What is a Zombie Mech?

[Imperium]

I have tried to design some, including Energy Boats, just to be told those are not "really" Zombie Mechs. So what makes a Mech a Zombie exactly?

[kindalas]

I have tried to design some, including Energy Boats, just to be told those are not "really" Zombie Mechs. So what makes a Mech a Zombie exactly?

At the simplest level a Zombie mech is a SFE mech with max armor.

But at a more complex level it is a mech with gear placed in a way that optimizes it's survive-ability on the battlefield.

That means the mech has CASE and a bunch of extra things in the torsos to absorb critical hits.

It also means that the weapons are spread over the mech so that a lost torso doesn't disarm the mech. (I'm looking at the Griffin.)

[Crimson Dawn]

As an example I would go with the classic grasshopper.  It has great armor for its time, it only has one ton of ammo (and many people would tell you to drop it at the start of combat since that LRM 5 may not really be needed), it has some decent crit packing due to all the heat sinks, and it has a center torso large laser.

If you dump the ammo the grasshopper has lots of armor but can survive losing both arms and both side torsos and can still blast you with that large laser.  To kill it you must blow off the head, the legs, or the center torso otherwise it can keep coming and try to kill you.

[garhkal]

It has lots of

BBBRRRRRRRRAAAIIIIIIIIIIIINNNNNNNNNNNNSSSSSSSSSSSS!!!! ;) ;)

But yea, usually a zombie mech is one with max (or close to it) armor, a SFE, so loss of a side torso does not eliminate its engine, and at least SOME weaponry in the head and center torso, so once both outer torsos are stripped off, it can still shoot something.

[PuppyLikesLaserPointers]

The best one I have seen is Archangel. 100 tons allows it to use compact engine without spend much weight, making it one of the most infamous zombie mech as well as keep impressive firepower. It can fight as long as it have head, center torso, and two legs.

[Hptm. Streiger]

The Archangel - lacks what a real Zombi should have - and that the ability to soak up potential damage - a shot that does not hit counts more than a shot that hit but deal less damage.

Strictly spoken one of the thoughest Mechs I ever have the non-pleasure to face was the Stooping Hawk and the Kingfisher - both have the mobility to not get hit and the SFE and max armor proofed to be enough.

For into IS the price for the best Zombi its clearly the Banshee 3M, second to the Wolverine 6M

However, the compact gyro of the Archangel is useful.

[PuppyLikesLaserPointers]

The Archangel - lacks what a real Zombi should have - and that the ability to soak up potential damage - a shot that does not hit counts more than a shot that hit but deal less damage.

Strictly spoken one of the thoughest Mechs I ever have the non-pleasure to face was the Stooping Hawk and the Kingfisher - both have the mobility to not get hit and the SFE and max armor proofed to be enough.

For into IS the price for the best Zombi its clearly the Banshee 3M, second to the Wolverine 6M

However, the compact gyro of the Archangel is useful.

Archangel Invictus have;

Left and Right Torso: 32 armor(front) and 21 internal each
Left and Right Arm: 34 armor and 17 internal each

The sum of all of them are (32+21+34+17)x2=206 points. I don't think that it is so small for damage soaking. It is around 2/3 of 19 tons of armor points. Even if it lose all of them, it still have Head, Center Torso, and both Legs, with C3I, Plasma Rifle, ECM, and a Jump Jet, means it is still a threat.

I think that it can have more optimized parts location, though, but the combine of compact engine and compact Gyro, with standard speed makes it very resilient against concentrated fire.

Sure, if a Head, Center Torso, or either Leg is broken, the mech is neutralized. But all the mechs are same. Perhaps quad sustain one broken Leg but it is just an inferior cousin of biped and tripod, since Endo Steel and XL engine was released.

[dgorsman]

Consider the Gotterdammerung.  Almost everything is mounted down the centerline.  It can be missing both arms and both side torsos, and not only walk away but still be a threat.

[DOC_Agren]

3025  Grasshopper (unless in my hand, then say hello to golden BB shots everytime) or Thunderbolt just keep on coming

[PuppyLikesLaserPointers]

Consider the Gotterdammerung.  Almost everything is mounted down the centerline.  It can be missing both arms and both side torsos, and not only walk away but still be a threat.

