Author Topic: What mechs are a great idea but really poor implimentation/comparison?  (Read 2734 times)

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Yeah, the Ryoken II is the first and most obvious example of WK's weird obsession with AC/2 in a game that they also wanted to center around melee. The later Storm Raider being the absolute worst in almost every aspect.

From what I heard, it was due to them starting with the mech's artwork and clicky stats, then having to backfill in Battletech stats based on them, so they had a lot of mechs (and vehicles) with a bunch of guns and the Ballistic damage type.  That meant they were stuck figuring out what they could fit two of in a single side torso for a mech that had that speed and mass.
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BATTLEMASTER

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How about the Bombardier? Over twice the cost of an Archer 2R with only half the endurance.

I can't agree with this on the basis that cbill costs are nonsense.

In a BV point of view I think it's a toss-up - maneuverability vs endurance.
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Retry

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Meh, might as well make all the Golden BB fans upset at once a say anything with a AC/2. Investing way too much tonnage for 2 points of damage regardless of range.

Mauler, 24 tons for maybe 8 damage. JagerMech 12 tons + ammo that could have been devoted to armor and heat sinks. ect.

I get it, It has some crazy reach ... but 2 damage? Less than a small laser? Not for more tonnage than a LRM 10 or a Large Laser.   
Counterpoint: Despite its heavier-than-necessary weight, the AC/2 does hold a valid niche: knocking down aircraft and VTOLs, both of which being able to make a hit is more important than the raw power of that hit.

The AC/5 however is a lemon.  If you have a unit with 1 AC/5, you'd have gotten better performance with a bracket-fire mix of short-ranged medium lasers and long-ranged LRMs.  If you have 2 AC/5s for some reason, you're always better off with a PPC + heat sinks.  The AC/2 has that one trump card, sheer range, that makes them useful for specific functions other than the basic "Kill 'Mech" role.  The AC/5 however is invariably outmoded by other weapons or combinations of weapons in any role.

Or to put it another way, I've seen field refits of AC/5s with PPCs, and sometimes even AC/5s replaced with AC/2s (In fact, one of these was a JM6-S, which significantly improved its AA capabilities and durability), and have them used for good effect.  On the other hand, I've not seen anyone voluntarily replace their existing equipment or combination of equipment to refit an AC/5.

garhkal

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THe only way i'd do that, is for a RAC5.
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Kojak

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The 'Mech that immediately came to mind was the Helios. An escort 'Mech for your big slow gaussboats is a good idea, but the Helios just gets folded under any real fire.


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MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Put the Helios's pilot in a red shirt and it makes more sense.
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JadeHellbringer

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From what I heard, it was due to them starting with the mech's artwork and clicky stats, then having to backfill in Battletech stats based on them, so they had a lot of mechs (and vehicles) with a bunch of guns and the Ballistic damage type.  That meant they were stuck figuring out what they could fit two of in a single side torso for a mech that had that speed and mass.

So... that's partly true, but it's a little more complicated than that.

Unique Mechs in the early few sets of MW:DA (everything up to and including the Falcon's Prey release)  had a little manila folder included that told you about the Mech and the pilot, sort of a miniature TRO/bio to flesh out what you had in your sweaty little palms. While those didn't include record sheets, of course, since this wasn't intended to be part of newly-rechristened Classic Battletech, it did give info on the Mech outside of that- name, ground speed, jumping, weaponry, manufacturer, that kind of thing.

In the case of the Ryoken II, which was actually from the very first MW:DA release, the dossier did indeed give stats for four LB-2X and two LRM-15. So in a case like that, there's clear stats to work from outside of the basic look of the Mech- and to their credit, the people who made Record Sheets: Dark Age did a pretty good job of taking those stats and making passable units out of them for Mechs like the Ryoken II, Arbalest, Atlas, etc.- and presumably later dossiers helped to flesh out units ranging from the Tian-Zong to the Gyrfalcon as sets continued to release.

