Author Topic: Forum members expectations of moderation (from the Goodbye thread)  (Read 25049 times)

Youngblood

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Re: Re: Goodbye
« Reply #30 on: 22 October 2012, 11:53:24 »
*snip*

Correct me if this paraphrasing is incorrect: Your opinion is that the moderators are not doing their jobs adequately because you perceive that they allow certain posters to break the rules more than you.

Davout73

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Re: Re: Goodbye
« Reply #31 on: 22 October 2012, 11:57:20 »
Quote
You know, yes, that is true in an ideal world. Tell, me though....have you ever read a post as more aggressive then it
really was because the person's avatar was something extremely aggressive or condescending? I know that I have,
and, as a psych student, I should know better.

That's not what he's saying.

If person A gets dinged for violating a rule, and Person B doesn't get dinged for violating the same rule, then you have a problem.

I've moderated boards on and off for over fifteen years, and yes, mods are human.  That means they're just as fallible as the rest of the posters on the forum, that they also play favorites, and they are also too quick to enforce a rule, and are willing to let some posters slide because of their contributions to the game or site. 

And if there are too few mods for a forum, then the admins need to step up and get some more.

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Col.Hengist

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Re: Re: Goodbye
« Reply #32 on: 22 October 2012, 12:01:12 »
I don't want to speak for Stormfury( he can speak well enough for himself ) but i think what he is saying is whats warnable/bannable for one should be the same for every one...no matter what avatar they have, including a battlemaster avatar.

 Example. I know people who have gotten warning for talking about wars or political situations from hundreds or thousands of years ago but i just recently saw a red battlemaster icon post something about a war and the politics about it from thousands of years ago. I thought... i wonder why that's not warnable but blee it off because i really don't care about politics of that era. But what if there was a hystorian of that era and he took offence to it...would it then be a warnable/bannable offence?
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Col.Hengist

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Re: Re: Goodbye
« Reply #33 on: 22 October 2012, 12:02:52 »
I'd volunteer. I love these forums.
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HikageMaru

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Re: Re: Goodbye
« Reply #34 on: 22 October 2012, 12:05:41 »
I'll volunteer to make faction banners!

Arkansas Warrior

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Re: Re: Goodbye
« Reply #35 on: 22 October 2012, 12:06:25 »
I'd volunteer. I love these forums.
I get the feeling that volunteering would more likely get you off the list.  That they tend to look for people who wouldn't necessarily have thought they would make good mods.
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Re: Re: Goodbye
« Reply #36 on: 22 October 2012, 12:11:49 »
Yup. pretty much that AW

I actually got selected the week after i got warned. Never assumed i'd be a candidate.

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Col.Hengist

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Re: Re: Goodbye
« Reply #37 on: 22 October 2012, 12:12:58 »
 
I get the feeling that volunteering would more likely get you off the list.  That they tend to look for people who wouldn't necessarily have thought they would make good mods.

 Oh, I'm pretty sure I'd never be considered. I'm not very bright , i do ( at times) get a little upset at people.and my memory is failing me at times. I'd still volunteer tho. I know i could keep my feelings in check as well as anyone else also.
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Youngblood

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Re: Re: Goodbye
« Reply #38 on: 22 October 2012, 12:15:26 »
Okay, wait, hold on.  Does anyone else see the faulty logic here?

Forum rules are designed to facilitate discussion, NOT prevent it.  (There's a special issue about Unseen art, but that's not directly related to this topic.)

Why are we blaming the system and its enforcers instead of perhaps, you know, maybe looking at ourselves from a different perspective as to how our posts could possibly be making discussions difficult?

Why are we RACING for equality in rule-breaking ability?

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Re: Re: Goodbye
« Reply #39 on: 22 October 2012, 12:23:58 »
Youngblood, You're just restating an opinion that's been debunked by several posters. For the fourth time, nobody is arguing that everyone should be able to break the rules equally. Please read others' posts.
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Stormfury

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Re: Re: Goodbye
« Reply #40 on: 22 October 2012, 12:27:50 »
Correct me if this paraphrasing is incorrect: Your opinion is that the moderators are not doing their jobs adequately because you perceive that they allow certain posters to break the rules more than you.

No.

My opinion is that there is a double standard being applied. Just as one example, I was issued a Warning for saying that another poster was being deliberately obtuse. Use the forum's search feature; there are two posts using it in the exact same fashion that I know I have previously reported.

I use the same phrase the same way, and attract a Warning. Other users do so, and nothing happens.

