Author Topic: Playing BT with metal and microchips  (Read 7048 times)

00Dawg

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Playing BT with metal and microchips
« on: 23 May 2012, 11:24:45 »
A couple of weeks ago I picked up a new Nook Tablet, 16GB version.  This past weekend I took the opportunity to try it out in a session of everyone's favorite game.

As prep work, I purchased the ezPDF Reader APP, downloaded and installed PDF995 on my computer, and then used Solaris SkunkWerks to print a PDF of (what I thought would be) all the pertinent 'Mechs' record sheets (8 in total) in a single document.  I was expecting another player to run half the force, so I printed the remainder on paper.  I also moved a PDF copy of Total Warfare and other rulebooks over to the Tablet.

The tablet was easily able to render the rulebooks, and they looked good.  Scrolling across pages, zooming in and out, and all the aesthetics were as good as I had hoped.  However, the search function leaves something to be desired.  It's slow, and I believe starts from the page you're on without returning to the beginning of the document.  I also didn't notice any increase in speed for more than one search.  If you have to use it, always jump back to the beginning of the document, which is actually really easy by comparison.

The record sheet PDF looked good, but the problem came when I tried to use it for recording damage.  Zooming in closely required a two-step screen rewrite that took several seconds.  The annotation tools were also difficult to access due to the size of the icons, and the drawing tool frequently didn't record my taps.  Sometimes it would record taps, but not lines.  I held up my opponents on several occasions, much to my chagrin.  Flipping between sheets was usually quick, but sometimes it would need to pause to reload a new sheet.  This was disconcerting as well.  To top it all off, my fingertip eventually got sore from tapping.  Combine with having to flip between tablet and paper for the other 'Mechs I had to cover, and I left rather disappointed in the process, even if the game was still fun.

However, hope always surges anew.  Upon arriving home, I sat down with the tablet and looked deeper into my problems.  From there, I came up with a number of recommendations that made my newest test runs go far smoother.  I'll try them out next game as well.
1.  Print each record sheet as its own PDF.  The tablet never gave me any speed problems opening the first page of a document, and you can get to any document with two clicks.  You also don't have to remember that the Catapult was on page 6 while the Dragon was on page 4.  Eventually you'll have a stockpile that you can select the day's roster from and move into a temporary folder for easy access.
2.  Hold the tablet horizontal.  I don't know why I didn't think of this during the game, but the default zoom level changes when you rotate the tablet, and when horizontal it's large enough that you can mark individual armor dots without further zooming.  This eliminates a lot of delay.
3.  Get used to doing annotations in quick spurts.  It sucks to do all your marking for a single turn in one go, and then realize you don't want to remove that mark at 9 on the heat scale because it'll also take 25 points of armor damage and a hip critical hit off the sheet. 
4.  Get a stylus.  A normal retracted pen doesn't work.  I don't have a stylus yet, but I will.  Soon.

Ask away with questions and I'll do my best to answer.

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Spaceman

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Re: Playing BT with metal and microchips
« Reply #1 on: 23 May 2012, 17:15:24 »
I have done some experiments on my own with this. I own an Acer A500 tablet running ICS. It displays my pdfs just fine I have no problems searching in the Total Warfare PDF. It does take a bit to render pages at times, but for I use it for it is fine. Now the major problem I have is the touch screen. For 95% of what I use my tablet for it is fantastic, the last 5% it really needs finer control. The problems really come down to system specs and the screen. There is no screen out there except for the Galaxy Note and Lenovo ThinkPad Screens that will ever be fine enough to handle record sheet writing duties IMO. These screens have a digitizer in them that allows fine writing and control through a pen stylus. When you write with the Nook Tablet screen it's like using a huge sharpie marker to write with. The digitizer screens are like writing with a fine point pen. When you put the stylus on a digitizer screen the screen will take the input from the digitizer and not your hand. The stylus used for digitizer screens is different than the stylus you can buy for the Nook Color/Tablets screens.