And it will fry out the warrior, as well as have the threat of ammo explosion on head that destroys it outright for it doesn't protected by CASE. I wonder why it have such an odd design.

[Hptm. Streiger]

And it will fry out the warrior, as well as have the threat of ammo explosion on head that destroys it outright for it doesn't protected by CASE. I wonder why it have such an odd design.

Well, do you think that a 100t Mech with 4 medium lasers, that could be put out of  commission by a single GR or CERPPC is so much better.
If you think so play a round MegaMek with 2 of your Zombis against a single modernized  MAD II ?

[PuppyLikesLaserPointers]

Well, do you think that a 100t Mech with 4 medium lasers, that could be put out of  commission by a single GR or CERPPC is so much better.
If you think so play a round MegaMek with 2 of your Zombis against a single modernized  MAD II ?

Perhaps you quoted the wrong thread?

[PuppyLikesLaserPointers]

By the way, after check out the rules, it seems that head is not counted for transfer damage. So ammo explosion on the head doesn't destroy the whole mech outright. Is it correct?

[UnLimiTeD]

Yes. The Götterdämmerung is the rare zombie that doesn't die if you lob off the head.
Though, admittedly, the loss of sensors makes it hard to hit anything for the pilot.
The problems with heat dissipation have already been mentioned, and there's also the issue of floating crits - it is more fragile than it looks. Admittedly, it looks extremely durable.
To me, a zombie always a design that can lose parts and keep going. Having 30 tons of hardened armour or being very hard to hit does not make one a zombie.

[ckosacranoid]

Any mech the damn necromancer raise from the battlefield that where mission kills.

[Cannonshop]

I have tried to design some, including Energy Boats, just to be told those are not "really" Zombie Mechs. So what makes a Mech a Zombie exactly?

Typical 'zombie' traits:

1. the ability to soak losing significant portions of the body without losing effectiveness.
2. sufficient heat sinkage to absorb at least two engine hits without degrading performance.

If you have a 'mech that makes the other player stare at you across the table asking "How in the hell is that thing still up? and why is it killing my troops still?" then you have a zombie.

IOW it's a 'mech designed to absorb fire.  sponge the incoming up and keep going.

Zombies generally don't locate anything in the arms except secondaries and hand actuators, they tend to have very good armor.  For the role, you pretty much HAVE to have a Standard engine (so you can lose both side torsoes without going down).  They will have crit-soakers in the centerline, whether weapons, or heat-sinks, so that when (not if) you get a center torso crit, that crit goes to something that doesn't explode and kill you.

likewise for something mounted in the empty 'roll again' slot in the head.  something NON explosive.

armor on a zombie should be maxed for the tonnage.

(again, the idea is to absorb incoming fire while remaining mobile and/or combat effective).

[UnLimiTeD]

Couldn't describe it better.

Maybe of note, conforming to the common zombie trope, you don't necessarily need maximum armour, or no weapons in the arms. It is the efficient way to go, but a few designs may also have a weapon too many for their common heat sinkage, so when they lose a side, they end up barely losing firepower.

[Charistoph]

Any mech the damn necromancer raise from the battlefield that where mission kills.

Wouldn't that be a "mechromancer"?  To be fair, techs made their names in the 3rd SSW for doing just that.

[I am Belch II]

A mech that has no kill able crits except in the center torso. Most if not all of the weapons can fire with no problems with heat. A mech that can keep on going and going and going with no problems.

[Jester006]

One of my favorite zombie mechs is the Grand Titan 13M.

100 tonner near max armor with TSM, jump jets, a heavy duty gyro.  To top it all off, every actuator, its engine, gyro and cockpit are all armored.

[Empyrus]

My criteria for zombie:
-Max or near (95%+) max armor.
-Standard or compact fusion engine.
-Sufficiently critical packed that critical hits don't directly transfer to center torso. This is where the Götterdämmerung fails extremely badly, first crits to side torsos destroy life support and rest go to CT straight.
-Explosive ammo or components should be kept to minimum or strongly mitigated (CASE II, or maybe reinforced chassis). Having little ammo for a secondary/tertiary weapon quite passable, the classic Grasshopper is a good example, one can always dump ammo after all.

