Gigantic engines!!

[Major Headcase]

I have a question?
Have there ever been XL or XXL engines introduced that go above 400 rating? I dont have all the tech books or experimental books and I didn't see anything on Sarna, but that could be my lack of search skills...
I was thinking that since the XL versions of the top engines weigh so much less, maybe some testing was done making XL Fusion engines in sizes previously impossible for a mech to carry around? I imagined a 500 XL that weighs the same as the 400 standard, or however the power to weight curve would work out...
I thought about this a long time ago but recently started wondering more seriously if it's been done in the Btech sources?

[Sartris]

TO 307 / TO(AUE) 119

basically you can take them up to a 500 rating

a 500 rated ICE engine weighs 925 tons   ;D

[Dmon]

And a 500 XXL will likely cost more than the GDP of several planets.

[Sartris]

More than a machine gun less than a mobile hpg

[Major Headcase]

TO 307 / TO(AUE) 119

basically you can take them up to a 500 rating

a 500 rated ICE engine weighs 925 tons   ;D

I dont know those references? Please elaborate?  :)

[Sartris]

i'm just kind of making shit up as we go

TO - Tactical Operations (in pre-split editions)
TO(AUE) - Tactical Operations: Advanced Units and Equipment (basically the back half of TO that's now its own book)

[dgorsman]

i'm just kind of making shit up as we go

TO - Tactical Operations (in pre-split editions)
TO(AUE) - Tactical Operations: Advanced Units and Equipment (basically the back half of TO that's now its own book)

I propose that rather wordy second book be abbreviated as TOE, or TacOps2.

[Sartris]

TO1 and TO2 or TOR and TOE seem like better choices, yeah

[Brakiel]

I propose that rather wordy second book be abbreviated as TOE, or TacOps2.

Sounds like a movie sequel.

TacOps2: More Tactical

2Tactical2Operate

TacOps2: Kearny-Fuchida Boogaloo

[Sartris]

TacOps: The Great Schism of 2020

[Daryk]

I'm just here for the TacOps puns...  8)

[Empyrus]

Answering the actual question, the BattleMaster has a variant (-6X) that sports a large (XXL) engine, with rating of 425 or so for 5/8 movement. It is not great.
The engine weights 26.5 tons, contrast to 400-XXL that weights only 17.5.

EDIT I think this is the sole large-engined 'Mech, but not 100% sure.

[Wolf72]

Also trying to get a vehicle to utilize those engines is a bit difficult too.

I ran some basic numbers for all the Super heavy Hovercraft: was able to get a 405 rated XXL fusion engine on a 91 ton hover veh ... at 10 tons over the 20% marker leaving it with 29.5 tons for armor/weapons/equipment.  It can move 8/12.

You lose design efficiency with super heavies, you lose even more with large engines.  Fun and kewl outweigh all talks of efficacy though. (I think I used that word relatively correctly, no school>no students>no brain)

[Paul]

Large engine rules are basically wasted ink.

[Sartris]

I’m now wanting to see the core books with all the text redacted that Paul wants to get rid of

[Daryk]

Large engine rules are basically wasted ink.

I treasure everything we agree on for its rarity...  ^-^

[Psycho]

EDIT I think this is the sole large-engined 'Mech, but not 100% sure.

The horrible Sasquatch "upgrade" does as well... to end up at 4/6 due to the large shield.

[Paul]

I’m now wanting to see the core books with all the text redacted that Paul wants to get rid of

You can pretty much see it now.
It'd likely just be my version of Mech Manual. But shorter. Keith and the others did an amazing job with it though, it'd be hard to improve upon it.
I'd cut back on weapon systems. Remove some extraneous rules. Do some changes that'd land this post in fan rules.

And probably nothing else. Because nothing else is core, to me. I've greatly enjoyed making some of the more complex 'Mechs in the game, but they're also borderline unplayable for the vast majority of people. It's all too esoteric. I used to see that as an accomplishment. But not anymore.

I treasure everything we agree on for its rarity...  ^-^

It pleases me that we succeed not only in co-existing, but in actually enjoying when we game together.


You know, despite how wrong you are. ;)

[Empyrus]

The horrible Sasquatch "upgrade" does as well... to end up at 4/6 due to the large shield.

Since i don't recognize the name, i'm gonna assume that's a Solaris 'Mech.

