SLDF Lack of dedicated Inf Dropships

[2ndAcr]

 I find it funny how the SLDF who used a ton of Infantry that there is a total lack of dedicated large Infantry carrying Dropships.  Only the Colossus carries a full Battalion worth of Infantry. It is just hard for me to understand how the SLDF deployed 3-6 Infantry Regiments per Division. Only after the Star League collapse do we see dedicated Battalion carrying Dropships appear. Condor and later the Seeker.

 MUL does not list the Drost as active in SLDF era's. They at least haul a Battalion.

[Adrian Gideon]

Or we just never received information on their dedicated infantry DropShips.
A blind spot in the writing doesn't necesarrily mean a blind spot in the universe.

[Death by Lasers]

   A lot Dropships are described as having numerous variants (TRO:3057 has some good fluff).  Both the Union and Overlord are quoted as coming in dozens of different configurations including Cargo carrying varieties.  The Union for example has a combined arms transport version and an cargo hauling version (the most common).  The Overlord is also noted as being made in over two dozen variants.  It seems the traditional mech haulers are more than just mech haulers but also general purpose ships.

  My guess is that Unions and Overlords along with other dropships are probably the backbone of the SDLF infantry transportation fleet.  It still doesn't give the SDLF a dedicated Infantry Transport in the strictest sense but I can't imagine a transport being good for hauling mechs or cargo and being bad for transporting infantry. 

  Given all the fluff about how the staple transports actually come in different cargo hauling configurations I tend treat the cargo as variable the general chassis as fixed.  Although, an official set of record sheets on common dropship variants would be cool but not strictly needed.

Edit:  Ok scratch the Union.  I decided to reread the section in TRO:3057 and realized that the Union infantry variant might not be likely.  The main reason being is the fluff describes a version carrying 2 platoons of foot as being scarce because of the need to upgrade the life support systems.  If the combined arms version is scarce for this reason a full infantry transport would probably be rarer.

[bobthecoward]

I always thought they would just modify a mule.

How many soldiers can you out in the 74 tons of union space?

[Tai Dai Cultist]

The SLDF had oodles of Warships.  There's enough capacity right there to transport all the infantry you could want.  Known dropships and shuttlecraft are plenty to ferry troops down to the world from the warship(s) in orbit.

[Colt Ward]

No, a infantry carrier version would be perfectly fine- its trying to cram in lances of mechs, armor and ASF that starts running it tight on space . . . its already too low on cargo space like most 'late' SLDF DS.  Strip out the mechs and convert the ASF cubbies to say 4 or 6 SC cubicles and you can get a decent troop transport.

To OP, they have redressed this somewhat but some examples-
Fury- light company combat team
Intruder- reinforced battalion transport
DroST IIA- 2 mechanized company transport (vehs are cargo)

Combined Arms transports-
Fortress
Excalibur
Lee
Colossus
and I think I am missing one

Post SLDF-
Condor- reinforced light battalion combat team

But the main point for massed troop carriers . . . it would be handled like it was in WWI & WWII as well as more modern conflicts.  Cargo carriers and passenger ships (or for modern airlines) are impressed and converted to carry bodies.  Considering we know have cargo container support facilities which allow bases to adjust according to needs, IMO it should not be a stretch for their to be such equipment stashes in SL/House military warehouses.

[Colt Ward]

As TDC also points out, small craft would be better to ferry troops to the LZ or their strategic targets . . . which means converting cargo to troop space on a Behemoth might not be a bad idea.

As for the Union . . . it could transport 2 infantry regiments (20 foot companies), 6 SC for landings, and 630t of cargo space.  I am not sure you want to convert ships to hold any more . . . even 2 regiments is a bit much IMO due to the 'eggs in 1 basket' theory of combat transport.

[glitterboy2098]

honestly i think we should have seen a militarized Monarch by now. perfect for moving massive numbers of infantry, and a militarized version could downgrade the quarters to save the tonnage needed for enough infantry bays to haul all of the infantry gear.

[Archangel]

It should probably be noted that more than a few Divisions didn't have a full DropShip (or JumpShips) complement especially Infantry Divisions which weren't meant for offensive actions/rapid deployment.  When they were redeployed additional JumpShip/DropShip squadrons were temporarily assigned by the Naval Command.

