Stealth Armor - How to beat it?

[Southern Coyote]

Had my first encounter with Stealth armor today.  That was rough.

Any useful tactics on beating stealth armor besides engaging in close quarters combat? 

[Durandal]

Hmm, you could try some of these:

C3 - Don't have my rules with my right now but C3 should be able to do a number on stealth units by negating their ability to make it hard to hit them at longer ranges.

Targeting Computer/Artemis IV FCS - Negates the medium range mod and can be utilized alongside long range weapons to stand back and pound some stealthy units into the ground.

Plasma Weapons - Depending on the design you are facing it may be a hot-running stealth design (perhaps utilizing TSM).  You can blow this back in their face by forcing them into a situation where they need to deactivate stealth or risk some heavy penalties for heat.

Skilled Pilots - Granted they can use this as well but if stealth armour is widespread on their side they are already paying a premium for it so you may be able to get some pilots with good gunnery TNs to even the score.

TSM-equipped CQB Designs (maybe with stealth of their own) - Sometimes simple solutions are the best and you just need to send a fast bugger their way to put a dent in them.

Pulse Lasers - Again, they give you a bonus to help negate the TN mods incurred by stealth weaponry.  Mix with targeting computers for more fun.

Again, don't have my book nearby so I can't give too many exact tricks (just vague possibilities :D) but basically any thing that adjusts your TN down in some way should help against stealth.  The other obvious suggestion is bringing some stealth of your own to make your opponent's life harder.

[Southern Coyote]

Well, I faced a primarily Stealth Armor force today and had never fought against it before.  Once the other player told me how it operated, I had to hammer and anvil him, forcing his mechs to engage my mechs on more favorable, closed quarters terrain and ganging up on the worst mechs. 

[willydstyle]

Who won?

[Prillotashekta]

Yeah, stealth armor can be... interesting... to play against.

Getting close is good, since the stealth unit doesn't get any bonus at short range.
Pulse lasers with that -2 to-hit help.

Heat does a number on stealthed units. Most units that use it tend to run a little warm. A blast of infernos will slow them right down.

[A. Lurker]

C3 - Don't have my rules with my right now but C3 should be able to do a number on stealth units by negating their ability to make it hard to hit them at longer ranges.

Targeting Computer/Artemis IV FCS - Negates the medium range mod and can be utilized alongside long range weapons to stand back and pound some stealthy units into the ground.

With stealth armor automatically incorporating an ECM suite, Artemis IV (or V for that matter, or Narc/iNarc) won't help and you'll want to be a bit careful with the C3 as well. After all, it wouldn't do to get your spotter caught in the ECM bubble or even just have it block LOS between them and the rest of the network...so the shortest effective range you're going to get under standard rules (i.e., not using TacOps ECCM) is 7 hexes.

The rest of the tips in this thread I agree with, especially the ones about getting close and messing with the stealth units' heat. ;)

[Neufeld]

To add to what has been already said, weapons that attack the hex instead of the unit, like artillery, is one possible solution.

[Werewolf]

With stealth armor automatically incorporating an ECM suite, Artemis IV (or V for that matter, or Narc/iNarc) won't help and you'll want to be a bit careful with the C3 as well. After all, it wouldn't do to get your spotter caught in the ECM bubble or even just have it block LOS between them and the rest of the network...so the shortest effective range you're going to get under standard rules (i.e., not using TacOps ECCM) is 7 hexes.

The rest of the tips in this thread I agree with, especially the ones about getting close and messing with the stealth units' heat. ;)

...I don't quite get the point there as the Stealth-equipped unit itself is treated as being within range of an enemy ECM suite, too...
So, going in with C3 et al against a Stealth-equipped unit is a VERY viable tactic, at least if the rest of your C3 lance/company gives
inferno/plasma surpression fire. ;)

Edit: Actually, the only real advantage I see for Stealth-equipped units is that they cannot be targeted as a secondary target,
requiring concerted effort by you own units and recognition as a priority threat.

[phoenixalpha]

Thunder munitions work well as stealth units cant maneuver freely at range which gives stealth units all the advantages. Also utilising jump jets works well so you can close the distance as soon as possible. You might not be able to hit them but with high TMM they'll be just as hampered.

