Author Topic: What's with Heat Resistant Armour?  (Read 8051 times)

Akalabeth

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What's with Heat Resistant Armour?
« on: 22 February 2014, 21:42:28 »
So heat resistant armour is derived from Clan fire-resistant armour. It's developed by the Capellan Confederation, a faction which probably has the least contact with the clans. It's also developed by the same faction which created the inner sphere Plasma Rifle.

Frankly doesn't make much sense to me. Cappies create a heat-based weapon, then create armour to combat their own weaponry, and that armour is created from groups they probably have minimal contact with. Why would a group make armour that combats their own weaponry? It's like the cappies creating Stealth armour and then creating some sort of active probe to combat the stealth effect.

To me it would make more sense that a faction opposed to the Cappellans created heat resistance armour, or at least a faction with continually contact with the clans (and their Plasma Cannons)

CloaknDagger

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Re: What's with Heat Resistant Armour?
« Reply #1 on: 22 February 2014, 21:47:38 »
A bigger question is why the armor is not only heavier and more crits, but also not even heat proof.

Yeah, I'm going to equip heavier, crit filling armor when it doesn't even do it's minor job all the way.

Scotty

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Re: What's with Heat Resistant Armour?
« Reply #2 on: 22 February 2014, 22:00:22 »
Why would a group make armour that combats their own weaponry?

You mean to tell me you've never seen a Plasma Rifle on a non-Capellan 'mech?  Or infernos used by non-Capellan tanks?
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Akalabeth

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Re: What's with Heat Resistant Armour?
« Reply #3 on: 22 February 2014, 22:01:59 »
You mean to tell me you've never seen a Plasma Rifle on a non-Capellan 'mech?  Or infernos used by non-Capellan tanks?

Sure but it's about what makes sense. And it makes the least sense for a faction to develop a counter to their own technology. Normally you develop counters to enemy technology.

A bigger question is why the armor is not only heavier and more crits, but also not even heat proof.

Yeah, I'm going to equip heavier, crit filling armor when it doesn't even do it's minor job all the way.

Yeah 10 pts per ton is pretty rubbish.

Gus

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Re: What's with Heat Resistant Armour?
« Reply #4 on: 22 February 2014, 22:43:41 »
A bigger question is why the armor is not only heavier and more crits, but also not even heat proof.

Yeah, I'm going to equip heavier, crit filling armor when it doesn't even do it's minor job all the way.

+1. Heat-dissipating armour doesn't help you stay at the optimal 9 heat points to get the greatest gains from TSM. And the cost in weight is very steep.

Diablo48

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Re: What's with Heat Resistant Armour?
« Reply #5 on: 23 February 2014, 00:42:45 »
I am feeling too lazy to check right now, but would it be worth using on vehicles to protect against things like Infernos?


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Fallen_Raven

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Re: What's with Heat Resistant Armour?
« Reply #6 on: 23 February 2014, 01:30:19 »
And it makes the least sense for a faction to develop a counter to their own technology.

People tend to fear their own tactics being used against them. That's part of why the US has spent billions of dollars developing ballistic missile defenses, and the Germans worked out anti-sub tactics before they were deployed. Being the primary user of a weapon makes you extremely aware of the danger it presents, and motivates you to figure out how to stop it before your enemies turn the tables on you.
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Akalabeth

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Re: What's with Heat Resistant Armour?
« Reply #7 on: 23 February 2014, 01:58:31 »
People tend to fear their own tactics being used against them. That's part of why the US has spent billions of dollars developing ballistic missile defenses, and the Germans worked out anti-sub tactics before they were deployed. Being the primary user of a weapon makes you extremely aware of the danger it presents, and motivates you to figure out how to stop it before your enemies turn the tables on you.

We're not tactics we're talking about technology. The germans didn't develop ASDIC for example. And the ballistic missile isn't a purely US weapon, over 30 countries field them apparently.

It would make sense if someone else developed Plasma Rifles and the Capellans created Heat Resistant armour to pair with their TSM mechs, however creating a weapon then creating the means to counter act the weapon makes me scratch my head.

CloaknDagger

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Re: What's with Heat Resistant Armour?
« Reply #8 on: 23 February 2014, 02:56:06 »
Sure but it's about what makes sense. And it makes the least sense for a faction to develop a counter to their own technology. Normally you develop counters to enemy technology.


