What's with Heat Resistant Armour?

[Alexander Knight]

lol

2 tons of armor?

Let's say it's a medium-heavy mech and go with 20 tons of armor and 10 DHS, compared to 12 tons of LFF armor on another mech and 18 DHS.

The mech with FRA and 10 DHS can move through 17 hexes of that inferno.

The mech with LFF and 18 DHS can move through infinity hexes and have 1 extra dissipation to spare.

Uh, no.  First off your LFF/18 DHS 'Mech requires 25 more crit slots to be occupied.  That's....pretty significant.  Secondly, I used an invalid example since heat is capped at 15 from outside sources.  To generate that 15, the non FRA 'Mech would need to walk through 5 hexes, ending his turn in fire.  At which point we have 36 (dissipation) - 15 (fire) - 1 (walking) = 20 remaining.  The FRA 'Mech has 20 (dissipation) - 8 (fire) -1 (walking) = 11 remaining.

An advantage for the LFF 'Mech yes.  But one that requires him to devote over half his crit spaces to achieve.  The FRA 'Mech on the other hand can easily slide in Endo-Steel and still have 11 more crits available than his adversary, and more tonnage available as well.

[Firesprocket]

But it's not just fires!  Extreme temperature, infernos, plasma cannons, Flamers, Mag-Pulse (I think).  FRA works on all of them.  I'm not saying it's the best but the casual dismissal is unwarrented.

I'm hardly dismissing it, casually or otherwise.  Your examples though aren't likely to play out in my games that often.  I'm likely to see all those weapon in one fight or another on a regular basis.  The fact remains though in order to carry similar damage protection to any other unit with standard armor I have to dedicate a 40% more to my armor tonnage then I normally would.  That cost goes up considerably as you field a larger mech.  If I managed to run 17 hexes through fire and then get pelted by either plasma cannons or infernos I've probably done something incredibly bad and ran into the biggest hornet's nest of all time and deserve to die.  The armor just has to many down sides for me to consider using it unless I know before the game I'm walking through a firestorm.

[MadCapellan]

The armor just has to many down sides for me to consider using it unless I know before the game I'm walking through a firestorm.

That's why the ideal units to use it are natural fire magnets - units using TSM, unit's packing infernos themselves, and units that are general heat pigs.  It's certainly a niche armor, but it's not completely useless.

[SCC]

I think the reason the Capellans developed heat-resistant armor has to do with them being one of the earliest adopters and most prolific users of TSM. Running TSM requires your 'Mech be at least be carrying 9 heat points, and anyone who runs TSM regularly will tell you that puts you one good inferno salvo away from some seriously nasty shut-down and ammo cook-off rolls. On a 'Mech that intends to keep TSM active for an extended period of time, minimizing the amount of heat damage you can suffer is essential. Yes, 10 points per ton is pretty terrible, but in specfic situations, you need to prevent being shut down more than you need that additional armor.  A good example of a 'Mech using heat resistant armor effectively is the Ti Ts'ang in NTNU. Sure, it loses the jump jets, but it's still well armored and signifcantly less vulnerable to being shut down by a pair of SRM launchers.

The first ammo explosion save isn't until level 19, 10 points away. Unless you're carrying inferno's yourself, when it's at 10, one point away. But there is a shut down roll pretty close.

[CloaknDagger]

That's why the ideal units to use it are natural fire magnets - units using TSM, unit's packing infernos themselves, and units that are general heat pigs.  It's certainly a niche armor, but it's not completely useless.

It is, because DHS exist.

[YingJanshi]

It is, because DHS exist.

Yes...but IS DHS are incredibly crit inefficient...

[Alexander Knight]

It is, because DHS exist.

Again, I point out your 12 tons of LFF + 18 DHS gives up TWENTY-FIVE CRITS to 20 tons of FRA + 10 DHS.  Crit-wise, you can only mount 2 DHS in exchange for the armor, and even then the armor crits can be leg-mounted, while DHS cannot be.

[YingJanshi]

Okay...here's a question for you guys...why does every piece of equipment have to be optimized?
Besides not every technology is going to be excellent, sometimes it will be merely adequate.
Frankly I feel more accomplishment if I can win a game with "inferior" equipment, but that's just me.

[CloaknDagger]

Okay...here's a question for you guys...why does every piece of equipment have to be optimized?
Besides not every technology is going to be excellent, sometimes it will be merely adequate.
Frankly I feel more accomplishment if I can win a game with "inferior" equipment, but that's just me.

It has to be useful, otherwise it ends up in a pile with IS Pulse lasers, Bombast Lasers, and Protomech autocannons.

[Alexander Knight]

It has to be useful, otherwise it ends up in a pile with IS Pulse lasers, Blazers, and Protomech autocannons.

Twenty Five Crits

[Akalabeth]

not only has the Plasma Rifle spread thru out the IS (the cappie just use it more often than other nations), but Flamers and Inferno's are both widespread and common in both the IS and clans. Inferno's especially, since they are ideal vehicle and BA killers.. something you can expect to face when fighting Cappie's due to their augmented Lances.

I'm not sure about recent fiction, but older fiction suggested that Infernos were not in wide use due to their volatility.

