Author Topic: Viper artillery on Jabuka  (Read 645 times)

Alan Grant

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Viper artillery on Jabuka
« on: 28 February 2024, 16:02:45 »
What artillery platforms did the Steel Vipers use on Jabuka during the Clan invasion?

From what little canon info hints at, they used a lot of artillery.

AlphaMirage

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Re: Viper artillery on Jabuka
« Reply #1 on: 28 February 2024, 16:49:58 »
Most likely Arrow IVs although the Vipers did have frontline infantry so it would make sense for them to have some tube artillery as well.

That said the Clans don't really have any good canon artillery platforms (the Fortress being an exception) besides old SLDF stuff (Thumper/Marksman/Long Tom SPAs maybe Valis or Chaparrals) from Brian Caches.

It is however also possible for them to have captured stuff from the Sphere and used the isorla guns to distance themselves from such dezgra behavior such as artillery bombardment.

Metallgewitter

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Re: Viper artillery on Jabuka
« Reply #2 on: 28 February 2024, 17:28:13 »
I would guess Arrow IV as that seems to be the only artillery still present in the Clan's general arsenal. The Naga and the Bowman as Mech delivered artillery come to mind. Also wasn't the Huiztolipochtli also constructed in the Golden Age? But other then that I can't actually think of any Clan made artillery unit. Except perhaps bringing out any survivng SLDF gear.

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Re: Viper artillery on Jabuka
« Reply #3 on: 28 February 2024, 17:35:50 »
The huey was constructed but it's not 'good' in my opinion, to slow and lightly armored for my liking. I'd rather have its predecessor the Padilla.

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Re: Viper artillery on Jabuka
« Reply #4 on: 28 February 2024, 21:06:59 »
What artillery platforms did the Steel Vipers use on Jabuka during the Clan invasion?

From what little canon info hints at, they used a lot of artillery.

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Re: Viper artillery on Jabuka
« Reply #6 on: 28 February 2024, 22:28:17 »
Invading Clans just says "The Steel Vipers chose instead to hit the 17th Donegal Guards and 19th Lyran Guards with massive artillery barrages, then sent in Elemental teams to cause further chaos." No further details are given. Kind of weird to read this, considering how much pissing and moaning they did when the Falcons did the same thing to them. Doesn't seem like a particularly Viper thing to do at this point in their history.
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Re: Viper artillery on Jabuka
« Reply #7 on: 28 February 2024, 23:18:17 »
It was somewhat early in the lore, so the details of their way of thinking might not have been completely sorted out.

Though it could have also been a pride thing. The Vipers might have regarded the Fedcom unworthy of the honor of a standup battle, and got offended later when the Falcons treated them with similar disregard.

As for specific platforms, in addition to simply reconfiguring omnimechs, the Vipers had access to the Naga, Huey, Chaparral, Thor artillery vehicle, and the mobile long tom during the time in question.

However, I think it's most likely they used reconfigured omnimechs rather than dedicated artillery units, since I feel like those would most likely be in second line formations rather than Alpha Galaxy.
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Re: Viper artillery on Jabuka
« Reply #8 on: 29 February 2024, 01:03:06 »
Which leaves the Bowman and Naga as well as the recent retcon of Kit Fox V. But anything is possible. Even more "V" configurations...

I mean, it is possible to mount others, just that no "known" variants of yet. All you'll need is 13 tons and 13 crits to mount them.

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Re: Viper artillery on Jabuka
« Reply #9 on: 29 February 2024, 01:10:38 »
It appears the Bowman is out, as it isn't listed as available to the Steel Vipers during the invasion on the MUL.

The earlier lore was a lot more free with custom configurations. I do believe there's also a reference to the Turkina Keshik reconfiguring their own mechs with arrow missile launchers when they were demolishing Von Strang's World.
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Metallgewitter

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Re: Viper artillery on Jabuka
« Reply #10 on: 29 February 2024, 02:47:19 »
Invading Clans just says "The Steel Vipers chose instead to hit the 17th Donegal Guards and 19th Lyran Guards with massive artillery barrages, then sent in Elemental teams to cause further chaos." No further details are given. Kind of weird to read this, considering how much pissing and moaning they did when the Falcons did the same thing to them. Doesn't seem like a particularly Viper thing to do at this point in their history.