We're not tactics we're talking about technology. The germans didn't develop ASDIC for example. And the ballistic missile isn't a purely US weapon, over 30 countries field them apparently.


Huh, you know what, the Nazis actually are a good example here.

They used magnetic resistant paste on their tanks, to prevent magnetic mines from sticking to them.

The problem being, nobody else other than the Nazis used magnetic mines.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zimmerit

Gus

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Re: What's with Heat Resistant Armour?
« Reply #9 on: 23 February 2014, 03:13:48 »
I am feeling too lazy to check right now, but would it be worth using on vehicles to protect against things like Infernos?

Heat-Dissipating is only available for Battlemechs and Industrial Mechs.  :'(

CloaknDagger

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Re: What's with Heat Resistant Armour?
« Reply #10 on: 23 February 2014, 03:31:08 »
Heat-Dissipating is only available for Battlemechs and Industrial Mechs.  :'(

And thus, the Heat armor fails at every possible role.

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Re: What's with Heat Resistant Armour?
« Reply #11 on: 23 February 2014, 05:24:14 »
Sure but it's about what makes sense. And it makes the least sense for a faction to develop a counter to their own technology. Normally you develop counters to enemy technology.

And you completely missed my point about how the Capellans don't own heat-based weapons.  The enemy uses it too.  They are countering enemy weapons.

This is like complaining about putting CHOBHAM armor on modern MBTs.  Why would any modern first world country need advanced armors on their MBTs when obviously the only thing they're going to fight are Cold War Era wrecks?  Because that's not the only thing they'll see eventually.

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Re: What's with Heat Resistant Armour?
« Reply #12 on: 23 February 2014, 07:10:59 »
And thus, the Heat armor fails at every possible role.

Not everything needs to be successful. I suspect they were looking to create something that could be merged with their stealth armor to prevent unpleasantness when it came to infernos being used against their flashbulb mechs.

This would be great armor for on something like a Firestarter. The Catapult that they have appears to have it for similar reasons. How many flaming weapons does that have? MMLS (infernos) and Plasma Rifles galore. Definitely the best incendiary mech around for the pilot's ability to stay nice and cool in their own creation.

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Re: What's with Heat Resistant Armour?
« Reply #13 on: 23 February 2014, 12:18:55 »
the "capellans don't have a monopoly on heat weapons" is apt..

not only has the Plasma Rifle spread thru out the IS (the cappie just use it more often than other nations), but Flamers and Inferno's are both widespread and common in both the IS and clans. Inferno's especially, since they are ideal vehicle and BA killers.. something you can expect to face when fighting Cappie's due to their augmented Lances.

the clans have Inferno's and Flamers too, also the Plasma Cannon.. a weapon that is superior to the Plasma Rifle in imparting heat with twice the heat transfer, and is half the mass too so effectively is 4x better than the Capellan weapon. and for the clans they are common, and used quite often. usually in clusters of 2-3 at a time.

and lets look at the Capellan's main enemies? the Davions, long time extensive users of Flamers and Inferno's, now buying and producing clantech like mad. and the ROTS, with widespread use of flamers and inferno's, also clantech out the wazoo and entire clan enclaves.

not to mention, there is the issue of capellan strategies.. quite often we hear of them setting entire woods afire, or torching a town.. Capellans are happy little pyromaniacs now, and because they tend to do this before fighting in said flames to route an enemy, one can understand why thery'd come up with a way to keep their usually heat sensitive mechs cool as they wade through the flames cackling...

Firesprocket

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Re: What's with Heat Resistant Armour?
« Reply #14 on: 23 February 2014, 13:15:11 »
What reasons aside from active vs passive heat mitigation would one want to take this armor and all its inefficiency over RHSS? 

CloaknDagger

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Re: What's with Heat Resistant Armour?
« Reply #15 on: 23 February 2014, 13:31:40 »
What reasons aside from active vs passive heat mitigation would one want to take this armor and all its inefficiency over RHSS?

None.

Though you bring a good point, how many DHS can you cram into a mech rather than use HRA?