And that is just one example. Discussing it any further seems pointless in the extreme, however.

Quote
Why are we RACING for equality in rule-breaking ability?

Because what is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. If a post violates the forum rules, it violates the forum rules. Who it was posted by or is directed at is entirely irrelevent.

I am not looking for special exemption, despite what you seem to be saying. What I am looking for is consistency.

Quote
For the fourth time, nobody is arguing that everyone should be able to break the rules equally.

For a certain value of "equally" he is correct. I believe that if a rule is going to be applied, it should be applied evenly- meaning that anyone who breaks it suffers the Wrath of Mod.

It gets to be extremely frustrating when I know that if I say something there will be disciplinary action taken as a result whilst others are free to do so.
« Last Edit: 22 October 2012, 12:34:51 by Stormfury »
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Maingunnery

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Re: Re: Goodbye
« Reply #41 on: 22 October 2012, 12:42:43 »

Are you sure that the others don't get a warning?
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Stormfury

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Re: Re: Goodbye
« Reply #42 on: 22 October 2012, 12:45:32 »
Posts that get a user Warned are also deleted. That they are still up indicates they have not been.

And, again, that was merely one, easily verifiable, example.
« Last Edit: 22 October 2012, 12:49:12 by Stormfury »
Mordin Solus: We need a plan to stop them.
John Shepard: We fight or we die. That's the plan.
Ashley Williams: Wow. That's the plan? Is it just me, or did Shepard have better plans before he died?
Urdnot Wrex: Silence! This is the best plan anyone, anywhere has ever had!
Garrus Vakarian: Yes! I AM SO THERE I AM THERE ALREADY!
Tali'Zora vas Normandy: *Facepalm*

Youngblood

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Re: Re: Goodbye
« Reply #43 on: 22 October 2012, 12:54:47 »
My point is that the moderation of other forum users' posts shouldn't be what you care about.  That is between the moderators and them only.  If we could just accept our own mistakes for what they are, question OURSELVES more, work to change our own mannerisms, and not worry about others' misconduct, why would it even matter if there was a double standard being applied or not?

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Re: Re: Goodbye
« Reply #44 on: 22 October 2012, 13:02:55 »
Rarely posts are removed when no warning has been issued. One of my posts was removed and I was PM by the Mods with a courtesy message saying that the post had been removed but that I had broken no rules and was not in trouble. I think in that case they were in the process of deciding to or had already decided to lock the thread in question.

Stormfury

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Re: Re: Goodbye
« Reply #45 on: 22 October 2012, 13:05:22 »
Quote
My point is that the moderation of other forum users' posts shouldn't be what you care about.  That is between the moderators and them only.  If we could just accept our own mistakes for what they are, question OURSELVES more, work to change our own mannerisms, and not worry about others' misconduct, why would it even matter if there was a double standard being applied or not?

Because for a start, there is no way to be certain if what we are about to post is against the rules or not. It is a bit difficult to change posting habits when some things are apparently acceptable and your first notice otherwise is a Warning PM; it is extremely difficult to want to change your posting habits when others are allowed to do the things that get you Warned.

Secondly, I have recently been in threads where other board members have directed comments towards me or others that I have recieved Warnings for when employing lesser, similar, or even identical phraseology and/or levels of vitriol, reported those posts, and then been forced to bite my tongue and accept the decision of staff when told that those posts were examined and determined not to contravene the board rules.

Both cause a considerable amount of aggravation.

The latter, especially, provides a lizard-brain impetus to just flame out and see what happens next.

And clearly I'm not alone in having those experiences.
« Last Edit: 22 October 2012, 13:13:07 by Stormfury »
Mordin Solus: We need a plan to stop them.
John Shepard: We fight or we die. That's the plan.
Ashley Williams: Wow. That's the plan? Is it just me, or did Shepard have better plans before he died?
Urdnot Wrex: Silence! This is the best plan anyone, anywhere has ever had!
Garrus Vakarian: Yes! I AM SO THERE I AM THERE ALREADY!
Tali'Zora vas Normandy: *Facepalm*

HikageMaru

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Re: Re: Goodbye
« Reply #46 on: 22 October 2012, 13:07:30 »
I have never asked anybody to be warned.  Have I been a little hacked about something that someone wrote?  Perhaps.  But it would have to be pretty severe for me to narc on the person.  Typically, I'll just PM the person and asked them what the heck is their problem---you know, the whole go-to-your-brother-first thing.  Life's too short to get excited over everyone who rubs you the wrong way.

