Re-engineered Lasers

[Arkansas Warrior]

No.

[ColBosch]

One of which is FerroFibrous/Aluminum which is also used by mechs.

Different material, same game effects.

So I'm wondering if ships can be designed with Reflective, Reactive, Hardened, etc etc. I know Ferro-Lamellar was derived from Warship armor; does that mean you can now put it on Dropships and Jumpships too?

Not as of right now.

[SCC]

One of which is FerroFibrous/Aluminum which is also used by mechs.

So I'm wondering if ships can be designed with Reflective, Reactive, Hardened, etc etc. I know Ferro-Lamellar was derived from Warship armor; does that mean you can now put it on Dropships and Jumpships too?

Lamellar Ferro-Carbide is legal to mount the SS and JS, but not DS. As DS seem to use small unit armoring rules so they should be able to mount Ferro-Lamellar, I don't know why they can't.

Lamellar FC doesn't have the effects on WS that it does on 'Mechs, it provides a flat per-ton boost to armor

[Maskerade]

Also bear in mind that Lamellor Ferro-Carbide armour is only available in capital scale (1pt capital = 10pts normal), is described (in the flavour text of the Battlespace entry as being very bulky, and supremely costly.

[CloaknDagger]

So my theory is that there will never be Clan tech Relasers because they would be great.

[Nahuris]

It's a good niche weapon, and it fills a role against the newer armors.... and it also shows that there is some progression starting to happen in battletech.

Personally, seeing as how many people have been making Vtols with reflective armor, lately, then maybe the idea of reLasers with a TComp isn't a bad idea.
And it gives you a unit to deal with all the reflective BA running around.
So, they are heavy, and against lower tech opponents, not as effective as spamming regular lasers..... how is that a surprise?
Modern, advanced, vehicles have been having problems with RPG's ---- and it wasn't until we refitted them with slat armor that we were able to counter that.... as our modern combat vehicles were vulnerable to WW2 tech... while the advanced weapons found themselves at a loss with less than modern opponents.

I see these encouraging people to take a mix of forces.... which fits the in-universe feel for the game.

Nahuris

[CloaknDagger]

Personally, seeing as how many people have been making Vtols with reflective armor, lately, then maybe the idea of reLasers with a TComp isn't a bad idea.

It is. Reflective VTOLs usually carry a long range weapon, even the 15 range large won't be able to hit it.

[Diablo48]

Personally, seeing as how many people have been making Vtols with reflective armor, lately, then maybe the idea of reLasers with a TComp isn't a bad idea.

That is really not a good solution, although I am really not sure why you think reflective armor for VTOLs is a problem in the first place.  The primary weapons for shooting them down have always been the LB-X series and HAG series along with some more advanced alternatives like the Silver Bullet Gauss Rifle, and none of those are affected by reflective armor.  Really the only weapon they get a real advantage against is the Clan LPL, but the Clans have the HAG-40 which will convert most VTOLs into a pile of flaming scrap metal with a single shot so the LPL is half way to improvisation anyways.

[I am Belch II]

It seems like some new tech that got to play in the field of battle. On paper they don't seem that good or better.

[Gus]

It seems like some new tech that got to play in the field of battle. On paper they don't seem that good or better.

IMHO they're a very niche weapon; they have a very interesting benefit at a very hefty penalty.

[Maskerade]

You use RE lasers like you use TC SRMs, heat seeking LRMs, dead-fire missiles and flak autocannon shells.

They're niche weapons designed to counter a specific threat, and do so fairly well. However, they suffer agains everything else because of it, and if you try to use them outside of their intended role, you're going to end up with a sub-par weapon system.

RE lasers are not the new "wonder lasers" some people seem to think they should be, and that's great. They also counter some serious threats on the battlefield such as hardened armour pillboxes. It's for this reason that they don't need to be better, they need to be different, and they do that well.

I can guarantee that were they just like standard lasers (weight, size, heat, damage), but ignored F-L and hardened armour, people would be crying OP faster than you could say "I told you so"

[Sabelkatten]

As shown very early the only ReLaser that gets a significant benefit against anything is the Large - and the IS large laser isn't exactly the most effective weapon in the game (IMHO it's not as bad as some paint it, but then I think the IS MPL is pretty OK too).

I can see the use of the heavy in AT2, but in ground combat they're much like clan heavy lasers - useful for gaming the BV system, but not much else.

The big problem compared to special ammo is that ammo is quickly changed - in some cases it's workable to do it during a fight! - but a specialized weapon needs quite some time even on an omnimech. And if you don't have omnis? Drag your units back to the repair depot to refit them with new weapons when the enemy rotates a new company to your front?

[Arkansas Warrior]

You use RE lasers like you use TC SRMs, heat seeking LRMs, dead-fire missiles and flak autocannon shells.

