Author Topic: Creating Serednya Slaviya's military, part the second  (Read 22876 times)

ANS Kamas P81

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Creating Serednya Slaviya's military, part the second
« on: 11 March 2023, 00:33:35 »
There's C-mags that work fine, it's just that the chances of an unreliable one are known to be pretty high.  They're not all bad, just enough to make them an iffy choice in large numbers. 

I agree with F16 about the LMG/Automatic Rifle choice by the Marines.  To me the role calls for a belt-fed, something with deep ammunition reserves that can keep calling down bursts with long gaps between reloading.  Something accurate, as well, with tight groups that can be used on a point target as well; it's why I like the Ultimax 100.  The constant-recoil system in that does a fine job of reducing kick since the bolt isn't impacting the receiver, and it stays on target better.  That it's the weight of an assault rifle is just gravy; less gun weight means more ammo being carried.

Granted, one point in favor of the IAR is the weight, 9 pounds vs 22 pounds for the M249.  That's probably being reinvested into ammunition, so the overall load doesn't change (fifteen pounds for 22 magazines) as far as weight goes.  Another point of favor is that, with everyone being issued M27 IARs, anyone can operate in the squad automatic weapon role.  So there's some good out of this, despite the downsides.

All right, I'll put in a third mortar tube in the weapons company.  Including attachments, that brings my company to 203, which is pretty big compared to the Army's light infantry company.  Upside, I have 50% more rifle teams than the light infantry company; downside I have 50% less heavy weapons with the missiles and machine guns pushed to company level instead of platoon.

Yeah, the drone prices...something like the Black Hornet Nano (pictured)



It lasts 20 minutes and has three cameras, and two of those, a control unit, and a charging unit costs between forty and sixty thousand bucks.  That's just insane compared to the price of civilian drones; all I want is something with an phone camera or two on it to send back video to a ground station.  I don't care if it's smartphone operated, I'm not looking for anything fancy.

At least the BMP-3 has its fuel tanks in a more logical place than the rear doors.  It just strikes me as a light tank, and maybe a decent recon/counter-recon vehicle with its low profile and its firepower.  I'd push it into that role and see how well it did myself, out of sheer curiosity.  Forget carrying infantry, that thing's out there to hunt anything smaller than an MBT - and with its ATGMs, it can do that job too.  Though I'll admit I think the 30mm autocannon is superfluous between the 100mm and the machine gun; get rid of your infantry and load that extra space up with ammo for the 100mm.

A look at Wikipedia brings up a weird variant, the BT-3F with fourteen infantry onboard.  Where the hell do they stick them?  Even without the turret assembly (only an RWS) I can't imagine there's enough room for seven more troops in the thing.  Bigger on the inside indeed; Slavic Space Magic strikes again.

I always liked the Stoner 63 and its modularity; it's just an old long-gone weapons system that has spiritual children in things like the Steyr AUG.  Which I admit is something I'm still considering for the mechanized troops; it's got the same modularity and multipurposeness as the Stoner, and feeds M16 magazines just like the modified Beryls do.

The AUG has its HBAR and bipod configuration for a magazine-fed automatic weapon - it's not belt-fed, so it runs into the same short endurance problem the M27 IAR does.  It wouldn't be a real weight savings, either, the Ultimax 100 only weighs 11 pounds.  I think I'll stick with Beryls, and just give the mechanized infantry side-folding stocks to make their rifles more compact.

Cannonshop, you're right on the needs of a military service - the tricky part is balancing where "adequate" comes in.  There's the Heinlein aphorism that the most expensive thing in the world is a second-best military.  I'm just not sure I can afford being anything other than third-rate...

I wonder how much ammo is being carried by my rifle teams, especially with everyone carrying a spare drum for the LMG gunner and probably a spare RPG rocket as well...plus however many magazines they're issued.  My mechanized infantry has the BTR to carry extra gear with, so I imagine they're hauling around a lot.  I suppose a "standard load" would be six rifle magazines, two thrown grenades, two launched grenades, a drum for the LMG, and a rocket for the RPG.  Give that to everyone in the team, mechanized or light, and load up the BTR-80 with extra party favors for its infantry.
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glitterboy2098

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Re: Creating Serednya Slaviya's military, part the second
« Reply #1 on: 11 March 2023, 00:46:18 »

A look at Wikipedia brings up a weird variant, the BT-3F with fourteen infantry onboard.  Where the hell do they stick them?  Even without the turret assembly (only an RWS) I can't imagine there's enough room for seven more troops in the thing.  Bigger on the inside indeed; Slavic Space Magic strikes again.
it sacrifices the turret for an enlarged and taller passenger compartment. though i suspect that 14 is assuming a degree of packing that wouldn't be normal for prolonged field ops.


chanman

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Re: Creating Serednya Slaviya's military, part the second
« Reply #2 on: 11 March 2023, 01:05:19 »
There's C-mags that work fine, it's just that the chances of an unreliable one are known to be pretty high.  They're not all bad, just enough to make them an iffy choice in large numbers. 