From what I understand is that the Vipers expected the Falcons to fight "according to our rules". They even specifically mentioned that a few decades ago the Wolves were actually censured when they brought artillery into a fight. Of course other Clans actually applauded the Falcons for it and also called it "times change". Also for the Naga: there was one Star Adder pilot who racked up a lot of kills with his Naga against the Blood Spirits. So it's not like other Clans don't use artillery as well. Though the Arrow IV is more like a precise instrument unlike the sledgehammer that are Long Tom, Sniper or Thumper rounds so maybe that is a reason the Clans convince themselves to keep using Arrow IV artillery

Alan Grant

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Re: Viper artillery on Jabuka
« Reply #11 on: 29 February 2024, 07:31:05 »
The fluff on the Asshur from TRO 3060 talks about them being notably used by the Vipers once. A mercenary raid by a mercenary unit called Armstrong's Archers. They tried to raid Graus which was under Viper control in 3054. They faced part of a Phalanx Cluster and a mixed star of 'mechs and vehicles.

The mercs didn't realize one of the vehicles was an Asshur and ignored it, focusing on the 2 Viper 'mechs in the defense. It says the mercenaries' actions freed them from Zellbrigen and the Asshur ran circles around the Inner Sphere 'mechs designating targets for Arrow IV strikes from two vehicles (doesn't state what type) kilometers away from the battle. None of the mercenaries survived.

So, there's another instance where the Vipers used artillery.

It wouldn't surprise me if the Vipers pulled something similar on Jabuka. What I mean is, an initial clash or skirmish where the Spheroids break Zell. The Vipers practically knew it would happen and in fact had made it part of their battle plan, bringing along enough artillery to embark on their chosen strategy. In Clan honor terms that released them from their obligations to Zell and they went ahead with their plan to bombard the Spheroids.

EDIT

It was 1 Clan Galaxy versus 2 dug-in RCTs. This was also later in Revival, not one of the first waves. I can't say I really blame them. But it did surprise me too. I think that because it was a fight versus Spheroids, who by that point it was well understood wouldn't honor Zell, made a big difference in how this was perceived in terms of Clan honor. I suspect around this time (early 3050s) there was this expectation that when fighting Spheroids, they would fight like "barbarians" and so everything was on the table. But what that meant absolutely varied from situation to situation, and Clan to Clan and even just unit commander versus unit commander. The Vipers had a lot of different personalities in charge at this time, Natalie Breen and Christopher Ahmed were very different personality wise than Perigard Zalman for example. That can include battle tactics and what they deemed acceptable under those conditions.

For comparison value... Khan Natasha Kerensky, leading all of the Wolf Alpha Galaxy into invasions late in Operation Revival, found fighting 1 full size good RCT to be a tough fight on Suk II fighting the 33rd Avalon Hussars. According to the Clan Wolf Sourcebook page 68, she knew it would be a tough fight and it was one. On Jabuka it was double that, 2 RCTs.

Another stray thought. The Vipers use fewer ASFs per Cluster (5 to a Star) with more of them assigned as naval escorts, and I believe one of the Alpha Clusters had no air power at all. During Operation Revival we saw many instances where other Clans countered artillery and dug-in positions through heavy use of air power, sending fighters to bomb or strafe Spheroid artillery positions. I think the Bears did this in one of the earliest invasions during Operation Revival. I wonder if having fewer ASFs meant that Viper doctrine saw artillery as more acceptable, since Viper Cluster and Galaxy commanders had less air power to work with. Unless augmented by more air units from their naval reserve.
« Last Edit: 29 February 2024, 08:57:49 by Alan Grant »

tassa_kay

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Re: Viper artillery on Jabuka
« Reply #12 on: 29 February 2024, 10:02:46 »
It wouldn't surprise me if the Vipers pulled something similar on Jabuka. What I mean is, an initial clash or skirmish where the Spheroids break Zell. The Vipers practically knew it would happen and in fact had made it part of their battle plan, bringing along enough artillery to embark on their chosen strategy. In Clan honor terms that released them from their obligations to Zell and they went ahead with their plan to bombard the Spheroids.

