Thunderbolt missile

[anime ninja]

I have been getting back in to the system after being out for years and there are some new things that have come up.  One question I have is about the Thunderbolt Missile system, what is it good for?  It weights more then the LRM that it is designed to replace and it has less range and ammo.   What is the use of it?

[Weirdo]

Sometimes, you really want to deal damage in concentrated chunks instead of spread out clusters, and if you want to do that using missiles instead of energy or ballistic weapons, T-Bolts are your go-to.

[Maelwys]

It might be better to think of them as a longer range autocannon than a missile system. Their main purpose seems to be to get concentrated damage in a single location, instead of the multiple 5-point hits that the LRM provides. Unfortunately, they seem to have many drawbacks. The biggest being ammo count and their weakness against AMS.

On the other hand, if you have a GR with two tons of ammo, you can replace that with a Thunderbolt 15 and 4 tons of ammo and save 2 tons. Of course, you lose 4 hexes of range, your minimum range is 3 hexes longer and your shot can be destroyed by an AMS and you're gaining 7 heat instead of 2, but you uh, save 2 tons of weight (and have 3 fewer explosive crits than the GR).

[martian]

I have been getting back in to the system after being out for years and there are some new things that have come up.  One question I have is about the Thunderbolt Missile system, what is it good for?  It weights more then the LRM that it is designed to replace and it has less range and ammo.   What is the use of it?

Delivering concentrated damage may be useful sometimes. Thunderbolt 15 delivers the same damage as the Gauss Rifle, Thunderbolt 20 is as devastating as AC-20 autocannon. One big advantage of Thunderbolt missile is that it can be launched from cover, as standard LRMs would. So you don't have to be afraid of return fire.

You may test AV1-OI Avatar in battle. It's probably the most common 'Mech using higher calibre Thunderbolts. Of course, there's a brand new Orochi with twin Thunderbolts 20 too.

[Sartris]

Like C3, the Thunderbolt's success will be determined by what your opponent brings.  If you don't see a lot of AMS in your games, the Thunderbolt will perform well as long as you can dictate range. Otherwise you spend a lot of time jockeying for side angles... also remember that they do half damage inside minimum range.  On the plus side, they can be fired indirectly and you can hotload them like regular LRMs if you're feeling up to the risk

[evilauthor]

Like C3, the Thunderbolt's success will be determined by what your opponent brings.  If you don't see a lot of AMS in your games, the Thunderbolt will perform well as long as you can dictate range. Otherwise you spend a lot of time jockeying for side angles... also remember that they do half damage inside minimum range.  On the plus side, they can be fired indirectly and you can hotload them like regular LRMs if you're feeling up to the risk

And 20 damage at 18 hexes is nothing to sneer at, especially if you have a C3 spotter for the launcher.

Generally speaking, AMS has fallen out of favor among in-universe units as any gains in missile protection seem to be balanced by the tonnage consumed. This may change if Thunderbolts become more prominent.

Funnily enough, even though AMS works on Thunderbolts, a Thunderbolt missile still stands a 50/50 chance (or close enough) of penetrating AMS fire directed at it.

[StoneRhino]

The thing I like about thunderbolts, though I have not played using them before due to lack of games, is that they give you other options then AC20 or Gauss rifle. Someone did point out the heat related issue, but that only applies to mechs. Someone has mentioned the indirect fire, which is something neither of the other weapons can pull off. The range of the 20's has been mentioned, as well as the tonnage reduction vs the Gauss.


The chance of it being shot down is decent, but then again lrm launchers can be reduced to next to nothing while an srm launcher can be completely negated, so nothing new. Its just an awesome option to have that the clans do not, which is something that this game has been lacking in. Not bigger and better weapon, just weapons that give us additional options that the clans do not have.  Why would the clans bother with thundebolts when they can spam with lrm20s on the cheap? I just don't see how the clanners would be able to keep up with new ideas, not neccessarily "better" ideas.

[evilauthor]

The thing I like about thunderbolts, though I have not played using them before due to lack of games, is that they give you other options then AC20 or Gauss rifle. Someone did point out the heat related issue, but that only applies to mechs. Someone has mentioned the indirect fire, which is something neither of the other weapons can pull off. The range of the 20's has been mentioned, as well as the tonnage reduction vs the Gauss.