[A. Lurker]

...I don't quite get the point there as the Stealth-equipped unit itself is treated as being within range of an enemy ECM suite...
So, going in with C3 et al against a Stealth-equipped unit is a VERY viable tactic, at least if the rest of your C3 lance/company gives
inferno/plasma surpression fire. ;)

The point is simply that the shortest C3-assisted effective range on a stealth unit is 7 hexes; any closer and your spotter is in the ECM bubble and cut off from the network as usual. So unless you've explicitly brought a lot of weapons that still fire at short range over that kind of distance, it's easy to end up getting at best effective medium range out of your network for much of your firepower (or no benefit at all for the above-mentioned infernos, for which 7 hexes is already in the long-range bracket)...

(And yes, a unit with active stealth armor does still project an ECM bubble as normal. ECM isn't on the list of things shut down by hostile ECM itself.)

[Southern Coyote]

Who won?

We called it a draw.  He had 2 more mechs than I did, giving him 4 heavies and 2 lights.  I had 4 assaults left that were well in cover and had plenty of ammo.  It could have gone either way, he said, but I didn't like where I was sitting.  I did manage to get my mediums manuevered behind his forces and got in several successful crit shots on the rear torso, but he won initiative, and there went that advantage...

[Greyhind]

snip

On the other hand if your opponent brought in Stealthed 'mechs to deliberately spoil your C3 network then they have less BV to spend upon their pilots and both sides get fringe benefits from their systems.

Apples and oranges upon effectiveness at this point, IMHO.

[A. Lurker]

On the other hand if your opponent brought in Stealthed 'mechs to deliberately spoil your C3 network then they have less BV to spend upon their pilots and both sides get fringe benefits from their systems.

Apples and oranges upon effectiveness at this point, IMHO.

And your C3 was perfectly free in terms of BV, of course. ;)

Besides, the original post I was replying to suggested C3 as a way to deal with stealth in the first place, not the other way around. And given how many people on these boards I've seen bemoan how ECM supposedly cheaply cripples C3 in particular, the notion of bringing in C3 on purpose to specifically deal with ECM-carrying enemy units (which is to say, stealth-armored ones) admittedly kind of struck me as a touch incongruous.

[cray]

...I don't quite get the point there as the Stealth-equipped unit itself is treated as being within range of an enemy ECM suite, too...

Because it has to strictly regulate its emissions. A stealthed unit can't use a blaring targeting radar, broadband C3 communications link, or Artemis microwave communication link without ruining its stealth.

Edit: Actually, the only real advantage I see for Stealth-equipped units is that they cannot be targeted as a secondary target,
requiring concerted effort by you own units and recognition as a priority threat.

+1 to hit at medium range and +2 at long range make sharp differences on a 2d6 probability system. For example, a 12 is six times less likely to be rolled on 2d6 than a 10. In that case, stealth armor means the unit will take 1/6th the damage as a non-stealth unit.

[Greyhind]

And your C3 was perfectly free in terms of BV, of course. ;)

That was kinda my point. Perhaps I phrased that badly but I see C3 and Stealth as mutually incompatible force multipliers that both hike up a units given BV. Using one to fight the other may not give you an advantage but it will keep things even-ish.

And at this point we need to take a good look at individual units and the tactics and strategies that they can use in order to see which side would have a clear winner.

As, in my view, C3 can level the playing field with stealth. It must be a valid step (although not the only option) towards defeating a force which includes stealth. After all you can't achieve supremacy if you can't manage parity.


Baring nukes. Nukes are also a good option against stealthed 'mechs.

[willydstyle]

I guess that the evidence of your one game (which you admit was a close one) is counter to my personal experience that stealth-equipped mechs cost *way* too much BV, and many canon stealth mechs simply aren't designed for the task very well.

For example, the MAD-6L has all heat-intensive weapons, really limiting what it can fire with stealth turned on, and costs a whopping 2300 BV.  That's more than many clan mechs of the same weight!

[Dread Moores]

I've often found that just straight BV games against stealth units end up with the stealth units getting overwhelmed. The BV increases allow for the OpFor to often get a lot more bang for their buck, particularly if the OpFor doesn't go for anything fancy. It's the same issue I often find with c3 and c3i.