I agree with F16 about the LMG/Automatic Rifle choice by the Marines.  To me the role calls for a belt-fed, something with deep ammunition reserves that can keep calling down bursts with long gaps between reloading.  Something accurate, as well, with tight groups that can be used on a point target as well; it's why I like the Ultimax 100.  The constant-recoil system in that does a fine job of reducing kick since the bolt isn't impacting the receiver, and it stays on target better.  That it's the weight of an assault rifle is just gravy; less gun weight means more ammo being carried.

Granted, one point in favor of the IAR is the weight, 9 pounds vs 22 pounds for the M249.  That's probably being reinvested into ammunition, so the overall load doesn't change (fifteen pounds for 22 magazines) as far as weight goes.  Another point of favor is that, with everyone being issued M27 IARs, anyone can operate in the squad automatic weapon role.  So there's some good out of this, despite the downsides.

All right, I'll put in a third mortar tube in the weapons company.  Including attachments, that brings my company to 203, which is pretty big compared to the Army's light infantry company.  Upside, I have 50% more rifle teams than the light infantry company; downside I have 50% less heavy weapons with the missiles and machine guns pushed to company level instead of platoon.

Yeah, the drone prices...something like the Black Hornet Nano (pictured)



It lasts 20 minutes and has three cameras, and two of those, a control unit, and a charging unit costs between forty and sixty thousand bucks.  That's just insane compared to the price of civilian drones; all I want is something with an phone camera or two on it to send back video to a ground station.  I don't care if it's smartphone operated, I'm not looking for anything fancy.

At least the BMP-3 has its fuel tanks in a more logical place than the rear doors.  It just strikes me as a light tank, and maybe a decent recon/counter-recon vehicle with its low profile and its firepower.  I'd push it into that role and see how well it did myself, out of sheer curiosity.  Forget carrying infantry, that thing's out there to hunt anything smaller than an MBT - and with its ATGMs, it can do that job too.  Though I'll admit I think the 30mm autocannon is superfluous between the 100mm and the machine gun; get rid of your infantry and load that extra space up with ammo for the 100mm.

A look at Wikipedia brings up a weird variant, the BT-3F with fourteen infantry onboard.  Where the hell do they stick them?  Even without the turret assembly (only an RWS) I can't imagine there's enough room for seven more troops in the thing.  Bigger on the inside indeed; Slavic Space Magic strikes again.

I always liked the Stoner 63 and its modularity; it's just an old long-gone weapons system that has spiritual children in things like the Steyr AUG.  Which I admit is something I'm still considering for the mechanized troops; it's got the same modularity and multipurposeness as the Stoner, and feeds M16 magazines just like the modified Beryls do.

The AUG has its HBAR and bipod configuration for a magazine-fed automatic weapon - it's not belt-fed, so it runs into the same short endurance problem the M27 IAR does.  It wouldn't be a real weight savings, either, the Ultimax 100 only weighs 11 pounds.  I think I'll stick with Beryls, and just give the mechanized infantry side-folding stocks to make their rifles more compact.

Cannonshop, you're right on the needs of a military service - the tricky part is balancing where "adequate" comes in.  There's the Heinlein aphorism that the most expensive thing in the world is a second-best military.  I'm just not sure I can afford being anything other than third-rate...

I wonder how much ammo is being carried by my rifle teams, especially with everyone carrying a spare drum for the LMG gunner and probably a spare RPG rocket as well...plus however many magazines they're issued.  My mechanized infantry has the BTR to carry extra gear with, so I imagine they're hauling around a lot.  I suppose a "standard load" would be six rifle magazines, two thrown grenades, two launched grenades, a drum for the LMG, and a rocket for the RPG.  Give that to everyone in the team, mechanized or light, and load up the BTR-80 with extra party favors for its infantry.

C-mags are also weirdly shaped for carriage. Box magazines are thin in one dimension and being mostly rectangular makes them easy to fit in pouches. I feel like there's gotta be a different doctrinal jump if every soldier is an automatic rifleman. That allows (and requires thanks to things like cooling) members to switch off as the one laying down heavy fire. You know, like the shootout in Heat!


ANS Kamas P81

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Re: Creating Serednya Slaviya's military, part the second
« Reply #3 on: 11 March 2023, 01:10:35 »
Mechanized Infantry Platoon:

BTR 1
  BTR Gunner (FB Mini Beryl)
  BTR Driver (FB Mini Beryl)
  BTR Commander/Platoon Commander (CZ-75)
  Squad Leader (FB Beryl + Pallad)
  ATGM Operator (MILAN, CZ-75)
  ATGM Assistant (FB Beryl)
  ATGM Operator (MILAN, CZ-75)
  ATGM Assistant (FB Beryl)
  Machine Gun Operator (MG 42/59, CZ-75)
  Machine Gun Assistant (FB Beryl)

BTR 2
  BTR Gunner (FB Mini Beryl)
  BTR Driver (FB Mini Beryl)
  BTR Commander/Platoon Sergeant (FB Beryl)
  Squad Leader (FB Beryl + Pallad)
  Automatic Rifleman (Ultimax 100, CZ-75)
  Anti-tank Grenadier (RPG-7, FB Beryl)
  Marksman (FR F2)
  Rifleman (FB Beryl)
  Rifleman (FB Beryl)
  Drone Operator (FB Beryl)