StoneRhino

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Re: Re: Goodbye
« Reply #47 on: 22 October 2012, 13:16:12 »
You know, yes, that is true in an ideal world. Tell, me though....have you ever read a post as more aggressive then it
really was because the person's avatar was something extremely aggressive or condescending? I know that I have,
and, as a psych student, I should know better.


As a fellow psychology student I know what you are suggesting. The problem with what you suggested is something that the mods should be told about, that they should know before ever clicking "yes, I accept mod powers" that perhaps the names, avatar, and signature may cause more primitive areas of our brain to activate, but that they should stop and look at what was actually said.

What it comes down to is not a matter of X number of years of psychological training. I need one more psych class to fulfill my psych class requirements for my bachelors. I know on another forum that there are those that are working on their masters and higher. Even if you were finishing your Associates, though you could be finishing your doctorates for all I know, you would probably understand that what we see is in a sense irrelevant for a moderator if they followed a set of rules and applied some half baked investigative work. Doing so would sidestep anything that we would have to say ever becoming relevant. Of course we could suggest they cover up the names, the avatars, the signatures and look at just the words so that nothing other then logic and reading comprehension is applied.

We are not looking for them to dissect a post for emotional content. We are not asking them to psychoanalyze the poster(s) that may be offending someone. Therefore any cues that trigger any reactions is unnecessary and may be suggestive of an individual's ability to moderate properly. Of course if we are going to suggest that psychology has anything to do, I would like to bring up that there have been posts that were openly hostile towards me over something I had said that was not meant to suggest anything about the character of the person, yet the comments made at me were. Such posts have sat around for a few days without a peep, without a mod blowing up the post and or thread.

When I come back and read it and see how long it has been there it is suggestive about the kind of posts that are going to be allowed. Just because my post might be far more brutally effective due to stabbing points instead of blunt and clearly insulting comments does not mean that I am being offensive for the sake of being offensive, nor attacking the individual, I am the one that triggers the moderation. At that point I would hope that the mods would realize that 2 days went by without them being offended by, and without the others being offended by the post against me, and that there is a particular signal being sent to the attacked individual. When such is indicated not all personalities are going to want to hit the "moderator" button. Instead they may decide that this is okay, so making some sharp statements about the behavior of the other person, or their logic is perfectly acceptable. Not everyone wants to cry and curl up in a fetal position.

I have no problem with people, but people tend to have a problem with me. It does not matter if it is in person with someone trying to make threats, or someone online making insults, I have no problem responding. I have no problem making the other person look like a fool, making them feel stupid, getting them to back down, even making it so they want to leave a job or simply state that they no longer have any desire to argue with me because they know I'll cut down their arguments. Mods either need to adjust due to personality or just follow the rules.

I think people who do not make personal attacks should get a warning, just a warning saying "calm down, take a walk from the thread" instead of "we are going to ban you!!" The frustration builds up and it becomes attached to the forum and the mods instead of just the offending individual. It also causes people to wonder if people are being targeted since someone did not get offended by the direct personal attack, but they are offended by an attack against the logic and behavior of someone making personal attacks? What I really hate is having a thought out post getting blown up because of one little quip that someone didn't like. it makes me want to avoid the forums more then it makes me want to reconsider what I might have said, though I know it was not a personal attack. The way i see it, don't go around provoking rhinos if you can't take take the hit. But i would rather have a warning and ahve them delete the "offending" line.

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Re: Re: Goodbye
« Reply #48 on: 22 October 2012, 13:19:44 »
My point is that the moderation of other forum users' posts shouldn't be what you care about.  That is between the moderators and them only.  If we could just accept our own mistakes for what they are, question OURSELVES more, work to change our own mannerisms, and not worry about others' misconduct, why would it even matter if there was a double standard being applied or not?

 You can't stop people from feeling and caring about what others say. It's one of the reasons we have a notify button.
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StoneRhino

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Re: Re: Goodbye
« Reply #49 on: 22 October 2012, 13:26:33 »
Correct me if this paraphrasing is incorrect: Your opinion is that the moderators are not doing their jobs adequately because you perceive that they allow certain posters to break the rules more than you.

I would have to suggest that your paraphrasing is completely incorrect, of course he can say so if I am wrong. When people are allowed to say X 10 different times without a moderator blowing up their post, without warning, or even banning those that say X 10 times, then why should anyone expect saying X is an offense? It is setting a precedence for the use of the word X on the forum. While the rules suggest saying X is wrong, the moderators are the enforcers of those rules. If the enforcers are not hammering people for saying X then they create that precedence of X no longer being an offense. This is similar to articles we see online every so often that poke fun at outdated laws in different states regarding the proper use of sheep, or where you can crank start your auto carriage.