[Sartris]

correct.

there's also a 5/8/8 one with a 425 XXL. its armament sucks though - 2 MXPL, LPL, rear-mounted SL

[Sartris]

You can pretty much see it now.
It'd likely just be my version of Mech Manual. But shorter. Keith and the others did an amazing job with it though, it'd be hard to improve upon it.
I'd cut back on weapon systems. Remove some extraneous rules. Do some changes that'd land this post in fan rules.

what, you don't want eight plus medium lasers in one game? (the first time it happened to me in a 3145 campaign i swore never again)

[LastChanceCav]

what, you don't want eight plus medium lasers in one game? (the first time it happened to me in a 3145 campaign i swore never again)

8 medium lasers has solved more problems since the invention of the medium laser than all politics combined.

Cheers,
LCC

[Sartris]

No I mean eight types of medium lasers.

[Daryk]

That's just the non-pulse versions, right?  ???

[LastChanceCav]

No I mean eight types of medium lasers.

That is excessive, especially since all you need is the original.

Cheers,
LCC

[SteveRestless]

what, you don't want eight plus medium lasers in one game? (the first time it happened to me in a 3145 campaign i swore never again)

Hi, Yeah, I'm the guy who wants that.

The base stats are on the sheet, which means that you just have to know what the keywords mean.

"Medium" Okay, the laser is mid ranged, and probably strikes a good balance between heat and damage. "Pulse" Okay, that means its got a bonus to hit. "Variable Pulse" Okay, that means that it's more effective in close, and has a bonus to hit. "ER" Oh, it's got better range than the standard edition.

So it's really not that you have to memorize 8 medium laser types and 8 large laser types and 8 small laser types, you just have to know what keywords mean.  Actually, it'd be pretty cool if there were some playing-card sized "cheat-sheets" available, telling you what different "ER" "Reengineered" "Pulse" "X-Pulse" "ER Pulse" "Armor Piercing" "Tandem-Charge" "Reactive" "Ferrolamellor" keywords signified for different mech attrributes. I feel like that'd be handy if 8 types of laser is a problem for players.

[dgorsman]

Hi, Yeah, I'm the guy who wants that.

So it's really not that you have to memorize 8 medium laser types and 8 large laser types and 8 small laser types, you just have to know what keywords mean.  Actually, it'd be pretty cool if there were some playing-card sized "cheat-sheets" available, telling you what different "ER" "Reengineered" "Pulse" "X-Pulse" "ER Pulse" "Armor Piercing" "Tandem-Charge" "Reactive" "Ferrolamellor" keywords signified for different mech attrributes. I feel like that'd be handy if 8 types of laser is a problem for players.

So, take the boxed descriptions from TechManual and TacOps, and put them on separate flip cards?

[SteveRestless]

Less seperate flip cards, and more a handy, small reference card that you can look up "and what exactly does a Re-Engineered Laser do?" on when someone shoots one at you. Since that's probably the least intuitive laser type.  Extended Range is pretty much what it says on the tin, and once you know what "Pulse" means, you can intuit that "X Pulse" "ER Pulse" and "Variable Speed Pulse" are probably related concepts. "Armor Piercing" is similarly straightforward, but "Tandem Charge" is a little less clear.

You could also do them as seperate cards, I suppose, and have only the relevant cards on the table at a time.

[Sartris]

At a certain point the law of diminishing returns makes most of it superfluous and the nuance becomes more cumbersome than interesting. I’m bored with the “just look at the stats on the sheet” argument - every time you have to reference something it slows the game down. BattleTech is not a game that can afford many more slowdowns beyond the procedures built into the rules already. I would venture a not insignificant portion of vets don’t even have the most essential static procedures (hit locations and cluster hits) memorized. Now you have to keep the giant pile of variants saddled with specialized functions and rules that are less and less segregated from each other. Bad. Overbalancing new weapons is a plague. Much of this could have been avoided by just by making better gear over time.

I don’t believe 3145 TL as is can also be mainstream. That crowded of a field requires scaffolded products that present concepts in a tiered system. The majority of people who pick up the game just won’t get that deep into the system. Most players also lack experienced shepherding and curating by someone who has literally spent decades absorbing the material

It’s not about representing a simulation of the universe. It’s about creating tight products people will buy. It should be pretty clear the back to basics approach to the line was the responsible choice.