They're niche weapons designed to counter a specific threat, and do so fairly well. However, they suffer agains everything else because of it, and if you try to use them outside of their intended role, you're going to end up with a sub-par weapon system.

RE lasers are not the new "wonder lasers" some people seem to think they should be, and that's great. They also counter some serious threats on the battlefield such as hardened armour pillboxes. It's for this reason that they don't need to be better, they need to be different, and they do that well.

I can guarantee that were they just like standard lasers (weight, size, heat, damage), but ignored F-L and hardened armour, people would be crying OP faster than you could say "I told you so"

It's easy to reload ammo.  It's not so easy to change out weaponry, especially when they don't neatly correspond to anything else in weight & crits.

[Fragger]

Yeah, like I said, they are good for Omnimechs but Battlemechs can install something better most of the time (unless you are down on your last crit and have 1.5 tons left, I can see me installing a small Re-engineered laser then due to the lack of more sensible options).
The problem is simply that there are only three types of armor where this weapon makes sense. I wanna see a game where one player brought an all Re-engineered laser lance but his opponent comes with introtech only and thus outguns him  ;D

[DarkISI]

Well, he would still need to bring the same BV, so he wouldn't really outgun him.
Why do people keep arguing in ways of tonnage? Balanced games are not accomplished by bringing the same tonnage to the battlefield. They are accomplished by bringing the same BV.
1 Small RELaser vs 3 Small Lasers
12 BV vs. 27 BV

Of course there is a difference in performance....

[Fragger]

Balanced games are not accomplished by bringing the same tonnage to the battlefield. They are accomplished by bringing the same BV.

Oh come on now, we all know the shortcomings of BV. It's ok for a rough estimate and better than pure tonnage, but back in the day when I used to play the most, we didn't even have BV and still managed to get balanced games.

No, I really don't want to say anything bad about BV, so please stop pulling arguments about the unlimited utility of the Re-engineered lasers out of your nose when it's obvious that this is a weapon for special circumstances.

[DarkISI]

Oh come on now, we all know the shortcomings of BV. It's ok for a rough estimate and better than pure tonnage, but back in the day when I used to play the most, we didn't even have BV and still managed to get balanced games.

No, I really don't want to say anything bad about BV, so please stop pulling arguments about the unlimited utility of the Re-engineered lasers out of your nose when it's obvious that this is a weapon for special circumstances.

I never said it had unlimited utility. I simply made a point, how the comparison that has been made here multiple times, namely that you had to compare 1 Small RELaser to 3 Small Lasers, is flawed. This comparison is solely based on the weight of the weapons, which is totally ridiculous. BV is by far the better comparison. Still not perfect, but compared to tonnage? It's leaps and bounds ahead of those.

[Alexander Knight]

As shown very early the only ReLaser that gets a significant benefit against anything is the Large - and the IS large laser isn't exactly the most effective weapon in the game (IMHO it's not as bad as some paint it, but then I think the IS MPL is pretty OK too).

And as J have shown, that is a flawed metric that only works when you're up against a single slab of armor.  It's the difference between theory and practice.  And in practice, my ReML will blow through the rear torso armor of that Rokurokubi in one hit.  Your medium lasers?  Won't.

[Arkansas Warrior]

I never said it had unlimited utility. I simply made a point, how the comparison that has been made here multiple times, namely that you had to compare 1 Small RELaser to 3 Small Lasers, is flawed. This comparison is solely based on the weight of the weapons, which is totally ridiculous. BV is by far the better comparison. Still not perfect, but compared to tonnage? It's leaps and bounds ahead of those.

It's likely because folks tend to compare it to their other options.  As in "If I pull this 1.5 ton weapon, what can I replace it with?"  It's not illogical you' therfore see comparisons like "3 SLs", "a GECM suite", "1 ML and a half ton or armor" "AMS" and anything else that weighs 1.5 tons.  Some might not be viable in a specific case due to crits, but if your building a custom design, you're not going to be thinking in terms of "either 1 ReSL or 1 SL and a ton of empty space".

[Yeti]

And as J have shown, that is a flawed metric that only works when you're up against a single slab of armor.  It's the difference between theory and practice.  And in practice, my ReML will blow through the rear torso armor of that Rokurokubi in one hit.  Your medium lasers?  Won't.

On the other hand my medium lasers can force the target to do a PSR for taking 20 damage, something the RE lasers never can do.

[Alexander Knight]

On the other hand my medium lasers can force the target to do a PSR for taking 20 damage, something the RE lasers never can do.

And two Re-ML will generate less heat than 5 ML.  Your point?

[MarauderD]

I'm planning on using them ad nauseum against my buddy that plays as DCMS. A couple normal mechs and one of the new Templar III's with all the Re-Lasers against his Hitotsumes and Rokurokubi-Ks.

[Previn]

And as J have shown, that is a flawed metric that only works when you're up against a single slab of armor.  It's the difference between theory and practice.  And in practice, my ReML will blow through the rear torso armor of that Rokurokubi in one hit.  Your medium lasers?  Won't.

