Comprehensive Zellbrigen Rules

[Geg]

Has anyone fleshed out a comprehensive set of zellbrigen dueling rules?    What's covered in Total Warfare is a alright touchpoint, but it doesn't cover the nitty-gritty details like on who is required to maintain LOS in each phase of the battle and around initiative order impact that requirement.   Or how dezgra points are handled in situations where one side boxes the other into breaking the LOS of weapon band rules?

[Talen5000]

Has anyone fleshed out a comprehensive set of zellbrigen dueling rules?    What's covered in Total Warfare is a alright touchpoint, but it doesn't cover the nitty-gritty details like on who is required to maintain LOS in each phase of the battle or and around initiative order.   Or how dezgra points are handled in situations were once side boxes the other into breaking the LOS of weapon band rules?

In an RPG setting?
Yes.

Fight your own battles unless your opponent...accidentally or on purpose...damages another unit.

[Geg]

In an RPG setting?

Yes,  Destiney with Mech Combat resolved with Total Warfare rules.   I am hoping that someone had detailed rules about what counts doesn't count for earning or losing dezgra points.   Right now its taking a lot of GM engagement because there are a ton of weird corner cases about and it's leaving people pretty unhappy because expectations can't be fully set up front.

[Talen5000]

Yes,  Destiney with Mech Combat resolved with Total Warfare rules.   I am hoping that someone had detailed rules about what counts doesn't count for earning or losing dezgra points.   Right now its taking a lot of GM engagement because there are a ton of weird corner cases about and it's leaving people pretty unhappy because expectations can't be fully set up front.

Dezgra points. IMO, have no place within an RPG.

You roleplay the combat....and the Clan duelling rules are simple.

Fight your own battles.

You fight your target and noone elses, and they fight you and noone else.
If either, through action or negligence, cause damage to another combatant, if you interfere in another duel, then the entire combat becomes a melee where anything goes.

There are no banned weapons, no banned tactics.

Having said that, warriors and Clans have different likes, different likes, different traditions.

Hang Mehta of the Jaguars hated artillery with a passion. But the Jaguars are also one of the only Clans that...at the time...embraced artillery and had dedicated artillery units.
The Nova Cats loathed LAMs. The Falcons and Jaguars appeared to have no issues with them.
The Ice Hellions have a traditions where light Mechs could hang up on a heavier Mech, before withdrawing to bid for the right of the final kill. This tactic would open up the Trial to a Melee against any other Clan

So...the basic rule of Clan combat is simple.

Fight your own battles

And that really only applies to damage. Starmates can still cooperate...BattleMechs and other combat units share targeting and sensory data for example, and can be used to corral or perform recon or other tasks so long as they don't fire.

But the different flavours and rules vary from warrior to warrior, from Clan to Clan.

[Geg]

That’s for the response, though it’s doesn’t support the scenario I am trying to run. 

[Intermittent_Coherence]

Try to avoid melee attacks.

But generally, you can justify pretty much whatever tactic you use if you win.

[grimlock1]

Sarna has some Zell rules and the citation is to TW pg 273-275, but I don't see some of what they are talking about. Stuff like intentionally breaking LOS, moving out of weapons rang or failing to fire a weapon if capable.  The last one is rather ambiguous.  Does "a weapon" mean at least one weapon, or does it refer to each individual weapon?  If the latter, that means Clan pilots are honor bound to alpha strike when every possible....

One thing just occurred to me. The prohibition against C3 and TAG+Arty stems from them requiring multiple units to work together.  What if you challenge multiple units?  Star Captain Skippy can walk up and challenge two mechs in a Level II, if he's feeling his oats that day.  Skippy has invited a 2v1 fight. Can they use their C3i?  Need to ask this over in the rules section.

[Intermittent_Coherence]

Nope. Zell means if you're going 2v1, the 2 will come forward 1 at a time.
So C3i becomes moot.

Tag+ Arty only really comes in when you're trialing with larger units. Cluster-sized or something.
Arty and/or Aerospace support usually gets to be among the first to be bid away.