BTR 3
  BTR Gunner (FB Mini Beryl)
  BTR Driver (FB Mini Beryl)
  BTR Commander (FB Mini Beryl)
  Squad Leader (FB Beryl + Pallad)
  Automatic Rifleman (Ultimax 100, CZ-75)
  Anti-tank Grenadier (RPG-7, FB Beryl)
  Marksman (FR F2)
  Rifleman (FB Beryl)
  Rifleman (FB Beryl)
  Medic (CZ-75) (attached)

BTR 4
  BTR Gunner (FB Mini Beryl)
  BTR Driver (FB Mini Beryl)
  BTR Commander (FB Mini Beryl)
  Squad Leader (FB Beryl + Pallad)
  Automatic Rifleman (Ultimax 100, CZ-75)
  Anti-tank Grenadier (RPG-7, FB Beryl)
  Marksman (FR F2)
  Rifleman (FB Beryl)
  Rifleman (FB Beryl)
  Forward Observer (FB Beryl) (attached)

The platoon's total firepower is one MG 42/59, two MILANs, three RPG-7s, three Ultimax 100s, three FR F2s, ten Mini Beryls, nineteen Beryls, and eight CZ-75s.  Add in the four BTR-80s and their heavy machine guns, and it's...not great, but effective enough.

Company level assets...the American mechanized infantry company has two Bradleys which are pretty empty with just the vehicle crews and the company leadership mixed into them.  I suppose I'll do the same with more BTR-80s.  One carries the Company Commander, the other the Company XO.  Two LMVs instead of uparmored HMMWVs, one of which carries the First Sergeant and the other a technical support NCO and a radiotelephone operator.  Three platoons of mechanized infantry give the company a total of fourteen BTR-80s in a 2+4+4+4 organization. 

I never saw Heat, though the idea of swapping in IARs putting down suppressive bursts where everyone's operating as an SAW replacement does make for sound tactics.  It also means you don't lose your SAW if the operator gets taken out, you just gotta raid your casualties for magazines.
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ANS Kamas P81

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Re: Creating Serednya Slaviya's military, part the second
« Reply #4 on: 11 March 2023, 02:13:35 »
Light Cavalry Squadron

Squadron Command
  B1 Centauro
  VAB VCI
Mortar Platoon
  4x VAB 120mm Mortar
Air Defense Platoon
  4 SA-9 Gaskin
  4 VAB VCI w/ 8 SAM teams
Chemical Platoon
  1 KamAZ 4350 4x4 Truck
Drone Platoon
  2 KamAZ 4350 4x4 Truck
Medical Platoon
  6 VAB Ambulance
Supply Platoon
  10 KamAZ 5350 6x6 Truck
Maintenance Platoon
  3 MAN KAT 1
  4 VAB
Motor Pool
  20 UAZ 469
  12 KamAZ 4350 4x4 Truck
Cavalry Troop x3
  B1 Centauro
  VAB (HQ Vehicle)
  2x VAB (120mm mortar)
  4x Iveco LMV
  Platoon x3
    VAB x4
      Rifle Team
      Scout Team
    Iveco LMV x2
      Scout Team
    B1 Centauro x2
    VAB (82mm mortar)
Gun Troop
  B1 Centauro x2
  Platoon x3
    B1 Centauro x4
Artillery Battery
  CAESAR x6

The idea for the Cavalry Platoon is that the VABs all carry one four-man Rifle Team with them - the same organization as in the Light Infantry.  In addition, a two-man scout team is carried in the VAB as well, as well as a two-man scout team in the LMVs.  This way I have the "optimum" six scout teams, plus a gun element with the B1 Centauros and a single mortar for platoon fire support.  That does bring me to around forty-four personnel in the platoon, but a third of that is vehicle crews.  I was originally thinking of going with the seven-man rifle teams from the mechanized infantry, but the platoon size was fifty-six and that was just too big.  The platoon leader's already coordinating a lot of vehicles, I don't need to overload them.

So 35 B1 Centauros between the three cavalry troops and the gun troop.

I decided to shuffle up the operations and procurement budget; that cuts my operating expenses by half down to 41.9 million and lets me spend 83.8 million on Goodies - hence the six CAESAR artillery pieces in the cavalry squadron.  The rest of the army is going to make do with two battalions of 122mm 2S1 Gvozdikas and three battalions of BM-21 Grads, but those are still useful.

The Recon Company assigned to each brigade is going to be mixed.  The Heavy Brigade gets a more western style mix of ten EBRC Jaguar reconnaissance vehicles and four PT-91 tanks in a 2+4+4+4T organization.  The Light Brigades' recon companies are a company HQ of one BMP-1, a platoon of three BMP-1s, a platoon of four BRDM-2s, and a motorcycle section of three scouts on motorcycles.  That follows the 1991 organization of a Soviet reconnaissance company.

