manouver scale rules

[Greatclub]

OK, I’m trying to make a strategic level to battletech. Here's my half-baked ramblings.

The average game of battletech involves 1-4 mapsheets. That’s not really enough room for manoeuvre warfare – for a light with a walk of ten or more, it’s basically nothing. So I’m trying to add another level without shifting systems to AlphaStrike or Battleforce, and to make lights more worthwhile.

Step one is to make a TO&E. Then separate the TO&E into elements. These can range in size from the full unit to individual mechs, For every two full element that consists of their factions basic unit of organization, IE, lance, level II, star, you also get a fog of war (FOW) marker.
FOW markers represent things that might be enemies but aren’t; false positives on sensors. They can be megafauna, civilian reporters in helicopters, farmers in agromechs who aren’t aware there is a war on, sensor techs who are enthusiastic or need more training, weird atmospheric phenomena, computer glitches, staff officers making bad assumptions, lunch on the screen, a jeep with a transmitter playing decoy, whatever. They have a speed threshold of 1, though they’ll probably want to move slower to hide the fact that they’re not units. The purpose of these markers it to make recon and light mechs valuable.

Next you determine the speed of your elements. Find the slowest unit in the element, then consult the speed threshold table.

walk/cruise   Speed threshold
1                   16
2                   8
3                   6
4                   5
5                   4
6                   3
7 -11           2
12+                   1

If every mech in the element can jump, add J2. If the slowest mech(s) in the element can jump and the next slowest is 2 walk faster, add J1.

Setup is on a battletech hex map. Each element is represented by a contact token, numbered and with identity recorded in secret. This is the manoeuvre map, eight kilometres to a side; each hex represents a half kilometre, one standard battletech map. 

Turn order is the same as battletech. Since nobody is close to another unit, most phases are empty. During the end phase, each element is given a move token. Then any element with with a number of move tokens equal to or greater than their speed threshold + terrain modifier (table below) may move to an adjacent hex. If two or more opposing contact tokens are in adjacent hexes, reveal their identities and if both are units set up a game of standard battletech with appropriate forces. Use of rolling maps is encouraged, with moving contact tokens.

If the hex an element is in contains terrain, increase its speed threshold to move out of the hex according to the table below. Mechs with J1 ignore one point of modifier, J2 ignores two points.

Concrete (City)            +4
Elevation Change   +2 per level
Light Woods           +1
Heavy Woods           +3
Rough                   +2


An element of mechs can choose to run. This lets them reduce their speed threshold to that of the matching move value. If they do so, they must accept a heat marker. Mechs that have a heat marker generate five heat every turn in their next combat, as their myomers and engines are saturated with heat. Combats where you don’t significantly fight don’t remove the token, and combat is the only way to lose it. This is to prevent everyone from running all the time, and does not count towards the external heat limit. OTOH, it makes over-sinked mechs like ShadowHawk and Banshee significantly better

Vees can’t use flank outside of tactical scale, as they don’t partake in myomer magic.

Artillary – need some rules for arty to prevent people from just clumping their entire unit into one death star. Suggestions?

[Atarlost]

I'm not sure that the run rules are that useful.  It's so punitive for most mechs that once you put them in lances it's just a trap.  You're probably better off not having it. 

Might add a J3 category for formations that are all IJJ mechs and VTOLs. 

I think the terrain adjustment should also be more complicated.  Make the modifiers per X tiles and add light woods to 2x heavy woods for the woods modifier.  A mapsheet that's 90% trees and 10% open should impair movement a lot more than one that's 10% trees and 90% open.  Also, unit type should matter.  Hovers wouldn't care about water (which should have an entry) but care more than any other unit type about woods.  Wheeled vehicles would be troubled less by cities (and might even have a negative modifier) than mechs, but care a lot more about elevation changes. 

For artillery, you should only be able to fire on the strategic level if you have satellite coverage or aerospace recon.  Otherwise you don't have a sufficiently localized target to aim at with BT typical battery sizes.  If you do have non-satellite spotters they'd force the battle onto the tactical map where the normal off-board artillery rules work just fine. 

When you can use artillery, how about using the cluster table?  Modify by negative gunnery, negatively by flight time, positively by the radius of effect, and positively by the number of guns in the battery.  For example a Sniper battery with 4 gunnery at 15 mapsheets would roll on the 80 column (or rather 40 twice) with no net modifier because the -4 from 4 gunnery cancels with the +4 for 4 guns and the -2 from 2 turns flight time cancels with the +2 for the Sniper template having a radius of 1.5 rounding to 2.  Break that up into 5 point clusters as usual and pick which unit each is assigned to randomly as you'd pick which unit in a BA formation takes each shot in normal play. 