Exceptions abound, naturally, since none of this was ever intended to convert to Battletech stats. The Shadow Cat II's dossier, if you build the Mech exactly as the dossier suggests, ends up with 1.5 tons of armor total as I recall. And of course, the Sun Cobra had the odd situation in which one dossier gave it twin Gauss rifles and a Clan background, another had twin PPCs and was Davion-made (and kudos to the authors for finding a way to make that work!). But at least in the case of the early releases, the dossiers were kept as close as possible for conversion in RS:MWDA to give us the Mechs in that book, rather than just saying 'those look like medium lasers, cool'. (Anything post-Falcon's Prey didn't have these handy dossiers, and definitely had to be reverse-engineered by looks alone)
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Minemech

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 The Firecracker, better known as the Commando (Or Firework...). As someone who likes featherweights, I admire how it was designed with such a flaw to give it character but wow. That theoretical firepower is genuinely a thing of beauty on paper. Its speed is barely adequate for recon. When you ambush people with it in double blind, make sure to wear your most seraphical smile.

abou

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Infernos had no direct affect on Infantry (Conventional or BA), and would only set the hex on fire.
What, that can't be right...

*looks in BMR*

Hunh... well what about...

*looks in BTC:RoW*

Well that's just dumb. The Fireball is terrible.

I suppose its one benefit was that it was cheap enough in BV that you could harass 'mechs with it. With infernos it could limit some designs with heat or use its speed to always move to the rear of an opponent. However, that is using it in a way it was not canonically designed for.

Retry

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Come to think of it, I suppose I should actually put in my take for this topic.

On the Inner Sphere side, the Helepolis.  High-mobility long-ranged tube artillery that can keep up and provide fire support for Battlemech formations is a good idea.  The Helepolis variants, though, mount backup weapons as though they're expecting to duke it out at point blank with other Battlemechs, and it really impedes what should be its core competency of mobile long-ranged indirect fire.  Really, it doesn't need more than a couple medium laser variants for backup, and should've just invested the rest of the weight for jump jets or a bigger engine.

On the Clan side, the Naga.  It's quite fast and very heavily armed as an artillery 'Mech, but why is this thing an omni?  There are five alternative configurations and none of them are meaningfully different due to the huge Arrows taking up what could have been pod space.  If I need Clan Artillery I'd rather just have a Bowman.

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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I'm surprised that the Gladiator omnimech hasn't been mentioned yet.  A fast, maneuverable assault mech?  Not a bad idea.  Sticking too-thin side torso armor on it along with a stupidly high amount of fixed heatsinks?  Bad.  I can excuse the fixed jump jets and MASC since they were still working out the rules for omnimechs at the time, but there's no excuse for the fixed heatsink that's outside the engine.
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Lone-Wolf

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I go with the head hunter mechs, like the Exterminator and the Spector.
Yes, they have stealth capabilities but then they lack the one-shot-kill capability if their target is in a mech.

ColBosch

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I suppose its one benefit was that it was cheap enough in BV that you could harass 'mechs with it.

BV didn't exist yet, either.
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abou

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BV didn't exist yet, either.
BMR and MaxTech?

ColBosch

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BMR and MaxTech?

TR3055 predates both of those.
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Charistoph

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BMR and MaxTech?

1998 and 1997 respectively.

TRO: 3055 was in 1992, between the two Compendiums.

At least if Sarna's correct.  I remember getting them both, but I wasn't buying anything after June 1997, due to a job change at that time.
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abou

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TR3055 predates both of those.
I am aware, but the rules change didn't happen until after Total Warfare. So referring to BV isn't exactly an anachronism.

Charistoph

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I am aware, but the rules change didn't happen until after Total Warfare. So referring to BV isn't exactly an anachronism.

BV didn't come in to play till BMR.  It's predecessor was CV which arrived in the Tactical Handbook in 1994.

So, really, before then it was either mirror matches, tonnage, or "what felt right".  And that's where the Fireball was introduced.
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abou

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BV didn't come in to play till BMR.  It's predecessor was CV which arrived in the Tactical Handbook in 1994.

So, really, before then it was either mirror matches, tonnage, or "what felt right".  And that's where the Fireball was introduced.
My guy, not to go on for a tit-for-tat here, but I've been playing the game since 1995. I am well-aware of the history of CV, BV, BV2. My point isn't that the BV was released before the Fireball. My point was that the Fireball HAD some more utility when the streak-SRM 2 could use infernos and that its low BV played into that calculus. That becomes meta rather than in-universe reasoning, which I admitted in my post in addition to being mistaken about infantry. Simply because the Fireball debuted before the use of BV doesn't mean that it suddenly becomes unusable with the new system, which leaves 8 years of using BV and inferno-loaded Streak SRM-2s together.