The chance of it being shot down is decent, but then again lrm launchers can be reduced to next to nothing while an srm launcher can be completely negated, so nothing new. Its just an awesome option to have that the clans do not, which is something that this game has been lacking in. Not bigger and better weapon, just weapons that give us additional options that the clans do not have.  Why would the clans bother with thundebolts when they can spam with lrm20s on the cheap? I just don't see how the clanners would be able to keep up with new ideas, not neccessarily "better" ideas.

IIRC, AMS can only engage one missile volley from one launcher per turn. If you houserule that the AMS engages the first thing thrown at it (how does AMS pick which missile volley to shoot at again?), you could screen your big Thunderbolt missile with an LRM-5 flight. The LRMs aren't there to add damage; they're there to soak up AMS fire that would otherwise have shot down the Thunderbolt.

[Orin J.]

Thunderbolts also suffer from terrible ammo per ton, which is why i figured we don't see more of them. they have some interesting potential, but the lacking ammo stores and weakness to AMS seems to turn people away from it.

[mbear]

IIRC, AMS can only engage one missile volley from one launcher per turn. If you houserule that the AMS engages the first thing thrown at it (how does AMS pick which missile volley to shoot at again?), you could screen your big Thunderbolt missile with an LRM-5 flight. The LRMs aren't there to add damage; they're there to soak up AMS fire that would otherwise have shot down the Thunderbolt.

Alternatively have an Archer or Crusader fire LRMs at the opponent until the AMS runs out of ammo then pound opponent with Thunderbolts.

[evilauthor]

Alternatively have an Archer or Crusader fire LRMs at the opponent until the AMS runs out of ammo then pound opponent with Thunderbolts.

Well if you're gonna do that, there's no need to waste LRM-20 volleys on it when you can use a smaller launcher (possibly on a lighter mech) to run the target out of AMS ammo.

[Colt Ward]

And if someone lets you do that they get what they deserve.

[mbear]

Well if you're gonna do that, there's no need to waste LRM-20 volleys on it when you can use a smaller launcher (possibly on a lighter mech) to run the target out of AMS ammo.

True. Amending statement:

"Alternatively, use a Thorn or Valkyrie to force target unit to use up AMS ammo, then pound with Thunderbolts."

Or Rocket Launchers. Lots and lots of them.

Of course if the unit has a Laser AMS, you're out of luck.

Thunderbolts also suffer from terrible ammo per ton, which is why i figured we don't see more of them. they have some interesting potential, but the lacking ammo stores and weakness to AMS seems to turn people away from it.

Semi-Guided Thunderbolts? Anti-Infantry Thunderbolts? Incendiary Thunderbolts?

[Gus]

Semi-Guided Thunderbolts? Anti-Infantry Thunderbolts? Incendiary Thunderbolts?

 [stupid]

This. Alternate ammunition types for Thunderbolts could be very interesting, and add some flavour to the weapon.

[evilauthor]

Semi-Guided Thunderbolts? Anti-Infantry Thunderbolts? Incendiary Thunderbolts?

Thunder Thunderbolts. Their large size makes them perfect for deploying mine fields. Or other submunitions for that matter.

DPCIM Thunderbolts? You're giving up the concentrated damage, but in return you get to pound everything inside a target hex with cluster bombs.

Streak Thunderbolts. To avoid out of control spiraling tonnage costs, Streak Thunderbolt missiles reduce some explosive payload in favor of additional guidance control equipment. They're large size and already considerable payload allows this.

Armored/Armor Piercing Thunderbolts. Mounts extra armor on the missile that reduces effective range and the number of missiles you get per ton, but all but guarantees the missile to be immune to AMS while also allowing a better chance of penetrating intact armor.

Nuclear Thunderbolts. Just because.  :D

[Maelwys]

Well, while the defending player can't tell the AMS to not fire, he can choose which missile weapon for it to engage, so no sneaking in a LRM5 to trigger the AMS so a Thunderbolt or LRM20 can slip in.

And with the new AMS rules, if you're firing off a LRM5 at me for 12 turns to eliminate my AMS ammo before shooting your Thunderbolts...I think I'd be perfectly fine with that.

[evilauthor]

Well, while the defending player can't tell the AMS to not fire, he can choose which missile weapon for it to engage, so no sneaking in a LRM5 to trigger the AMS so a Thunderbolt or LRM20 can slip in.