[Death by Lasers]

The SLDF had oodles of Warships.  There's enough capacity right there to transport all the infantry you could want.  Known dropships and shuttlecraft are plenty to ferry troops down to the world from the warship(s) in orbit.

  I really like that idea.  If it isn't explicitly stated in canon it should be as it would give a good in-universe explanation as to why SDLF era Warships have such massive cargo holds.

[Tai Dai Cultist]

honestly i think we should have seen a militarized Monarch by now. perfect for moving massive numbers of infantry, and a militarized version could downgrade the quarters to save the tonnage needed for enough infantry bays to haul all of the infantry gear.

I once  posted infantry transport configurations for the Buccaneer and Mammoth class bulk haulers.

[2ndAcr]

 If I had a clue how to create one, I would. I had a hard drive fail on my main PC, so lost my Campaign I was doing that started 2785. I was creating a new force, but more infantry heavy when I slammed into the total lack of decent infantry carriers for the SLDF. Mechs and heavy tanks are easy, light vehicles and infantry are the stumbling blocks. Want 2 Battalions of Mechs, easy to do, carry a armor regiment of heavy tanks, piece of cake. But try to use a Regiment of Infantry and your in trouble.

 I got all the rule books, but no clue how to convert something that could be used with MekHQ, which is what I am using to run my campaign. So any volunteers that want to create even a modified Intruder, Lion, Triumph that carries an infantry Battalion or more and 20-30 light vehicles plus some supplies that can be used in MekHQ, I will gladly accept the offer.

 Intruder carries 4 platoons of infantry in MekHQ. I was trying to stay close to the MUL which does not list the Drost at all. But I might have to resort to using it because in 2784/2785 you are not moving infantry easily. Heck even moving light vehicles outside of loading them as cargo is a nightmare. Year 2800-2810 cannot get here quick enough, come on Condor and Seeker, I need the light vehicle bays and infantry bays.

 I understand the temp assigned, but was just stating the lack of any canon infantry transports of the SLDF era that carry a Battalion or more. I mean they must have swarmed Terra with thousands of Fury's. Just saying.

[sillybrit]

There's lots of unnecessary reinventing of the wheel here as the SLDF already had a perfectly adequate infantry transport, the Czar. It's a 6400t spheroid carrying 36 infantry platoons, that first served the HAF and then the SLDF.

Yes, it's a relatively late addition to the game, having only been publish in XTRO Prim III, but the scarcity of early dedicated infantry carriers was probably one of the reasons it got the nod for that XTRO.

[I am Belch II]

It was mechs first everything else second.

[wantec]

Something to consider is that an infantry unit is going to devour (often literally) tons of consumables. More so than a vehicle or 'Mech unit of organizational size. Your typical cargo dropship would likely be the best option, keeping the consumables close to the consumers, that way in transit you don't have to shuffle a lot of cargo between ships just to keep the squishies fed.

[Frabby]

The Fury and Intruder have already been mentioned; I'll throw in the Seeker for good measure.
In the BattleTech universe, if the infantry contingent on such a vessel isn't enough for a mission then it's not an infantry mission and you're going to deploy proper BattleMechs anyways.

Keep in mind that military DropShips are deployment vehicles, not pleasure cruisers. They're meant for combat insertions and as the spearhead of any ground action force.

So I reckon the bulk of all military forces travels in regular cargo or passenger DropShips.

[snewsom2997]

Why use dedicated infantry Dropships, when you have thousands of Warships and Jumpships and probably a million Shuttle craft?

Take a McKenna with 16 Shuttles, figure a company of infantry per Shuttle and now you have a nice fat infantry regiment on world. Figure it takes 30-60 mins to load drop and reload and you have a Brigade by mid morning, and a Division by the End of the day. Just from a single warship. That McKenna is going to have a half dozen other warship with it, with another 40-60 Shuttle Craft. The numbers get stupid real quick, and more than explains the lack of Infantry Droppers.

[Arkansas Warrior]

I keep seeing these references to carrying infantry on WarShips.  Are there a bunch of SLDF WarShips with massive amounts of passenger quarters somewhere that I'm not seeing?  Where are you putting these infantry?  Because if we're just converting cargo space, it seems like it'd be more efficient to do that on cargo DropShips, since you can transport significantly more infantry in one trip that way than having to run dozens of shuttles back and forth several times.