SCC

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What, that can't be right...

*looks in BMR*

Hunh... well what about...

*looks in BTC:RoW*

Well that's just dumb. The Fireball is terrible.

I suppose its one benefit was that it was cheap enough in BV that you could harass 'mechs with it. With infernos it could limit some designs with heat or use its speed to always move to the rear of an opponent. However, that is using it in a way it was not canonically designed for.
It gets worse, for a period of time after their introduction Elementals where actually IMMUNE to fir damage/Infernos.

Giovanni Blasini

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It feels a lot like Pentagon Wars, but the debacle that was the Bradley wasn't well-known at that point. But yowza, the Magi is a waste of...well, everything.

I do kind of feel obligated to point out that the movie does kind of inflate the importance of Refomers like Burton, and deflate the competence of the Ballistic Research Laboratory.  I'm not saying the Bradley didn't have some developmental issues, but it's also true that Burton and the Reformers had some really wacky ideas...

I go with the head hunter mechs, like the Exterminator and the Spector.
Yes, they have stealth capabilities but then they lack the one-shot-kill capability if their target is in a mech.

Thank you.  I was surprised nobody mentioned the Exterminator sooner.  Really, any of the overengined designs probably qualify, like the Cicada.
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Hellraiser

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OR a LOT of small pulses, to tear into ba..
I'd rather not get into 3 hex range against BA. 
Less Range & Firepower means you'll be lucky put out 11 damage to kill 1 per turn (assuming you also got lucky enough to stack on the same trooper)
Ideally the Fireball would have been created a couple years later & used quad ERMLs.

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We know the story to the Magi,
................
Want to have some fun? Try building this 30 tons smaller. Don't change a thing other than the tonnage, and as a result the engine size. It's kinda hilarious actually.
The Magi, possibly the only design worse than the Charger & Dasher-II in terms of Over-Engine Syndrome.
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Starfury

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Oh if we're going  vehicles?

The Puma.  Lots of guns, heavy armor, ok movement.

The issue? You have a pair of LRM-20s mounted on the SIDES of your tank.  This means you're existing your weaker armor in order to fire one of them at a target, and you only have six rounds for each. Put them where they belong, in the turret.

SCC

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The Magi, possibly the only design worse than the Charger & Dasher-II in terms of Over-Engine Syndrome.
No, the Magi at least has the sense to mount Medium Lasers

Cannonshop

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No, the Magi at least has the sense to mount Medium Lasers

On a VEHICLE.

The Magi comes with LOTS of problems, chief among them being it's not useful for anything, including the alleged purpose for which it was designed.

It wasn't even usefulf or that purpose when TRO 2750 came out, either.

There are certain designs that are just...well...bad.

With Vehicles, you have the usual suspects.

With 'mechs, there are a number of designs that just don't make sense (too fragile for the tonnage while being slow, and having no range or light firepower) or whose initial look is "Wowza" until you use them and find out that eclectic weapons fit means it's a poor performer at EVERY range.

The game is served by having these 'dud designs'.
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BATTLEMASTER

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The Magi comes with LOTS of problems, chief among them being it's not useful for anything, including the alleged purpose for which it was designed.

I think we have a winner here!   :smilie_party_cheers:

*Looks at thread title*

 :headbang:

Jokes aside, I think the Magi for vehicles and the Fireball for 'mechs are about the worst for their intended role for anything.  Though I think the Magi would've been a good vehicle for the Age of War setting, though it uses all-modern components  :undecided:
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Cannonshop

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I think we have a winner here!   :smilie_party_cheers:

*Looks at thread title*

 :headbang:

Jokes aside, I think the Magi for vehicles and the Fireball for 'mechs are about the worst for their intended role for anything.  Though I think the Magi would've been a good vehicle for the Age of War setting, though it uses all-modern components  :undecided:
I'm not sure you could BUILD a Magi using primitive components.  maybe something to ask the lads in the design forums...
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Prospernia

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I know I said the, "Vulcan", but I take it back. the Vulcan is really good at terrorizing and oppressing civilians yearning to be free. With a good pilot that can stomp on people is icing on the cake.  Also, the Vulcan should have gunners as crew.

Col Toda

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The Thanatos was a heavy calvary 5/8/5 with an ECM suite ment to survive disconnecting a C3 network.  So under armed it fails to justify ether BV or C bill cost . Always disappointing.