Author Topic: Armored Fightning Vehicles MK III  (Read 240031 times)

DoctorMonkey

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Re: Armored Fightning Vehicles MK III
« Reply #960 on: 29 October 2017, 10:01:01 »
I'm a bit worried that we may spill over into Rule 4 or otherwise unpleasant chat if we dig too deeply into the "kosher bacon" / Halal Magach thing


I do think the upgraded M60 looks very pretty, given the lineage back via the M48 etc does this make it a bit like a ground based B-52?


(yes, I am deliberately trying to change the subject or at least steer it in a different direction)
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Kidd

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Re: Armored Fightning Vehicles MK III
« Reply #961 on: 29 October 2017, 10:03:57 »
that infographic tho... isn't that a Po in Davion Guard colours?

Matti

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Re: Armored Fightning Vehicles MK III
« Reply #962 on: 29 October 2017, 13:45:03 »
A Wiesel is not built to carry any sort of armour. It's pretty much a - underpowered - car with some sheet metal slapped on it to the full extent that the frame allows without breaking down. You'd need to redesign the entire frame and suspension, basically a new vehicle. A Wiesel outsized to 7-8t weight probably would break down before you could roll it off an aircraft...
Is it (Wiesel) any better than Universal Carrier or Sonderkraftfahrzeug 250?



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Re: Armored Fightning Vehicles MK III
« Reply #963 on: 29 October 2017, 14:10:49 »
Neither of those can make the back of the vehicle lift half a meter off the ground when doing a full stop brake, so i'd go with "it's better" ;)

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Re: Armored Fightning Vehicles MK III
« Reply #964 on: 29 October 2017, 16:21:28 »
Weiel provides some fragmentation protection, so it's better than the UC in that respect.

You can't fit an infantry squad in the back of a Weisel (without surgery); but the Weisel's suspension is both considerably simpler, and massively more reliable.
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The Eagle

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Re: Armored Fightning Vehicles MK III
« Reply #965 on: 29 October 2017, 17:01:35 »
Not to interrupt the current line of discussion, but I was wondering if anyone had noticed that the title of the thread is "Armored FightNing Vehicles?"  It's been bugging me ever since I noticed it. . . . about three months ago!
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Re: Armored Fightning Vehicles MK III
« Reply #966 on: 30 October 2017, 10:12:06 »
Not to interrupt the current line of discussion, but I was wondering if anyone had noticed that the title of the thread is "Armored FightNing Vehicles?"  It's been bugging me ever since I noticed it. . . . about three months ago!

I had not, but now that you mentioned it...I can't stop looking at it!

Daryk

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Re: Armored Fighting Vehicles MK III
« Reply #967 on: 30 October 2017, 17:06:23 »
The post titles can be edited (like I did above)... All we need to fix it in the forum is for the OP to edit the first post...

DoctorMonkey

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Re: Armoured Fighting Vehicles MK III
« Reply #968 on: 30 October 2017, 17:15:48 »
The post titles can be edited (like I did above)... All we need to fix it in the forum is for the OP to edit the first post...


You're right: you can
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Re: Armored Fightning Vehicles MK III
« Reply #969 on: 30 October 2017, 22:46:34 »
Eh, it's like Lightning with more fight!

CDAT

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Re: Armored Fightning Vehicles MK III
« Reply #970 on: 31 October 2017, 00:36:36 »
Matter of preference, but here's my take: "Main battle tank" is a role, and an ill-defined one at that. "Heavy tank" is a weight class. Also one man's meat is another's... appetiser I guess; different countries' "MBTs" are of different weight classes. So I prefer using the latter :D

Just some very broad stroke background info on tanks, when they first came out you had male and female tanks (depending on if they had cannons or MG for their main guns). Later they started calling them light (some called them tankettes) and heavy but if you ask me that was more to do with size/role then truly weight based. After WWI they keep working of different tank designs and roles for them.

So around the start of WWII there was the standards designations of cruiser tank, infantry tank, anti-tank "tank" (tank destroyer), assault gun. The Cruiser Tank was a modern version of the Cavalry, they would break through the enemy lines and attack the lines of communications. They were generally lightly armored but for the time fast, with some firepower but geared to taking on unarmored to lightly armored support units only. The infantry tank was generally heavily armored but slow (some with a top speed full out of 8mph) they had good firepower but was designed to support the infantry in the assault. The tank destroyer was just as you would guess from its name designed to destroy tanks, so it has a good anti-tank gun most were fast to very fast with light to very light armor (most were also open topped) intended to attack from cover and ambush. The assault gun is very much like the infantry tank, but with out the turret were generally more mobile. They also were mostly used with larger rounds and used HE rounds and could fire directly and indirectly. As the war progressed the cruiser tank became light/medium tanks, the Infantry tank became the medium/heavy tanks, and towards the end of the war you even saw some super-heavy tanks. At this point tanks started to become more multi-role but the weight class had more to do with what part of the speed/firepower/armor was on top, you still had tank destroyers and assault guns but they were being used less and less for the mission they were intended and more the same as the general purpose tanks.

