battle armor type.

- Herb

Wolf72 · « **Reply #46 on:** 28 May 2020, 14:43:05 »

would need to have people with dwarfism as pilots. Any other motive types beyond T.O.?

Or they wear the armor like a giant prom dress and their feet simply pitter patter along.

Charistoph · « **Reply #47 on:** 28 May 2020, 19:21:21 »

Quote from: Wolf72 on 28 May 2020, 14:43:05

would need to have people with dwarfism as pilots. Any other motive types beyond T.O.?

Or they wear the armor like a giant prom dress and their feet simply pitter patter along.

Well, didn't the Wobbies just go all X-Com for the Protomech pilots, and Dalaks aren't much more than a bunch of flesh little more than the size of the average human head.

Wolf72 · « **Reply #48 on:** 28 May 2020, 19:37:59 »

Quote from: Charistoph on 28 May 2020, 19:21:21

Well, didn't the Wobbies just go all X-Com for the Protomech pilots, and Dalaks aren't much more than a bunch of flesh little more than the size of the average human head.

Not up on my WoB lore, did they try to make some Protomech pilots? How'd they do? (obviously not to well, or if they did a clan caught wind of it and let WoB know Clans can play the destruction card too)

Liam's Ghost · « **Reply #49 on:** 28 May 2020, 19:46:00 »

Quote from: Wolf72 on 28 May 2020, 19:37:59

Not up on my WoB lore, did they try to make some Protomech pilots? How'd they do? (obviously not to well, or if they did a clan caught wind of it and let WoB know Clans can play the destruction card too)

The experiment might have gone better if they hadn't staged it on a planet they'd also hit with a zombie plague and an asteroid. ;D

Wolf72 · « **Reply #50 on:** 28 May 2020, 19:49:12 »

Quote from: Liam's Ghost on 28 May 2020, 19:46:00

The experiment might have gone better if they hadn't staged it on a planet they'd also hit with a zombie plague and an asteroid. ;D

Shit, they might as well have contracted out to Spaceballs!

HABeas2 · « **Reply #51 on:** 28 May 2020, 20:28:07 »

Quote from: Wolf72 on 28 May 2020, 19:37:59

Not up on my WoB lore, did they try to make some Protomech pilots? How'd they do? (obviously not to well, or if they did a clan caught wind of it and let WoB know Clans can play the destruction card too)

Quote from: Liam's Ghost on 28 May 2020, 19:46:00

The experiment might have gone better if they hadn't staged it on a planet they'd also hit with a zombie plague and an asteroid. ;D

Oh yeah, THOSE were fun! They were prototypes of the Inner Sphere ProtoMech Interface, which can be found in Interstellar Operations (p. 102). The gist of their approach involved chopping off both arms and both legs from the prospective pilot, and then wiring him directly into the machine. So no dwarfism was required at all; they simply tailored the pilots to fit! ;)

- Herb

beachhead1985 · « **Reply #52 on:** 28 May 2020, 20:35:48 »

Quote from: Maingunnery on 28 May 2020, 10:59:37

That kinda feels bad to abstract all those things as a single overweight (for them) drone Exoskeleton.
The range and options of the SV system feels more natural, but sadly we don't have canon biped/quad construction values.

it's not ideal, but after I logged off, I booted up HM:BA and I was able to make some "Battle Android Troopers" starting at 135kg. I think the weight of the pilot is included in that, but that would be subbed out with drone gear.

Far from perfect as I said.

Wolf72 · « **Reply #53 on:** 28 May 2020, 22:29:45 »

Quote from: HABeas2 on 28 May 2020, 20:28:07

Oh yeah, THOSE were fun! They were prototypes of the Inner Sphere ProtoMech Interface, which can be found in Interstellar Operations (p. 102). The gist of their approach involved chopping off both arms and both legs from the prospective pilot, and then wiring him directly into the machine. So no dwarfism was required at all; they simply tailored the pilots to fit! ;)

- Herb

dude, not cool! >:D

Like a few scifi books I read where children's brains (not quite sure on this one, possibly they had birth defects and would not have survived long normally?) or paraplegics were used as intelligence cores on starships

Red Pins · « **Reply #54 on:** 28 May 2020, 23:18:19 »

SHHHH!

YOU'RE GIVING IT AWAY!!

Btw, looked into a hover sped - VTOLs and 1/2 wheeled microtanks are more effective. BA drones actually work, but need tweaking.