You are working on an edge case (right armor type) of an edge case (specific location hit) of an edge case (specific amount of armor in that location) and saying that makes the weapon useable. Your logic and metric is severely flawed.

And two Re-ML will generate less heat than 5 ML.  Your point?

By 1 point. In return, they can't crit seek as well, can't force TACs as well, can't force a PSR, do less damage except against reflective armor, and less effective against vehicles and BA because the generate fewer distinct hits.

RE Mediums are a .5 tons over weight for what they do, and generate 1-2 points too much heat. If they were 2 tons and 5 or 6 heat you could take them and not be so much worse than other lasers that the benefit they provide in the right circumstances would balance out.

[MarauderD]

By 1 point. In return, they can't crit seek as well, can't force TACs as well, can't force a PSR, do less damage except against reflective armor, and less effective against vehicles and BA because the generate fewer.....

And, most importantly for anyone fighting DC troops, hardened armor. It does 100% damage to Ferro-Lamellor, the new armor champ of the universe.

To me, Re-Lasers aren't reinventing the wheel or replacing ER lasers at all. But dang if they won't ruin some Dracs day. And that is all I'm looking to do with them!

[Tai Dai Cultist]

It's likely because folks tend to compare it to their other options.  As in "If I pull this 1.5 ton weapon, what can I replace it with?"  It's not illogical you' therfore see comparisons like "3 SLs", "a GECM suite", "1 ML and a half ton or armor" "AMS" and anything else that weighs 1.5 tons.  Some might not be viable in a specific case due to crits, but if your building a custom design, you're not going to be thinking in terms of "either 1 ReSL or 1 SL and a ton of empty space".

That's a fine way of thinking for ATOW games or such, but weight hasn't been a force balancing system since before lostech was given rules.

If you can squeeze more firepower out by replacing X tons of Y with Z, what's the point if your BV goes over your limit with Z?

'Gaming the BV' might in fact be an argument FOR re-engineered lasers by allowing you to bring a 'heavier' force for a deflated BV value.

[Arkansas Warrior]

I almost never use BV.  Most of what I do is fiddle around with designs, so tonnage, crits, and heat are far more important to me than an outdated and inaccurate balancing metric that's barely being supported anymore.

[Alexander Knight]

You are working on an edge case (right armor type) of an edge case (specific location hit) of an edge case (specific amount of armor in that location) and saying that makes the weapon useable. Your logic and metric is severely flawed.

Actually, that was more of a "specific example" to point out that your "wall of armor measuring stick" was deeply flawed.  You will never encounter a situation where you just blaze away and count damage.  All targets have a set amount of armor.

Put another way...why is the Blazer Cannon deemed marginally useful in 3025?  Certainly not for the weight, range, or heat.  It's because it does enough damage to remove someone's head in a single shot.

By 1 point. In return, they can't crit seek as well, can't force TACs as well, can't force a PSR, do less damage except against reflective armor, and less effective against vehicles and BA because the generate fewer distinct hits.

They also take up less space in a 'mech or tank.  I can fit 2 RE ML into my legs.  You can't fit 5 ML into yours.  Your higher damage output depends greatly on scoring more hits, something that you should not take for granted.  If I hit with 2 REML and you hit with 4 ML, then I have done more damage to hardened armor targets than you did.

RE Mediums are a .5 tons over weight for what they do, and generate 1-2 points too much heat. If they were 2 tons and 5 or 6 heat you could take them and not be so much worse than other lasers that the benefit they provide in the right circumstances would balance out.

So you want them to make the medium pulse laser totally and completely obsolete.  Interesting.

[Arkansas Warrior]

The MPL is already completely obsolete.  The proliferation of XPLs and clantech saw to that.  (ofc, previous to that it was only not obsolete at 1-2 hexes, everywhere else MLs or ERMLs were already better)

[Alexander Knight]

The MPL is already completely obsolete.  The proliferation of XPLs and clantech saw to that.  (ofc, previous to that it was only not obsolete at 1-2 hexes, everywhere else MLs or ERMLs were already better)

Yes, that's why it was never used on any design, right?

[Maskerade]

The MPL is already completely obsolete.  The proliferation of XPLs and clantech saw to that.

Clan tech making larger, heavier, higher heat, lower damage, lower range weapons that cost exactly the same amount obsolete? Who would have thought? [metalhealth]

But seriously, it's a knife fighter's weapon. It's got lower heat and greater damage than the ERML, as well as better accuracy than the ERML at <6 hexes. It's weighs more, but a light, fast pulse boat is every bit as dangerous as an ERML boat, if not more so due to the ability to absolutely dominate at close range whilst keeping its own movement modifier high enough to make it difficult to hit.

MPLs are also good for dealing with infantry (better than 2 medium or ER mediums, at any rate).