[Kitsune413]

3025 infantry loved infernos. Used to instant kill vehicles and shut down mechs so they could swarm it.

When you are a mechwarrior it was always fluffed as only being used when you had a serious hate for the other team but when you are a pbi in the battlemechs world bring the heat.

Anyways, despite its armor per ton if you are a tsm melee mech this niche armor makes a ton of sense.

[SCC]

It has to be useful, otherwise it ends up in a pile with IS Pulse lasers, Bombast Lasers, and Protomech autocannons.

Nah, PAC's are useful

[Diablo48]

It is, because DHS exist.

While I am with you in basically every other situation because you can just pile on a few more DHS to get the same effective protection through surplus dissipation, TSM 'Mechs have to end the turn at 9 heat so they would actually see a real benefit in that it takes more effort to get them into the really problematic heat ranges.

[Alexander Knight]

Okay....you guys *do* realize there are two construction limits on what a 'Mech can mount, right?  Tonnage and Critical Space.

You're focusing on the tonnage requirement.  Keep in mind that if you mount more than 2 DHS outside the engine instead of carrying FRA, you are *losing* critical spaces.

[Paul]

Besides not every technology is going to be excellent, sometimes it will be merely adequate.

Precisely. And this armor consciously falls on the 'mediocre' pile. Making it actually competitive was discussed during creation, but rejected.

It has to be useful, otherwise it ends up in a pile with IS Pulse lasers, Bombast Lasers, and Protomech autocannons.

And that's where it belongs. Sub-optimal gear that's only useful some of the time, if the situation is adjusted such that it shines. All 4 techs have a point, but most of the time, it won't be worth it.

Glad I could clear that up. =)

Paul

[Arkansas Warrior]

Okay....you guys *do* realize there are two construction limits on what a 'Mech can mount, right?  Tonnage and Critical Space.

You're focusing on the tonnage requirement.  Keep in mind that if you mount more than 2 DHS outside the engine instead of carrying FRA, you are *losing* critical spaces.

DHS are also a lot more useful.  They'll dissipate any of the heat you generate, not just that from external sources.  Myself, I'd probably be comparing the weight/crit savings to RHS though.  Most designs probably save weight and crits by going to standard armor and adding an RHS that you can trigger as often as every other turn (more if you don't mind the risk) if the other guy turns out to have brought plasma weapons, flamers, infernos, etc.  If he didn't, you can leave it alone or use it to allow for more aggressive fire patterns.

[Auren]

Okay....you guys *do* realize there are two construction limits on what a 'Mech can mount, right?  Tonnage and Critical Space.

You're focusing on the tonnage requirement.  Keep in mind that if you mount more than 2 DHS outside the engine instead of carrying FRA, you are *losing* critical spaces.

Right, the problem is... even using a 250 rated engine allows you to hide 10 heatsinks into the engine. For big beefy mechs like the Ti' Ts'ang (oh god I mangled that) can hide 14 DHS in the engine.

[cavingjan]

Precisely. And this armor consciously falls on the 'mediocre' pile. Making it actually competitive was discussed during creation, but rejected.

To add to Paul's comments, take the Catapult with HRA. It was designed with the usage from the old Firebee in mind. Wade right in and fire off infernoes until everything burns to the ground. Coupled with the plasma rifles, it can put a serious heat hurt on things and collateral heat damage won't bite it in the rear. Not great for all situations but can safely out burn a Firestarter and still actually have damage producing weapons.
(The Davion can kill PBIs in droves with the Scarecrow. Liao can torch the world around them with the Catapult. Kurita tried with the Phoenix Hawk L but failed. At least that had TSEMP for double duty.)

[Alexander Knight]

Right, the problem is... even using a 250 rated engine allows you to hide 10 heatsinks into the engine. For big beefy mechs like the Ti' Ts'ang (oh god I mangled that) can hide 14 DHS in the engine.

Yes, and the example given earlier had a 'mech with 18 DHS and LFF vs a 'mech with 10 DHS and FRA.  That's 19 crits the DHS/LFF 'mech gives up to the FRA 'mech when using a 250-rated engine.  For something like the Ti'Ts'ang it's still 13 crits.

[Col Toda]

Most military hardware does not stay exclusive to one faction in the long run . If the technology is a must have such as double heat sinks it happens faster . If it is a niche technology like iNARC  it may never happen . The Plasma Rifle falls somewhere in the middle .  If you want bad enough you can reverse engineer it with time . Perceived Critical Technology such as double heat sinks endo steel and endo composite may take a very few years to get into the pipeline and go across known space . Some things are very simple like machine gun arrays that take little time and resources to do  .  C3 masters and slaves did not stay the the DC but went everywhere because the perceived need to fight the clans with more parity . Heat Resistant armor is 10 pts per ton and Heavy Ferro fibrous is about 20pts per ton so for vehicles it is somewhat a wash and standard armor is 16pts per ton . If you have design that has max armor with standard you only have 62.5% of max armor of this new stuff and you are therefore sacrificing firepower and or endurance to get that back . I do not see anyone adding this armor to an established logistical train without an over riding strategic need to . The advantage of maximum armor with maximum firepower cannot happen with this armor since you have to trade too much tonnage to get that maximum armor ; then you are not doing enough damage to effect the out come of a battle anyway .