[Robroy]

I keep seeing these references to carrying infantry on WarShips.  Are there a bunch of SLDF WarShips with massive amounts of passenger quarters somewhere that I'm not seeing?  Where are you putting these infantry?  Because if we're just converting cargo space, it seems like it'd be more efficient to do that on cargo DropShips, since you can transport significantly more infantry in one trip that way than having to run dozens of shuttles back and forth several times.

Not to mention that there would be a lot more junpships and dropships to work with instead of using a warship as a troop transport.

[Kovax]

Another possibility is that the SLDF warships typically carried thousands of infantry in converted cargo space (they've got no shortage of that), and the dropships were merely used to shuttle them to and from the planetary surface.  Several small craft shuttles and a few company-level droppers would be sufficient to gradually transfer that infantry, but a converted cargo hauler DS could shuttle battalions of infantry at a time between the warship and planet.

With the warships no longer present in quantity, it seems like the ability to move troops between planets has taken a massive hit, and the Succession Wars are more about raiding than invasion largely due to the inability to carry enough infantry to occupy and pacify an entire planet.  Either the game needs to bring back warships as troop carriers, or else add a new set of dropships designed to ferry large numbers of troops.

While bulk troop transport variants of several dropships have been casually mentioned, there have been no official examples (with record sheets or full stats) presented.  Hastily commandeered luxury passenger dropships like the Princess don't count, because they're designed for a high level of passenger comfort, not maximum troop capacity.

[Frabby]

While bulk troop transport variants of several dropships have been casually mentioned, there have been no official examples (with record sheets or full stats) presented.  Hastily commandeered luxury passenger dropships like the Princess don't count, because they're designed for a high level of passenger comfort, not maximum troop capacity.

I'd argue that during the week-long, sometimes month-long trip to the target planet, a high level of passenger comfort is imperative to keep morale up.
Military DropShips are deployment vehicles more loke Higgins Boats, not liners to travel on for weeks on end. Not for larger infantry formations anyways.

[Arkansas Warrior]

I'd argue that during the week-long, sometimes month-long trip to the target planet, a high level of passenger comfort is imperative to keep morale up.
Military DropShips are deployment vehicles more loke Higgins Boats, not liners to travel on for weeks on end. Not for larger infantry formations anyways.

I don't know that that's the case.  The Czar infantry-transport dropship mentioned upthread describes its infantry bays as including "berthing, recreation, and dining space".  That doesn't sound like any Higgins boat I ever saw.

[snewsom2997]

I don't know that that's the case.  The Czar infantry-transport dropship mentioned upthread describes its infantry bays as including "berthing, recreation, and dining space".  That doesn't sound like any Higgins boat I ever saw.

Yeah I expect stacked bunks, a mess and a rec room.

The only higgins boat type accommodations, would be in the back of an IFV or VTOL.

[Tai Dai Cultist]

I don't know that that's the case.  The Czar infantry-transport dropship mentioned upthread describes its infantry bays as including "berthing, recreation, and dining space".  That doesn't sound like any Higgins boat I ever saw.

Seats that recline can be called "berthing" space.
Aisles between the seats can be called "recreation" space.
A microwave kitchenette can be called "dining" space.

Travelling via bays is, imo, like real-world flying. Except it's not for hours but days or weeks on end.  Pure torture.

It's not a binary condition of having amenities or not.  The quality of amenities matters.  And steerage class quarters will always be superior to bays.  It's just mathematically impossible for infantry bays to have amenities comparable to quarters. 

[Arkansas Warrior]

That's not really the tone of the article, that also notes that 4 Czars and a jumpship were the SLDF's standard way to transport an infantry brigade.  I really doubt the SLDF's normal MO was to torture their infantry on the way into combat.

[Tai Dai Cultist]

That's not really the tone of the article, that also notes that 4 Czars and a jumpship were the SLDF's standard way to transport an infantry brigade.  I really doubt the SLDF's normal MO was to torture their infantry on the way into combat.

No, but it does mesh in with the idea upthread that transport dropships, even Czars, are meant to be space higgins boats.  A few minutes, or at worst few hours flight down from the orbital WarShip where the infantry are berthed for long term voyages.