If you are trying to push ilclan as the start point, it has to be playable out of the box. The pile of extant gear and mechs is going to drive off far than it attracts in that regard. The new fiction is super important to create lasting buy in but certain things simply must be deemphasized to make it more workable

[Sartris]

If you look at my sig links I’ve devised a set of reference cards for up through TW gear. There are already a lot - and you’d have to add many more for 3150 play. Each player would have a deck to flip through in addition to their record sheets.

I’ve played with them and It’s better than referencing the rulebook every turn but there is still a lot of flipping

[dgorsman]

One downside to a streamlined equipment set, is (almost) everyone wants what's there to be the best of everything, not the generic model.  So instead of 'just' a medium laser it has to be an improved heavy ER re-engineered pulse medium laser.  Aside from lack of variety (yes, I do agree somewhat with the simplicity arguments) it ends up as power creep.

[Sartris]

Better that than keep trying to find more and more elaborate ways to balance that end up putting the burden on the player to remember.

There should be power creep over time. I shouldn’t be incentivized at all to use gear that debuted in the 2400s if it’s 3140 besides poverty or insanity. The only reason they are effective weapons at all is because creating the armor and ordnance effectiveness matrix would be an even bigger nightmare

That’s why games seated in the context of the universe is important. Otherwise you’ve got BV

[Romulan_Warbird]

a flat "era bonus" could be an idea for the things which would be expected to scale, and explained via the ER Dual-Lens X-Pulse Super-Smedium Lite prefixes

[Sartris]

I mean I don’t disagree with Steve’s idea of prefixes serving as a conceptual signal. It should just do it consistently - for example I hate non factor-based range brackets like the large pulse... or the clan ER pulse only getting -1. If you had a system where all prefixes created consistent change in equipment behavior, I’d be far less annoyed

In terms of era interaction I’d rather have nothing than something as long as the eras flow together as they do. Extinction is more story than tech based anyway so doing any kind of scale is fraught

[General308]

And a 500 XXL will likely cost more than the GDP of several planets.

XXL Engine cost are well extreme to say the lest

[Sharpnel]

TO 307 / TO(AUE) 119

basically you can take them up to a 500 rating

a 500 rated ICE engine weighs 925 tons   ;D

and goes straight into a surface vessel of some kind or a very large train

[Sharpnel]

 :thumbsup:

Large engine rules are basically wasted ink.

[Sharpnel]

That is excessive, especially since all you need is the original.

Cheers,
LCC

True dat. Most efficient and effective weapon in the game.

[GRUD]

Back around '86-'89 or so (when I was only a "Young Fart"), I designed a large wet-water Naval ship.  I gave it TWO engines to move it around.   8)  While there MAY have been a Rule against it, I didn't see it.   :D  Plus, current ships have multiple engines, so I figured "Why not?", and went with it.  Unlike my old 'Mech, vehicle and odd Aerospace designs ("Odd" because I didn't make them very often), I'm not sure I still have the paper with the ship design.  :-\  NOT that it is "Legal" these days anyway, or that I'd ever even use it.

[Wrangler]

Not too be super side tracked, but won't a Superheavy BattleMech/OmniMech benefit from a XXL? 

[Ruger]

Not too be super side tracked, but won't a Superheavy BattleMech/OmniMech benefit from a XXL?

Yes, but the cost goes up astronomically. For instance, I took a BattleMaster-1G, made the engine into a XXL large engine to give it 5/8 movement, and only slightly upgraded the weapons and the heat sinks, and the cost the program I used (Mordel Blackknight's board) was already 180,000,000+.

For one 'Mech.

Ruger

[Empyrus]

Not too be super side tracked, but won't a Superheavy BattleMech/OmniMech benefit from a XXL?

More space and mass do make easier to add extra cooling due XXLs demand, but smart design in standard-mass 'Mechs allows working around that already.

[Sartris]

A 500xxl would allow a 125 ton superheavy to move 4/6

[Empyrus]

Even large XXLs are very inefficient. 400-rated XXL is good, but above that, it is better to design something that doesn't need 400+ rating.

[ActionButler]

At the risk of sounding like an ******, this seems like one of those things that is interesting on paper, but wouldn’t get used by enough normal BT players to be worth the effort and the ink.  I mean, we have an active thread about whether protomechs were worth the effort and they were this huge bombshell in the fiction that was going to bridge the gap between man and mech, they got their own chapter in a TRO, they were shiny and new, and we’re still sitting around wondering if they were worth it.  Would an edge-case engine type matter enough to get added to the rules?