[A. Lurker]

I guess that the evidence of your one game (which you admit was a close one) is counter to my personal experience that stealth-equipped mechs cost *way* too much BV, and many canon stealth mechs simply aren't designed for the task very well.

For example, the MAD-6L has all heat-intensive weapons, really limiting what it can fire with stealth turned on, and costs a whopping 2300 BV.  That's more than many clan mechs of the same weight!

Well, that's because stealth armor (and similar systems like null-sig) figure into BV with their full defensive benefits when on, but are then effectively treated as off for heat efficiency purposes (the extra heat built up when they're active is never figured in). Which is horribly messed up as far as I'm concerned, but that's the way the canon BV system rolls these days...it's still a rather arbitrary way to distill everything about a unit into a single point value at heart, it's just that its precursors were worse.

[willydstyle]

Most of the time it works pretty well, I think.  For example, a Timber Wolf Prime is significantly more expensive than a Summoner Prime, BV-wise, but only weighs 5 more tons.  Since the Timberwolf is the obviously superior mech, having a greater in-game cost simply makes sense, and gives people a good reason to use the Summoner outside of faction preference.

[Stockus13]

Stealth Armor is decent.

I'd bring a Warhawk C to the party and see how the stealth mech did then ;)

Clan Pulse lasers in themselves reduce the long range bonus.

So an Ice Ferret D would come in handy if it were chasing a lower BV stealth mech.

[Cybra]

Another option is to load up with SNPPCs. 9-hex short range? Let's go hunting }:)

[mensa12345]

I like to use volume of firepower.  Usually, stealth equipted mechs can only use a few main guns due to the heat generated by the system.  If I can get two guns on them for each one of theirs, then it usually balances out.  They're roughly twice as hard to hit as I am, but I shoot twice per round to their once.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Another option is to load up with SNPPCs. 9-hex short range? Let's go hunting }:)

You and I think alike }:)

[Youngblood]

You and I think alike }:)

Of all the possible (and perceived-to-be-possible) ways of defeating Stealth Armor, this is really the best one.

[garhkal]

Fast jumpers with pulses..  Get in right in his back!

[Youngblood]

Fast jumpers with pulses..  Get in right in his back!

Until the Stealth unit is also a fast jumper with reach weapons too...

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Given their inherent range problems, pulse lasers aren't really that great against Stealth Armor.  Weapons that have really good reach often outperform them.

[JPArbiter]

Well, I faced a primarily Stealth Armor force today and had never fought against it before.  Once the other player told me how it operated, I had to hammer and anvil him, forcing his mechs to engage my mechs on more favorable, closed quarters terrain and ganging up on the worst mechs.

that is pretty much the defining trick in rngaging stealth armor equipped mechs.

there is no clever way to bat em, as most SA mechs are already well armored and thier ECMs are well protected.  it comes down to focusing fire on the best TNs and bringing them down one at a time on your terms not his

[Jellico]

Which has its own set of problems these days. People have figured out how to combine stealth, IJJs and heavy mech amour. While you can't build a force around super Wraiths, you can't ignore them either.

[garhkal]

Until the Stealth unit is also a fast jumper with reach weapons too...

How many stealth units are also jumpers?

[willydstyle]

PHX-5L and 6L, but neither of them really have the heatsinks to have stealth armor engaged, jump, and fire in the same turn.

[Southern Coyote]

Enough of them are jumpers. 

Played against today using Clantech.  Faired little better.  My Nova Cat F made a big difference, but the terrain was urban and any advantage to manuverability, range, or what have you is lost in city fighting...

[willydstyle]

Enough of them are jumpers. 

Played against today using Clantech.  Faired little better.  My Nova Cat F made a big difference, but the terrain was urban and any advantage to manuverability, range, or what have you is lost in city fighting...

Who is setting up the terrain?  Honestly, without more clarification it sounds like you're complaining about close games being too tough.  Close games should be the norm if you're going for balanced scenarios.