And that the universe had to deal with the loss of WarShips by either forcing people to "fly cattlecar" for entire transits, or start having bulk haulers fill in for missing warship cargo capacity.

[Arkansas Warrior]

No, but it does mesh in with the idea upthread that transport dropships, even Czars, are meant to be space higgins boats.  A few minutes, or at worst few hours flight down from the orbital WarShip where the infantry are berthed for long term voyages.

And that the universe had to deal with the loss of WarShips by either forcing people to "fly cattlecar" for entire transits, or start having bulk haulers fill in for missing warship cargo capacity.

But that doesn't mesh with the XTRO fluff, which describes teaming four Czars with a Liberty-class jumpship.  Unless those Libertys are using pirate pointts exclusively, that means that the infantry are riding, at a minimum, all the way from the jump point, and quite likely making the whole interstellar trip in the same dropship mounted to the same jumpship (or else why have the jumpship as part of the team at all?  It makes no sense to transport them across the sphere in WarShips' theoretical passenger bays, only to move them to DropShips mated to a plain JumpShip for the last jump.)

[Terminax]

I ascribe all the transportation and logistics issues Battletech faces to the original writers not knowing terribly much (if anything) of how such things works and while there are attempts to sort of fix things here or there, they're patching over patches patching over older patches and eventually you get a really bumpy product as a result. Most transports aren't all that well designed in the first place and I'm sure there's room to plunk in a few more dropships (and Jumpship) classes I'm not really sure it's worth the effort.

[Weirdo]

To answer the thread's original question, a rereading of the Czar's fluff says it served for practically the entirety of the Star League's existence. Carrying 36 platoons per ship, I think we can safely say we've found the heavy infantry hauler you've been looking for. They go obsolete in 2740, and my guess is that after that the troops get carried in big combined-arms ships like the Lee and Excalibur, and small ships like the Fury or Intruder.

[2ndAcr]

 Sorry guys, I forgot about the Czar because it is not listed in MekHQ. But that would work perfectly anyway. Well, I will just have to come up with something else.

[Daryk]

The Union would work.  Taking out the two Fighter cubicles gives you 300 tons, which could be four light vehicle bays (at 50 tons each) and two infantry platoons to round out a combined arms company with almost a hundred tons of cargo left over for consumables and spares.

[2ndAcr]

 My problem is I don't know how to modify Dropships for MekHQ play. Plus my unit was going to be infantry hefty. 4 Battalions of Infantry. Guess I will soldier on until 2800 or so and then sell some Dropships to buy Condor and Seeker when they become available.

 I would modify an Intruder in a heartbeat since it has a decent cargo load I can swipe from. Or even a Lion. Ripping out the Mechs for infantry bays and adding more light vehicle bays.

[Giovanni Blasini]

I modified the file for the Aquilla to match the version in Interstellar Operations, calling it the "DropShuttles" instead of "Standard". Had to edit the file for the ship by hand and save it as a new file in another folder.

[Hellraiser]

There is a line, somewhere, I don't recall where, I want to say it was in one of the Merc Handbooks maybe? that talked about primitive tech before we got the new TW era stats for primitive tech.

Somewhere it mentioned that there are SL era derivatives of any DS found in DS&JS even if those ships were given late SL intro dates.

The DS from DS&JS were replacing whatever it was from the Age of War.

So basically there is some form of ancient "Condor" out there that moves battalion-regiments of infantry.


Obviously now we have the Czar that fills in the blank of what that ancient AoW version of the Condor really was & I for one think its a very nice ship.

But I just wanted to mention that somewhere there is a line stating that there are more DS than we have stats for.  But its a 10-20 year old quote & I really can't recall where I saw it right now.


Or you can go converted Mule-Overlord, either of those will give you a BIG cavern of infantry transport space & are your most likely candidates for having an infantry mover variant.

[2ndAcr]

 Okay, I did more digging and found the Czar buried in MekHQ.........you have to use Unofficial setting for tech level. Go figure. Plus did some tinkering after I tripped over it. Found it was super easy to lower Intruder cargo to 600 and boost infantry to 18 Plts. If I so desired anyway. But I might play with a Lion or 2 and boost their light armor carry capability. Not sure yet.