[grimlock1]

Nope. Zell means if you're going 2v1, the 2 will come forward 1 at a time.
So C3i becomes moot.

Tag+ Arty only really comes in when you're trialing with larger units. Cluster-sized or something.
Arty and/or Aerospace support usually gets to be among the first to be bid away.

I'm going to disagree with you there.  As per TW, page 275,

...considered bold (but acceptable) for a single Clan ’Mech to challenge more than one opponent at the same time. All of single ’Mech’s opponents are considered part of the same duel and may fire on the lone challenger.

A caveat is that this option is specific for fighting IS forces, but I interpret this as a single 2v1 battle, not a pair series of 1v1 battles.   As to TAG+Arty, if some dumb Clanner challenges a Raven and a  Like Tweet
O-Bakemono?  It's still an open question if this formally declared 2v1 duel would allow collaborative weapon systems. I acknowledge that this interpretation is debatable, but I stand by my interpretation that it would be a single 2v1 duel, as opposed to a pair of sequential 1v1's.

[Geg]

We're trying to tell a story where, honor matters, and trading honor for victory has impact on the characters relationship with the rest of the clan.

The scenario spawned this question was a slightly more complicated version of this:

• Blue loses initiative.
• Blue Breaks LOS to go hide in some trees.

Red has the option to:

• Move into the open and engage with inferior mods.
• Go neutral, and position for advantage next round

We landed on both parties are required to maintain LOS at all times.  This has a huge impact on the value of initiative as it was possible to move in such a way that prevented the other player from generating a decent mod.   There were also similar questions about being required to fire the last round of Gauss ammo on a 11 or 12 to hit.    And another one, if a player was required to fire if it generated a heat penalty.   The dezgra points were important because it gave guidance to both the GM and the player on when a highly honorable character would break the rules with no loss to his own honor, or stick with them to gain additional honor.

I don't really want to develop my own highly detailed honor code up front, and dealing with the situations ad-hoc feels a little unfair.  So I was really hoping that someone had already done the work and I could just borrow it for my campaign.

[grimlock1]

We're trying to tell a story where, honor matters, and trading honor for victory has impact on the characters relationship with the rest of the clan.

The scenario spawned this question was a slightly more complicated version of this:

• Blue loses initiative.
• Blue Breaks LOS to go hide in some trees.

Red has the option to:

• Move into the open and engage with inferior mods.
• Go neutral, and position for advantage next round

I think you may be borrowing trouble. Sarna has some Zell rules with the citation of being from TW, but I can't find the corresponding passages in TW. Specifically the parts about "must fire a weapon," maintaining LOS.  I've checked FM: Warden Clans, FM: Crusader Clans, Era Digest: Golden Century, and The Clans: Warriors of Kerensky, and as well as TW, and I cannot find a cannon source that says a Clan warrior, under strict Zell can't break LOS, or choose to hold fire.   That said, I don't have Wolf Clan Sourcebook, Era Digest: Age of War, Operation Klondike, or Battlespace.

The only consistent Zell rules I can find are, declare your challenge, battle that opponent or opponents until somebody wins, lather, rinse repeat.  The duel is voided if a bystander intervenes, or if a participant attacks a bystander.   No C3 or tag+artillery.  If a Naga gets into a duel with a point of Huitzilopochtlis, then I guess arty is fair.   Oh, and melee attacks are frowned upon but not strictly against the rules.

[Geg]

pg 275tw

If a dueling unit intentionally moves out of its opponent’s line of sight, the unit earns 1 dezgra point.
If a dueling unit has line of sight to its opponent but intentionally fails to fire at the enemy, the unit earns 1 dezgra

And I am not looking to the official rules.  I am looking for expanded custom rules to help run a story I am trying to tell.

[Talen5000]

pg 275tw

And I am not looking to the official rules.  I am looking for expanded custom rules to help run a story I am trying to tell.

Those types of rules are good examples of why zellbriggen doesn't work in the board game. They don't reflect the Clan duelling rules and they remove several layers of tactical thinking. These rules almost force the Clan player to embrace stupidity.