Charistoph · « **Reply #55 on:** 29 May 2020, 02:54:45 »

Quote from: HABeas2 on 28 May 2020, 20:28:07

Oh yeah, THOSE were fun! They were prototypes of the Inner Sphere ProtoMech Interface, which can be found in Interstellar Operations (p. 102). The gist of their approach involved chopping off both arms and both legs from the prospective pilot, and then wiring him directly into the machine. So no dwarfism was required at all; they simply tailored the pilots to fit! ;)

- Herb

That's what I thought they did. And yeah, that's how the X-Com did it in Enemy Within. They removed the arms and legs to fit them in mecha armor, but gave them prosthetics to use when they weren't piloting. The Mech Suits couldn't use cover (and could be configured to BE cover) and had some pretty powerful weaponry. A lot of fun. X-Com 2 removed the human component entirely and you could build robots or "Sparks" as they called them.

Quote from: Wolf72 on 28 May 2020, 22:29:45

Like a few scifi books I read where children's brains (not quite sure on this one, possibly they had birth defects and would not have survived long normally?) or paraplegics were used as intelligence cores on starships

The Brainship series by Anne McCaffrey which started with The Ship Who Sang is one of them. I read it back in Jr High or High School. Why bother developing AI when you can just use natural intelligence to do the job.

The human brain is actually quite good at handling information, despite what people may think about how "smart" computers are. It is actually quite natural to consider a sentient brain to run a starship, until you consider how much body-horror by way of Frankenstein comes in to play. That was one of the reasons why they used children who would have been trapped in their bodies for their entire lives for the process.

That would be a truly fanatic take for someone like the crazier Clanners to go with instead of Solhama. Have their brain transplanted in to Clan BATs, and go crazy (probably very literally considering what happened with EI...).

RifleMech · « **Reply #56 on:** 29 May 2020, 03:30:52 »

Quote from: Wolf72 on 28 May 2020, 14:43:05

would need to have people with dwarfism as pilots. Any other motive types beyond T.O.?

Or they wear the armor like a giant prom dress and their feet simply pitter patter along.

Depending on the time they were made/created "season" Daleks varied from climbing into armor and driving it to a full conversion cyborgs.

Wolf72 · « **Reply #57 on:** 29 May 2020, 06:29:57 »

Quote from: Charistoph on 29 May 2020, 02:54:45

The Brainship series by Anne McCaffrey which started with The Ship Who Sang is one of them. I read it back in Jr High or High School. Why bother developing AI when you can just use natural intelligence to do the job.

Thank you, that would definitely be them ... would have started on those after Dragonriders series would have been used up.

beachhead1985 · « **Reply #58 on:** 29 May 2020, 17:51:27 »

Quote from: Wolf72 on 29 May 2020, 06:29:57

Thank you, that would definitely be them ... would have started on those after Dragonriders series would have been used up.

It's a feature in one story per book of the "Fleet" And "BattleStation" anthologies as well. Possibly written by the same author, however...They team a brainship up with, usually; a normal human to make a "Brain and brawn" combo (har har, very droll). Cannot recall where they get the grey matter from.

Machine Spirits in Wh40K are modified human or animal brains as well.

For a more grounded employment of the severely disabled; you have the "Audios Patria" in Kratman's Carerraverse series. There they team up mentally handicapped volunteers which are taught simple repetitive tasks; like cleaning a helpless human body or loading a tank gun and disabled veteran soldiers with brain or spinal injuries or who are multiple amputees and provide leadership and direction. These are then committed (one way. Audios Patria *does* translate to "Farewell Fatherland") to fixed defensive positions, which they man until they die or are relieved.

Lovely series. I recommend it highly.

idea weenie · « **Reply #59 on:** 30 May 2020, 01:57:28 »

Quote from: glitterboy2098 on 27 May 2020, 06:08:46

Technically wouldn't the "automated mannequins of dubious moral value" produced on Dustball and mention in the old house Steiner guidebook count?

Too bad we can't combine this with Shadowrun skillwires, so if there is an ATAC (or human operator) running the base it can download the necessary programs as needed for the mannequins. Or even set it where you have a central 'storage' site of mannequins, that are sent out on an as-needed basis. Each of the sub-locations has an on-site storage for its mannequins that are sent to do work as needed, and when the mannequins report that they have suffered damage or need recharge/maintenance, they are placed in an outgoing storage site (and when the outgoing site has enough, the building reports back to a receiver that it needs mannequin pickup). The Skillwires would program them similar to ARTS systems, but using the mannequins rather than arms.

It would be expensive to set up, but the mannequins would be moved around as needed, and could provide almost 24/7 support for anywhere that is needed. You need more mechanics? Upload the basic program. More Astechs? Program. Nurses to handle basic cases? Medical programs. The system as a whole could even have an analysis program to identify and remove inefficiencies (i.e. if the storage site is on one side of the base, and the main places that use the mannequins are on the other side, it will bring up that inefficiency to a human controller to recommend the base get reorganized). The danger is when the system calculates that the humans are the inefficient part and decides to remove them.