And with the new AMS rules, if you're firing off a LRM5 at me for 12 turns to eliminate my AMS ammo before shooting your Thunderbolts...I think I'd be perfectly fine with that.

Well, if I have the tonnage to try to use an LRM-5 to screen the fire of an LRM-20 or a Thunderbolt... why don't I just junk the latter and go with massed LRM-5 fire? An AMS is going to stop much less damage coming from four or five LRM-5s than it would on average from an LRM-20 or a Thunderbolt-15 or -20.

[Scotty]

Because sometimes you want hole-punching, and the Thunderbolt is the only indirect fire capable hole puncher.

[Colt Ward]

Artillery.

[Colt Ward]

Well, while the defending player can't tell the AMS to not fire, he can choose which missile weapon for it to engage, so no sneaking in a LRM5 to trigger the AMS so a Thunderbolt or LRM20 can slip in.

And with the new AMS rules, if you're firing off a LRM5 at me for 12 turns to eliminate my AMS ammo before shooting your Thunderbolts...I think I'd be perfectly fine with that.

Yes, they can turn the AMS off which means not firing.

As for your second statement . . . you are good with that in a campaign?  OK!

[Scotty]

Artillery.

"Only" outcrits the largest Thunderbolt launcher by a whopping 10 crits, and you're just plain outta luck if you don't have 15 tons to spare.  Thunderbolts can be smaller.  The Thunderbolt-15 operates in a niche that honestly no weapon can even compete with it.  It offers indirect fire, head-capping capability, decent range, and does it for less tonnage than things like Gauss Rifles and AC/20s.  The ammo is less than stellar, but it's not to the point of being totally useless.

[Hellraiser]

What is the use of it?

Aside from all the other reasons given above,  I have one word for you........... Tanks.

Between T-Bolts & MML's I don't think I will ever arm a tank with anything ever again.  (Maybe LBX)

[Colt Ward]

Dunno, I like the Plasma Rifle for fusion engined versions of the Saladin & SM1.  The idea of throwing damage and heat at a mech while melting everyone else makes me all warm & gooey outside.

[Hellraiser]

Dunno, I like the Plasma Rifle for fusion engined versions of the Saladin & SM1.  The idea of throwing damage and heat at a mech while melting everyone else makes me all warm & gooey outside.

Agreed it does.

But as you said, it requires a FE which I might not have, or added HS.

And I can get the same effect by using a mixture of Standard & Inferno ammo in my MML's or mixing T-Bolt & MML fire at the same target  (Range bands limited here)

For me, the best uses of the 10 SHS in a FE are a Trio of ML's or Pair of ERML's.
After that its missile spam love.

[ShadowRaven]

Yep. 'cheap' ICE or fuel cell powered vees with T-Bolts hiding behind cover can really mess up someones day

[idea weenie]

Thunder Thunderbolts. Their large size makes them perfect for deploying mine fields. Or other submunitions for that matter.

DPCIM Thunderbolts? You're giving up the concentrated damage, but in return you get to pound everything inside a target hex with cluster bombs.

Streak Thunderbolts. To avoid out of control spiraling tonnage costs, Streak Thunderbolt missiles reduce some explosive payload in favor of additional guidance control equipment. They're large size and already considerable payload allows this.

Armored/Armor Piercing Thunderbolts. Mounts extra armor on the missile that reduces effective range and the number of missiles you get per ton, but all but guarantees the missile to be immune to AMS while also allowing a better chance of penetrating intact armor.

Nuclear Thunderbolts. Just because.  :D

I'd argue that since Streak guidance doesn't affect warhead size on a SRM, then it won't affect the warhead size on a Thunderbolt.

But I'll add Swarm to the list above.  Essentially, you roll to-hit against the target.  If you miss, you roll to-hits against closer targets until you get to the limit of Swarm radius.  Essentially the same rules as current Swarm, just without rolling on the Cluster table.

As for Thunderbolt vs artillery comparison, Thunderbolt missiles do less damage, have shorter range, and mass more than an Arrow IV missile.  The Thunderbolt-20 masses the same as IS Arrow IV launcher, but is 1/3 the size, so the launcher making up the difference (somehow) isn't possible.  Thunderbolt-15 is 1 ton lighter than the Clan Arrow IV, but only 1/4 the size.