[Southern Coyote]

The maps were selected randomly.  We turned them all over, blank side out and selected 1 each.  The maps happened to be some urban terrain, one of which was one with a lot of weaker structures, so even jumping was limited.  This time, I got very unlucky with some dice rolls, although towards the end, I managed to cripple several of his mechs but didn't kill any.  He got lucky and managed several crit hits and got engine hits on my two heaviest chassis, and ripped apart my Pariah. 

Admittedly, I'm not great on urban terrain and was working with configs I wasn't used too.  For me to last as long as I did was sheer luck and good manuevering. 

I still don't like Stealth Armor but today taught me that it isn't invicible. Just a pain...

[Durandal]

Heh, whoops, somehow stealth armour carrying Guardian ECM completely slipped my mind when posting my initial thoughts.  So yes, disregard anything that ECM would screw with (AIV FCS, C3, etc.), horrible idea. :D

Snub nosed PPCs are a great idea though as they have some awesome short range reach that lets you sit back and still smack the enemy around.

Teach me to write stream of consciousness posts at work without access to any books and no coffee. :P

[Jim1701]

My preferred method to dealing with Stealth is applying as much heat as possible and get up close and personal.

[Cybra]

c3/c2i networks could still be useful, if you remember to pack on an ECM and remember to set it to ECCM (ECCM negates ECM field in a 1:1 setting, thereby allowing you to still get your c3 network links). I like to put in an Angel ECM suite for double the ECCM ability.

[willydstyle]

c3/c2i networks could still be useful, if you remember to pack on an ECM and remember to set it to ECCM (ECCM negates ECM field in a 1:1 setting, thereby allowing you to still get your c3 network links). I like to put in an Angel ECM suite for double the ECCM ability.

That only works with tac-ops level rules, right?

[Peter Smith]

That only works with tac-ops level rules, right?

Ayup. That's why the best way to beat Stealth Armor is to get into short range and pound the snot out of the unit.

[Ian Sharpe]

Penetrators and other pulse boats do a great job.

[garhkal]

Enough of them are jumpers. 

Most of the ones i remember are at MOST 5/8/5..  the rest are 3/5/3 or 4/6/4

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

The Eylukia is a 5/8/7, while there's a Duan Gung variant that's a 7/11/6, though it's a terribly infighter due to its nearly nonexistent armor.

[willydstyle]

But the Eyleuka doesn't have nearly the heat capacity or weapons choices to fully make use of stealth, firepower, and maneuverability all at the same time. With it's stealth armor active, it can fire its ERLL and still gain heat even when stationary.

[Youngblood]

But the Eyleuka doesn't have nearly the heat capacity or weapons choices to fully make use of stealth, firepower, and maneuverability all at the same time. With it's stealth armor active, it can fire its ERLL and still gain heat even when stationary.

I like the -45B variant better if you're crazy enough for a stand-up fight.  But anyways, the scary part about the 'Mech is more due to its stealth-jumpiness combined with TAG, followed by Semi-Guided LRMs or Arrow IV Homing.  It's a team player.

But don't mind me.  I'll just hang out here in my corner, cuz Haseks don't know 'bout my Thunder 2L.  Try getting close to THAT.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

I'd rather not.

[Pandacron]

I don't know if this has been said yet,  but Stealth armor only gets better (Or worse, if you're the opponent) If the stealth mech has missile launchers. The option for light smoke to be thrown in between you (the opponent) and them (The invisible thing) makes dealing with that stealth armor all the more aggravation.  That and option for Thunder Ammo makes it harder or painful to try to close the distance or flank him.

I've never used the canon designs that had stealth armor, but I have built a mech with that capability and came equipped with an LRM launcher among other weapons. I'm unsure if it was a really good design, but it did give me some suggestions that might help you.

Your best bet would be area denial and end up cornering him. Manuever a big metal block of an assault mech. Most of them would do, but usually something with each an AC/20 or ER-PPC/SNPPCs and a lot of armor that your opponent would just have one look and go "...Uh-uh."

With his manuevering limited, just bring in the rear with some good knife-fighty light mechs that can jump or is manueverable enough to cut the distance while still take a few hits to the leg. (Mines) Once you have that, your sneaky opponent will either have to take the dozens of cuts from your lights, or take the wallops from your brick.

