Author Topic: Arrow IV Tactics  (Read 8288 times)

Alex Keller

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Arrow IV Tactics
« on: 10 April 2013, 12:20:39 »
When using Arrow IV artillery, isn't it relatively easy to make a direct line of sight attacking the hex with an enemy unit rather than attacking the unit directly with a spotter or a standard indirect artillery attack? I'm thinking about the most effective way to use a mech like the CPLT-C3 or C5.

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Re: Arrow IV Tactics
« Reply #1 on: 10 April 2013, 12:33:08 »
The most effective way is to use TAG and Homing ammo.  Upon a desgination, you get low, low numbers to hit, maximum armor-slagging single-cluster hit when you need it, maximum hex-exploding when you don't.

If your table's players allow it, you can TAG hexes too.

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Re: Arrow IV Tactics
« Reply #2 on: 10 April 2013, 12:39:58 »
Why can't you just TAG hexes anyway? Thanks.

guardiandashi

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Re: Arrow IV Tactics
« Reply #3 on: 10 April 2013, 12:43:14 »
When using Arrow IV artillery, isn't it relatively easy to make a direct line of sight attacking the hex with an enemy unit rather than attacking the unit directly with a spotter or a standard indirect artillery attack? I'm thinking about the most effective way to use a mech like the CPLT-C3 or C5.

yes and no

in my experience each round is intended for a specific purpose

the big advantage of aoe rounds is they splash damage on every unit in the hex under some interpetations of this this means these rounds are DEVISTATING to infantry (and ba) units, ie if you do 20 points in 5 point clusters to each suit in a stand of battle armor ..... then they go "squish like grape"

on the other hand homing rounds if they hit, are like hitting the designated unit with an ac20 round per each missile

tagging puts a homing round on the target so whatever got tagged is eating a 20 point hit  (its why my group has a phrase when we not a successful designation "TAG, you're dead"

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Re: Arrow IV Tactics
« Reply #4 on: 10 April 2013, 12:48:04 »
Because the rules are ambiguous.
But we're hoping to fix that:
http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php/topic,18161.msg644121.html#msg644121

Paul
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Youngblood

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Re: Arrow IV Tactics
« Reply #5 on: 10 April 2013, 12:56:58 »
Why can't you just TAG hexes anyway? Thanks.

Don't thank me, that's totally rude and uncalled for and I hate your guts now, meanie.

There was another rewording of the rules that also made it clear that TAG was only useable for Semi-Guided LRMs and Arrow IV Homing, in case you were wondering.

Alex Keller

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Re: Arrow IV Tactics
« Reply #6 on: 10 April 2013, 13:19:22 »
Does this ambiguity apply to indirect LRM fire at hexes with infantry?

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Re: Arrow IV Tactics
« Reply #7 on: 10 April 2013, 13:20:25 »
Does this ambiguity apply to indirect LRM fire at hexes with infantry?

No, it's not ambiguous that this is not permitted. What rules make you think you can?
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Re: Arrow IV Tactics
« Reply #8 on: 10 April 2013, 13:26:47 »
Does this ambiguity apply to indirect LRM fire at hexes with infantry?

If you wanted to kill infantry with LRMs, you can use Mine-Clearing LRMs which are for targeting hexes anyways.

e: or Incendiary LRMs, those kill more of them if they stay in the hex on fire.
« Last Edit: 10 April 2013, 13:30:29 by Youngblood »

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Re: Arrow IV Tactics
« Reply #9 on: 10 April 2013, 13:38:22 »
Does this ambiguity apply to indirect LRM fire at hexes with infantry?

You can always fire LRMs at the ground, but unless you've got some kind of AE ammo*, you don't be hurting any infantry(or anyone else) in the area.

*Okay, if you do enough damage, you can force a fall by shooting the ground out from under them.
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Re: Arrow IV Tactics
« Reply #10 on: 10 April 2013, 13:44:00 »
Don't thank me, that's totally rude and uncalled for and I hate your guts now, meanie.

There was another rewording of the rules that also made it clear that TAG was only useable for Semi-Guided LRMs and Arrow IV Homing, in case you were wondering.
Wait, you don't get a bonus for using a TAG unit in conjunction with Laser-Guided Bombs now? 