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Re: What's with Heat Resistant Armour?
« Reply #16 on: 23 February 2014, 13:37:44 »
What reasons aside from active vs passive heat mitigation would one want to take this armor and all its inefficiency over RHSS?
Production issues come to mind.  A faction might not be able to produce RHS, but be fully capable of making Heat-dissipating armor (which seems to be the case for the Capellans in canon). 

Though you bring a good point, how many DHS can you cram into a mech rather than use HRA?
That would depend on the critical slots available and the amount of heat-dissipating armor used.  Both vary wildly with different designs, so this isn't really answerable. 

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Re: What's with Heat Resistant Armour?
« Reply #17 on: 23 February 2014, 13:50:59 »
What reasons aside from active vs passive heat mitigation would one want to take this armor and all its inefficiency over RHSS?

The armor works every turn.  Try to run your RHSS like that and you'll blow an activation roll and then be worse off than you'd be without it.

As for why would the Capellans need it?  Please to note the Hanse MBT's main armament.  TWIN plasma rifles.

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Re: What's with Heat Resistant Armour?
« Reply #18 on: 23 February 2014, 14:04:00 »
there is also the fact RHS takes up tonnage that could be devoted to weapons or ammo.. while the armor is just a version of something your going to mount anyway.

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Re: What's with Heat Resistant Armour?
« Reply #19 on: 23 February 2014, 14:10:35 »
there is also the fact RHS takes up tonnage that could be devoted to weapons or ammo.. while the armor is just a version of something your going to mount anyway.
Heat-dissipating armor takes up a notably increased amount of tonnage to provide the same protection as standard armor (60% more), so you are sacrificing tonnage and critical slots that could be put towards weapons or ammo with either a RHS or Heat-dissipating armor. 

CloaknDagger

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Re: What's with Heat Resistant Armour?
« Reply #20 on: 23 February 2014, 15:17:54 »
The armor works every turn

So do double heat sinks. A much more useful piece of equipment. They can even get rid of ALL heat, unlike heat resistant armor.

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Re: What's with Heat Resistant Armour?
« Reply #21 on: 23 February 2014, 15:46:21 »
So do double heat sinks. A much more useful piece of equipment. They can even get rid of ALL heat, unlike heat resistant armor.

The question was not "Heat resistant armor or DHS?"  The question was "Heat resistant armor or Radical Heat Sink System?"

Firesprocket

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Re: What's with Heat Resistant Armour?
« Reply #22 on: 23 February 2014, 16:10:26 »
The armor works every turn.  Try to run your RHSS like that and you'll blow an activation roll and then be worse off than you'd be without it.
I wouldn't want to and shouldn't have to.  If I am getting hit by that many heat producing weapons I'm probably close to being dead at that point.  Going directly to my point though is this, cost.  The RHSS costs are Weight and Crits (4 tons and 3 crits).   Effect a 3% baseline chance of failure that scales and at least 10 heat flushed.

Now compare that to the HRA. The HRA means that you have to invest 10 crit spaces and get 38% less an ability to soak damage from standard armor (10 vs 16).  It runs a safer degree of protection from heat then the RHSS because there are no safety rolls involved.  You also have a flat known return compared to the RHSS which is going to flush a number relative to it's overall active heat sinks.  For me, that lack of armor is huge.  Unless you are running against units exclusively Plasma Cannons and Inferno equipped units you are losing a lot of soaking ability.  Once you hit a 30 ton chassis for the tonnage you could put into a RHSS for almost the same cost as what you are paying to put HRA armor protection that you otherwise would have had with standard armor.  4 tons, 3 crits for RHSS vs right around 4 tons (just shy) and 10 crits.

there is also the fact RHS takes up tonnage that could be devoted to weapons or ammo.. while the armor is just a version of something your going to mount anyway.

