Author Topic: Help Me Understand... Gargoyle Prime  (Read 12745 times)

cold1

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Re: Help Me Understand... Gargoyle Prime
« Reply #30 on: 02 December 2011, 16:18:54 »
Which is why you give it to the idiot in the Star, rather then somebody who would need a Real Mech to do Real Mech things.

Which goes back to my point... how is this thing a clan frontline omni?


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Re: Help Me Understand... Gargoyle Prime
« Reply #31 on: 02 December 2011, 17:04:38 »
Because when looking for the idiot in a Clan star, all of the above is a viable choice. :D They probably word it as a challenge. "You won a glorious victory for the Clan! Bet you can't cement your position as a ristar by doing it again in a Gargoyle..."
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Jellico

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Re: Help Me Understand... Gargoyle Prime
« Reply #32 on: 02 December 2011, 17:20:09 »
IMO the Gargoyle suffers from a bad primary configuration. The 'prime' always sets the mood for an omni, shows us what we can expect of this design. The fact that some alternate configurations are suboptimal as well, did not help it as well.

But there are some gems hidden in all the mud as well. Perhaps no diamonds but still nice.

Which goes back to my point... how is this thing a clan frontline omni?

Its the Prime because its the version the IS saw the most.
Now given we were never given a good explanation how the Clans rolled over the insane number of tank and infantry battalions available to the Inner Sphere is it any wonder the most popular Gargoyle is a tank and infantry killer?

markhall

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Re: Help Me Understand... Gargoyle Prime
« Reply #33 on: 02 December 2011, 18:25:05 »
Which goes back to my point... how is this thing a clan frontline omni?

Because it does not always have to be a Prime.

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chanman

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Re: Help Me Understand... Gargoyle Prime
« Reply #34 on: 02 December 2011, 20:29:26 »
Because when looking for the idiot in a Clan star, all of the above is a viable choice. :D They probably word it as a challenge. "You won a glorious victory for the Clan! Bet you can't cement your position as a ristar by doing it again in a Gargoyle..."

I imagine they have 4 combat omnis and 1 Gargoyle. After every battle, the lowest-scoring pilot of the 4 combat omnis is forced to switch off into the penalty box. I mean... Gargoyle Prime and provide support for the next battle.

jklantern

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Re: Help Me Understand... Gargoyle Prime
« Reply #35 on: 02 December 2011, 21:19:32 »
I imagine they have 4 combat omnis and 1 Gargoyle. After every battle, the lowest-scoring pilot of the 4 combat omnis is forced to switch off into the penalty box. I mean... Gargoyle Prime and provide support for the next battle.

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Re: Help Me Understand... Gargoyle Prime
« Reply #36 on: 03 December 2011, 14:50:28 »
break with the habit of automatically considering an Omni design's "primary" configuration its default "main" one. It's just too specialized for traditional ('Mech-heavy) Clan warfare; but if I cross my eyes just right and assume that the Clans using the design might just have decided to reconfigure a number of Gargoyles into dedicated vehicle-hunters before going up against the primitive barbarians of the Inner Sphere, I can just about see the "Prime" being the first and most common configuration that the IS forces might have encountered and thus getting its title more or less by sheer historical accident...

I'd add the following from TRO3050:  "Almost as frequently seen is a model that carries two particle projection cannons in the right arm and four lasers in the left--a large pulse laser, a medium pulse laser, and extended-range medium and small lasers. "

The Prime was only slightly more common than the A, and when you look at what most clans faced,  FedCom RCTs & FRR Mixed Brigades supporting each mech regiment, is it any wonder it was more common, if only slightly.  Only the DC wasn't a heavy user of combined arms and they still had plenty of support, just not trained like an RCT.

When I see a clan star having to face off w/ a Lance of IS Mechs, supported by 2 Lances of IS Vees, further supported by a company or 2 of infantry........yeah, I don't worry about my Gargoyle not being an uber mech killer, I know there will be plenty of Targets out there to kill.
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Re: Help Me Understand... Gargoyle Prime
« Reply #37 on: 03 December 2011, 16:49:33 »
Well it become s apparent on how good Clan Wolf was when you notice they had some 150 of the things in their invasion forces...