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Re: Arrow IV Tactics
« Reply #11 on: 10 April 2013, 13:45:31 »
Well, a unit is always permitted to attack a ground hex, right? The question is whether the ground attack will damage a unit in that hex.

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Re: Arrow IV Tactics
« Reply #12 on: 10 April 2013, 13:47:30 »
Wait, you don't get a bonus for using a TAG unit in conjunction with Laser-Guided Bombs now?

They still get that, people just forget and don't mention it because they're taunting us. Same reason few people mention TAG's compatibility with ALL capital-scale weapons.

Well, a unit is always permitted to attack a ground hex, right? The question is whether the ground attack will damage a unit in that hex.

That question is easily answered. Is the weapon AE?

If no: No damage except to the ground.

If yes: Damage to all units in affected hexes.
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Re: Arrow IV Tactics
« Reply #13 on: 10 April 2013, 13:55:34 »
If yes: Damage to all units in affected hexes.

...and the ground.  :D


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Re: Arrow IV Tactics
« Reply #14 on: 10 April 2013, 13:56:23 »
They still get that, people just forget and don't mention it because they're taunting us. Same reason few people mention TAG's compatibility with ALL capital-scale weapons.
That's good to hear, I was afraid some mudbug had gotten to Herb or Ben and convinced them to start nerfing Fighters, especially considering how much more dangerous than Warships they are to ground forces, and we all know about Herb's fascination with Warships.


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Re: Arrow IV Tactics
« Reply #15 on: 10 April 2013, 13:57:09 »
Yes. And the ground itself. 8)
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Re: Arrow IV Tactics
« Reply #16 on: 10 April 2013, 14:30:50 »
TAG . . . and Copperheads?
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Re: Arrow IV Tactics
« Reply #17 on: 10 April 2013, 14:45:14 »
I lump those in with Homing Arrow, but yes, those still work.
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Alex Keller

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Re: Arrow IV Tactics
« Reply #18 on: 10 April 2013, 14:54:36 »
So it seems the most effective use of Arrow IV artillery is to just target the ground beneath a unit rather than worrying about attacking the actual unit.

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Re: Arrow IV Tactics
« Reply #19 on: 10 April 2013, 14:58:31 »
If your table's players allow it, you can TAG hexes too.

Why would you be able to TAG a hex ?

What could would it do to TAG a hex ?
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Re: Arrow IV Tactics
« Reply #20 on: 10 April 2013, 14:59:01 »
Depends what you consider effective. You'll only do 5 damage to the unit(s) in that hex.
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Re: Arrow IV Tactics
« Reply #21 on: 10 April 2013, 15:35:26 »
So it seems the most effective use of Arrow IV artillery is to just target the ground beneath a unit rather than worrying about attacking the actual unit.

Depends what you consider effective. You'll only do 5 damage to the unit(s) in that hex.

What he said. Homing Arrow IV does 20 damage to the object being TAGged, and 5 damage to everything else in that hex. Therefore, if you TAG the hex, you'll do 20 damage to the ground, and 5 damage to any units on said ground. Not the most efficient thing to do, but there are some uses.

Why would you be able to TAG a hex ?

TAG is at it's core a fancy laser designator, right? (EXREMELY fancy, but that's not important right now.) Therefore, if you point said laser at the ground, then the ground is TAGged, and weapons homing in on said TAG dot will go after the ground.

Quote
What could would it do to TAG a hex ?
I can think of a few situations where it'd be a good idea to TAG a hex instead of a unit.

LGBs do a flat 10 damage to everything in the hex no matter what they strike in said hex. Therefore, you could TAG the hex containing an enemy unit instead of the unit itself for much easier to-hit numbers for the TAG, making it easier to strike the units in the hex.

If you have a large number of S-Gs, LGBs, Homing Arrows, and other such weapons, you can TAG an elevated hex and easily inflict enough damage to reduce it by a level(I call this creative terraforming). It takes a LOT of firepower(200 damage or so), but I'm sure you can see the benefits of being able to remove an unneeded hill hex rapidly, allowing your forces to pass through an area far faster than your enemy would expect you to do(especially if you have a lot of non-'mech units in your force, who usually hate hills with a passion).

Homing Arrows may only do 5 AE damage, but that can still be enough sometimes. TAG a hex containing small and fast units(or any BA at all), and even if you're only doing 5 damage to them, that's an easy 5 damage, as opposed to trying to hit a superfast unit directly.