Post WWII up to modern time the trend of multipurpose tanks with the weight classes being used less and less eventually medium and larger being replaced with Main Battle Tank (MBT). Just some interesting numbers light tanks lightest that I could find came in at 1.5 tons combat loaded, to heaviest at 35 tons. Medium tanks lightest 14 tons, heaviest 42 tons. Heavy tanks lightest from 28 tons, heaviest 76.9. And just for fun super-heavy tanks lightest from 60 tons, heaviest produced (Maus) 188 tons, heaviest that had plans drawn up (Landkreuzer P. 1000 Ratte) at 1000 tons. So as can be seen there is a fair amount of cross over when using weight as the classification, I think this is mostly as technology improved you can get better performance so you can go bigger and still have the same performance that you had with more armor and/or firepower. Now using the MBT term weight does not come into it as it is based on the role it is designed to do.

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Re: Armored Fightning Vehicles MK III
« Reply #971 on: 31 October 2017, 00:43:09 »
Infantry tanks were largely built with the expectation that it would be similar to the trench warfare of World War One.  Many of them, like the Matilda and Churchill, didn't actually have particularly powerful guns (though the Churchill I had a howitzer on the body, as did the French Char B1 Bis).
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Feenix74

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Re: Armored Fightning Vehicles MK III
« Reply #972 on: 31 October 2017, 07:09:21 »
100 years ago today, the 4th Light Horse Brigade of the Australian Mounted Division conducted a cavalry charge with bayonets in hand to capture the wells at Beersheba.



More information:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Beersheba_(1917)#Beersheba
https://www.awm.gov.au/articles/blog/the-charge-of-the-4th-light-horse-brigade-at-beersheba

For those who prefer visuals:
https://youtu.be/p7dm_nbjNjE

Lest we forget

Incoming fire has the right of way.

The only thing more accurate than incoming enemy fire is incoming friendly fire.

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Kidd

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Re: Armored Fightning Vehicles MK III
« Reply #973 on: 31 October 2017, 08:22:50 »
Now using the MBT term weight does not come into it as it is based on the role it is designed to do.
Fair enough.

Conversely, the argument school of thought against using the phrase "Main Battle Tank" is that the emergence of clear needs for "Mobile Protected Firepower" and "Mobile Gun System" and "Armoured Gun System", to use 3 American examples (but by no means is the phenomenon solely American), indicates that "MBT" is not the general-purpose tank it is made out to be, and essentially armies are going back, once again, to the light-medium-heavy paradigm, with "MBTs" mainly in the heavy class.

In my mind it is a matter of preference, and either form is correct. When I first heard this argument I dismissed it. But of late I am increasingly coming round to the idea.

Weirdo

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Re: Armored Fightning Vehicles MK III
« Reply #974 on: 31 October 2017, 08:39:35 »
I suspect that calling something an MBT or medium tank or AGS is a lot like deciding to call a warship a destroyer or frigate or whatever: There is no true universal classification, and he who fills out the forms in triplicate, makes the names.
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Daryk

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Re: Armored Fightning Vehicles MK III
« Reply #975 on: 31 October 2017, 17:58:20 »
I suspect that calling something an MBT or medium tank or AGS is a lot like deciding to call a warship a destroyer or frigate or whatever: There is no true universal classification, and he who fills out the forms in triplicate, makes the names.
It's more like "he who survives the JCIDS process makes the names".

What?  It's Halloween, so I figured the full dose of evil was appropriate...

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Re: Armored Fightning Vehicles MK III
« Reply #976 on: 31 October 2017, 19:13:43 »
... JCIDS process...

While I can guess, I'm gonna file that under "Things Man was not Meant to Know"...
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Charlie 6

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Re: Armored Fightning Vehicles MK III
« Reply #977 on: 31 October 2017, 19:16:56 »
It's more like "he who survives the JCIDS process makes the names".

What?  It's Halloween, so I figured the full dose of evil was appropriate...
Way too inside, my friend.