The tank company of the combined arms battalion, meanwhile, gets fourteen PT-91s, which makes for three tank companies spread out over three CABs and a total of forty-two PT-91s, plus the four in the Heavy Brigade's recon company, gives me a total of forty-six MBTs in my entire army.

At its highest levels, this is the current organization of the Sere-Slav military:

Heavy Brigade
  Headquarters Company
  Light Cavalry Squadron
  Combined Arms Infantry Battalion
  Combined Arms Infantry Battalion
  Combined Arms Infantry Battalion
  Artillery Battalion
  Artillery Battalion
  Logistics Battalion
  Reconnaissance Company
  Signals Company
  Engineer Company
Light Brigade
  Headquarters Company
  Light Cavalry Squadron
  Light Infantry Battalion
  Light Infantry Battalion
  Artillery Battalion
  Artillery Battalion
  Logistics Battalion
  Reconnaissance Company
  Signals Company
  Engineer Company
Light Brigade
  Headquarters Company
  Light Cavalry Squadron
  Light Infantry Battalion
  Light Infantry Battalion
  Artillery Battalion
  Artillery Battalion
  Logistics Battalion
  Reconnaissance Company
  Signals Company
  Engineer Company
« Last Edit: 11 March 2023, 05:57:24 by ANS Kamas P81 »
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Cannonshop

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Re: Creating Serednya Slaviya's military, part the second
« Reply #5 on: 11 March 2023, 02:19:55 »

Cannonshop, you're right on the needs of a military service - the tricky part is balancing where "adequate" comes in.  There's the Heinlein aphorism that the most expensive thing in the world is a second-best military.  I'm just not sure I can afford being anything other than third-rate...


"Second best" typically revolves not around the shooty-bits, but around the intangibles.  Things like training, doctrinal structure, morale, and logistics play more of a role than hardware does.  This was really underlined in the 1956 and 1967 (and again in 1973) conflicts in israel.  The Israeli military was running scavenged, second-hand, and mostly second-rate hardware, had a terrain disadvantage, and in two of those conflicts, they were under embargoes, and were grotesquely outnumbered.

When you're stuffing 1950s french guns into 1940s American Shermans to fight T-55's and T-72s, it's not the hardware that's going to win it, it's the training, commitment, and tactics.

The biggest things to encourage in your forces isn't new toys, it's things like "Internal communication" and "Pass knowledge widely" and "we cannot afford for any single man to be irreplaceable".

Those are the factors that LED to Arab defeats against Israel in four wars and counting-the culture, not the hardware.  Internal pecking orders that render infomation into little corners leading to bad intel, bad planning, bad execution and bad results.

Even while having lavish equipment budgets versus a scrappy smaller state with shitty terrain and a tiny population.

Things like development of a robust system of NCOs, encouraging initiative among your Officer cadre (including junior officers), extensive, frequent, and objective field skills training and re-training, training and re-certification, review and demanding absolute honesty with no sugar-coating in reports and AARS is how you get a first class military. 

At that point, the only things that can foul you up, is if the guns genuinely don't go 'bang' when you pull the triggers or the trucks can't move under their own power.  So within that military culture I'm talking about, you need to have a logistics branch that is as close to immune to corruption as you can reasonably achieve, and in that military culture you need to develop a disdain for things like nepotism and favoritism-these have to be something your men themselves consider in the same light as seeing a grown man intentionally shit his own pants rather than use the toilet.

IOW the concepts have to be rendered so disgusting that rumours of them can kill a career outright. THAT is how you get a first class military.  Back in the 1990s we were getting close to that thanks to a lot of senior leaders who remembered the dogshit condition things were in during the 1970s and didn't want to EVER go back to that.

Hardware...is just hardware.  as I said before, a first class unit armed with Mausers or even Moisin Nagants will kick the dogsnot out of a third rate bunch of hosers with the latest-and-greatest assault rifles...and probably collect the assault rifles as trophies.   Your keys are a culture of proficiency and integrity, get one of those going and you can be running early cold war hardware and still stomp someone many times your size who doesn't have that institutional culture.
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glitterboy2098

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Re: Creating Serednya Slaviya's military, part the second
« Reply #6 on: 11 March 2023, 02:31:57 »
pretty much. the training and structure of the military, its cohesion, is going to be the main important thing. a well trained military can win a war using obsolete gear, but it doesn't matter how well equipped a force is if it can't pour water out of a boot with the instructions printed on the heel. as we've been seeing a lot in the middle east the last few decades. (as well as in a currently ongoing european conflict i won't mention by name)

i'm more familiar with the principle as it applies to pre-modern armies, but some of the principles are the same regardless of the technology.
« Last Edit: 11 March 2023, 02:34:38 by glitterboy2098 »

Cannonshop

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Re: Creating Serednya Slaviya's military, part the second
« Reply #7 on: 11 March 2023, 02:45:45 »
pretty much. the training and structure of the military, its cohesion, is going to be the main important thing. a well trained military can win a war using obsolete gear, but it doesn't matter how well equipped a force is if it can't pour water out of a boot with the instructions printed on the heel. as we've been seeing a lot in the middle east the last few decades. (as well as in a currently ongoing european conflict i won't mention by name)

i'm more familiar with the principle as it applies to pre-modern armies, but some of the principles are the same regardless of the technology.