Because hexes are immobile and thus receive the -4 to-hit modifier, you can reliably succeed the TAG roll from long range. This can be very handy if the area contains very dangerous enemies you don't want to get close to, or if the ordnance you're calling down has a very large blast radius, such as an orbital strike. (Because ortillery drift is based on your margin of failure, bringing the to-hit down with TAG is a very good idea even if you don't hit the target hex. The lower the to-hit, the lower your MoF is likely to be, and thus lower odds of the shot drifting very far, or onto your own forces.)
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guardiandashi

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Re: Arrow IV Tactics
« Reply #22 on: 10 April 2013, 16:42:25 »
or to echo what wierdo said...

sometimes you want to make really totally certain that the tree thats in your way is dead... (and a tree is a lot easier to target with tag, than the evil chipmunk in said tree......)

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Re: Arrow IV Tactics
« Reply #23 on: 10 April 2013, 21:50:06 »
Hi,

That's good to hear, I was afraid some mudbug had gotten to Herb or Ben and convinced them to start nerfing Fighters, especially considering how much more dangerous than Warships they are to ground forces, and we all know about Herb's fascination with Warships.

Don't worry; we'll get there.

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Re: Arrow IV Tactics
« Reply #24 on: 11 April 2013, 04:39:18 »
What you get with Arrow IV is flexibility .  You have to field 6 launchers in a battle for best effect .
With 6 Launchers using standard rounds you have a 10 % chance most cases of doing damage
to the enemy on a miss just from the area covered . That is 3 Shiltrons or O Bakemonos .
Those are among the best choices .  I am partial to the Anvil 8M also .  On Board direct
fire with an Arrow IV is Gunnery +5 .  One tactic is to do night combat and use Illumination
Rounds on the enemy  side of the board so you do not have a night penalty but they do.
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a smack down .  I have launching units around my drop ship with ADA rounds to prevent
any aerospace air strike .  The Anvil 8M also has MASC so it can get to on board range so
you do not waste as much Homing ammo as you might  otherwise .  The only customization
you might want to do is remove head Med laser and put in a C3 slave and remove the
ECM suite and add armor to the arms and torso to bring it closer to maximum.

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Re: Arrow IV Tactics
« Reply #25 on: 11 April 2013, 06:54:04 »
I find three or four launchers to be sufficient for my needs. The trick is not to aim for a single 'mech, but to aim at a lance. They don't have to be very tightly grouped, just aim for the rough center of any group you see(or roughly where you think the group will be in the case of multi-turn shots), and odds are actually pretty good that you'll do decent damage to something. It's gotten to the point that I actually do not want to hit the hex I'm aiming at, since more often than not said hex will be empty.
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Re: Arrow IV Tactics
« Reply #26 on: 11 April 2013, 07:27:47 »
Clearly Weirdo  has some experience with Artillery .  I forgot to mention If you are one of the many groups
that use heroscape terrain you  have to put down a reference token .  On Multi -  Turn  flight times for
artillery you can write down something like direction 1  ; 18 Hexes ; then direction 2 ; 3 hexes . Sometimes
it is harder for less delineated combat boards where 2 inches = a hex .  You still need a reference spot
but it is a lot harder to conceal the spot you are designating and hard to gauge distances . Weirdo may
get more milage from  Long Toms instead as he uses few pieces  in the first place.  With heroscape battles
it is not unusual for maps being 40+ hexes long and 21+ hexes wide . The scale of most battlefield seem
to be 34 +  Hexes long and  30 + wide . The size of the field of battle does impact Ono's perspective . I
use heroscape of late as a consequence the number of Arrow IV to get the same result as some using
paper or cardboard map boards is higher .

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Re: Arrow IV Tactics
« Reply #27 on: 11 April 2013, 09:49:43 »
What he said. Homing Arrow IV does 20 damage to the object being TAGged, and 5 damage to everything else in that hex. Therefore, if you TAG the hex, you'll do 20 damage to the ground, and 5 damage to any units on said ground. Not the most efficient thing to do, but there are some uses.
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Re: Arrow IV Tactics
« Reply #28 on: 11 April 2013, 10:00:05 »
Ah, yes. TAG can be very nice for bridge-popping. O0
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Re: Arrow IV Tactics
« Reply #29 on: 11 April 2013, 10:46:44 »
So it seems the most effective use of Arrow IV artillery is to just target the ground beneath a unit rather than worrying about attacking the actual unit.

