Massacre: Clan Wolf Star vs Two IS Merc Lances (pics and video)

[Lyran Archer]

This is the third battle between Phell's Tomcats mercenaries defending Fort Loudon and my invading Clan Wolf 721st Wolf Hussars.

So far, in total with two battles, the mercs have lost seven 'Mechs, two elite pilots dead, and three elite pilots captured. The Wolves have lost a mere three Elementals. The mercs desperately need a big win. They send two heavy lances to assault the Wolf-held city of Red Sands, held by a single Clan Star.

Phell's two Tomcats Mercenary lances (all have 4/5 pilots):

BLR-4S Battlemaster
CES-4S Caesar
CES-3R Caesar
ON2-M Orion

CPLT-C4 Catapult x3
CTF-3D Cataphract

 

My 721st Wolf Hussars Star (all -including the Elementals- are 3/4 Trueborns):

Dire Wolf C
Timber Wolf S
Nova S
Kit Fox W
Clan Elemental Medium Battle Armor Point



Here is the set-up:



The scenario objective is to simply destroy the enemy or drive him off the field of battle. The winner will be the one with more BV left standing on the battlefield at the end of the game.

Both forces are around 13 500 BV. The Force Size Multiplier is not being used.

I asked people to vote who they thought would win. Here are the results of the vote (with 90 people having voted) as I write this batrep:

Easy victory for the Clan Star - 7 (7.8%)
Hard-fought victory (over 50% losses even for the winner) for the Clan Star - 15 (16.7%)
Too close to call. The two forces are too evenly balanced - 7 (7.8%)
Hard-fought victory (over 50% losses even for the winner) for the two IS lances - 48 (53.3%)
Easy victory for the two IS lances - 13 (14.4%)

The video is in two parts. Here is Part One:

http://s124.photobucket.com/albums/p21/Star_Destroyer/?action=view&current=RedSandsFinal.mp4

Here is the exciting conclusion. Were you right?:

http://s124.photobucket.com/albums/p21/Star_Destroyer/?action=view&current=RedSandsFinalPart2.mp4

[WarMonkey]

Has Phell beaten you in ANY battles? Do you two have anybody else that games with you? I would think that he is probably getting sick and tired of being either LRM spammed to death or CLPL spammed to death. Only 3 Elemental deaths to five mechs?! :o 6 Elementals lost in three battles to a whole company destroyed?! :o I am not judging your skill at the game or Phell's either, but something seems fishy to me. Not trying to start a flame war either. It..just..doesn't..seem..right. :-\

[Hellraiser]

How are these forces chosen ?

Out of 8 IS mechs I see exactly 3 that have seen life on my table in 20+ years of playing the game.
(Caesar-3R, Orion-2M, and the BMer only because it was Jackson Davion in a canon event)


THREE Cat-C4's?!?  That thing blows compared to the C1 or C1B.
  Both of which are available to mercs.
Where are the Archer-4M/8M's ?
Don't even get me started on that Cataphract.

The KitFox & Nova are hands down the best versions of those 2 mechs.
That D-Wolf was the most BV of any unit in the game for a long time.
Meanwhile the TW-S which while not great will trash those Cat's in close under LRM range.


I have no idea of the skill level of either player, but....the Deployment set up to me screams experienced v/s inexperienced player.
The Clan keeps its big boats in the open while the thin skinned Kit Fox has the cover from buildings.
Where as the IS lances are split with the LRM boats closer to the clan force instead of concentrated together and supporting the close assault units ?


To me things just seem to be very imbalanced, but I don't much info to go on.

Last but not least the Clan side seems to have a solid edge in BV, something over 1K I think.

[willydstyle]

I don't know about experienced vs. inexperienced, but it does look like LyranArcher puts thought into tactics, and his opponent really does not. This is very evident in the deployment of of the IS forces, where the IS forces are just sort of lined up in two groups of 4, despite there being no good reason not to just clump everyone together for mutual support with no artillery on the field.

[Demos]

Really, there is apparently a material difference in playing skills.

Phelan should invest in C3 and ECCM.
Maybe LA should restrict himself in the selection of pulse boats in the next game(s). Clan pulse lasers *are* broken.

[Lyran Archer]

How are these forces chosen ?

To me things just seem to be very imbalanced, but I don't much info to go on.

Last but not least the Clan side seems to have a solid edge in BV, something over 1K I think.

We choose our forces from the 'Mechs we have.

Over 70% of people in a poll before this game thought his force selection was in a very good position to win and even balanced in Phell's favour.

We both have about 13 500 BV. In fact, Phell had 13 562 BV. Mine was:
4982 Dire Wolf C (3/4 pilot)
3398 Timber Wolf S (3/4)
2837 Nova S (3/4)
1975 Kit Fox W (3/4)
451 Clan Elemental Medium BA (3/4)

13 643 - Total (check your numbers, Hellraiser)

The reason for the lopsided victory was simple math:

Even with the Nova jumping it often only needed 4's to hit: Gunnery 3 - 2 (pulse) + 3 (jumped) = 4 and that was it because the Orion and Caesars had no jump jets and were running or walking for no TMM because of the hill terrain. The Catapults tried to stay still so they could at least hit the T-Wolf and had no chance in close against the Nova. Other mercs firing at the Nova often needed 9's: Gunnery 4 + 3 (TMM) + 1 or 2 (walk or run) + 1 (cover at times), so often a 9 or 10. It was simple math.