some things are principles, because they're principles.  Concepts of discipline, cohesion, and integrity are valued in societies because they are useful things, not merely because they're nice.
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ANS Kamas P81

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Re: Creating Serednya Slaviya's military, part the second
« Reply #8 on: 11 March 2023, 02:51:47 »
That's going to be a pretty intense transformation coming out of a Soviet system, and the corruption and nepotism rife within those elements.  It also requires a government leading that military to see the same problems in the same pants-shitting light.  Ukraine has pulled it off in the eight years from the initial invasion by the Russians to the start of the current war, and they've got a well-motivated and honestly pretty damned effective armed forces.

I figure there was a lot of looking close at the Americans after the Gulf War, and watching Poland switch from a Soviet model to a modern military and following suit as best they could.  There was probably a LOT of pushback, the power vacuums that happened after the fall of the USSR and the dissolution of the Warsaw Pact likely saw an attempt at an oligarchy in the face of a major reform push.  Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if things broke out into a low-level civil war for the future of the country in the early 1990s, followed by a rebuilding period.

I admit I kind of like that history, so I'm going to roll with it - UN intervention was probably quick, and Poland sent a sizeable contingent of peacekeepers - hence why there's such a friendly relationship with Serednya Slaviya's western neighbor.  Say 1993-1994, with fighting over that winter and spring before the UN arrived to calm things down.  Add a few diehard reformers in the government with a Euromaidan-style popular uprising against the oligarchs, and you have a transformed country in its infancy.  Add in an Elliot Nesschenko who goes on an anticorruption crusade, I suppose.

That gives me a good reason why they're so aligned with the West, and why Poland plays so heavily in my choices for things.  Any suggestions or thoughts on the post-Soviet history?
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glitterboy2098

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Re: Creating Serednya Slaviya's military, part the second
« Reply #9 on: 11 March 2023, 03:22:10 »
and that tendancy towards corruption within the wider nation is going to be mirrored in the military as well. military forces tend to mirror the peacetime social conditions.. a society based around tribal allegiences is going to have a military that divides itself along tribal lines, no matter what doctrines and traditions it attempts to copy. (you can see this a lot in african nations, but also to a degree in the middle eastern ones. and not just along ethnic lines, but also within tribe and clan within a given ethnicity.) in a society where graft and corruption is common, the military is going to be rife with it as well. possibly worse off, since they'll have access to not only positions of power but also a lot of valuable items that can be sold or traded.

so yeah, you'd need a pretty hardline anti-corruption minded government.

Daryk

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Re: Creating Serednya Slaviya's military, part the second
« Reply #10 on: 11 March 2023, 05:44:09 »
Is it just me, or is the Heavy Brigade short an artillery battalion? ???

Also, that's a ridiculous price for a drone system.  Commercial is totally the way to go there.

ANS Kamas P81

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Re: Creating Serednya Slaviya's military, part the second
« Reply #11 on: 11 March 2023, 05:56:15 »
The trick with taking on endemic corruption in a system like that is having a reliable system it has to answer to.  Capone was taken down by the IRS, for example; I wonder how the Warsaw Pact states managed it without falling into a corrupt oligarchy like other countries did.  Though discussing that with real states probably runs afoul of Rule 4, so...I'll go with Serednya Slaviya's national police having a cabal of officials that went after the various heads of the system, sometimes in ways that wouldn't fly under normal laws.  Someone had to be Batman taking down the crime families, and going all the way on making sure they were put out of business.  The occasional assassination and so on, you'd need a strongman in power to make it stick.  Someone like Cincinnatus, who would assume power for the duration of the emergency, then walk away once a proper government was formed.

So yeah, the early-mid 90s were a rough time for Serednya Slaviya, but they got through it in time to join NATO in '99, and start their military reorganization and rebuilding that year as well. 

The artillery battalion is missing, yes.  I'll fix that.  I was originally going to have it as the cavalry regiment absorbing one tube battalion of artillery, but that was before I broke it up into one squadron in each brigade.  That way each brigade gets one battalion of tube and one battalion of rocket artillery, while the cavalry squadron brings its own six-gun battery to the field as well.

I also fixed the three battalions in the Heavy Brigade, they're supposed to be combined arms BNs with one company of tanks and two companies of infantry in each.
« Last Edit: 11 March 2023, 05:58:22 by ANS Kamas P81 »
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Daryk

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Re: Creating Serednya Slaviya's military, part the second
« Reply #12 on: 11 March 2023, 06:08:48 »
Glad it wasn't just me! :)

Failure16

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Re: Creating Serednya Slaviya's military, part the second
« Reply #13 on: 11 March 2023, 18:23:23 »
...you'd need a strongman in power to make it stick.  Someone like Cincinnatus, who would assume power for the duration of the emergency, then walk away once a proper government was formed.