A quick run down of the most common clan Wolf units in the invasion
182 Ice ferrets, 153 Gargoyles, 113 Adders, 67 Timber Wolves, and 47 Nagas. Their is also 172 Jagatais, 96 Visigoths and 62 Jenghizs.

Grantwhy

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Re: Help Me Understand... Gargoyle Prime
« Reply #38 on: 05 December 2011, 00:04:13 »
Oh yeah, i can see it now...

"Warrior, your exploits on the battlefield have made your Clan and your Bloodhouse proud! In recognition of the martial prowess witnessed by your codex, the Clan hereby assigns you one of our precious assault class, frontline OmniMechs!"

     [Mythbusters]There's your problem.[/Mythbusters]  ;)

The Clans don't see/treat Assault 'Mechs as precious in the same way as the Inner Sphere does, and they have a history of putting their better MechWarriors in Heavy (or Medium) OmniMechs.

Give the 'rookie' the Gargoyle (Prime), and if they do a good job move them into a 'better' design (or Gargoyle configuration)
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Re: Help Me Understand... Gargoyle Prime
« Reply #39 on: 05 December 2011, 00:21:35 »
Quite the reverse, actually. Although Clan warriors undergo their Trial of Position in a medium-weight or heavier machine, they begin their military career in a Light 'Mech and move up in mass from there. Assault 'Mechs are reserved for the best pilots, but it's not uncommon for a skilled warrior to select a lighter machine than they qualify for.
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Diplominator

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Re: Help Me Understand... Gargoyle Prime
« Reply #40 on: 05 December 2011, 03:44:35 »
Quite the reverse, actually. Although Clan warriors undergo their Trial of Position in a medium-weight or heavier machine, they begin their military career in a Light 'Mech and move up in mass from there. Assault 'Mechs are reserved for the best pilots, but it's not uncommon for a skilled warrior to select a lighter machine than they qualify for.

Where are you getting that from? Leaving aside the problems with describing "the Clans" as a uniform whole, Aidan Pryde, for instance, appeared to have been given a Summoner more or less immediately, despite posing as a freeborn. There was a character in Roar of Honor who was fresh out of the sibko and had a Nova. That's all that comes to mind immediately*, but it's something of a contradiction. To be clear, I'm saying that your assertion is puzzling to me, not wrong. Just wondering where you got the idea.



*I just reread Roar of Honor. It's not weird that I remembered something like that. Shut up.

Stormfury

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Re: Help Me Understand... Gargoyle Prime
« Reply #41 on: 05 December 2011, 04:33:04 »
The Clan Field Manuals.

"As a rule, Clan MechWarriors begin their careers in lighter-weight OmniMechs. Those who fail to demonstrate their worth to the Clan fall quickly into second-line or garrison ranks, where they can expect to pilot standard BattleMechs. Those who prove their value, by contrast, receive heavier and better OmniMechs as their achievements merit. At some point, most warriors discover an an affinity with a single 'Mech design or weight class, developing a particular expertise with it. Such affinities sometimes lead Cluster or Galaxy commanders to pilot light 'Mechs, though heavy or assault Omnis are far more common choices." P. 8, Field Manual: Crusader Clans, under 'Mech Assets. This section is reproduced in Field Manual: Warden Clans.

In terms of your examples, we don't see Jorge/Aidan's career prior to his arrival at Glory Station, having scored only the one kill in his Trial of Position and being defeated by a Warhawk but showing up next as a Star Commander. Having a command rank suggests he did something worthwhile between those points.

Bethany, and indeed Roar of Honour in general, are also poor examples; we know that Bethany was a good fighter but a misfit prior to being recruited by Angela, and so also may have been in something else. The rest of the novel is so riddled with inaccuracies (the Wolves being befuddled by their primary mode of warfare, the mobile campaign; the adaptable Ghost Bears and unable-to-innovate Wolves, and a MechWarrior who must be pushing two centuries if he was really involved in the development of the Kodiak...) and so a limited amount can be drawn from that.