If the enforcers were to mete out punishment for the use of the word X then others will see such. This sends the message that X is not a word to be used or else. People that see the specific rules being enforced will tend to avoid going against those rules for the most part. They will do so because they do not want to cause a problem, even if they are thinking "X you all!!!" at times.

When people see that sometimes you can say X all day long and not get punished, but at other times you might thing x and get hammered for it, people will start to question things. If they start to question such they will start to see patterns of unfairly applied rules where certain individuals can say X 10 times without a peep from a mod and oh so sensitive readers, but when they say x they have 10 mods on them like flies on a pile of well you know on a warm summer's day. How much is it perception, how much of it fact matters not so long as there is at least one good example and one bad example.

In order to avoid such, and to avoid the negative feelings that lead to diminished use of the forum, diminished feelings regarding those behind the forum one needs to make sure to enforce the rules fairly.

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Re: Re: Goodbye
« Reply #50 on: 22 October 2012, 13:38:01 »
I would have to suggest that your paraphrasing is completely incorrect, of course he can say so if I am wrong. When people are allowed to say X 10 different times without a moderator blowing up their post, without warning, or even banning those that say X 10 times, then why should anyone expect saying X is an offense? It is setting a precedence for the use of the word X on the forum. While the rules suggest saying X is wrong, the moderators are the enforcers of those rules. If the enforcers are not hammering people for saying X then they create that precedence of X no longer being an offense. This is similar to articles we see online every so often that poke fun at outdated laws in different states regarding the proper use of sheep, or where you can crank start your auto carriage.

If the enforcers were to mete out punishment for the use of the word X then others will see such. This sends the message that X is not a word to be used or else. People that see the specific rules being enforced will tend to avoid going against those rules for the most part. They will do so because they do not want to cause a problem, even if they are thinking "X you all!!!" at times.

When people see that sometimes you can say X all day long and not get punished, but at other times you might thing x and get hammered for it, people will start to question things. If they start to question such they will start to see patterns of unfairly applied rules where certain individuals can say X 10 times without a peep from a mod and oh so sensitive readers, but when they say x they have 10 mods on them like flies on a pile of well you know on a warm summer's day. How much is it perception, how much of it fact matters not so long as there is at least one good example and one bad example.

In order to avoid such, and to avoid the negative feelings that lead to diminished use of the forum, diminished feelings regarding those behind the forum one needs to make sure to enforce the rules fairly.

Which is why computers make so effective moderators.  Word X is word X is always word X.  Nobody has to have any sort of interpretation.  Nobody ever misinterprets what somebody else is saying.  We always convey the exact meaning of everything we say.   
The above means exactly what it says, literally.
Except the above means exactly the opposite of what it says.

Moderating is a pain in the rear, it's NOT an exact science, and in return they get next to nothing (depending on the value you place on a few pats on the back versus the few scorn). 
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Aokarasu

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Re: Re: Goodbye
« Reply #51 on: 22 October 2012, 13:44:40 »
My point is that the moderation of other forum users' posts shouldn't be what you care about.  That is between the moderators and them only.  If we could just accept our own mistakes for what they are, question OURSELVES more, work to change our own mannerisms, and not worry about others' misconduct, why would it even matter if there was a double standard being applied or not?

There's nothing wrong at all with requesting some consistency in rules/regulations application; it tends to keep folks a bit more at ease if they have a "warm fuzzy" about the police/mods/bosses/etc.

That being said, your point does have some validity, but it doesn't help with forum members' perception that there's a bit too much "wiggle room" for some members and decidedly less for others.

P.S.: For clarification, I do not have that perception, but acknowledge others' perceptions/experiences are different than mine.

Youngblood

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Re: Re: Goodbye
« Reply #52 on: 22 October 2012, 14:47:31 »
Okay, I'm going to leave my point the way it is and step over here to attempt to address the consistency issue.

Perhaps, just maybe, certain posters on these boards receive special attention for past transgressions with regards to violating the forum rules when they have OR have not been enforced properly?

Kind of like going 7 miles per hour over the speed limit with no previous misdemeanor driving record...compared to going 7 miles per hour over the speed limit with a record of repeated speed tickets, license revocations, arrests, etc.

Whether or not there is a personal grudge involved in that kind of behavior is your conclusion to make.