[Greatclub]

The heat rules are supposed to be crippling. They're mostly there so things can run away. I also have vague ideas about coolant trunks and ammo haulers. I suppose you could do on-board repairs too, but since it's 5 minutes (30 turns) per circle of armor (Stratops, 183), I don't think it's terribly practical even at this scale.

On open hex would probably be somewhere between "Map set 5: open terrain 1-2" and "MapPack Grasslands: open terrain 2-3."

Light woods would be "MapPack Grasslands: Woodland" or "Map Set 3: scattered woods", and heavy woods would be time to pull out "map set 4: Heavy woods 1-2." (Those are a stone pain to fight on)

https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Mapsheet


This is half-baked at the moment, just wanted to float the basic concept to see if anyone thought it was worth building on.


Speaking o' which, I hereby release all rights to my musings contained in this thread. If CGL wants to use it, they can without attribution or payment. (Not that it matters, I doubt they'll ever look at this portion of the forums even with a release)

[Atarlost]

The heat rules are supposed to be crippling. They're mostly there so things can run away. I also have vague ideas about coolant trunks and ammo haulers. I suppose you could do on-board repairs too, but since it's 5 minutes (30 turns) per circle of armor (Stratops, 183), I don't think it's terribly practical even at this scale.

Things can't run away without a base speed advantage even with this rule if you use rolling mapsheets for battles as you suggested because they have to disengage from enemies that can freely use their run/flank speed before they can leave the battle.  And it doesn't match the rest of the rules.  Any mech that isn't at 11 heatsinks with two engine hits or similarly down to a single point of heat dissipation can't overheat by running no matter how long it runs, and nothing except maybe fuel consumption prevents vehicles from sustaining flank speed.  Indeed, you're implicitly assuming that the base speed for mechs is their run speed in the terrain modifiers table since you're docking them movement in cities based on skidding mechanics that only apply to running movement. 

If you're using a strain justification for limiting running on the strategic map rather than assuming everything uses run/flank where doing so doesn't impose PSRs heat isn't the way to handle this, MASC style actuator failure chances or a prohibition on consecutive running turns is.

On open hex would probably be somewhere between "Map set 5: open terrain 1-2" and "MapPack Grasslands: open terrain 2-3."

Light woods would be "MapPack Grasslands: Woodland" or "Map Set 3: scattered woods", and heavy woods would be time to pull out "map set 4: Heavy woods 1-2." (Those are a stone pain to fight on)

Ah, I read it as looking at the mapsheet and seeing which terrain types it contained, which seemed very much a late night first draft placeholder kind of rule.  If it's going the other direction by map packs it makes more sense. 

I still hold with different unit types having different tables.  I don't know if those woods sheets are impassable to hovers, but they're certainly less friendly to them than they are to tracked vehicles or mechs. 

Speaking o' which, I hereby release all rights to my musings contained in this thread. If CGL wants to use it, they can without attribution or payment. (Not that it matters, I doubt they'll ever look at this portion of the forums even with a release)

I don't think anyone involved in content creation is even allowed down here. 

[Greatclub]

Things can't run away without a base speed advantage even with this rule if you use rolling mapsheets for battles as you suggested because they have to disengage from enemies that can freely use their run/flank speed before they can leave the battle.

Yeah, I'm going to have to think about that.

And it doesn't match the rest of the rules.  Any mech that isn't at 11 heatsinks with two engine hits or similarly down to a single point of heat dissipation can't overheat by running no matter how long it runs, and nothing except maybe fuel consumption prevents vehicles from sustaining flank speed.

The average battletech game is a minute or three. This has them running for tens of minutes at a time. 

Besides, I don't care that it doesn't match the rest rules. This might just be adding another layer of battletech instead of going full alphastrike/battleforce, but the point is play experience, not consistency. Finally, it matches the fiction, at least early on, where people were afraid of movement heat.

Indeed, you're implicitly assuming that the base speed for mechs is their run speed in the terrain modifiers table since you're docking them movement in cities based on skidding mechanics that only apply to running movement. 

and the number of turns they have to make to get around buildings, plus I assume they're trying to not step on cars and civilians, and avoid power lines when they're not actively fighting. 

And most importantly, checking for ambushes.

If you're using a strain justification for limiting running on the strategic map rather than assuming everything uses run/flank where doing so doesn't impose PSRs heat isn't the way to handle this, MASC style actuator failure chances or a prohibition on consecutive running turns is.

Definitely an option, although one even more crippling than mine.

Ah, I read it as looking at the mapsheet and seeing which terrain types it contained, which seemed very much a late night first draft placeholder kind of rule.  If it's going the other direction by map packs it makes more sense. 

I'm not sure what you mean "by map packs." My plan was to see what was in a given hex and pull or roll a map randomly from an appropriate pile.

I still hold with different unit types having different tables.  I don't know if those woods sheets are impassable to hovers, but they're certainly less friendly to them than they are to tracked vehicles or mechs. 