[Hellraiser]

8 Medium Lasers?

I love this game but dear lord, the day I see that on the table is the day I quit.

I mean, really, there are TWO top end medium lasers.  The OG for the IS, the Pulse for the Clan. 

Everything else is fighting for Bronze.   ;)

[ANS Kamas P81]

I guess if you want to get pedantic there's actually 12 types of ML.  IS standard, IS ER, IS pulse, IS X-Pulse, IS VSPL, IS Reengineered, Clan ER, Clan Pulse, Clan ER-Pulse, Clan Heavy, Clan Improved Heavy, and Clan Chemical.  And the same goes for Large and Small lasers as well, so...definitely some bloat.

As for >400 engines, maybe some of the smaller ones for superheavies (135 ton Atlases for example) but really begging for XXLs.  Cost...meh, cost is even less useful than BV!

[Hellraiser]

Someone give me TRO3250 that introduces the "Omega-Supreme Medium Laser"

Range-15,  Damage-10,  -2 To Hit,  2 Tons,  Heat-7,  and it does that damage to every single armor type.

And then we can say "Done"


This can be introduced at the same time as the "Omega-Supreme Missile Launcher" and "Omega-Supreme Autocannon".
Both available in 4 sizes... 2-5-10-20 for simplicity of charts.

[Paul]

Some people get really upset when you suggest that.

Such people are, of course, comprehensively wrong.

[Sharpnel]

8 Medium Lasers?

I love this game but dear lord, the day I see that on the table is the day I quit.

I mean, really, there are TWO top end medium lasers.  The OG for the IS, the Pulse for the Clan. 

Everything else is fighting for Bronze.   ;)

You forgot Clan ER Medium lasers, which are very dangerous, as well.

[Daryk]

I think we might be wandering into fan rule territory...

[ActionButler]

Someone give me TRO3250 that introduces the "Omega-Supreme Medium Laser"

Range-15,  Damage-10,  -2 To Hit,  2 Tons,  Heat-7,  and it does that damage to every single armor type.

And then we can say "Done"


This can be introduced at the same time as the "Omega-Supreme Missile Launcher" and "Omega-Supreme Autocannon".
Both available in 4 sizes... 2-5-10-20 for simplicity of charts.

This is the correct answer.

[Wrangler]

but but do we get a Omega Supreme size Robot that transforms into a mega tank on train with interstellar "dropship" at the center?

[Hellraiser]

You forgot Clan ER Medium lasers, which are very dangerous, as well.

Oh I didn't forget them, I love them, I just love the other 2 more :)

[Hellraiser]

but but do we get a Omega Supreme size Robot that transforms into a mega tank on train with interstellar "dropship" at the center?

Well Obviously!  :thumbsup:

You've heard of quad vees?

He's the first Assault-LAM-Tank

[Wrangler]

Waitminute.....what powers/moves a mobile structure.....wouldn't a gigantic engine aka XXL ish like engine be used for that thing?

Well Obviously!  :thumbsup:

You've heard of quad vees?

He's the first Assault-LAM-Tank

I would think he was more superheavy Drop-LAM Tank to be honest. Or Omni... ;D

[Agathos]

VSP lasers? I prefer VSOP lasers, preferably manufactured on Terra near Cognac, France.

[Retry]

I mean I don’t disagree with Steve’s idea of prefixes serving as a conceptual signal. It should just do it consistently - for example I hate non factor-based range brackets like the large pulse... or the clan ER pulse only getting -1. If you had a system where all prefixes created consistent change in equipment behavior, I’d be far less annoyed

Yeah, that's honestly probably the biggest problem, not the prefixes per-sey but the un-intuitiveness of some of the weapons.

Take the IS LRMs and SRMs.  Fairly straightforward on the tabletop, the former is long ranged with a heft minimum, the latter is a short-ranged crit seeker.  What about Streaks?  Same thing, but you don't fire on a miss and you get everything on a hit.  What about the Enhanced LRM?  Same thing, but shorter minimums.  Oh, and now here come the Clans, how do theirs differ?  Oh, it's basically the same thing, but the LRM doesn't have a minimum for some reason.  Not too bad to keep track of at all.  So that's a good 5 or 6 unit weapon types.