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Re: Re: Goodbye
« Reply #53 on: 22 October 2012, 15:26:01 »
FTR, I received a warning about one of my posts that was not subsequently deleted.  I deserved the warning (and probably did for other posts, but that's my opinion), but they didn't erase my post.

Youngblood

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Re: Re: Goodbye
« Reply #54 on: 22 October 2012, 15:28:11 »
You can't stop people from feeling and caring about what others say. It's one of the reasons we have a notify button.

The Notify button is there to notify the mods that you believe there may be an issue that requires their attention.  After they are notified, that is all you can do.  Whatever effects come afterwards is up to one's own humility to accept.

Of course, it helps to have communication in order to understand WHAT or WHY some sort of punishment was meted out or not, but often that is super-duper confidential information to begin with, and release of such information is more the exception than the norm.

Building mistrust or a grudge against the people who (were appointed to try their hardest to!) see to issues brought up on the boards does not appear to be the right way to enjoy forum posting.
« Last Edit: 22 October 2012, 15:29:57 by Youngblood »

Aokarasu

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Re: Re: Goodbye
« Reply #55 on: 22 October 2012, 15:42:08 »
Building mistrust or a grudge against the people who (were appointed to try their hardest to!) see to issues brought up on the boards does not appear to be the right way to enjoy forum posting.

While I have never been a forum mod (beyond having admin privileges on my STO fleet's web page/forums), I was a first line supervisor for many years in the military. Believe me when I say I know that if those you have authority over don't have the perception you are consistent in how you handle circumstances, you're pooched. Yes, they will obey you because they have to, but they won't respect you at all. As the saying goes, "I respect the stripes because I have to, but that's as far as it goes."

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Re: Re: Goodbye
« Reply #56 on: 22 October 2012, 15:51:03 »
The Notify button is there to notify the mods that you believe there may be an issue that requires their attention.  After they are notified, that is all you can do.  Whatever effects come afterwards is up to one's own humility to accept.

Of course, it helps to have communication in order to understand WHAT or WHY some sort of punishment was meted out or not, but often that is super-duper confidential information to begin with, and release of such information is more the exception than the norm.

Building mistrust or a grudge against the people who (were appointed to try their hardest to!) see to issues brought up on the boards does not appear to be the right way to enjoy forum posting.

Your policy has a debilitating, fatal flaw. This is a company. Their profits depend on things like customer feedback and meeting consumer needs. If the customer isn't satisfied, they pull a ColBosch and leave entirely. Considering BattleTech has (at Herb's estimate) less than 10,000 (re.: a Battlechat estimate) Battletech players worldwide, even 1 person is a big number.

So your "shut up and take it" advice means people shouldn't give customer feedback. Ever. If you don't like it, just silently stop playing and hopefully the company guesses what the problem was before it folds.

No thanks. :)
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Re: Re: Goodbye
« Reply #57 on: 22 October 2012, 16:44:58 »
Conversely, they can't afford to let a toxic old timer stick around and drive off new fans. Obviously a balance must be struck somewhere in the middle.
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Re: Re: Goodbye
« Reply #58 on: 22 October 2012, 16:45:25 »
Building mistrust or a grudge against the people who (were appointed to try their hardest to!) see to issues brought up on the boards does not appear to be the right way to enjoy forum posting.

I may not be seeing it exactly (perception thing) but as I was reading the thread I don't believe this is the intention of anyone that has posted.   

the concern a few are mentioning is more along the lines of: (as I see it)

so and so posted x and I see the post still up (insert time later) even after reporting it.
when I posted x I was warned and (action taken) occured

so why is it ok for so and so to say ... and not for me to say the same thing?

basically not necesserally saying that the mods are bad, but that there is a perceived inconsistancy on how some of the rules are enforced in some cases. and the belief that the rules should be "the rules" so if I got slapped for violation of rule .... then anyone else that violates the same rule should get slapped as well

TigerShark

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Re: Re: Goodbye
« Reply #59 on: 22 October 2012, 16:50:11 »
Conversely, they can't afford to let a toxic old timer stick around and drive off new fans. Obviously a balance must be struck somewhere in the middle.

Absolutely. I'm not trying to be entirely negative. I believe the rules have their place here as well and consistently abusive posters must be dealt with.

My argument is that the rules themselves are a bit stifling and need to be reviewed. On top of that, a consistent, absolute standard must exist for enforcing the rule. Obviously mods can't see everything, but what one sees should be equal to the next. "Being rude" or another such vague statement is just way too arbitrary a standard to ban someone or remove a post.
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