I am waiting for the Galaxy Note 10.1 to come out since it has a digitize made by wacom and for the quad core processor. I can see tablets becoming a real part of peoples lives. I think we are really just a few years away from that tipping point.
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SCC

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Re: Playing BT with metal and microchips
« Reply #2 on: 23 May 2012, 18:24:13 »
The search thing is that way on PC's too, it allows you to set a starting point easy
On coronation: the viewer is width, that is the width document will zoom until the page width equals screen width, rather useful

PhoeniX0302

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Re: Playing BT with metal and microchips
« Reply #3 on: 23 May 2012, 20:03:45 »
I bought a Lenovo Thinkpad Tablet for my research in Japan. I wanted to use PDFs of Japanese books that I scanned with OCR, so that I can look up unknown character fast without interrupting the reading process.
The Thinkpad Tablet is quite good in handling TW-sized PDFs, so I can affirm that it`s good for most of the time. As you said, sometimes the tablet needs to pause for reloading the next batch of pages.

What is really cool with this tablet - and that is why I ultimately bought it - is that it has a stylus coming with it. So what, you might ask. Well, Lenovo implemented some kind of palm recognition feature, that allows to write on the screen with your palm on it without being detected by the display as input. That makes it really easy to annotate PDFs or even filling in damage on recordsheets.

I don`t currently know whether this kind of feature is part of Android 4 ICS (which is coming to the Thinkpad in just a few days), but I think that this is really important for making tablets a real alternative to using papers...

Anyway, I wanted to recommend, to keep the RS on a 400dpi scale....size and quality are not worth it, and the tablet has to render more.

Wereferret

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Re: Playing BT with metal and microchips
« Reply #4 on: 23 May 2012, 22:30:33 »
Thanks for the review on this...I have a Nook Tablet but haven't tried it out yet for a BT game.  What program did you use to enable annotation?  Also I didn't realize that you could use a stylus with the Nook...I'll have to look into that.  I would imagine that would make things much easier for checking off armor.

Atlas3060

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Re: Playing BT with metal and microchips
« Reply #5 on: 23 May 2012, 22:40:17 »
EZPDF should have annotation by now, I know mine did
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Re: Playing BT with metal and microchips
« Reply #6 on: 24 May 2012, 05:52:34 »
What is really cool with this tablet - and that is why I ultimately bought it - is that it has a stylus coming with it. So what, you might ask. Well, Lenovo implemented some kind of palm recognition feature, that allows to write on the screen with your palm on it without being detected by the display as input. That makes it really easy to annotate PDFs or even filling in damage on recordsheets.

I don`t currently know whether this kind of feature is part of Android 4 ICS (which is coming to the Thinkpad in just a few days), but I think that this is really important for making tablets a real alternative to using papers...
FWIW that feature is called "palm rejection" by Hitachi. Several of their tablets have it as well. It's often seen in conjunction with dual digitizers (one capacitive so your finger taps register, one resistive so your stylus works).

But I've not had the opportunity to use a stylus with my Nook Color. I wonder how a Galaxy Note would do with these.
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You bought the box set and are ready to expand your BT experience. Now what? (Thanks Sartis!)

00Dawg

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Re: Playing BT with metal and microchips
« Reply #7 on: 24 May 2012, 08:22:57 »
EZPDF should have annotation by now, I know mine did
Correct.  I also neglected to mention one other step:  drastically increase the size of the icons for EZPDF.  This is key.  At the default size, it frequently didn't register or mis-registered my selections.

B&N sells a $20 stylus for the Nook, although I saw some on Amazon for cheaper that had Nook in the name.

And Spaceman is right, writing on the Nook Tablet is indeed like drawing with a Sharpie.  The good news is that when turned horizontally and the record sheet resizes, it comparatively draws like a smaller point Sharpie. 

My goal here was to find a way to use a cheap ($250), small tablet to make BT games easier and less resource intensive (paper, ink) to set up for.  It's not a smashing success yet, but I'm confident it can be done.