*raised eyebrow*

Trust me when I say this.  TAG when used with A4 is much much better than just blasting hexes.  The trick is to make sure your TAG carriers are redundant to ensure the best chance of success on arrival.  A4 when used en masse on a large playing surface (such as 3x3) when you time it correctly can cause an incredible amount of damage and demoralization when you drop 21 rounds on them at once.
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Re: Arrow IV Tactics
« Reply #30 on: 11 April 2013, 11:45:08 »
Does the new a4 trailers require a crew to function, or they can be fired from the vehicle they are attached?
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Re: Arrow IV Tactics
« Reply #31 on: 11 April 2013, 12:00:42 »
Does the new a4 trailers require a crew to function, or they can be fired from the vehicle they are attached?

The tractor can operate the trailer when attached. if the trailer is supposed to operate independently, it needs an engine (10 rated) and a crew. All trailers in TRO3145M are built to work independent from a tractor.
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Re: Arrow IV Tactics
« Reply #32 on: 11 April 2013, 12:01:08 »
I should add: p.101 of TM covers that.
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Re: Arrow IV Tactics
« Reply #33 on: 11 April 2013, 12:24:56 »
Okay, a new twist to my original question. What if there is no spotter? What's the best way for an artillery mech such as the Catault to fight another mech with no spotter?

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Re: Arrow IV Tactics
« Reply #34 on: 11 April 2013, 12:37:14 »
Okay, a new twist to my original question. What if there is no spotter? What's the best way for an artillery mech such as the Catault to fight another mech with no spotter?

Given the ammo on most Catapults, I'd say just direct fire em all until you run dry, evaluate how much is left of the opponent at that point, and finish the job with lasers.
The C3 likely won't land enough shots, the C5 might. A lot depends on the speed of the target; the closer it gets, the greater the odds of you taking damage.

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Re: Arrow IV Tactics
« Reply #35 on: 11 April 2013, 12:42:41 »
I'd go for direct fire at that point. You can fire indirectly with no problems(It's still artillery, after all), but if you've only got one or two tubes and/or are trying to hit a single 'mech, your odds are not very good. Direct fire has lower mods, so you've got better chances of hitting that target. If you're dealing with a larger force with multiple tubes but no spotters, treat it like gun artillery, firing salvos on groups like I described earlier.

Also, I'm assuming that by spotter, you mean TAG. If you actuall mean artillery spotting, my advice would be to dispense with them anyway unless your opponent is somehow tied to a fixed position. I've found that most battletech games are far too fluid to waste time walking fire onto a given hex. If you shoot and miss, then just move on. Odds of the enemy staying there for the next two or three turns are extremely low unless it's a position they HAVE to defend, such as a building, DropShip, or bridge.
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Re: Arrow IV Tactics
« Reply #36 on: 11 April 2013, 18:02:03 »
If you have a large number of S-Gs, LGBs, Homing Arrows, and other such weapons, you can TAG an elevated hex and easily inflict enough damage to reduce it by a level(I call this creative terraforming). It takes a LOT of firepower(200 damage or so), but I'm sure you can see the benefits of being able to remove an unneeded hill hex rapidly, allowing your forces to pass through an area far faster than your enemy would expect you to do(especially if you have a lot of non-'mech units in your force, who usually hate hills with a passion).

If I did this and the hex has an enemy force postioned on said hex, would the enemy fail a piloting roll and fall a level as in basement rules?

I like to understand more this creative terraforming you speak of.

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Re: Arrow IV Tactics
« Reply #37 on: 11 April 2013, 18:11:45 »
p.64 of TO is your friend. Short: PSR +3, if you fail, you fall in to the hex that the destroyed terrain is being displaced in to. If this is lower, the fall hurts more. Collapsing terrain likes to fall in to lower hexes, if there's any available.

THEN you apply the damage of the terrain that's displacing to all units in the target hex, including the Mech who just fell there. This damage is the TF at the start of the turn (200 if undamaged) / 5, so 40 damage in 5 point groups. To all units in the target hex.

Important safety tip: a clear hex can only support tonnage equal to it's TF x 2.
So, a 50 ton 'Mech in a hex reduced to 24 TF = collapse, just like a building.
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Re: Arrow IV Tactics
« Reply #38 on: 11 April 2013, 18:38:47 »
Paul?