Quote from: beachhead1985 on 28 May 2020, 20:35:48

it's not ideal, but after I logged off, I booted up HM:BA and I was able to make some "Battle Android Troopers" starting at 135kg. I think the weight of the pilot is included in that, but that would be subbed out with drone gear.

Can you put this on the fan designs section and link to it, so we can have fun getting ideas on how to use it?

I'm also getting an idea of a human-shaped bot, but the front of its shins is actually a set of treads. On building, clear, and road terrain it can move at a speed of 2 because it kneels down and uses its treads to move, but on other terrain it only gets a speed of 1 due to using its legs.

Similar to the robots from Short Circuit, but instead of being a fixed base with treads, it uses legs. When the bot crouches down from using legs to use treads, a support pole extends either from its hips or its ankles to avoid extra stress on the knee joints.

The reason for legs is that this way it can sit in a human chair, instead of needing to rip out the seat.

Similar to a Quadvee, but with only two limbs using treads, instead of all four.

RifleMech · « **Reply #60 on:** 30 May 2020, 10:42:14 »

Like Blastarr?

https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&url=http%3A%2F%2Fangelsinorder.blogspot.com%2F2013%2F&psig=AOvVaw2by2gY0TImcymW5sAsfxiN&ust=1590939611939000&source=images&cd=vfe&ved=0CAIQjRxqFwoTCNi9sbrz2-kCFQAAAAAdAAAAABAD

Wolf72 · « **Reply #61 on:** 30 May 2020, 10:48:42 »

I get some long winded error message for that link

RifleMech · « **Reply #62 on:** 30 May 2020, 11:22:57 »

Weird. It just worked for me.

https://charltonhero.files.wordpress.com/2014/10/dreadempire.jpg
Hope this one works better. He's in the middle.

Wolf72 · « **Reply #63 on:** 30 May 2020, 15:41:45 »

Quote from: RifleMech on 30 May 2020, 11:22:57

Weird. It just worked for me.

https://charltonhero.files.wordpress.com/2014/10/dreadempire.jpg
Hope this one works better. He's in the middle.

I use Firefox, might something there ... 2nd one works. Ah, yes those 'treads' could work out.

fyi I got

Quote

The previous page is sending you to http://angelsinorder.blogspot.com/2013/.

If you do not want to visit that page, you can return to the previous page.

which takes me to a fallen baseball players page.

RifleMech · « **Reply #64 on:** 30 May 2020, 17:29:18 »

Quote from: Wolf72 on 30 May 2020, 15:41:45

I use Firefox, might something there ... 2nd one works. Ah, yes those 'treads' could work out.

fyi I got
which takes me to a fallen baseball players page.

I'm glad you got it and that it'd work.

Yeah. I saw that. I had to scroll down a ways to find the picture.

Wolf72 · « **Reply #65 on:** 30 May 2020, 20:01:28 »

Quote from: RifleMech on 30 May 2020, 17:29:18

I'm glad you got it and that it'd work.

Yeah. I saw that. I had to scroll down a ways to find the picture.

that's quite a ways down ... didn't even make it that far for me! ... So it did work, just not as right up front as I was assuming.

Charistoph · « **Reply #66 on:** 30 May 2020, 22:41:49 »

Quote from: RifleMech on 30 May 2020, 11:22:57

Weird. It just worked for me.

https://charltonhero.files.wordpress.com/2014/10/dreadempire.jpg
Hope this one works better. He's in the middle.

I used to have that guy, I think, along with the winged one. Me and my brother would have them mix it up with all the 80's toys, including M.A.S.C., GI Joe, and Transformers.

Still, that could be an interesting way to do it. Currently a few groups are working on a tire that can turn in to a tread on demand. It wouldn't be that hard to lock the treads to have them operate as large foot.

RifleMech · « **Reply #67 on:** 31 May 2020, 14:25:58 »

Quote from: Wolf72 on 30 May 2020, 20:01:28

that's quite a ways down ... didn't even make it that far for me! ... So it did work, just not as right up front as I was assuming.

I didn't know it was that far down either. I found the picture with google. I scrolled down to see if it was there later. At least it worked.

Quote from: Charistoph on 30 May 2020, 22:41:49

I used to have that guy, I think, along with the winged one. Me and my brother would have them mix it up with all the 80's toys, including M.A.S.C., GI Joe, and Transformers.

Still, that could be an interesting way to do it. Currently a few groups are working on a tire that can turn in to a tread on demand. It wouldn't be that hard to lock the treads to have them operate as large foot.

I think I still do have that guy. I'd have to do some digging to be sure. I used to mix them up with GI Joe and Star Wars and other action figures. Sometimes Transformers but not too much.