He's still going to have a bad day.  8)

[Crunch]

A few light fast units with SRMs loaded with infernos can really put a cramp in a Stealth units style for minimal points. You can get a platoon of Packrats for the cost of a medium mech.

[MadCapellan]

Infernos are probably the #1 thing to ruin any Capellan's day.  They cook vehicle crews in their tanks, roast infantry like marshmallows, and push most stealth & TSM designs to shut-down.  Just about every Capellan toy suffers from infernos except one - my friend Arrow IV, so my opponent's use of infernos is likely contingent on my use of Arrow IV.

[AnubisZombie]

I've been playing around with the stock designs in MM and the Griffin works good but the MML launcher is kinda weak and the plasma gun is nothin to write home about. The Marauder has to many energy weapons. The Archer is to slow to make effective use of it cause anything can close.

Add a Null Signature and Chameleon System to a Spector and that's a heat nightmare. You can move or jump.

If you could pack a gauss rifle with more than 2 tons of ammo into  something like an Exterminator, and keep the jump jets, then this stealth technology starts to shine.

As it stands packing all the crits and ballistic weapons and dealing with the heat makes this stuff a deal breaker for me. It's great for a Mechwarrior campaign where you wanna play super secret sneaky man, or maybe for getting past sensor grids in a BF scale game. As far as actually using it in combat that's a whole nother story.

[Ian Sharpe]

Infernos are probably the #1 thing to ruin any Capellan's day.  They cook vehicle crews in their tanks, roast infantry like marshmallows, and push most stealth & TSM designs to shut-down.  Just about every Capellan toy suffers from infernos except one - my friend Arrow IV, so my opponent's use of infernos is likely contingent on my use of Arrow IV.

Inferno-IV for extra fun!

[MadCapellan]

I've been playing around with the stock designs in MM and the Griffin works good but the MML launcher is kinda weak and the plasma gun is nothin to write home about. The Marauder has to many energy weapons. The Archer is to slow to make effective use of it cause anything can close.

Good job!  You selected some of the most lack-luster stealth designs out there!  Come back and talk to me once you've run the PLG-4Z or -5Z Pillager, EMP-6L & 7L Emperor, CTF-4L Cataphract, CRD-7L Crusader, VND-4L Vindicator, HUR-WO-R4N Huron Warrior, D9-G10 Duan Gung, & EYL-45B Eyleuka. 

[willydstyle]

The stealth reseens are *very* poor examples of stealth mechs.

[Devens]

Good job!  You selected some of the most lack-luster stealth designs out there!  Come back and talk to me once you've run the PLG-4Z or -5Z Pillager, EMP-6L & 7L Emperor, CTF-4L Cataphract, CRD-7L Crusader, VND-4L Vindicator, HUR-WO-R4N Huron Warrior, D9-G10 Duan Gung, & EYL-45B Eyleuka.

I second Madcap's statement.  The best stealth designs are mostly sniper designes.  Close combat designs like most of the Phoenix Mechs are a poor choice for stealth armor IMHO.   

[Iron Mongoose]

Of course the best stealth mechs are snipers.  Stealth armor works the very best at long range, and is detremental at short range, so mechs like the Pilliger and Archer and Emperor tend to be the best. 

Naturaly, the best way to beat them is for some or all of your force to get close, and quickly.  I like to send a portion of my force in close and engage thouse stealth mechs that are designed to drop their stealth in order to free heat for their secondaries, which is most but not all of them.  If they chouse to do this, then the rest of my force at range can also engage these mechs and bring them down, while if they don't the rest of my force still has to march in to close, but they can't effectively fight off the faster mechs that are on them already.

Another tactic I like, espcealy as the FWL or the Clans, is to take weapons with hyper long ranges, which makes getting into medium range rather easy.  The LGR hits medium at 17, ATM HEs at 18, HAGs at 16, etc.  Now, you're down from +6 to +3, which is a big difrence, with your opponent still at +4 to hit you.  This often works well when only some enemy mechs are stealth, and others are not.

[Negatorxx]

Play a BV based game. stealth is fairly overpriced.

TAG spotters and arti.  fast mediums/heavies.  both do the job