Where are these rules for TF?

Just asking...  }:)

TT
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Paul

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Re: Arrow IV Tactics
« Reply #39 on: 11 April 2013, 19:55:39 »
Paul?

Where are these rules for TF?

Just asking...  }:)

TT

Page 64 of Tactical Operations.

Now, final remark: on some maps, it's possible to set up a cascade landslide, such that your target(s) aren't even in the hex you're bombing, but 1-2 hexes away.

That's not easy to set up, but certainly not impossible neither. Most maps, such cascades rely on you getting lucky with random movement.

Oh, and all AE damage (artillery, some other weapons) ignore the TF of every feature except the hex itself; trying to do this with lasers means you have to kill all the tree armor off the hex first...

Paul
The solution is just ignore Paul.

ItsTehPope

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Re: Arrow IV Tactics
« Reply #40 on: 11 April 2013, 20:25:31 »
Page 64 of Tactical Operations.

Now, final remark: on some maps, it's possible to set up a cascade landslide, such that your target(s) aren't even in the hex you're bombing, but 1-2 hexes away.

That's not easy to set up, but certainly not impossible neither. Most maps, such cascades rely on you getting lucky with random movement.

Oh, and all AE damage (artillery, some other weapons) ignore the TF of every feature except the hex itself; trying to do this with lasers means you have to kill all the tree armor off the hex first...

Paul

*removed due to inaccurate use of rules*
« Last Edit: 11 April 2013, 20:38:58 by ItsTehPope »
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Paul

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Re: Arrow IV Tactics
« Reply #41 on: 11 April 2013, 20:28:22 »
Cool, the rules don't seem to make that possible, though reality certainly does. Vicious, I approve.
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ItsTehPope

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Re: Arrow IV Tactics
« Reply #42 on: 11 April 2013, 20:38:36 »
Cool, the rules don't seem to make that possible, though reality certainly does. Vicious, I approve.

Sumbitch, PM me where I got that wrong.
If you actually care to listen to my thoughts outside of Battletech, find me at www.uselessblot.com

(4:37:55 PM) moonsword134: You're a bastard.
(4:38:11 PM) moonsword134: And so's the talking whiskey monkey who lives in bottles of tequila to give you ideas.

(4:52:52 PM) ShinjoJinturi: simply by having tag on the field, even in a game that appears to not have any lrms or arrows on the board, you can inspire fear

Paul

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Re: Arrow IV Tactics
« Reply #43 on: 11 April 2013, 20:39:59 »
Will do. I could be totally wrong too, of course.

Paul
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ItsTehPope

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Re: Arrow IV Tactics
« Reply #44 on: 11 April 2013, 20:40:49 »
Will do. I could be totally wrong too, of course.

Paul

Its been a few years since I pulled that off...I may also be remembering incorrectly.
If you actually care to listen to my thoughts outside of Battletech, find me at www.uselessblot.com

(4:37:55 PM) moonsword134: You're a bastard.
(4:38:11 PM) moonsword134: And so's the talking whiskey monkey who lives in bottles of tequila to give you ideas.

(4:52:52 PM) ShinjoJinturi: simply by having tag on the field, even in a game that appears to not have any lrms or arrows on the board, you can inspire fear

Taron Storm

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Re: Arrow IV Tactics
« Reply #45 on: 15 April 2013, 20:26:45 »
Another tactic I have used, especially with Shiltrons, is to fire both a FASCAM and an AIV-Inferno into the same hex.  The nasty part of the inferno rounds is that they create a 7 hex fire that lasts the entire game.  Couple that with the mines, and you can corral your enemies to be where you want them to be.  Can be very effective in, say, sealing a pass to prevent enemy cavalry, infantry, and some mechs from using it.

As mentioned above, homing rounds are quite effective on manmade terrain features.  Bridges, buildings, gun emplacements, fortified hexes for vehicles and infantry.

Oh, another good one for you.  FASCAM rounds on runways and roadways.

A few years ago, I created an artillery plotting board for use with 3D terrain.  The grid is setup for a 4' x 8' table and has 1" squares.  On the reverse side, it has the tables and a page listing to find the rules.  I should try to get around to updating it sometime.

 

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