Every nation or state needs a Cincinnatus. The problem is that most with his abilities seem to lack his mental fortitude, personal integrity and, commitment to his own stated/internal ideals.
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At 17, I had a better dream; now I'm 33, and it isn't me.      That one will die before he gets there.       Will you tell me when it's done?
But I'd think of something better if I could
                           --E. Tonra                                                      --C. Love
--A. Duritz

Daryk

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Re: Creating Serednya Slaviya's military, part the second
« Reply #14 on: 11 March 2023, 18:24:44 »
Sadly, his American followers were well off his rails when they tried...  :-\

Failure16

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Re: Creating Serednya Slaviya's military, part the second
« Reply #15 on: 11 March 2023, 19:54:14 »
Sadly, his American followers were well off his rails when they tried...  :-\

"They broke the mold after him," as they say.
Thought I might get a rocket ride when I was a child.          We are the wild youth,                                And through villages of ether
But it was a lie, that I told myself                                          Chasing visions of our futures.                   Oh, my crucifixion comes
When I needed something good.                                         One day we'll reveal the truth,                    Will you sing my hallelujah?
At 17, I had a better dream; now I'm 33, and it isn't me.      That one will die before he gets there.       Will you tell me when it's done?
But I'd think of something better if I could
                           --E. Tonra                                                      --C. Love
--A. Duritz

ANS Kamas P81

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Re: Creating Serednya Slaviya's military, part the second
« Reply #16 on: 11 March 2023, 23:19:15 »
Integrity as part of the state as well as that of the military, that's the key.  It's a generational thing, not something easily acquired except by fear.  You need to start learning it as a child for it to really be a thing.

That said, I'd imagine there's been enough propaganda put out by the government to encourage that mindset.  Give Elliot Nesschenko a movie series, make a heroic film or two about Cincinnatuski, and get the ball rolling that way.  Add in crackdowns on the black market and a strong JAG office.  Considering the military's only 12,643 personnel between the Air Force and the Land Force, I can't imagine it'd be larger than a couple dozen personnel at most and made of officers from both branches.

So looking over the Land Force brigade breakdown, I come up with nineteen battalions and twelve companies of troops.  With 11,500 in the army, that's an average of 525 per battalion and 125 per company.  Besides the listed organization, what else should I be adding in?  Anything I'm overlooking (like, say, a JAG corps) that would be staffed by military personnel?
Der Hölle Rache kocht in meinem Herzen,
Tod und Verzweiflung flammet um mich her!
Fühlt nicht durch dich Jadefalke Todesschmerzen,
So bist du meine Tochter nimmermehr!

chanman

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Re: Creating Serednya Slaviya's military, part the second
« Reply #17 on: 11 March 2023, 23:52:36 »
The trick with taking on endemic corruption in a system like that is having a reliable system it has to answer to.  Capone was taken down by the IRS, for example; I wonder how the Warsaw Pact states managed it without falling into a corrupt oligarchy like other countries did.  Though discussing that with real states probably runs afoul of Rule 4, so...I'll go with Serednya Slaviya's national police having a cabal of officials that went after the various heads of the system, sometimes in ways that wouldn't fly under normal laws.  Someone had to be Batman taking down the crime families, and going all the way on making sure they were put out of business.  The occasional assassination and so on, you'd need a strongman in power to make it stick.  Someone like Cincinnatus, who would assume power for the duration of the emergency, then walk away once a proper government was formed.

So yeah, the early-mid 90s were a rough time for Serednya Slaviya, but they got through it in time to join NATO in '99, and start their military reorganization and rebuilding that year as well. 

The artillery battalion is missing, yes.  I'll fix that.  I was originally going to have it as the cavalry regiment absorbing one tube battalion of artillery, but that was before I broke it up into one squadron in each brigade.  That way each brigade gets one battalion of tube and one battalion of rocket artillery, while the cavalry squadron brings its own six-gun battery to the field as well.

I also fixed the three battalions in the Heavy Brigade, they're supposed to be combined arms BNs with one company of tanks and two companies of infantry in each.

The real secret is that tackling systemic corruption is literally a revolutionary act. When you do that, you are dismantling and directly attacking the existing relationships of power and patronage that ties everyone together and the existing system that you are upsetting will fight back tooth-and-nail from both within and without. That is (literally!) someone's bread and butter that you are taking away from them.

The leaders of that effort need to be (basically literally) crusaders. Unhealthily motivated, disturbingly driven zealots. Unforgiving and merciless when they deem it suitable. They'll effectively be fighting an insurgency (against the incumbent powers) and a counter-insurgency (against reactionary and criminal elements) at the same time.

Divide and conquer. And stay away from unsecured windows in multi-story buildings.

ANS Kamas P81

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Re: Creating Serednya Slaviya's military, part the second
« Reply #18 on: 12 March 2023, 00:50:42 »
Yeah, the anti-corruption movement would need popular support as well as diehard leadership - and I wasn't kidding about going as far as assassinations, on both sides - the kind of endemic corruption that was likely present in the 1980s in the military and government may have been part of what led to a simmering civil war...maybe less that than a straight-up popular revolution against a corrupt government that was made of the remains of the soviet-era power structure.  Less an us-vs-them thing and more people-vs-government...probably started with a coup attempt by a cabal of midranking officers in the military to depose those above them, and spiraled into open conflict.