Wheels that can turn into treads? Sounds complicated. I have seen track units that can replace wheels turning a wheeled vehicle into a tracked one. Love to be able to do that in BT. Having the treads lock and used as a foot is how I imagined Track Units when the first came out.

Charistoph · « **Reply #68 on:** 31 May 2020, 15:18:58 »

Quote from: RifleMech on 31 May 2020, 14:25:58

Wheels that can turn into treads? Sounds complicated. I have seen track units that can replace wheels turning a wheeled vehicle into a tracked one. Love to be able to do that in BT. Having the treads lock and used as a foot is how I imagined Track Units when the first came out.

Complicated is one way to put it. It can be a great idea to add options to Wheeled units.

DARPA is one of the groups doing it, and here is an example of it in use: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kpsjKZUQEbs.

Daryk · « **Reply #69 on:** 31 May 2020, 15:28:53 »

Cool video, thanks for sharing! :thumbsup:

idea weenie · « **Reply #70 on:** 01 June 2020, 00:52:34 »

Quote from: RifleMech on 30 May 2020, 11:22:57

https://charltonhero.files.wordpress.com/2014/10/dreadempire.jpg
Hope this one works better. He's in the middle.

For my idea, not really. Think of a hockey or Lacrosse set of shin guards, but replace the shin guards with a set of treads. The goal was to make a humanoid design that could fit where a human could, meaning legs and appropriate-sized feet

But if that Blastarr design would be better engineering-wise, go with that instead

beachhead1985 · « **Reply #71 on:** 02 June 2020, 16:29:56 »

Quote from: idea weenie on 30 May 2020, 01:57:28

Can you put this on the fan designs section and link to it, so we can have fun getting ideas on how to use it?

https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=69663.0

As requested.

RifleMech · « **Reply #72 on:** 03 June 2020, 14:53:36 »

Quote from: idea weenie on 01 June 2020, 00:52:34

For my idea, not really. Think of a hockey or Lacrosse set of shin guards, but replace the shin guards with a set of treads. The goal was to make a humanoid design that could fit where a human could, meaning legs and appropriate-sized feet

But if that Blastarr design would be better engineering-wise, go with that instead

Like the ones on this mech?

https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Diomede

idea weenie · « **Reply #73 on:** 04 June 2020, 12:12:54 »

Quote from: RifleMech on 03 June 2020, 14:53:36

Like the ones on this mech?

https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Diomede

Excellent find, that is perfect!

RifleMech · « **Reply #74 on:** 04 June 2020, 13:48:01 »

Quote from: idea weenie on 04 June 2020, 12:12:54

Excellent find, that is perfect!

:) Thanks :beer:

PuppyLikesLaserPointers · « **Reply #75 on:** 06 June 2020, 11:21:53 »

The most easy way to claim this is;

1. Ruled that your force have looted random secret Word of Blake/The Society science facility without significant loss of the installation(IMPORTANT).
2. Consider that you have the robot soldier with humanoid form and similar weights, and you have the full control of them.
3. Give them the Battle Armor that is tuned for those robot soldiers.
4. Let them 'wear' the Battle Armor, and you have the robotic BA team that follows you without any sense of fear.

RifleMech · « **Reply #76 on:** 06 June 2020, 22:53:12 »

Quote from: Charistoph on 31 May 2020, 15:18:58

Complicated is one way to put it. It can be a great idea to add options to Wheeled units.

DARPA is one of the groups doing it, and here is an example of it in use: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kpsjKZUQEbs.

Wow! Totally missed this. Very cool! :thumbsup: :thumbsup:Not as easy to use as Matracks but you don't have to get out to change them either. :beer:

Renard · « **Reply #77 on:** 24 June 2020, 12:30:58 »

In the Battletech world, you have these huge walking tanks with multi-ton computers, tons of shielding, and relatively primitive communications technologies.

That's because in some previous time period, disruption of electronics became so easy that it destroyed the advantages of high tech approaches to warfare. In particular, the use of electromagnetic pulse attacks could disable armies of drones. This was an even bigger threat to civilian life: an EMP that took out the local nuclear reactor or disabled a jumpship at a critical moment would be a horrific terrorist attack. AI is scary but the local powerplant being used as a bomb to extort money or make a political point is a more immediate worry.

This forced the development of tech that was robust to things like EMPs or hacking. Battletech computers aren't heavy because they are from the 1980s, they're heavy because of all the built-in redundancy and security to keep them from being knocked out.

So fielding an RCT where all the operators are safely in space sitting at workstations just isn't practical. The units on the ground can be easily disabled by fairly primitive means, the communication can be disrupted by fairly primitive means, and the dangers of your force being hacked and turned on itself are too high.