 Czar is nice and big, but that armor is weak. Plus not keen on it's quirks. So decided to use 2 Drost Dropships instead, even though I am pretty sure they were pre drop collar. Heavier armor and faster to boot. Just have to use 2 instead of 1 ship. Seeing as my unit is ex-SLDF, ships are no problem.

[Colt Ward]

They were also post-collar, if you read the fluff while the Hegemony may have quite producing them other companies kept churning out clones.  They survive, in what should be decent numbers IMO based on the description, until the modern era.

[Jellico]

Frankly I don't know why we have Mech carriers able to handle more than a battalion let alone infantry carriers.

Mech bays and their ilk exist to get a combat unit into action quickly. Often under fire. In reality the biggest Mech transport in the game is going to be a bare bones Mule or something equivalent with the Mechs tied down as cargo. The same is true of any other unit and cargo containers for self contained infantry berths have been described before.
In other words, where is the need to deploy large numbers of infantry straight into combat in the second wave?

[Kit deSummersville]

You mean the US Army doesn't shuttle all it's soldiers around in Bradley's?

[gomiville]

Frankly I don't know why we have Mech carriers able to handle more than a battalion let alone infantry carriers.

Mech bays and their ilk exist to get a combat unit into action quickly. Often under fire. In reality the biggest Mech transport in the game is going to be a bare bones Mule or something equivalent with the Mechs tied down as cargo. The same is true of any other unit and cargo containers for self contained infantry berths have been described before.
In other words, where is the need to deploy large numbers of infantry straight into combat in the second wave?

This is an argument for the small craft orbital insertion method, I think.  If you're deploying infantry in large numbers, it's probably not a raid, and you've probably gained at least momentary space supremacy.  So, park a ship in orbit and start dropping platoons or companies of infantry close to where you want them.  I'm picturing small spheroid shuttles, able to land in any relatively flat field or parking lot. 

Need to take that media broadcast station?  Drop shuttles by the front and back doors. Want to secure that crossroads?  Drop a shuttle.  Need spotters on the high ground over a valley?  Shuttle.

Infantry are already niche elements, compared to 'mechs.  You're not throwing masses of troops into the grinder, Stalingrad style.  You're throwing masses of 'mechs into the grinder.  It looks cooler. 

So, deploy the infantry in small lots where they're needed most.  Then follow on with dragooned civilian liners and regiments worth of infantry walking off the ship onto the tarmac.

[SteelRaven]

BT has a number infantry transports that can be carried on existing Dropships so a Cheyenne or Pelican is not really needed.

[Colt Ward]

 . . . your not going to pull that Heavy Tracked APC up into a light veh bay and leave the troops inside.

[SteelRaven]

I never said they would be in the APC the ENTIRE time.

Might as well ask where the Mechwariors and Tank Crew sleep during the trip.

[snewsom2997]

. . . your not going to pull that Heavy Tracked APC up into a light veh bay and leave the troops inside.

You could, wouldn't recommend it though if you want the troops to fight for your side once planetside.

[Arkansas Warrior]

For those operating on the "DropShips are Higgins Boats" theory, why not?  They're only going to be in there a few hours tops.  They could lounge around the vehicle bay for most of that time, only buttoning up just before time to roll out.

[Kit deSummersville]

For those operating on the "DropShips are Higgins Boats" theory, why not?  They're only going to be in there a few hours tops.  They could lounge around the vehicle bay for most of that time, only buttoning up just before time to roll out.

Well, even assuming it's only a few hours, I don't know if the inside of an APC is designed to accommodate the rotation of the DropShip from acceleration to deceleration.

[Weirdo]

As I understand it, most APCs are tightly packed enough that there really isn't enough room for dangerous bouncing around when the ship goes inertial for turnover.

[SteelRaven]

If we are talking rapid deployment (rapid as BTU deployments can get anyway) I would imagine BTU APCs would be built to accommodate Dropship travel like the USCMC M577 of the Aliens franchise.
They made it safe for Mechwarriors, I would imagine it was pioneered for PBI and tank crews. 

If that is a misconception on my part, the I would need to ask if their are any hard limits on crew capacity of the upper decks of the drop ship. Load up the upper deck like a C-130 and wait till your planet side to make your way down to cargo and load into the APCs while 'Mechs secure the deployment area.   