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Re: Armored Fightning Vehicles MK III
« Reply #978 on: 31 October 2017, 19:19:02 »
You're both right...  ::)

CDAT

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Re: Armored Fightning Vehicles MK III
« Reply #979 on: 31 October 2017, 23:30:10 »
Fair enough.

Conversely, the argument school of thought against using the phrase "Main Battle Tank" is that the emergence of clear needs for "Mobile Protected Firepower" and "Mobile Gun System" and "Armoured Gun System", to use 3 American examples (but by no means is the phenomenon solely American), indicates that "MBT" is not the general-purpose tank it is made out to be, and essentially armies are going back, once again, to the light-medium-heavy paradigm, with "MBTs" mainly in the heavy class.

In my mind it is a matter of preference, and either form is correct. When I first heard this argument I dismissed it. But of late I am increasingly coming round to the idea.

This is totally true we Americans (at least as much maybe more than others) like our acronyms. Having said that I think a lot of it is the different carer fields trying to get there hooks into it (looking at you infantry). Also neither the Armored Gun System (AGS), Mobile Gun System (MGS), or the Mobile Protected Firepower (MPF) are multi purpose combat systems they are AGS a replacement  for a light tank, MGS and at least to me MPF are solutions looking for a problem, but as I said none of them are truly multipurpose as they can not really even go toe to toe with them self, let a lone a real main battle tank.

PsihoKekec

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Re: Armored Fightning Vehicles MK III
« Reply #980 on: 02 November 2017, 02:54:54 »
Reasons why to stay buttoned up:

Shoot first, laugh later.

Feenix74

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Re: Armored Fightning Vehicles MK III
« Reply #981 on: 02 November 2017, 03:36:30 »
I guess that is the fast and easy way to apply camo face paint  ;D
Incoming fire has the right of way.

The only thing more accurate than incoming enemy fire is incoming friendly fire.

Always remember that your weapon was built by the lowest bidder.


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Smegish

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Re: Armored Fightning Vehicles MK III
« Reply #982 on: 02 November 2017, 04:22:36 »
Face, neck, sinus canal... all of it gets its own coating of mud camo paint

ANS Kamas P81

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Re: Armored Fightning Vehicles MK III
« Reply #983 on: 02 November 2017, 06:11:57 »
"Ivan, is not mud!  Is not mud at all!"
"Vladimir, is trick!  Smell as you do, enemy tanks run in fear!"
Der Hölle Rache kocht in meinem Herzen,
Tod und Verzweiflung flammet um mich her!
Fühlt nicht durch dich Jadefalke Todesschmerzen,
So bist du meine Tochter nimmermehr!

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Re: Armored Fightning Vehicles MK III
« Reply #984 on: 02 November 2017, 09:08:06 »
Reasons why to stay buttoned up:



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Kidd

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Re: Armored Fightning Vehicles MK III
« Reply #985 on: 02 November 2017, 09:15:48 »
In Soviet Russia, mud drive through tank

Weirdo

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Re: Armored Fightning Vehicles MK III
« Reply #986 on: 02 November 2017, 09:24:08 »
As I understand it, that's universal to all tanks... :)
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Kidd

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Re: Armored Fightning Vehicles MK III
« Reply #987 on: 02 November 2017, 10:08:37 »
Thai Norinco VT-4



As I understand it, that's universal to all tanks... :)
yeah of course ;D

Cannonshop

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Re: Armored Fightning Vehicles MK III
« Reply #988 on: 02 November 2017, 10:16:46 »
Reasons why to stay buttoned up:



the lengths a Tanker will go to play in the dirt like an infantryman!
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ColBosch

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Re: Armored Fightning Vehicles MK III
« Reply #989 on: 03 November 2017, 07:28:51 »
Reasons why to stay buttoned up:



You call that mud? Try Middle-of-Nowhere Kentucky in the ass-end of winter. I watched a tank get so stuck that it took two other M1s, a recovery vehicle, about five hundred feet of cable, and an advanced mathematics degree to get it moving again. I was afraid that if I got off the tank, the mud would just suck me right in and they'd never find me. My crew, in fact, never did get off the tank during the mud course, and we STILL got muck everywhere. I got tasked with cleaning out the subfloor - a hatch in the base of the turret that opened to reveal various components - and there was noticeable amounts of mud in there, where by all rights it never should've gotten. But at least I was still better off than the poor bastards who got to chisel compacted mud out of the skirts.

Kentucky mud disproves the meme that everything is worse in Russia.
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