This sounds like the most plausible answer, as we've seen several examples of the Vipers adhering strictly to zell, but breaking it the second their opponents give them the opportunity to do so.
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Re: Viper artillery on Jabuka
« Reply #13 on: 29 February 2024, 10:17:29 »
What artillery platforms did the Steel Vipers use on Jabuka during the Clan invasion?

From what little canon info hints at, they used a lot of artillery.
Could it that they used LRM-equipped Mechs as artillery? Indirect fire? And the mentioned Elementals as spotters?
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Re: Viper artillery on Jabuka
« Reply #14 on: 29 February 2024, 10:25:32 »
Surely Arrow IV exists as Omni pods? Nagas are good but it should be possible to fit other assault OmniMechs with Arrow IV launchers. Gargoyles and Dire Wolves perhaps.
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Tyler Jorgensson

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Re: Viper artillery on Jabuka
« Reply #15 on: 29 February 2024, 10:33:38 »
UrbanMech UM-AIV :D

I’ll see myself out now


But seriously: if the Grand Council had gone into more detail during the Viper Annihilation I’m sure this event would have been mentioned as evidence of their tainted status.


Also IDK when the Kit Fox V config did appear but it’s another example of an Omni capable of mounting an Arrow IV.

Cannonshop

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Re: Viper artillery on Jabuka
« Reply #16 on: 29 February 2024, 11:01:35 »
Invading Clans just says "The Steel Vipers chose instead to hit the 17th Donegal Guards and 19th Lyran Guards with massive artillery barrages, then sent in Elemental teams to cause further chaos." No further details are given. Kind of weird to read this, considering how much pissing and moaning they did when the Falcons did the same thing to them. Doesn't seem like a particularly Viper thing to do at this point in their history.

reminder: Hypocrisy is not new, and Clan Steel Viper's later conduct, compared to their description in Invading Clans suggests they may have gotten an extra helping of it.
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Re: Viper artillery on Jabuka
« Reply #17 on: 29 February 2024, 11:36:00 »
Surely Arrow IV exists as Omni pods? Nagas are good but it should be possible to fit other assault OmniMechs with Arrow IV launchers. Gargoyles and Dire Wolves perhaps.

indeed. configs don't exist until they do. the kit fox has an arrow IV variant as well. chaparrals and padillas were likely available in very small numbers

there's also this guy
http://masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/3188/thor-artillery-vehicle-clan

and this one
http://masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/2202/mobile-long-tom-artillery-lt-mob-25



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Re: Viper artillery on Jabuka
« Reply #18 on: 29 February 2024, 12:07:35 »
reminder: Hypocrisy is not new, and Clan Steel Viper's later conduct, compared to their description in Invading Clans suggests they may have gotten an extra helping of it.

Not necessarily. Clan Steel Viper is essentially a cult, the cult of Sanra Mercer. They deliberately isolate themselves from the other Clans, and maintain a deep belief in not only their own superiority, but in the righteousness of their ways. They believe that they will easily defeat the Inner Sphere barbarians, then those same barbarians will see the error of their ways, acknowledge the Vipers as their rightful rulers, and help them establish a new Star League. This isn't just an optimistic plan, it's what the Vipers wholeheartedly believe WILL happen, because Sanra Mercer said so. Then the reality of the Inner Sphere hits them. What do fanatics do when their belief system is shaken? Some might be able to adapt, like Perigard Zalaman recognizing the value of freeborns after getting his ass kicked by one, but when the fanatic is also a psychopath like Brett Andrews...no. They double down, and they murder anyone who questions them. So even though it may not be explicitly spelled out in Invading Clans or Field Manual Warden Clans, the seeds of the Vipers' behavior during the Wars of Reaving are there, if you understand human nature.

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Re: Viper artillery on Jabuka
« Reply #19 on: 05 March 2024, 20:32:15 »
Even in the more level-headed Clans, it's hardly atypical for someone who's an absolute jackass to wind up fighting their way to a high rank.
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