[Colt Ward]

Yes, they should be able to roll on and roll off though IMO that ability is different than a light vehicle cubicle.  I really wish we had something for small craft to be able to do that- a LCT type, similar to how armored vehicles are secured on lowboys, railcars and aircraft today.

For tactical deployment from Intruders or other combined arms transports I would absolutely imagine that the infantry load up in their APC/IFV/ISV, strap in and enjoy the trip planet side.  The vehicle driver is instructed by the loadmaster what order their unloading would be, some DS crew personnel would play ground guide to the driver & VC/TC, down the ramp and out on the new planet.

But those troops are not sitting in the vehicle's troop space the whole week or so between the planet and jump point or however many weeks they spend recharging to jump to their destination.  A (real) mechanized infantry company will need 3 platoon bays (15t) and either 3 light vehicle bays if you are using platoon-sized transports (150t) or 12 light vehicle bays if you are using squad-sized transports (600t) which is a waste of DS transport space.

Add to this not all infantry units will be mechanized or motorized- a vast majority should be regular foot, LPCs being their mode of transport.  Others could be airborne, using either conventionals or small craft for their air drops, some will be engineers, some will be military police, and even more will be support troops.  Techs, quartermaster/supply, admin, or any of the other 'tail' functions would use 'infantry' non-combat transport methods.  Each will have their own vehicles to transport and they should not go in a vehicle cubicle- though I admit I have planned on occasion for mech repair equipment to go in a light veh bay for my mercs.

Next consideration would be the MASH/CASH team . . . I think a Fury would work well for a small medical support team transport though a Condor might be more appropriate for a RCT combat movement . . . though it violates the 'eggs in 1 basket' rule.

Staying outside of the RCT transports and some of the 'discovered' SL stuff like the Lee & Colossus . . . IMO the most JS-friendly way to move a RCT for a invasion is to use-

Combat Drop
8 Overlords
1 Fortress
1 Union
1 Excalibur
2 Triumph
2 Intruders
1 Condor- MASH

2nd Wave
2 Jumbo- Armor/Infantry/Techs as cargo w/supplies
2 Jumbo- Supplies
1 Aquaduct- fuel carrier

21 Dropships not including what is needed to get aero support to the fight, or gunships for escort.  Mechs set down in 8 battalion transports, 1 company transport and part of 2 combined arms transports.  The combined arms transports will deposit 2 armor regiments and a company.  The armor transports puts another regiment into combat, and can have roughly a battalion of infantry in place.  Honestly not sure the Triumphs are needed if a commander can get one of the rare Excaliburs.

[SCC]

Um, Colt Ward, how many regiments of 'Mechs does this RCT have?

[Death by Lasers]

  That seems like a good/efficient mix, although from canon Dropship RATs (AT2, FM:U, etc.) it looks like most the Successor States tend to use a lot more small Dropships like Unions and the like than Overlords.  I'm not sure if this is also true in the Star-League but I have a feeling its the same.

  As to why they do I honestly have no idea although I'm sure with a little creativity someone can find or come up with a good fluff justification.  Maybe something like the smaller Dropships are easier to find Dropports for or they tax the Jumpships less.

  At the very least the smaller Dropships tend to provide more armor and firepower per mech but at an extremely steep cost not only in the price of the actual ship but in the number of docking collars needed to transport the flotilla.

[SteelRaven]

BTU seems to be one of those Sci-fi universes that believe in doing more with less (Why I keep bringing up Aliens, notice how small those Marine deployments happen to be?) It's unrealistic compared to actual military deployments but the BTU only keeps one foot in reality, we are talking about universe that focuses Giant Stompy Robots after all.

[2ndAcr]

 Colt might be talking about a SLDF RCT which was roughly 3 Mech Reg strong

[truetanker]

Colt~

I'd use more Gazelles than Jumbo, allowing to even go as far as incorporating DroST, Fury and Gazelle in a one-two-three combo.

Hear me out:
DroST for the heavy Tanks ( up to 22 or so Tanks ), some Infantry ( 10 PBI ), Fury for more Infantry ( 4 PBI  ) and lighter Tanks ( 8 Tanks ) with the Gazelle carrying even more light Tanks ( up to 15 or so Tanks ).

This means just these three droppers equals to a possible mixed Battalion already. And add a Union with it's ASF support.... Bingo! Now we're at the magic four number... A full house for a Liberty...