But introduce the MRMs instead of those missile variants, and... Okay, so this is obviously an in-between for the two, but for some reason it has some weird range brackets?  3/8/13 or something?  And it also has an accuracy malus for some reason?  Learning just one more weapon type, that MRM, is more difficult and feels more "bulky" than learning several different LRM and SRM missile variants, just because it doesn't seem to follow a pattern very closely.

[Wolf72]

The first Omega post got me thinking "hey, Omega Supreme ... I remember when my friend got that for his birthday" ... still wasn't sure if the topic was pointing towards him.  My brain can be deceptively stubborn at times.

So I've got to add along with that gigantic engine he has, to make sure you put a head mounted rear facing laser too.

[Sartris]

The omega supreme is actually Taco Bell’s newest collaboration with the AMA for promoting better colon health and Doritos locos shells

[Wolf72]

The omega supreme is actually Taco Bell’s newest collaboration with the AMA for promoting better colon health and Doritos locos shells

don't you tease me like that! ... I don't care how much TB gives back to me! I would get that.

[Hellraiser]

Don't forget how Rocket Launchers all have a different range....sigh.   So many tables.



One of the things that I hope they do in the future is just give is a very few amount of weapon systems

Like I said above.  I'd be thrilled if the AC & Missiles were both in sizes 2-5-10-20.  And that's it.

Then give us variable stats on the ammo.



The ACs could default to the tonnage of the original IS models,  but they combine features of RAC/LAC/LBX/Ultra

LBX ammo would get a range bonus to match Clan stats.

A combo ammo of RAC/Ultra/Caseless would be shorter ranged like LAC/RAC but would get more shots per ton.
All AC would be 120 points of damage per ton of ammo.  This stuff would be 50-100% more.
And it would be the only ammo type able to use the RAC function.

Precision/LBX and other specialty stuff would only be single shot, because letting someone RAC6+LB20X would just be dickish.
And by going to 120pts per ton, we avoid that annoying precision-20 ton of only 2 shots.


Give the "Advanced" MG the stats of a Light MG but with 2 damage & then remove all other MGs & the APGauss/Magshot from the game.
Say the failed as a concept from too many magnetic chain explosions killing people.



So the "Uber-Launcher-20" can fire any of the existing ammo types.
LRM
SRM
MRM
Streak
ATM-Ext
ATM-Std
ATM-Sht
Inferno
Frag
Etc etc.

And really, feel free to weed out some of the unused ammo types.

Hell, feel free to create some new ammo that simplifies/condenses the options.

Like ATM-Short-Streak-Inferno combo,  Have them down to 9 range like IS/Short/ATM, but do 2 Damage + 2 Heat + They don't shoot if miss.   And does this all at 100 round/ton
I know, that sounds a little crazy, but I'd be fine w/ it.   Call them "Napalm" ammo.

Your "Mid" range ammo could be a combo of Artemis4/LRM/Frag/MRM type stuff.
It gets a +2 cluster, only does 1 damage, goes to 15-18-21 range for long, not sure, and "clusters" on impact so it does full damage to infantry/trees so 20 = 20 dead troopers or whatever Frag normally does & has more rounds/ton than SRM, so 120 like LRM.
Call them "Sub-Munition" ammo

Finally there is your Long/Extreme ammo.   It does out to 27-30?  Like E-ATM or Extreme LRMs
It does have a minimum range of IDK 6 or so.
It gets no bonus to hit for accuracy or cluster table against most targets & only does 1 point of damage, but maybe it combines the effects of EW rounds with some Flak abilities.  So if you have Electronics or are Airborne it homes in & explodes like a SAM.
Give it the Flak bonus or the Artemis-V bonus or something.
Call them "SAM" ammo.

They would all cluster in 5's the way ATM's do which allows LBX to take over as the main crit seeker from SRM.

This seems a little complex for standard play but at the same time would save us loads of space for "new ammo" in TACOPS type products.
And we have precedent for it with the I-ATM.