Which becomes moot the larger your mech is and I state here.  You have more space for installing a RHSS and after 30 tons you will have more tonnage available for anything else because you aren't paying the extra cost in tonnage to offer the same protection of standard armor.  There is virtually no reason to mount HRA.  Not because the effect is bad, it's fairly good.  It's net usefulness, however, is outweighed by all the negatives in cost the amour has.  If it offered say 12 or 13 points of armor per ton or didn't eat up nearly as much critical space then it might be worth it.  As the amour is stated right now it's well over cost and I don't see the value when there is a viable alternative.

martian

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Re: What's with Heat Resistant Armour?
« Reply #23 on: 23 February 2014, 16:23:58 »
I would be willing to use the HDA if it offered circa 13 armor points. 10 points is not enough for me.
« Last Edit: 23 February 2014, 16:43:38 by martian »

CloaknDagger

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Re: What's with Heat Resistant Armour?
« Reply #24 on: 23 February 2014, 16:28:29 »
HRA would only be viable if it completely removed outside heat sources, AND ALSO was bumped to 13 points of armor per ton.

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Re: What's with Heat Resistant Armour?
« Reply #25 on: 23 February 2014, 17:59:11 »
Hm.  Let's go with a fire, shall we?

A 'mech requires 1.5 tons of FRA to gain full effect.  We can't have 1.5 tons of DHS so...we'll say 2 tons of FRA and 10 DHS vs no armor and 12 DHS, since fire deals no damage.

so 20 vs 24 dissipation.  Assuming both 'mechs end their turn in a fire (and walk), the 'mech with 12 DHS can move through 9 hexes of an inferno before anything else will build heat.

The 'mech with FRA and 10 DHS on the other hand can move through 17 hexes of that inferno.

But it's not just fires!  Extreme temperature, infernos, plasma cannons, Flamers, Mag-Pulse (I think).  FRA works on all of them.  I'm not saying it's the best but the casual dismissal is unwarrented.

CloaknDagger

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Re: What's with Heat Resistant Armour?
« Reply #26 on: 23 February 2014, 19:19:51 »
Hm.  Let's go with a fire, shall we?

A 'mech requires 1.5 tons of FRA to gain full effect.  We can't have 1.5 tons of DHS so...we'll say 2 tons of FRA and 10 DHS vs no armor and 12 DHS, since fire deals no damage.

so 20 vs 24 dissipation.  Assuming both 'mechs end their turn in a fire (and walk), the 'mech with 12 DHS can move through 9 hexes of an inferno before anything else will build heat.

The 'mech with FRA and 10 DHS on the other hand can move through 17 hexes of that inferno.

But it's not just fires!  Extreme temperature, infernos, plasma cannons, Flamers, Mag-Pulse (I think).  FRA works on all of them.  I'm not saying it's the best but the casual dismissal is unwarrented.

lol

2 tons of armor?

Let's say it's a medium-heavy mech and go with 20 tons of armor and 10 DHS, compared to 12 tons of LFF armor on another mech and 18 DHS.

The mech with FRA and 10 DHS can move through 17 hexes of that inferno.

The mech with LFF and 18 DHS can move through infinity hexes and have 1 extra dissipation to spare.

Kitsune413

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Re: What's with Heat Resistant Armour?
« Reply #27 on: 23 February 2014, 19:28:52 »
The Capellans have a long history of dealing with heat.

Stealth Armor - Triple Strength Myomers - Plasma Rifles

They have probably done lots of their own research.

On the other hand Clan Sea Fox makes Plasma Cannons and they'd know something about Clan Heat armor. Maybe it was a trade.
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Re: What's with Heat Resistant Armour?
« Reply #28 on: 23 February 2014, 19:34:32 »
I think the reason the Capellans developed heat-resistant armor has to do with them being one of the earliest adopters and most prolific users of TSM. Running TSM requires your 'Mech be at least be carrying 9 heat points, and anyone who runs TSM regularly will tell you that puts you one good inferno salvo away from some seriously nasty shut-down and ammo cook-off rolls. On a 'Mech that intends to keep TSM active for an extended period of time, minimizing the amount of heat damage you can suffer is essential. Yes, 10 points per ton is pretty terrible, but in specfic situations, you need to prevent being shut down more than you need that additional armor.  A good example of a 'Mech using heat resistant armor effectively is the Ti Ts'ang in NTNU. Sure, it loses the jump jets, but it's still well armored and signifcantly less vulnerable to being shut down by a pair of SRM launchers.
« Last Edit: 23 February 2014, 19:37:18 by MadCapellan »

Kitsune413

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Re: What's with Heat Resistant Armour?
« Reply #29 on: 23 February 2014, 19:36:05 »
Yeah. Definitely a Niche armor. But its interesting that Battletech is going in that direction
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Alexander Knight

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Re: What's with Heat Resistant Armour?
« Reply #30 on: 23 February 2014, 19:42:18 »
lol

2 tons of armor?