TT

[Colt Ward]

Sorry I was flipping back and forth- I meant 2 Overlords.

TT, the reason you use Jumbos rather than Drost (which also takes them on as cargo btw), Fury or Gazelle is that you are moving them as cargo since they are not rolling right off into battle.  You load whatever armor units you want to do that with on Triumphs or the Excalibur.  The Jumbo also can load the infantry and support elements along with supplies- the whole point was the least number of hulls with a moderate strategic flexibility.

Death By Lasers . . . I agree that the Houses will have more single company transports than Overlords, but we are talking about a RCT which would generally get to draw on the best equipment.  A single mech regiment being transported by itself is more likely to have a Overlord, 5 Unions, a Seeker (Mech) and 2 Leopards with escorts if they even have a Overlord available.

[Arkansas Warrior]

Boilerman put together a spreadsheet years ago showing what a full strength RCT would look like down to the last cook and paper-pusher, including all transport assets.  I've got a copy somewhere, I'll link it if I can find it.

[Colt Ward]

Oh I was just looking at the first and second wave . . . to move the whole thing like a PCS?  I expect that would take years, because the dependents would also move on the House dime most likely.  And quite a few DS will be needed to move the supply structure.

[Demon55]

Boilerman put together a spreadsheet years ago showing what a full strength RCT would look like down to the last cook and paper-pusher, including all transport assets.  I've got a copy somewhere, I'll link it if I can find it.

Find its.  We must have this!  But if you cannot that is okay.  It may have been from quite sometime ago.

I could see the SL using civilian transports that had the amenities stripped out or modifying an existing dropship. 

Have a great day!
-Demon55

[Arkansas Warrior]

Sorry, got sidetracked.  Spreadsheet is linked below.

[Archangel]

TT, the reason you use Jumbos rather than Drost (which also takes them on as cargo btw), Fury or Gazelle is that you are moving them as cargo since they are not rolling right off into battle.  You load whatever armor units you want to do that with on Triumphs or the Excalibur.  The Jumbo also can load the infantry and support elements along with supplies- the whole point was the least number of hulls with a moderate strategic flexibility.

How well does the Jumbo work when the RCT has to quickly retreat from the planet due to superior enemy forces?  Especially when the assigned passengers and equipment are spread out across a continent guarding multiple locations (cities, military bases, supply depots, etc)?

The RCT unit commander would have to make the choice between abandoning troops, putting the DropShip and its passengers at ever increasing risk of being shot down each time it makes a pickup or assign a disproportionate number of fighters as escorts (thereby taking those fighters from other escort duties).

Not to mention the age-old mantra of 'Plan for the worst, hope for the best.'  What if they discovered the defenders were stronger (or simply closer) than expected and they were possibly going into a hot LZ or needed to quickly deploy into combat lest the wave 1 forces get overwhelmed?  Or discovered it after their LZ is suddenly in danger of being overrun?  Using a single DropShip like you propose the RCT can lose a huge portion of its combat strength in an instant.

[truetanker]

I think Boilerman might need to redesign the RCT.

We now have the Dictator and Command Dictator dropships.

TT

[Colt Ward]

How well does the Jumbo work when the RCT has to quickly retreat from the planet due to superior enemy forces?  Especially when the assigned passengers and equipment are spread out across a continent guarding multiple locations (cities, military bases, supply depots, etc)?

The RCT unit commander would have to make the choice between abandoning troops, putting the DropShip and its passengers at ever increasing risk of being shot down each time it makes a pickup or assign a disproportionate number of fighters as escorts (thereby taking those fighters from other escort duties).

Not to mention the age-old mantra of 'Plan for the worst, hope for the best.'  What if they discovered the defenders were stronger (or simply closer) than expected and they were possibly going into a hot LZ or needed to quickly deploy into combat lest the wave 1 forces get overwhelmed?  Or discovered it after their LZ is suddenly in danger of being overrun?  Using a single DropShip like you propose the RCT can lose a huge portion of its combat strength in an instant.

Well, I suggested 2 Jumbos and split the non-bay loaded Armored and infantry regiments to be split between them, putting all of 1 resource in a single dropship violates the dictum of a single point of failure.  I also had at least 1 regiment, more likely a regiment and a battalion set up in vehicle bays to be able to be delivered straight into combat.