Once I'm done with the record sheets, I need to find a dice or game app that lets me control the number and color of the dice rolled so that I can reduce lengthy groups of rolling.  However, I reserve the right to return this task to the physical world at any time.  There's just something about rolling them by hand and then seeing the horror on your opponent's face when they come up with that kill shot.   8)  >:D

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Spaceman

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Re: Playing BT with metal and microchips
« Reply #8 on: 24 May 2012, 15:08:36 »
I am very interested on how successful you are. There are some dice apps like dice bag tzdice that may help.
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PhoeniX0302

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Re: Playing BT with metal and microchips
« Reply #9 on: 24 May 2012, 20:23:26 »
Once I'm done with the record sheets, I need to find a dice or game app that lets me control the number and color of the dice rolled so that I can reduce lengthy groups of rolling.  However, I reserve the right to return this task to the physical world at any time.  There's just something about rolling them by hand and then seeing the horror on your opponent's face when they come up with that kill shot.   8)  >:D

I tapped into various dice apps from the Android Market, but for me, having the dice rolled physically is really different.

Yesterday I read somewhere in the news, that Samsung has redesigned its upcoming Galaxy Note 10.1 Tablet, so that it can hold the S-stylus that comes with it. Considering, that the Note mobile itself was quite successful, this tablet might be interesting for some of you! But then, it`s not that cheap...

Wereferret

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Re: Playing BT with metal and microchips
« Reply #10 on: 26 May 2012, 14:18:07 »
Just thinking more into this, does the EZPDF program (or any PDF program) allow you to quickly mark and export PDF pages to a new file?  So if I load up my massive RS3050U pdf, can I mark the pages for the lance of mechs I want to use that particular game and quickly export them into a new pdf?  That way I can swipe through a four-page pdf that has only relevant mechs, vs. a 250 page tome.

I do like the idea!

00Dawg

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Re: Playing BT with metal and microchips
« Reply #11 on: 26 May 2012, 20:44:02 »
If it does, I haven't figured out how.

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Re: Playing BT with metal and microchips
« Reply #12 on: 27 May 2012, 08:01:52 »
One day I will figure out how to turn a Record Sheet into an editable  PDF Form, so that each item can be edited separately, instead of annotated.
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Re: Playing BT with metal and microchips
« Reply #13 on: 27 May 2012, 20:14:23 »
Unfortunately only half the problem is on the creation end, you don't use pictures, but something the enduser can fill in, the other half is on the user end, they have to use PDF editing software, not a viewer, so it's going to be a long battle

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Re: Playing BT with metal and microchips
« Reply #14 on: 28 May 2012, 01:35:14 »
Very nifty, Dawg! I had noyt thought of it, maybe this will ptompt me to buy a tablet after all. So, can you use it instead of printed record sheets to record damage?
If not, I have a humble request to TPTB for them to find a way to make it so  O0
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Re: Playing BT with metal and microchips
« Reply #15 on: 28 May 2012, 02:04:01 »
You know...
Just a couple years ago, I doubt anyone would have thought of doing something like this
as even being possible. It is just amazing how the advance of technology is changing
gaming. I believe that companies that do not consider these developments are going to
find themselves being left further and further behind, simply because the gamers, themselves,
will likely not want to "downgrade" themselves.
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PhoeniX0302

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Re: Playing BT with metal and microchips
« Reply #16 on: 28 May 2012, 05:15:32 »
Very nifty, Dawg! I had noyt thought of it, maybe this will ptompt me to buy a tablet after all. So, can you use it instead of printed record sheets to record damage?
If not, I have a humble request to TPTB for them to find a way to make it so  O0

On the old forums, there was someone (and I think he is around here too) building a Mac-based programm, with which you could load up Mech-files and then track damage, heat, pilot, weapons (+ ammunition) and so on. From the screenshots it looked very interesting, but I do not know whether that particular program got finished.

Then we have the Scenario Game Tracker, that comes with SSW. That one is also very interesting!
So, what we basically need, is someone, who writes an Android app that is compatible to SSW and loads the Mech-file. From there, you just put in some required infos like the P/G and pilot name and so on....then start...

Wouldn`t that be cool?!