It is also worth noting that the characters we see in novels are atypical.
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Diplominator

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Re: Help Me Understand... Gargoyle Prime
« Reply #42 on: 05 December 2011, 15:27:45 »
In most cases the atypical part of their careers is what's in the novel, though. Aidan was treated like an unexceptional warrior until he demonstrated otherwise. I did forget about the time jumps in those books, though. So, maybe he did get a Kit Fox or something, then a...actually, I can't think of any really Falcon-y mediums from that era. Then a Summoner. In addition, those were really early books and I'm pretty sure there really weren't any "second-line" 'Mechs at the time.

In any case, I stand corrected, although I rather suspect the Clans would treat assignment to a Gargoyle more like assignment to a heavy 'Mech, and not a great heavy 'Mech at that.

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Re: Help Me Understand... Gargoyle Prime
« Reply #43 on: 05 December 2011, 19:07:28 »
Well, going by the earlier-mentioned enumeration of the Invasion touman, the Gargoyle far outnumbered the Mad Cat, so it's more probable that people were tooling around in Gargoyles and working their way up than vice versa.
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lucho

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Re: Help Me Understand... Gargoyle Prime
« Reply #44 on: 05 December 2011, 21:08:58 »
are the production dates of the Gargoyle and Timberwolf published anywhere? I suspect that the Gargoyle is older, which would explain why it outnumbers the Timberwolf, at least among the wolves
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Stormfury

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Re: Help Me Understand... Gargoyle Prime
« Reply #45 on: 05 December 2011, 22:39:43 »
They are both from 2945, per the MUL.

There are two things to consider; first the aforementioned piloting preferences, and secondly the pace at which Wolf Clusters moved. The Wolves preferred both the Ice Ferret and Adder to the Gargoyle, which in turn outnumbers the Timber Wolf. Wolf pilots appear to favour faster designs for tactical flexibility and their mobile style of combat, so larger machines tended to not be too common.
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lucho

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Re: Help Me Understand... Gargoyle Prime
« Reply #46 on: 05 December 2011, 22:49:09 »
True, but we already knew that the wolves like faster designs, as do the Jade Falcons (in fact, the Smoke Jaguars were the odd clan out, with their reliance on direwolves and Warhawks). The only atypical quirk among the wolves is the general dislike of jumjpjets, in contrast to the Falcons.
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Re: Help Me Understand... Gargoyle Prime
« Reply #47 on: 05 December 2011, 23:42:54 »
They are both from 2945, per the MUL.
That's new.  Only one of them had a date in the TRO even though the other was fluffed as "around the same time", being Woodsman replacements.
Interesting to see they went with the exact same year.
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Re: Help Me Understand... Gargoyle Prime
« Reply #48 on: 06 December 2011, 19:16:25 »
Yes, it is very good at killing off the vehicles, VTOLs, maybe ASF and infantry . . . put one against common militia armor and see what happens.  All hail the sandblasters!

I ran a test of this some time back, and a Gargoyle Prime was smashing a reinforced company of heavy armor- stuff like Manticores, Von Luckners, Rommels and Pattons.  Its a matter of speed of throwing damage vs giving ground.  Against Scorpions, Hunter LS Tanks, Strikers and Vedettes . . . your going to clean up.  Even factoring in stuff like the S-series hovercraft, its going to tear conventional forces up.
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Re: Help Me Understand... Gargoyle Prime
« Reply #49 on: 07 December 2011, 01:17:22 »
I've long suspected that the real reason for the Man O War Prime's existence was to give IS mechs something that they could take on in a one to one battle and actually have a chance at beating during the Invasion.
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Re: Help Me Understand... Gargoyle Prime
« Reply #50 on: 07 December 2011, 02:33:27 »
Yes, it is very good at killing off the vehicles, VTOLs, maybe ASF and infantry . . . put one against common militia armor and see what happens.  All hail the sandblasters!

I ran a test of this some time back, and a Gargoyle Prime was smashing a reinforced company of heavy armor- stuff like Manticores, Von Luckners, Rommels and Pattons.  Its a matter of speed of throwing damage vs giving ground.  Against Scorpions, Hunter LS Tanks, Strikers and Vedettes . . . your going to clean up.  Even factoring in stuff like the S-series hovercraft, its going to tear conventional forces up.

Yeah, the 5-X is brutal against vehicles and aircraft.  That is why my personal Dire Wolf configuration mounts a pair of them, although being a Dire Wolf it also has the space for a trio of ERPPCs so it can work over 'Mechs just as well.


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