The Nova hit a lot and had a lot of firepower - 6 MPLs for 42 damage plus 4 MGs for another 8 damage. It was a beast.

Phell and I used the same dice so it wasn't the dice, it was just I was getting so many more chances for crits.

It was similar math with the Kit Fox: Gunnery 3 - 2 (pulse) + 4 (long range) + 1 or 2 (walk  or run) or 1 or 2 (TMM) = 7-9 to hit. Return fire: Gunnery 4 + 4 (long range) + 3 (walk with cover or ran) + 1 or 2 (walk or run) = 12 or 13. It was simple math.

My fire was simply far more accurate but the death knell was when that Nova got in close. As I said in another part of the forum, it was simple math.

[willydstyle]

Except if your opponent were supporting his own forces appropriately the nova should have been kicked into the ground, if it was actually shooting at close range most of the time.

[Alex Keller]

I like this series of battles because you can tell how each player makes tactical decisions.  From what I have seen, Phell's I.S. forces have consistently been outmaneuvered so that the I.S. forces are split up when they'd be more effective as a huge mass taking on the easiest target.  The I.S. also hasn't used indirect fire much and hasn't really attempted to stay in close confines terrain, allowing the Clan machines to use their superior mobility and range over open terrain. 

[kharnifex]

hahaha these battle-reps are simply the best. thanks again.

[Hellraiser]

Except if your opponent were supporting his own forces appropriately the nova should have been kicked into the ground, if it was actually shooting at close range most of the time.

I was wondering that too, how did it get into MG range w/o getting stomped to death ???
Without AE weapons there is no reason not to have those 8 mechs right on top of each other and gang stomp anything that gets in range.

[Hellraiser]

We choose our forces from the 'Mechs we have. 

Which is commendable and something I favor.
But its the particular VARIANTs that I question.
Much the same way I questioned the last set of mech variants that you posted about.

Over 70% of people in a poll before this game thought his force selection was in a very good position to win and even balanced in Phell's favour.

Because he had a ton of firepower, it appears to have not been utilized however.

We both have about 13 500 BV. In fact, Phell had 13 562 BV. Mine was:
4982 Dire Wolf C (3/4 pilot)
3398 Timber Wolf S (3/4)
2837 Nova S (3/4)
1975 Kit Fox W (3/4)
451 Clan Elemental Medium BA (3/4)

13 643 - Total (check your numbers, Hellraiser) 

I have.  Which is why I know Phell had 12,573, not 13,562, which is over 1000BV less than you had.

The reason for the lopsided victory was simple math:

My fire was simply far more accurate but the death knell was when that Nova got in close. As I said in another part of the forum, it was simple math.

No.  Simple math says he was putting down a lot more firepower than you which more than balances out the better to hit #s.
The issue most of us are seeing is in tactics because that firepower was not used to best effect.

Myself I also question the mech choices.

Given those same 8 mechs I would have replaced 4 variants immediately.
Catapults x3  =  C1b, C5, or C5A
Cataphract  =  3L  (Hell even the 1X is better that that 3D)

As for the other 4, well the Orion is the only for sure mech I would take.
Caesar x2  =  3R & 4S are okay choices.
Orion-2M  =  2M is the best there is.
BattleMaster  =  4S is also okay but several others offer better options.

Way to much XL/LF engines & ammo to go pop IMHO.

[Lyran Archer]

1. Which is why I know Phell had 12,573, not 13,562, which is over 1000BV less than you had.

2. Simple math says he was putting down a lot more firepower than you which more than balances out the better to hit #s.

3. The issue most of us are seeing is in tactics because that firepower was not used to best effect.

4. Myself I also question the mech choices.

5. Way to much XL/LF engines & ammo to go pop IMHO.

1. My sincerest apologies, Hellraiser, to you and to Phell. You are correct and I was 1000 BV over.

2. Once that Nova got in close, my firepower was considerable and at ridiculously easy numbers to hit. It alone does 50 damage a turn, 42 of which only needed 4's to hit. The Kit Fox was successful in drawing the BattleMaster and one Caesar away from the main battle leaving only the other Caesar, Orion, and Cataphract which still needed much higher numbers and which were being also attacked by a Timber Wolf and a Dire Wolf.

3. Tactics and strategy are hard concepts to master. I read many other battle reports on these forums and see many other players other than Phell splitting their forces and no one jumps down their throats. When I read other batreps and see their pics my mind immediately explodes with flanking vectors and plans I would have used to isolate and destroy their units. In fact, my forces in this very battle were strung out and Phell could have ran his command lance at my Dire Wolf while the fire lance covered its attack. My mind was very much alive with the vulnerabilities of my own strategy. Gauss slugs often very narrowly missed my Kit Fox (roll of 11 but needed a 12, roll of 10 but neeeded 11) and the Kit Fox diversion was absolutely crucial to my strategy.