Personally, I'd be happier with Thunderbolts getting more damage per ton of ammo than LRM (180 pts/ton?), due to larger missiles being more efficient than smaller (only one guidance system needed, surface area determines drag vs volume determining fuel supply/warhead strength).

Of course, AMS would still shoot them down.  Perhaps a jammer pack could be developed for Thunderbolt, so AMS requires additional shots due to shooting at decoys, or is less likely to shoot the missile down?

[Sami Jumppanen]

Yep. 'cheap' ICE or fuel cell powered vees with T-Bolts hiding behind cover can really mess up someones day

In practice Quicksell makes a new version of their 60 ton weapon carrier.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Thunder Thunderbolts. Their large size makes them perfect for deploying mine fields. Or other submunitions for that matter.

DPCIM Thunderbolts? You're giving up the concentrated damage, but in return you get to pound everything inside a target hex with cluster bombs.

Streak Thunderbolts. To avoid out of control spiraling tonnage costs, Streak Thunderbolt missiles reduce some explosive payload in favor of additional guidance control equipment. They're large size and already considerable payload allows this.

Armored/Armor Piercing Thunderbolts. Mounts extra armor on the missile that reduces effective range and the number of missiles you get per ton, but all but guarantees the missile to be immune to AMS while also allowing a better chance of penetrating intact armor.

Nuclear Thunderbolts. Just because.  :D

Thunderbolt ASROCs.

[Andras]

I really want NARC homing Thunderbolts. Once a target is tagged with a beacon you can IDF w/o a spotter.

[Shatara]

[stupid]

This. Alternate ammunition types for Thunderbolts could be very interesting, and add some flavour to the weapon.

I've actually had some ideas taken down for a while. Maybe I'll get around to posting them on the fanrules board.

Thunder Thunderbolts.

HOOOOO!!  :D

[False Son]

The thing I like about thunderbolts, though I have not played using them before due to lack of games, is that they give you other options then AC20 or Gauss rifle. Someone did point out the heat related issue, but that only applies to mechs. Someone has mentioned the indirect fire, which is something neither of the other weapons can pull off. The range of the 20's has been mentioned, as well as the tonnage reduction vs the Gauss.

To compare it to the GR, a Tbolt 15 is 3 crits vs 6, a Tbolt 20 is 5 crits.  In addition to be non explosive, it takes up fewer crits.  The low ammo per ton will create some issues with that, however.  Compared to an AC20 the differences become huuuuuuuge. So, I would say the real advantage of Tbolts is their damage to tonnage rates and their low crit space requirement.  Pair this with some weight saving tech like ES and you can get around the low ammo per ton.  Just stay away from the Tbolt 10.  Not a good weapon.  Even the Tbolt 5 is a passable weapon. 

If you're going to mount it on a tank there's a fun matching of the standard PPC and Tbolt ranges.  The ammo per ton thing becomes a strange issue because of the lack of tonnage saving techs for tanks other than XL and Light engines, which have no drawbacks for tanks in combat.  Vs a GR... are weapon crits more common than ammo crits?  I suppose that's really the question for me.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

They're not.  However, it's slightly easier to guard against weapon crits since there's a 50/50 chance of whether the attacker or the controller chooses which weapon takes the crit if there's more than one weapon in the location.  With an ammo crit, it wipes out all the ammo on the vehicle.

[Hellraiser]

Just stay away from the Tbolt 10.  Not a good weapon. 

What makes you say that ?

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Because if you're going to use a 10 point damage weapon that has a range of 18 hexes, you might as well use a PPC.

[Weirdo]

There's something to be said for a PPC that can shoot over hills...

[SCC]

If you're going to mount it on a tank there's a fun matching of the standard PPC and Tbolt ranges.  The ammo per ton thing becomes a strange issue because of the lack of tonnage saving techs for tanks other than XL and Light engines, which have no drawbacks for tanks in combat.  Vs a GR... are weapon crits more common than ammo crits?  I suppose that's really the question for me.

cough*FF*cough

They're not.  However, it's slightly easier to guard against weapon crits since there's a 50/50 chance of whether the attacker or the controller chooses which weapon takes the crit if there's more than one weapon in the location.  With an ammo crit, it wipes out all the ammo on the vehicle.