One more thing to keep track of; KISS. Although keeping wheeled or hovers out of heavy woods does make sense.

I don't think anyone involved in content creation is even allowed down here.

Pretty sure they aren't, but I decided to tack it on anyway.

[Atarlost]

Finally, it matches the fiction, at least early on, where people were afraid of movement heat.and the number of turns they have to make to get around buildings, plus I assume they're trying to not step on cars and civilians, and avoid power lines when they're not actively fighting. 

And most importantly, checking for ambushes. Definitely an option, although one even more crippling than mine.

Moving around buildings shouldn't really enter into it.  All cities off Terra should be planned cities and planned cities have roads laid out for ease of traversal.  Cars and pedestrians wouldn't matter either.  If you care about not stepping on cars and the city isn't locked down or evacuated you can't traverse it at all and if you either don't care or it's been locked down or evacuated there's nothing to step on except possibly in parking lots if in the former case.  Checking for ambushes is optional and usually only applies to the attacker.  The defender can know that a city is safe if he attacker hasn't reached it yet or if it's not been fully evacuated by tuning into the police band and not hearing them screaming about hostile mechs. 

If you do want to assume ambushes are an onmipresent concern no force not containing infantry can enter a city not already occupied by friendly infantry and any force with infantry must move as if its infantry are on foot to do so.  There's no way to prevent ambushes by infantry SRM teams in or on top of buildings other than to apply neutron bombs or chemical weapons liberally; shell it until it's not only no longer a city, but no longer counts as rubble; or have infantry sweep through all buildings along your route of march.  I presume those are weeds you don't want to get into. 

[Greatclub]

Moving around buildings shouldn't really enter into it.  All cities off Terra should be planned cities and planned cities have roads laid out for ease of traversal.  Cars and pedestrians wouldn't matter either.  If you care about not stepping on cars and the city isn't locked down or evacuated you can't traverse it at all and if you either don't care or it's been locked down or evacuated there's nothing to step on except possibly in parking lots if in the former case.  Checking for ambushes is optional and usually only applies to the attacker.  The defender can know that a city is safe if he attacker hasn't reached it yet or if it's not been fully evacuated by tuning into the police band and not hearing them screaming about hostile mechs. 

If you do want to assume ambushes are an onmipresent concern no force not containing infantry can enter a city not already occupied by friendly infantry and any force with infantry must move as if its infantry are on foot to do so.  There's no way to prevent ambushes by infantry SRM teams in or on top of buildings other than to apply neutron bombs or chemical weapons liberally; shell it until it's not only no longer a city, but no longer counts as rubble; or have infantry sweep through all buildings along your route of march.  I presume those are weeds you don't want to get into.

You've got way more faith in humanity's ability to make a rational plan and follow it long-term than I do; I'd expect a lot of stupid layouts, even when not moving around terrain.

Finally, given the succession wars (250 yrs) and the age of war (150 yrs?) during growth, expecting layouts designed to ease movement might be a bad assumption.

But yeah, +4 is probably way too high. +2 maybe. I'm hesitant to reduce it to +1, due to how I think It'd play out.

[massey]

Honestly the system looks too complex.  I started skimming and when I got to the end, I was kinda lost.  It doesn't look intuitive to me.  I've read it like 3 times and I still don't understand what "speed threshold" is supposed to do or why people are getting tons of heat.  Maybe it's just me.

I think maneuver rules need to be something people would actually use.  For that you need a campaign oriented game.  Otherwise slow units are just going to clump up, and run for the closest terrain that is beneficial to them.  You basically need the maneuver portion to be a game in and of itself, and I don't see that here.

[Greatclub]

it's literally a measure of how may turns a mech takes to walk across a standard 16*17 map sheet, rounded so different speeds have nice steps.

each battletech turn, lances not engaged get to increment up until they reach that threshold, then move to a new hex/mapsheet.

as for clumping, yes, that is a problem in the games me and a friend mocked out. Hopefully artilarry would solve it, but that's something I need to playtest ideas on.

[massey]

I'd suggest simply using a normal Battletech map, where each hex represents a standard Battletech map.  It's just one level of scale higher up.

So a clear hex is a mapsheet that is mostly clear, even if it has a few obstacles in it (such as the standard Battletech map that comes in every box set).  A light woods hex would have lots of woods.  A heavy woods hex is almost entirely wooded.  A water hex has several large lakes on it, even if it's not entirely water.  A hex with hills would have mountains.  Stuff like that.  Then you just abstract up to a longer turn length on the bigger map.