One Shot launchers & Rocket launchers combine to give you the "Improved Rocket Launcher"
Its the 5-rack from above for 1/2 ton & you get a single salvo of whatever ammo type you choose.
Regular launchers weigh the same as original IS launchers of those sizes except the 5 who is now 2.5 tons.
Crits are 1-1-2-4 for each launcher size.   Heat is 1-2-4-6

Armor could be the old standard, or 2 alternate options.
"New Ferro" - 7 Crits,  25% Point boost for 20/ton
or a combo damage reduction armor.
Call it "Heavy Duty" - 7 Crits,  same points as normal, but, Reduces incoming hits by 20% rounded at the half.
So 15 Pointers will still do 12 to headcap :)
10 Pointers do 8
5 Pointers do 4
3 points = 2
MGs & LBX is unaffected.


Internals just get condensed to Standard & Clan-Endo variety.


Anyway, those are just some thoughts on how to keep "some" variety while removing a lot of the extra stuff we currently have.

Kinda got off topic.

[Hellraiser]

I would think he was more superheavy Drop-LAM Tank to be honest. Or Omni... ;D

That little rocket is the same size as 1/2 a mech & he's clearly an Assault mech in scale though super-heavy works too, so I called him the first Assault LAM.  At best that rocket is a "Small Craft", but that matches Super-Heavy in size so I could get behind that :)
150 Tons-o-Fun

[Sartris]

this happens sometimes. i feel like it's only a concern if the original question is still being actively discussed - and i think fairly early we determined 1) large engines exist and 2) they have limited applications but are bad. large engines are along the same vector as all the superfluous weapons. they add more rules without adding much to the game

i had a fairly straightforward idea for a tech smoothing fix a while back - clan standard becomes the universal tech starting around 3062 and is largely completed by 3090 for new models rolling off the line. TRO: Prototypes becomes the showcase for mainstream CombinedTech rather than showcasing the bloat that had largely been kept on solaris in the 3050s and 60s. by 3150 then you can start introducing a new wave of "omega supreme" gear that is the leap clan gear should have taken if it didn't totally stagnate by the 2900s. add some fun IS shenanigan sensibilities to that and you have a much smaller list of equipment for ilclan - and you don't even have to jump to 3250 to get it.

[Hellraiser]

Yeah, honestly, I'm sitting here thinking of IS tech that I believe could continue forward w/o merging w/ clan tech & be somewhat useful.


1.  Snub PPC  (Though even this could be a new Clan ERPPC with 9 hex extended short range)
2.  Plasma Rifle
3.  Improved Heavy Gauss
4.  Screen Launchers
5.  Bog standard Medium Laser  (Because its hard to argue with this thing for efficiency by BV)

Honestly, I'm at a loss for anything else that really would be "better" than most clan options.

[Hellraiser]

Hmm.

The "Omega-Large Laser"

Heat: 18
Range: 8-15-25
Damage: 16
Accuracy:  +2
Weight:  6
Crits:  3

v/s

The "Omega-Plasma/PPC"

Heat: 15
Range: 9-14-23
Damage: 15 + D6 Heat  (+2D6 v/s Vees/Infantry like Plasma Rifle)
Accuracy:  0
Weight:  6
Crits:  2
No Ammo uses fusion engine plasma like the basic flamer.



Now call me crazy,  but I think that might actually trigger some debate of which option to take?

Thoughts?

[Moonsword]

And we're now firmly in Fan Designs and Rules territory.  Thread moved.

[Daryk]

I think the accuracy bonus of the first far outweighs the extra damage/heat of the second.

[Hellraiser]

Yeah, that is the issue w/ "Pulse".

What if when combining "Heavy" and "ER" it had to drop to just +1 like the original Clan-ER/Pulse combo did?

Also, I took the heat of the "Heavy" series but it should probably be even higher since it has boosted range/accuracy.
If the heat went from 18 to say 24 then what?

[Daryk]

Dropping the accuracy bonus helps... increasing the heat helps a bit more...  Doing both would probably bring it roughly to parity with the second weapon...

[Major Headcase]

Thanks ALOT guys!! You got my post kicked out!!  :-\

 ;D

[idea weenie]

VSP lasers? I prefer VSOP lasers, preferably manufactured on Terra near Cognac, France.

Because if the VSOP lasers are not manufactured near Cognac France, they're just sparkly lasers?    ;D

(for those that don't get it, this is a play on the lawsuit that said if Champagne-style wine was not produced in the Champagne district, it could only be legally called sparkling wine.  More data here)

[Sartris]

Thanks ALOT guys!! You got my post kicked out!!  :-\

 ;D

It didn’t get sent to the hall so there’s that