Let's say it's a medium-heavy mech and go with 20 tons of armor and 10 DHS, compared to 12 tons of LFF armor on another mech and 18 DHS.

The mech with FRA and 10 DHS can move through 17 hexes of that inferno.

The mech with LFF and 18 DHS can move through infinity hexes and have 1 extra dissipation to spare.

Uh, no.  First off your LFF/18 DHS 'Mech requires 25 more crit slots to be occupied.  That's....pretty significant.  Secondly, I used an invalid example since heat is capped at 15 from outside sources.  To generate that 15, the non FRA 'Mech would need to walk through 5 hexes, ending his turn in fire.  At which point we have 36 (dissipation) - 15 (fire) - 1 (walking) = 20 remaining.  The FRA 'Mech has 20 (dissipation) - 8 (fire) -1 (walking) = 11 remaining.

An advantage for the LFF 'Mech yes.  But one that requires him to devote over half his crit spaces to achieve.  The FRA 'Mech on the other hand can easily slide in Endo-Steel and still have 11 more crits available than his adversary, and more tonnage available as well.

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Re: What's with Heat Resistant Armour?
« Reply #31 on: 23 February 2014, 21:33:26 »
But it's not just fires!  Extreme temperature, infernos, plasma cannons, Flamers, Mag-Pulse (I think).  FRA works on all of them.  I'm not saying it's the best but the casual dismissal is unwarrented.

I'm hardly dismissing it, casually or otherwise.  Your examples though aren't likely to play out in my games that often.  I'm likely to see all those weapon in one fight or another on a regular basis.  The fact remains though in order to carry similar damage protection to any other unit with standard armor I have to dedicate a 40% more to my armor tonnage then I normally would.  That cost goes up considerably as you field a larger mech.  If I managed to run 17 hexes through fire and then get pelted by either plasma cannons or infernos I've probably done something incredibly bad and ran into the biggest hornet's nest of all time and deserve to die.  The armor just has to many down sides for me to consider using it unless I know before the game I'm walking through a firestorm.


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Re: What's with Heat Resistant Armour?
« Reply #32 on: 23 February 2014, 21:36:19 »
The armor just has to many down sides for me to consider using it unless I know before the game I'm walking through a firestorm.

That's why the ideal units to use it are natural fire magnets - units using TSM, unit's packing infernos themselves, and units that are general heat pigs.  It's certainly a niche armor, but it's not completely useless.

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Re: What's with Heat Resistant Armour?
« Reply #33 on: 23 February 2014, 21:40:35 »
I think the reason the Capellans developed heat-resistant armor has to do with them being one of the earliest adopters and most prolific users of TSM. Running TSM requires your 'Mech be at least be carrying 9 heat points, and anyone who runs TSM regularly will tell you that puts you one good inferno salvo away from some seriously nasty shut-down and ammo cook-off rolls. On a 'Mech that intends to keep TSM active for an extended period of time, minimizing the amount of heat damage you can suffer is essential. Yes, 10 points per ton is pretty terrible, but in specfic situations, you need to prevent being shut down more than you need that additional armor.  A good example of a 'Mech using heat resistant armor effectively is the Ti Ts'ang in NTNU. Sure, it loses the jump jets, but it's still well armored and signifcantly less vulnerable to being shut down by a pair of SRM launchers.
The first ammo explosion save isn't until level 19, 10 points away. Unless you're carrying inferno's yourself, when it's at 10, one point away. But there is a shut down roll pretty close.

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Re: What's with Heat Resistant Armour?
« Reply #34 on: 23 February 2014, 22:27:26 »
That's why the ideal units to use it are natural fire magnets - units using TSM, unit's packing infernos themselves, and units that are general heat pigs.  It's certainly a niche armor, but it's not completely useless.

It is, because DHS exist.

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Re: What's with Heat Resistant Armour?
« Reply #35 on: 23 February 2014, 22:34:59 »
It is, because DHS exist.