I gotta read up on the post-soviet coup-de-etats in Russia some more.
Der Hölle Rache kocht in meinem Herzen,
Tod und Verzweiflung flammet um mich her!
Fühlt nicht durch dich Jadefalke Todesschmerzen,
So bist du meine Tochter nimmermehr!

Daryk

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Re: Creating Serednya Slaviya's military, part the second
« Reply #19 on: 12 March 2023, 02:15:14 »
As for missing bits: MI, MPs, Counter-Intelligence, SigInt/Cyber, Civil Affairs, PSYOP, Mortuary Affairs... I'm sure there's more, but that's what I have off the top of my head.

Cannonshop

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Re: Creating Serednya Slaviya's military, part the second
« Reply #20 on: 12 March 2023, 04:12:56 »
Yeah, the anti-corruption movement would need popular support as well as diehard leadership - and I wasn't kidding about going as far as assassinations, on both sides - the kind of endemic corruption that was likely present in the 1980s in the military and government may have been part of what led to a simmering civil war...maybe less that than a straight-up popular revolution against a corrupt government that was made of the remains of the soviet-era power structure.  Less an us-vs-them thing and more people-vs-government...probably started with a coup attempt by a cabal of midranking officers in the military to depose those above them, and spiraled into open conflict.

I gotta read up on the post-soviet coup-de-etats in Russia some more.

The real secret is that tackling systemic corruption is literally a revolutionary act. When you do that, you are dismantling and directly attacking the existing relationships of power and patronage that ties everyone together and the existing system that you are upsetting will fight back tooth-and-nail from both within and without. That is (literally!) someone's bread and butter that you are taking away from them.

The leaders of that effort need to be (basically literally) crusaders. Unhealthily motivated, disturbingly driven zealots. Unforgiving and merciless when they deem it suitable. They'll effectively be fighting an insurgency (against the incumbent powers) and a counter-insurgency (against reactionary and criminal elements) at the same time.

Divide and conquer. And stay away from unsecured windows in multi-story buildings.

This here, is what makes it so hard to develop a first-class military despite in some cases (russia) CENTURIES of experience in military operations that OUGHT to inform people what not to do...(China had the same problem during the Opium War, and the Warlord period...)

The base problem with Corruption is that it's easy to fall into and punishes you for climbing out.
"If you have to ask permission, then it's no longer a Right, it has been turned into a Privilege-something that can be and will be taken from you when convenient."

ANS Kamas P81

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Re: Creating Serednya Slaviya's military, part the second
« Reply #21 on: 12 March 2023, 05:43:53 »
Hm...I can pull the second artillery battalion from each brigade to have troops to staff those.  One becomes an MP battalion, the other two break up to for, the Intelligence, Counter-Intel, Sigint/Cyber, Civil Affairs, PSYOP, and Mortuary companies.  That leaves me a couple extra companies for things I haven't accounted for yet.

There's a good book - Every Man A Tiger - that talks about the transformation of the Air Force from the post-Vietnam malaise of drugs and all kinds of systemic troubles into the competent, professional, and strong Air Force that slaughtered the Iraqi armed forces.  It came down to the right, bloody-minded determined mid- and upper-level commanders to force through operating and reforms and fire the right personnel, sometimes in large numbers.  And it took years of effort to accomplish, but they did it.

One of the big things the book mentioned was the instilling of personal pride in what each individual soldier did; things like making crews responsible for aircraft to the point of putting the chief's name on the plane as well.  It became personal to the individual airman, and the systemic changes brought about major results for performance and readiness and esprit de corps.  It's a good read, it goes in-depth on the kinds of mistakes made and the way plans worked out for the Gulf War in 1991.

Now granted that was just the problems in one branch of the army, but it's a blueprint for how to transform a suffering organization into something responsive and capable.  I can see General Horner being invited with a group of other NATO officers to examine the armed forces and give their opinions on the changes that need to be made, after the civil war and when the reformers finally wrested power away from the previous government.  They had the impetus for change, now they have a guiding hand. 

Time to read some Polish history.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Poland_(1989%E2%80%93present)

As far as adding in those other elements, I added a support brigade and lumped things together there.  Axed the second battalion of artillery, so the army is down to three battalions plus the tubes of the cavalry squadrons.