Weapon explosions in tanks can also get weird when CASE is involved, GR in turret goes up? Rear armor stripped off

Because if you're going to use a 10 point damage weapon that has a range of 18 hexes, you might as well use a PPC.

In tanks, the kings of ammo weapons not so

As for the weapons itself, it's a really odd design, normally as launchers get bigger they throw more missiles, not bigger ones, it doesn't compete with much, yet it's gimped like most but not all non-intro weapons

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Weapon explosions in tanks can also get weird when CASE is involved, GR in turret goes up? Rear armor stripped off

I don't have my book handy, but I'm pretty sure that CASE only helps vehicles against actually ammo explosions and has no effect on explosive weapon crits.

In tanks, the kings of ammo weapons, not so

Fine, use an LB-10X.

[Diablo48]

In practice Quicksell makes a new version of their 60 ton weapon carrier.

Do we have a canon Thunderbolt carrier yet?  That would be a useful way to mount them because it lets you save tonnage in armor while still delivering 15 or 20 point bricks.

[mbear]

Do we have a canon Thunderbolt carrier yet?  That would be a useful way to mount them because it lets you save tonnage in armor while still delivering 15 or 20 point bricks.

I'm not aware of a conventional vehicle that uses Thunderbolts as its main armament. TRO3085 has that one Draconis Combine Mech that I can't remember now.

Ah, the Orochi.

[Martius]

The Light Thunderbolt Carrier in RS 3060 Unabridged is armed with 5 turreted Thunderbolt 5.

The Demolisher II Heavy Tank (Thunderbolt) which can be found in the same volume carries two turreted Thunderbolt 20s.

[Youngblood]

Do we have a canon Thunderbolt carrier yet?  That would be a useful way to mount them because it lets you save tonnage in armor while still delivering 15 or 20 point bricks.

There's an omni config of the Schiltron with twin T-bolt-15s, AND a lot of MMLs on top of the usual electronic equipment it has.

In TRO Prototypes, the Challenger Mk. XVc, before it got cut down into the Mk. XV, had an extra T-bolt-15 on it.

And lastly, there's a Demolisher II with twin T-bolt-20s along with a few other weapons.  It has about five tons more armor than the original, like you were thinking.

EDIT: Roosterboy'd

[Sabelkatten]

The classic 60-ton carrier could pack twin 20s with 6 shots each. I'd probably go with one 15 and one 20 thought, giving 12 and 15 shots respectively.

[False Son]

What makes you say that ?

I may be focused too much on the idea that 2 Tbolt 5s would be 6 tons, but a Tbolt 10 is 7 tons.  Maybe the 1 less heat for the 10 is a better sell.  There just seems to be such a threshold on the 15.  The 10 occupies a middle ground that is just...meh.  For less than 50% more tonnage the 15 can head cap.  BV would be the right thing to focus on?  A 10 is only 127 vs the 229 of the 15.  Maybe i'm just being overly critical.

Because if you're going to use a 10 point damage weapon that has a range of 18 hexes, you might as well use a PPC.

If you have a fusion engine, sure.  7 tons for a PPC vs a minimum of 8 with the Tbolt, which has a min range of 5 vs the PPC's 3.  But, after the first 10 heat sinks are eaten by the PPC, sure, Tbolt is your friend.

[Weirdo]

To me, the concentrated damage of T-bolts is what makes them interesting, so I'm more likely to prefer a single T-bolt 10 over twin T-bolt 5s.

[Shatara]

Because if you're going to use a 10 point damage weapon that has a range of 18 hexes, you might as well use a PPC.

The same could be said for the 5 and 15. Doesn't make them bad weapons.

I don't have my book handy, but I'm pretty sure that CASE only helps vehicles against actually ammo explosions and has no effect on explosive weapon crits.

I don't see any indication that explosive weapons are treated any differently from an ammo explosion.

Fine, use an LB-10X.

LB10X is heavier. And can't indirect fire.

To me, the concentrated damage of T-bolts is what makes them interesting, so I'm more likely to prefer a single T-bolt 10 over twin T-bolt 5s.

What he said. The 5 just has too much competition in the 5-point hit department. Thunderbolts are all about concentrated hits, so bringing less than the biggest missile you can seems like a waste.

[SCC]

The AXM-6X and -6T both use twins TB-15's