00Dawg

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Re: Playing BT with metal and microchips
« Reply #17 on: 29 May 2012, 10:25:33 »
Very nifty, Dawg! I had noyt thought of it, maybe this will ptompt me to buy a tablet after all. So, can you use it instead of printed record sheets to record damage?
Yes.  You use the annotation function of your PDF program (EZ PDF Reader for me).  However, I strongly recommend anyone wanting to try this out do so extensively before using it versus a live opponent.   ::)

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khanjohn

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Re: Playing BT with metal and microchips
« Reply #18 on: 29 May 2012, 18:40:05 »
I want a sheet tha can be viewed on tablet ro computer but also can be colored in for the circles then it would rock.

whistler

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Re: Playing BT with metal and microchips
« Reply #19 on: 29 May 2012, 21:04:05 »
very cool.  i just got an ASUS Transformer Pad and have been trying to figure this out... got something new to try.  thanks!  O0
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Re: Playing BT with metal and microchips
« Reply #20 on: 31 May 2012, 16:12:07 »
And here I thought that we would be talking about playing BattleTech with miniatures made from microchips, as if pewter wasn't costly as is. ;D
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Re: Playing BT with metal and microchips
« Reply #21 on: 02 June 2012, 15:12:35 »
has anyone tried using Solaris Game Tracker?  i think it may actually be EXACTLY what we want here... instead of trying to make marks on PDFs you just get check boxes for crits and number boxes for armor and other numbers.  i need to play around with it, but i think that importing a mech force would keep everything right at your fingertips as well...

i'm hella excited here, gotta experiment.  if this works the way i am thinking it can, Skyhigh's lease on my gaming soul will be upgraded to full ownership. 
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00Dawg

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Re: Playing BT with metal and microchips
« Reply #22 on: 05 June 2012, 13:39:28 »
Haven't tried Game Tracker yet, although it does look promising.  Not sure what pseudo-tablets it will run on.

In the meantime, my 2nd go at using the Nook Tablet in a gaming environment went smashingly.  Definitely still need to pick up a stylus, but I only held up my opponents a couple of times in a 12v12 matchup, and never for more than a minute or two. 

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Spaceman

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Re: Playing BT with metal and microchips
« Reply #23 on: 05 June 2012, 22:13:15 »
Did you do anything differently this time?
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Patrick Dupree

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Re: Playing BT with metal and microchips
« Reply #24 on: 07 June 2012, 02:41:40 »
My brother has an ipad he uses with all RPG sessions, doing character tracking with a app called Dicenomicon.
We even used the Dicenomicon to build our own Blood Bowl Dice.
But unfortunately I have not figured out how I could do a Battletech hit location dice. It seems the program does not support d36. 

A record sheet tracking software would be so cool and environmentally friendly, as I would not need to print out all the record sheets.
Also it would free a meter of shelf space occupied by the record sheet folders.
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Re: Playing BT with metal and microchips
« Reply #25 on: 07 June 2012, 06:39:09 »
Honestly, what I think we need is someone to just develop a Battletech record sheet app. Fill in the numbers. Save it. Call it up later.

00Dawg

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Re: Playing BT with metal and microchips
« Reply #26 on: 07 June 2012, 08:37:16 »
Did you do anything differently this time?
I followed steps 1, 2, and 3 in my first post.  Will be purchasing a stylus soon as well.

Meanwhile, a BT record sheet app would be just what the doctor ordered.  Throwing in a customizable D6 dice app would be icing on the cake. 

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LordChaos

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Re: Playing BT with metal and microchips
« Reply #27 on: 07 June 2012, 22:08:35 »
Meanwhile, a BT record sheet app would be just what the doctor ordered.  Throwing in a customizable D6 dice app would be icing on the cake.

I've been pursuing this with a co-worker of mine.  He thinks it would be quite simple to import data from say SSW or MM files and use them to create a record sheet app for the android OS.  Thing is, I just can't seem to get him to commit the weekend he says he would need to do it.  I believe it's his perceived lack of motivation (he's only a casual btech player).

Beyond that, doesn't MS still hold the license for all things digital with regard to Btech?  Wouldn't a andriod OS app violate that license?  If not... I'll waive the "you can publish" carrot at him and see if I can get him to do it.
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Re: Playing BT with metal and microchips
« Reply #28 on: 08 June 2012, 07:10:09 »
As long as you dont put any Battletech/MW trade dress on it, and avoid monetary transactions, I dont think it'd be an issue. It's how SSW and the like get away with it.