Couple of flaws with your scenarios . . .

First, 'quickly' is a misnomer in just about any troop movement.  If you are being pushed off world, your AO is most likely a small area- not spread all over a continent or two, otherwise how are you getting pushed off world?  If they are getting pushed off world its not something that is going to happen in minutes- likely tens of hours if not days.  Which means vehicles- armor, troop carriers and support vehicles- can be loaded as the AO collapses.  My list also included 4 armor combat transports if you used the Triumphs which IMO depended on collar space & consumables packed- so the Excalibur, Outpost and Triumphs could take the last of the deployed armor as the AO is abandoned.

Second, if you are getting pushed off a world you are not likely leaving with all the troops and equipment you landed with at the beginning.  Since armor and infantry work well for defense which allows the mechs to be the mobile decisive element, you are likely going to have lost a chunk of armor in a failed invasion.  Which means you are not going to need all that cargo space you used to ship in equipment . . . and you are going to leave with less ammo. 

Third, if the LZ is getting overrun . . . the DS are going to load what they can and boost for orbit and what is on the ground might be able to perform a fighting retreat.  If its bad enough the armor would be sacrificed in a rearguard action while the more mobile mechs and any cav armor executes the break out (think Syrtis Fusiliers on Tikonov in 4SW).  If the troops in the LZ are getting overrun because they landed in a bad area (its what recon is for, kick those pathfinders out the side of a Small Craft for HALO drop) . . . you do not reinforce failure.  Second wave DS with cargo shipped troops would not be landed, it is tactically and strategically unsound.

Finally, if troops land a dropzone in a contested area . . . you have already screwed up the operation.  Look at Air Assault operations, for the most part helicopters put the troops in areas that are not actively defended at the outset.  Reinforcements may come in at the hot zone but the point of such a movement is to safely put the troops on the ground within striking distance of a target without being vulnerable.  For example look at the Blakist false flag op for Marantha in Double Blind- St Jamais dropship ops were properly executed.  The threat of landing all over tied down defenders and prevented them from consolidating.

[Arkansas Warrior]

I think Boilerman might need to redesign the RCT.

We now have the Dictator and Command Dictator dropships.

TT

I don't think so, for several reasons:
1) This document has been floating around for a while.  More than a decade, I'd wager.  No surprise it doesn't have newer ships.
2) The Dictators went practically extinct in the early Succession Wars, and the Davion RCT didn't come about until the reign of Prince Melissa, in the 2890s.  Probably not many Dictators still in Davion service by then.
3)  There's very little a dictator can do that an Overlord can't.

[truetanker]

Probably right, but thought that there might be a few on the books... Overlords are kinda the main thing, but officially " However, by 3075 the Magistracy of Canopus was able to gain possession of a large quantity of Dictator DropShips in pristine shape. "

What this means, is I don't know either.  ;D

But I thought it was because the RCT was a SLDF and not FedSun.

TT

[boilerman]

Sorry, got sidetracked.  Spreadsheet is linked below.

Bones Trossen put that together. I only managed to get him to upload it, after much badgering on my part. He posted it about the time I was working on the Combat Support Field Manual. IIRC Bones said he based it on WWII TOEs, US Army I think. Bones stressed at the time that it was only personal project and in no way should it be mistaken as cannon.

I deliberately trimmed the numbers for the TOEs I put in the CSFM to come in about half or less of Bones estimates.

[Nebfer]

Personally while the Tossen and bolier man ToEs are nice I generally use the older 4th Succession wars atlas view of the regiments (In short theirs 4 to 7 extra companies worth of supporting elements per regiment).

With an application of the support staff found in Strat and Int ops, and my own experience with looking at ToEs, for me most regiments come to around 1,500 to 2,500 troops.

[Kitsune413]

The SLDF used the insect mechs, Stingers and Wasps, as infantry. The Infantry carrier you are looking for are Overlord Class Dropships....

[Hellraiser]

Personally while the Tossen and bolier man ToEs are nice I generally use the older 4th Succession wars atlas view of the regiments (In short theirs 4 to 7 extra companies worth of supporting elements per regiment).

With an application of the support staff found in Strat and Int ops, and my own experience with looking at ToEs, for me most regiments come to around 1,500 to 2,500 troops.

Ditto.
I really like the look of those TO&Es