Yes...but IS DHS are incredibly crit inefficient...

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Re: What's with Heat Resistant Armour?
« Reply #36 on: 23 February 2014, 22:37:24 »
It is, because DHS exist.

Again, I point out your 12 tons of LFF + 18 DHS gives up TWENTY-FIVE CRITS to 20 tons of FRA + 10 DHS.  Crit-wise, you can only mount 2 DHS in exchange for the armor, and even then the armor crits can be leg-mounted, while DHS cannot be.

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Re: What's with Heat Resistant Armour?
« Reply #37 on: 23 February 2014, 22:37:49 »
Okay...here's a question for you guys...why does every piece of equipment have to be optimized?
Besides not every technology is going to be excellent, sometimes it will be merely adequate.
Frankly I feel more accomplishment if I can win a game with "inferior" equipment, but that's just me.

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Re: What's with Heat Resistant Armour?
« Reply #38 on: 24 February 2014, 00:19:06 »
Okay...here's a question for you guys...why does every piece of equipment have to be optimized?
Besides not every technology is going to be excellent, sometimes it will be merely adequate.
Frankly I feel more accomplishment if I can win a game with "inferior" equipment, but that's just me.

It has to be useful, otherwise it ends up in a pile with IS Pulse lasers, Bombast Lasers, and Protomech autocannons.
« Last Edit: 24 February 2014, 00:56:09 by CloaknDagger »

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Re: What's with Heat Resistant Armour?
« Reply #39 on: 24 February 2014, 00:52:52 »
It has to be useful, otherwise it ends up in a pile with IS Pulse lasers, Blazers, and Protomech autocannons.

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Re: What's with Heat Resistant Armour?
« Reply #40 on: 24 February 2014, 02:23:59 »
not only has the Plasma Rifle spread thru out the IS (the cappie just use it more often than other nations), but Flamers and Inferno's are both widespread and common in both the IS and clans. Inferno's especially, since they are ideal vehicle and BA killers.. something you can expect to face when fighting Cappie's due to their augmented Lances.

I'm not sure about recent fiction, but older fiction suggested that Infernos were not in wide use due to their volatility.

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Re: What's with Heat Resistant Armour?
« Reply #41 on: 24 February 2014, 04:46:28 »
3025 infantry loved infernos. Used to instant kill vehicles and shut down mechs so they could swarm it.

When you are a mechwarrior it was always fluffed as only being used when you had a serious hate for the other team but when you are a pbi in the battlemechs world bring the heat.

Anyways, despite its armor per ton if you are a tsm melee mech this niche armor makes a ton of sense.
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SCC

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Re: What's with Heat Resistant Armour?
« Reply #42 on: 24 February 2014, 04:57:10 »
It has to be useful, otherwise it ends up in a pile with IS Pulse lasers, Bombast Lasers, and Protomech autocannons.
Nah, PAC's are useful

Diablo48

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Re: What's with Heat Resistant Armour?
« Reply #43 on: 24 February 2014, 05:20:43 »
It is, because DHS exist.

While I am with you in basically every other situation because you can just pile on a few more DHS to get the same effective protection through surplus dissipation, TSM 'Mechs have to end the turn at 9 heat so they would actually see a real benefit in that it takes more effort to get them into the really problematic heat ranges.


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Alexander Knight

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Re: What's with Heat Resistant Armour?
« Reply #44 on: 24 February 2014, 05:41:05 »
Okay....you guys *do* realize there are two construction limits on what a 'Mech can mount, right?  Tonnage and Critical Space.

You're focusing on the tonnage requirement.  Keep in mind that if you mount more than 2 DHS outside the engine instead of carrying FRA, you are *losing* critical spaces.

Paul

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Re: What's with Heat Resistant Armour?
« Reply #45 on: 24 February 2014, 08:04:33 »
Besides not every technology is going to be excellent, sometimes it will be merely adequate.

Precisely. And this armor consciously falls on the 'mediocre' pile. Making it actually competitive was discussed during creation, but rejected.


It has to be useful, otherwise it ends up in a pile with IS Pulse lasers, Bombast Lasers, and Protomech autocannons.