So one turn on the "big map" might be two minutes long (12 normal Battletech turns).  That's about the average length of a battle.  If we assume that a Battletech mapsheet is 16 hexes long (they're 15 x 17 as I recall), then at a run a unit of mechs could move a little faster on the big map than their walking speed.  In other words, a lance of 4/6 mechs could run 6 hexes times 12 turns = 72 Battletech hexes.  On a big map, that's (72 hexes / 16 hexes per map) 4.5 hexes on the big map (or 4.5 standard mapsheets).  To save calculation, let's just say they can move at their normal walking speed and any difference is taken care of by moving around obstacles too small to be noticed.

So Bob positions his lance of Jenners (7/11/5 movement) on one side of the big map.  Dave positions his unit of Thunderbolts on the other side.  Bob has 7 movement to spend while Dave only has 4.  To engage in combat, one side has to end their turn adjacent or on the other side's hex (no stacking limits here).  Then you just pull out some mapsheets that match the terrain hex (and maybe the surrounding hexes) and go to town with a normal Battletech game.  Units with high movement are generally going to have the choice to engage or avoid as they wish.  But that's why you take fast units.

Each side should probably have some kind of scoring conditions as well.  Something campaign-related that would turn up in later Battletech games, and if you ignore it you are penalized.  Or if you succeed with it you get a bonus.  For instance, off board you could have certain strategic assets -- Ammo Trucks, Coolant Trucks, MASH Units, and Artillery.  Each has a certain benefit for your side.  If you've got available Ammo Trucks, then you can refill two ammo bins per mech once you leave the big map.  If you've got a MASH unit, you can heal up to two pilot hits per mechwarrior.  If you've got Coolant Trucks, then in your first battle mechs count as having "brand new coolant" which gives them an extra 5 heat sinks or something.  And the Artillery asset lets you bombard a hex on the big map (potentially doing a mega buttload of damage even if it's inaccurate -- it is 12 turns of artillery fire after all).  However, if I can move one of my units off your side of the map completely uncontested, then I get to take out one or more of your strategic assets.  This goes a long way to discourage cramming everything onto one hex and waiting.

[Greatclub]

I'd suggest simply using a normal Battletech map, where each hex represents a standard Battletech map.  It's just one level of scale higher up.

So a clear hex is a mapsheet that is mostly clear, even if it has a few obstacles in it (such as the standard Battletech map that comes in every box set).  A light woods hex would have lots of woods.  A heavy woods hex is almost entirely wooded.  A water hex has several large lakes on it, even if it's not entirely water.  A hex with hills would have mountains.  Stuff like that.

That's literally what I've been doing. (frick, I'm bad at explaining)

Then you just abstract up to a longer turn length on the bigger map.

So one turn on the "big map" might be two minutes long (12 normal Battletech turns).  That's about the average length of a battle.  If we assume that a Battletech mapsheet is 16 hexes long (they're 15 x 17 as I recall), then at a run a unit of mechs could move a little faster on the big map than their walking speed.  In other words, a lance of 4/6 mechs could run 6 hexes times 12 turns = 72 Battletech hexes.  On a big map, that's (72 hexes / 16 hexes per map) 4.5 hexes on the big map (or 4.5 standard mapsheets).  To save calculation, let's just say they can move at their normal walking speed and any difference is taken care of by moving around obstacles too small to be noticed.

So Bob positions his lance of Jenners (7/11/5 movement) on one side of the big map.  Dave positions his unit of Thunderbolts on the other side.  Bob has 7 movement to spend while Bob only has 4.  To engage in combat, one side has to end their turn adjacent or onto the other side's hex (no stacking limits here).  Then you just pull out some mapsheets that match the terrain hex and go to town with a normal Battletech game.  Units with high movement are generally going to have the choice to engage or avoid as they wish.  But that's why you take fast units.

I was trying to avoid sudden you-go-I-go bursts in favor of something more gradual. The end result would be 'bout the same, but allows a little more planning and reaction. Also reinforcements halfway through a battle

Each side should probably have some kind of scoring conditions as well.  Something campaign-related that would turn up in later Battletech games, and if you ignore it you are penalized.  Or if you succeed with it you get a bonus.  For instance, off board you could have certain strategic assets -- Ammo Trucks, Coolant Trucks, MASH Units, and Artillery.  Each has a certain benefit for your side.  If you've got available Ammo Trucks, then you can refill two ammo bins per mech once you leave the big map.  If you've got a MASH unit, you can heal up to two pilot hits per mechwarrior.  If you've got Coolant Trucks, then in your first battle mechs count as having "brand new coolant" which gives them an extra 5 heat sinks or something.  And the Artillery asset lets you bombard a hex on the big map (potentially doing a mega buttload of damage even if it's inaccurate -- it is 12 turns of artillery fire after all).  However, if I can move one of my units off your side of the map completely uncontested, then I get to take out one or more of your strategic assets.  This goes a long way to discourage cramming everything onto one hex and waiting.

...had not considered moving on and off board, but it could work.