Other considerations:
-Should have sufficient firepower one can't simply ignore it. The Great Turtle, for example, has such laughable firepower it can be mostly bypassed and dealt after more important enemies are defeated.
-Most specialty armors are make zombies even tougher, though some like Reflective have bad drawbacks.
-Torso cockpit is useful but should be armored for maximum utility, otherwise a TAC can kill one right away (i don't count floating criticals as they're not standard rule and i never play with them).
-Reinforced structure is a plus, and can arguably make Clan XL or light engines suitable for zombies. The Osteon comes to mind.

[Col Toda]

Armored compact Engine , Armored  heavy gyro ,  reinforced internal structure, hardened or Ferro Laminar armor are potential elements in a zombie mech .

Made a 35 ton Solaris VII mech called the cockroach.  8/12/10 w partial wing . Reinforced IS and ferro Laminar Armor which means in theory can take a gauss rifle shot  to the head and live .

The Great Turtle mech from Solaris VII hardened armor 100 ton quad armed  with X-PULSE lasers Is I think is among the defining examples.

Most common example is the 8Q Awesome. 

[grimlock1]

Other considerations:
-Should have sufficient firepower one can't simply ignore it. The Great Turtle, for example, has such laughable firepower it can be mostly bypassed and dealt after more important enemies are defeated.
-Most specialty armors are make zombies even tougher, though some like Reflective have bad drawbacks.
-Torso cockpit is useful but should be armored for maximum utility, otherwise a TAC can kill one right away (i don't count floating criticals as they're not standard rule and i never play with them).
-Reinforced structure is a plus, and can arguably make Clan XL or light engines suitable for zombies. The Osteon comes to mind.

If you go torso cockpit + Hardened armor, they think long and hard about AES in the legs, quad/tripod, high piloting skill, VRPP, or EI/VDNI.  Because PSRs will happen and would be embarrassing to have a nearly pristine mech laying face-down in the mud with a pilot who died from fall damage.

Although if I remember correctly, PSRs are triggered based damage dealt, not damage received.    So an an AC/20 hit on a Stalker II -9A wouldn't trigger a PSR, so it's not as bad as it could be but still not great. A zombie is designed to invite hits so if you do your job right, it will get hit often, and those +3 on the PSRs will happen. 

[PuppyLikesLaserPointers]

The problem of torso cockpit - aside cannot eject - is it is very susceptible to heat. Only a single point of heat cause one hit to the pilot for a turn. It seems very critical problem for a supposed zombie mech I think.

[grimlock1]

The problem of torso cockpit - aside cannot eject - is it is very susceptible to heat. Only a single point of heat cause one hit to the pilot for a turn. It seems very critical problem for a supposed zombie mech I think.

I think you have that wrong.  As per TO pg 301, so long as there is no damage to the Life Support crits, then there is no added danger or damage from heat. Even then, it's only when the mech is overheated that the pilot takes heat damage.  A mech that is built around a 2-1-2 salvo pattern is going to suffer.

[PuppyLikesLaserPointers]

I think you have that wrong.  As per TO pg 301, so long as there is no damage to the Life Support crits, then there is no added danger or damage from heat. Even then, it's only when the mech is overheated that the pilot takes heat damage.  A mech that is built around a 2-1-2 salvo pattern is going to suffer.

Oh, my bad. I just read it that it damages 1 damage every time it overheats. Still, only a single point of remained heat automatically cause 1 damage seems too severe for a zombie mech, for it is expected to take heavy fire and there is no proof that life support system is keep survives.

[grimlock1]

Oh, my bad. I just read it that it damages 1 damage every time it overheats. Still, only a single point of remained heat automatically cause 1 damage seems too severe for a zombie mech, for it is expected to take heavy fire and there is no proof that life support system is keep survives.

Oh, it's certainly not a good state of affairs, but not quite as dire as you initially thought.

[Atarlost]

The tendency to fall over and not be able to get back up strikes me as more dire.  Yes, crawling zombies are a thing, but they're a slow, inevitable menace to people who are trapped, not a threat to people who can walk and especially not to people who can walk and have guns.