4. His 'Mech choices were not that glaringly bad - about 70% of people thought he would win. People scoff at my 'Mech choices when I take entire lances or a company of Archers, but I like to do that and often win with them.

5. The XL engine and ammo exploding issue - I have taken whole lances and even an entire company (see company vs company batrep) of Archer 5Ws to battle. The Archer 5W has an XL engine and is a powder keg of ammo. Yet, I have been very successful with them. Sometimes I lose with them. In my first six battles I lost seven Archers all due to ammo explosions. I've even had a perfectly good Archer simply fail a PSR, fall, and explode (fall on right side, snake-eyes for location, ammo crit, BOOM!). Yet, I still think the Archer is a great 'Mech and will continue to use them en masse. XL engines in no way deter my choice because IMHO the benefit of 8 or more tons to spend elsewhere on ammo and weapons is definately worth the risk.

[Hellraiser]

The Kit Fox was successful in drawing the BattleMaster and one Caesar away from the main battle
...............
3. Tactics and strategy are hard concepts to master. I read many other battle reports on these forums and see many other players other than Phell splitting their forces and no one jumps down their throats. When I read other batreps and see their pics my mind immediately explodes with flanking vectors and plans I would have used to isolate and destroy their units. In fact, my forces in this very battle were strung out and Phell could have ran his command lance at my Dire Wolf while the fire lance covered its attack. My mind was very much alive with the vulnerabilities of my own strategy. Gauss slugs often very narrowly missed my Kit Fox (roll of 11 but needed a 12, roll of 10 but neeeded 11) and the Kit Fox diversion was absolutely crucial to my strategy. 

I think that is the real issue we are all seeing.  He split forces in response to your feint.
The Kit Fox strategy worked, you pulled of 2 of his 3 largest mechs w/ your smallest BV ?
That isn't something that makes a lot of sense.
Its a slug fest against those clanners,  cram all 8 mechs down your throat and paste that which is the easiest target w/ massed fire.
If the Nova gets into MG range then you close with it w/ as many mechs as you can for kicks all the while devoting full massed guns.... and last but not least, when you have 4 gunners you DONT RUN, you walk or park to keep target #s low and stay close together in mutually supporting fields of fire.  Spreading out just invites clanners not using Zel to take you down piece by piece.
No one is jumping down throats, at least I hope we are not coming across that way.
Just pointing out things we see that could be done differently for better success, all part of improving & learning.

4. His 'Mech choices were not that glaringly bad - about 70% of people thought he would win.

I disagree, 4 of them were, and w/ smart tactics it STILL should have won.
In this case it was a less than stellar line up AND the force was split in 2 (or 3?).
Combined it proved to be complete reversal of what most predicted.
That there should tell you something was wrong with the tactics used.

[Lyran Archer]

No one is jumping down throats, at least I hope we are not coming across that way.
Just pointing out things we see that could be done differently for better success, all part of improving & learning.

And that's one of the biggest reasons for posting battle reports - to learn from the mistakes or successes of others. I read other people's batreps and often see strategies that I'd like to try or see mistakes that I will make sure I don't repeat. I also watch the Military Chanel and History Chanel and read books on military successes and blunders and try to incorporate what I learn.

People hear terms like "flanking", "diversion", and "divide and conquer", but don't understand how to actually implement that on the battlefield.

FLANKING - avoiding a frontal assault and hitting the enemy from the side where he is weaker.
People were right - if I had attacked in a frontal assault my Clan 'Mechs would have easily been destroyed. So, I deployed on the extreme sides of the map in the hopes of scurrying 'Mechs around his frontline lance. In our previous "Company vs Company" battle we both lined our dozen 'Mechs each up on opposite ends of the map but then I had my Lyran Archers do a sharp 90 degree right turn and concentrated on the enemy's left flank where the faster units were, leaving the slower enemy heavies and assaults completely out of the battle until the enemy scout 'Mechs had been destroyed.

DIVERSION - using a small part of your force to draw away a larger part of the enemy from the main battle.
As mentioned, the Kit Fox was a diversion and successfully drew most of the frontline 'Mechs away from the support 'Mechs.

DIVIDE AND CONQUER - aka "Defeat in Detail" - pick a small part of the enemy to destroy and try to isolate it from the main enemy force.
Once most of the frontline 'Mechs were drawn away, I chose to focus on the remaining defenders, then the support 'Mechs, and then by the time the BattleMaster and other Caesar got back from chasing the Kit Fox, the battle was over.

I also play tons of other tabletop games (40K, Star Wars Miniatures, BattleFleet Gothic, Lord of the Rings SBG and WotR, HorrorClix, etc.) and love to pull off a double envelopment (aka pincer) or some other difficult maneuver. I think it makes the game a lot more fun than just walking forward and rolling dice to hit. That's just relying on dice and force composition.