And that's where it belongs. Sub-optimal gear that's only useful some of the time, if the situation is adjusted such that it shines. All 4 techs have a point, but most of the time, it won't be worth it.

Glad I could clear that up. =)

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Re: What's with Heat Resistant Armour?
« Reply #46 on: 24 February 2014, 09:51:22 »
Okay....you guys *do* realize there are two construction limits on what a 'Mech can mount, right?  Tonnage and Critical Space.

You're focusing on the tonnage requirement.  Keep in mind that if you mount more than 2 DHS outside the engine instead of carrying FRA, you are *losing* critical spaces.
DHS are also a lot more useful.  They'll dissipate any of the heat you generate, not just that from external sources.  Myself, I'd probably be comparing the weight/crit savings to RHS though.  Most designs probably save weight and crits by going to standard armor and adding an RHS that you can trigger as often as every other turn (more if you don't mind the risk) if the other guy turns out to have brought plasma weapons, flamers, infernos, etc.  If he didn't, you can leave it alone or use it to allow for more aggressive fire patterns.
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Re: What's with Heat Resistant Armour?
« Reply #47 on: 24 February 2014, 11:03:52 »
Okay....you guys *do* realize there are two construction limits on what a 'Mech can mount, right?  Tonnage and Critical Space.

You're focusing on the tonnage requirement.  Keep in mind that if you mount more than 2 DHS outside the engine instead of carrying FRA, you are *losing* critical spaces.

Right, the problem is... even using a 250 rated engine allows you to hide 10 heatsinks into the engine. For big beefy mechs like the Ti' Ts'ang (oh god I mangled that) can hide 14 DHS in the engine.

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Re: What's with Heat Resistant Armour?
« Reply #48 on: 24 February 2014, 11:09:09 »
Precisely. And this armor consciously falls on the 'mediocre' pile. Making it actually competitive was discussed during creation, but rejected.


To add to Paul's comments, take the Catapult with HRA. It was designed with the usage from the old Firebee in mind. Wade right in and fire off infernoes until everything burns to the ground. Coupled with the plasma rifles, it can put a serious heat hurt on things and collateral heat damage won't bite it in the rear. Not great for all situations but can safely out burn a Firestarter and still actually have damage producing weapons.
(The Davion can kill PBIs in droves with the Scarecrow. Liao can torch the world around them with the Catapult. Kurita tried with the Phoenix Hawk L but failed. At least that had TSEMP for double duty.)

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Re: What's with Heat Resistant Armour?
« Reply #49 on: 24 February 2014, 12:01:41 »
Right, the problem is... even using a 250 rated engine allows you to hide 10 heatsinks into the engine. For big beefy mechs like the Ti' Ts'ang (oh god I mangled that) can hide 14 DHS in the engine.

Yes, and the example given earlier had a 'mech with 18 DHS and LFF vs a 'mech with 10 DHS and FRA.  That's 19 crits the DHS/LFF 'mech gives up to the FRA 'mech when using a 250-rated engine.  For something like the Ti'Ts'ang it's still 13 crits.


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Re: What's with Heat Resistant Armour?
« Reply #50 on: 24 February 2014, 18:30:06 »
Most military hardware does not stay exclusive to one faction in the long run . If the technology is a must have such as double heat sinks it happens faster . If it is a niche technology like iNARC  it may never happen . The Plasma Rifle falls somewhere in the middle .  If you want bad enough you can reverse engineer it with time . Perceived Critical Technology such as double heat sinks endo steel and endo composite may take a very few years to get into the pipeline and go across known space . Some things are very simple like machine gun arrays that take little time and resources to do  .  C3 masters and slaves did not stay the the DC but went everywhere because the perceived need to fight the clans with more parity . Heat Resistant armor is 10 pts per ton and Heavy Ferro fibrous is about 20pts per ton so for vehicles it is somewhat a wash and standard armor is 16pts per ton . If you have design that has max armor with standard you only have 62.5% of max armor of this new stuff and you are therefore sacrificing firepower and or endurance to get that back . I do not see anyone adding this armor to an established logistical train without an over riding strategic need to . The advantage of maximum armor with maximum firepower cannot happen with this armor since you have to trade too much tonnage to get that maximum armor ; then you are not doing enough damage to effect the out come of a battle anyway .
 

 

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