Heavy Brigade
  Headquarters Company
  Light Cavalry Squadron (B1 Centauro/VAB)
  Combined Arms Infantry Battalion (PT-91/BTR-80)
  Combined Arms Infantry Battalion (PT-91/BTR-80)
  Combined Arms Infantry Battalion (PT-91/BTR-80)
  Artillery Battalion (2S1 Gvozdika)
  Logistics Battalion
  Reconnaissance Company (PT-91/EBRC Jaguar)
  Signals Company
  Engineer Company
Light Brigade
  Headquarters Company
  Light Cavalry Squadron (BRDM-2 Malyutka/BTR-80)
  Light Infantry Battalion
  Light Infantry Battalion
  Artillery Battalion (BM-21 Grad)
  Logistics Battalion
  Reconnaissance Company (BMP-1/BRDM-2)
  Signals Company
  Engineer Company
Light Brigade
  Headquarters Company
  Light Cavalry Squadron (BRDM-2 Malyutka/BTR-80)
  Light Infantry Battalion
  Light Infantry Battalion
  Artillery Battalion (BM-21 Grad)
  Logistics Battalion
  Reconnaissance Company (BMP-1/BRDM-2)
  Signals Company
  Engineer Company
Support Brigade
  Military Police Battalion
  Intelligence Battalion
    Military Intelligence Company
    Counter-Intelligence Company
    Signals-Intelligence Company
  PSYOPs Company
  Civil Affairs Company
  Mortuary Affairs Company

I can always take one of the Combined Arms Battalions out of the Heavy Brigade and convert it into something else if there's other things I'm missing.  I admit the brigades are a little smaller than the norm, but so it goes; I'm a little disappointed in losing the extra artillery battalions but I need to fill out the rest of the service somehow and I can't increase the size of the army.
« Last Edit: 12 March 2023, 16:23:51 by ANS Kamas P81 »
Der Hölle Rache kocht in meinem Herzen,
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Fühlt nicht durch dich Jadefalke Todesschmerzen,
So bist du meine Tochter nimmermehr!

Daryk

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Re: Creating Serednya Slaviya's military, part the second
« Reply #22 on: 12 March 2023, 05:47:37 »
The PSYOP company shouldn't be part of the MI battalion...  8)

ANS Kamas P81

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Re: Creating Serednya Slaviya's military, part the second
« Reply #23 on: 12 March 2023, 06:22:07 »
I'd have thought they'd be in that same line of work, but okay.  Quick switch!

And reading up on things...Poland really didn't have much in the way of troubles mentioned in the article in transitioning to a free market economy and a democratic parliament.  The occasional corrupt official pops up, but they get removed from power and tried for their crimes, which seemed to be a pretty painless process.  Though, apparently things were repeatedly bad enough that the Central Anti-Corruption Bureau was formed and went hunting public officials; I suppose I'm going to do something similar but quite a bit earlier than the Poles did in 2006. 

So the proper constitution would be generated in 1996, and the Serednya Slaviyan CAB probably formed soon after in our country.
Der Hölle Rache kocht in meinem Herzen,
Tod und Verzweiflung flammet um mich her!
Fühlt nicht durch dich Jadefalke Todesschmerzen,
So bist du meine Tochter nimmermehr!

Daryk

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Re: Creating Serednya Slaviya's military, part the second
« Reply #24 on: 12 March 2023, 06:24:52 »
PSYOP troops are closer to CA than MI.  :)

ANS Kamas P81

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Re: Creating Serednya Slaviya's military, part the second
« Reply #25 on: 12 March 2023, 06:37:23 »
What do they do?
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Daryk

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Re: Creating Serednya Slaviya's military, part the second
« Reply #26 on: 12 March 2023, 06:41:31 »
Overtly inform audiences to persuade them to do (or not do) things to the commander's advantage.  It runs the gamut from "wash your hands" (public health) to "earn this reward for turning in insurgents" (counterinsurgency).  In Black Hawk Down, the helo with the speakers was a PSYOP bird.

ANS Kamas P81

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Re: Creating Serednya Slaviya's military, part the second
« Reply #27 on: 12 March 2023, 06:55:24 »
I need to watch BHD someday, lol.  Okay, that's kind of what I thought they did.  I'll still list them as separate from the intelligence though, since they are a kind of front operation getting out the messages that Serednya Slaviya's military wants to get out.
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Daryk

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Re: Creating Serednya Slaviya's military, part the second
« Reply #28 on: 12 March 2023, 07:30:15 »
Exactly that, but in a way different from Public Affairs.  :thumbsup:

ANS Kamas P81

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Re: Creating Serednya Slaviya's military, part the second
« Reply #29 on: 12 March 2023, 16:32:19 »
Made a change to the Cavalry Squadrons for the two Light Brigades; I've been going over finances again and there's really no way I can afford 105 Centauros and 120 VABs together.  So I decided to re-equip two of the cavalry squadrons with 9P133 Malyutka ATGM carriers, based on BRDM-2s, and trade their VABs for BTR-80s.  I'm focusing my technological improvements on the Heavy Brigade, and using legacy equipment in the two Light Brigades - though the Malyutkas came from Poland; they went from 418 such missile carriers in 1965 to 118 in 2004.  I'd be buying about 70-80 of them at a guess, so that totally fits into where some of them might have gone.  Granted, they'd need some refurbishment and whatever minor modernization can be crammed into the vehicles, but so be it.  At ten grand a missile it's an expensive option, but I can buy 150 missiles or one B1 Centauro.

Definitely does make for an interesting light cavalry force at this point...
Der Hölle Rache kocht in meinem Herzen,
Tod und Verzweiflung flammet um mich her!
Fühlt nicht durch dich Jadefalke Todesschmerzen,
So bist du meine Tochter nimmermehr!