Author Topic: Mech of the Week: Woodsman  (Read 28737 times)

Moonsword

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Mech of the Week: Woodsman
« on: 10 June 2011, 10:37:31 »
Mech of the Week: Woodsman

The first Clan Wolf heavy OmniMech and the product of a much more careful design process rather than the rush job of many of its contemporaries, the Woodsman's shadow over the history of the Clans is long and proud.  For all that, the design is still a bit enigmatic, an enigma that I find intriguing.  We only have firm knowledge two configurations and hints of a third but one of them is the father of the most famous OmniMech configuration in all of BattleTech.  In the end, faced with the raising tide of Clan technology, the Woodsman went under, the faster heavy OmniMechs pushing the design and ultimately requiring successors to be designed.  (Contrary to what's implied in Golden Century, the Warhawk had little to do with that process.  It may have been sounding a death knell but the Timber Wolf was already off the assembly line at that point.)  Finally finding a worthy successor with the 2945 introduction of the Timber Wolf (itself the father of the Mad Cat Mks II and III as well as GM's Rakshasa  and contributing to the Mad Dog), a twin Arrow IV configuration inspired the Naga, and the Gargoyle (known as the Man O' War) to the Inner Sphere also traces its roots to the Woodsman's design.  The indirect influence its victories and defeats may have had on Clan 'Mech design is difficult to estimate but no doubt substantial.  For a 'Mech that was extinct by Operation Revival, that's quite a legacy.

The main resemblances to the Timber Wolf are the podspace, the 75 ton size, and the endo-steel frame.   Otherwise, visually, the Woodsman's design is far closer to the Gargoyle, especially the limb and hip design, but without giving the impression that the 'Mech is bucking for MVP in the Kerensky League.  The torso assembly actually reminds me somewhat of the Reseen Marauder family, though, particularly the MAD-9M.  The engine is a 300-rated Wolf standard fusion engine, providing the housing for 12 double heat sinks and a maximum speed of 64 kph, although a MASC system lets it accelerate to 86 kph for short distances.  13.5 tons of good old Durallex Heavy standard plate provides for protection 14 points lighter than the Timber Wolf's but fairly similar to the Night Gyr's in distribution.  Everything on the front passes the AC/20 test with 33 points on the CT, 23 on the sides, 22 on the arms, and 30 on the legs, with 10 and 7 points protecting the rear center and sides - not max but quite acceptable.  Care was taken to leave the right torso completely open with most of the endo-steel in the legs and head, while the MASC is in the left torso.  All of this together leaves a famous figure for podspace, the very same 27.5 tons carried by the Timber Wolf.  While the armor, speed, and engine changes leave a direct match to the Timber Wolf largely down to the pilots, terrain, and dice, one clear advantage goes to the newer 'Mech with three additional fixed freezers in its larger engine.  Those planning to adapt Timber Wolf configurations for their own games should keep this in mind.

The Woodsman Prime is very similar to the Timber Wolf Prime, something Golden Century promptly hangs a lampshade on, and might just have the edge on the more famous successor under some circumstances.  I'm sure most of you don't need me to tell you the full specs given just how many of us know the highlights by heart but since I'm such a swell excessively verbose and loquacious guy, I'm going to do it anyway.  The arms sport the classic over/under combination of an extended-range large and extended-range medium laser.  Each torso has an LRM 15 instead of the large 20 racks on the Timber Wolf but their endurance is doubled thanks to the three tons of ammo in the right torso.  The torso laser is an ERML instead of the MPL with only a half-ton of machine gun ammo (which is still more than enough to turn the right torso into slag a dozen times over with no help from the LRM rounds).  An ERSL was mounted in the left torso to get rid of that hanging half-ton.  Instead of the two freezers mounted by a Timber Wolf Prime, five were carried.  At long range, the combination means that it can slam the LRMs and ERLLs downrange without any heat gain, or you can use the an ERLL, two ERMLs, and both racks if you want to move for a neutral heat load.  For the endurance or ability to shrug off external heat, it may be worth using on a Timber Wolf, and the differences fit the Woodsman like a glove.

The Woodsman A is the practically obligatory flashbulb sniper that all good OmniMechs have always wanted to have when they grow up or possibly just some crazy Wolf love letter to the MAD-3D.  Historically, it was the predecessor to the Gargoyle A.  Each arm hosts an ER PPC for a head-capping doubletap.  The centerline has an ERSL and an MPL, with another medium pulse laser in the left torso.  Opposite the medium is a large, the third of the heavy weapons.  This one runs nastily hot on you if you're not careful, not even able to fire all three heavy energy weapons without losing an MP, but your opponent is definitely going to know they got hit.  Personally, I'd use it like an Awesome at longer ranges, rotating one of the ER PPCs in and out to cool off, while up close, switch to all three pulse lasers and an ER PPC unless you get excellent numbers to just open up completely.  This one is going to be an enormous pain to put down without any explosive hazards short of a golden BB, a rare case of a heavy pure zombie OmniMech configuration.  If you get the opportunity, an alpha may be worth considering.  It's fairly likely to shut the 'Mech down but your enemy may not be around to argue the point.

Respect your MASC failure chance and don't use it thoughtlessly.  5+ is reasonably safe but can still go disastrously wrong - I had one blow during testing that nearly got me drubbed and definitely got the Woodsman into the graveyard ahead of schedule.  Don't ride it any higher than 7+ if you've got any intention of being mobile afterward and I don't recommend doing that without a very good reason.  MASC can be a useful tool but be prepared for Murphy to bite you.  Otherwise, aggression is your friend here.  The Wolf is a cunning predator, cautious when it should be and bold when it must be.  Emulate it at a Woodsman's controls.

Stopping a Woodsman is... interesting.  I can see why it finally went down once it had more competitors on the field - especially with the Timber Wolf around - but this is not a chump 'Mech.   The armor is solid, so you need hole punchers to bore it down or a lot of middling (5 to 7 point) hits to shear it off.  You need crit-seekers to punch out a Prime's ammo or score the sort of slow accretion of criticals that wears down a zombie beast like the A.  Speed can push it around and, eventually, MASC failure will, sooner or later, catch up with every single one of them at the wrong time but the problem with statistics is that there's no Law of Small Numbers.  There's just not a winning strategy here other than perseverance and general good tactics.

Reference: The MUL's Woodsman Prime page includes a picture and notes on sources.  It also has a link to the A for checking BVs and availability.  As with the Lupus, the Woodsman was extinct by the Jihad.
« Last Edit: 10 June 2011, 10:40:59 by Moonsword »

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Re: Mech of the Week: Woodsman
« Reply #1 on: 11 June 2011, 10:40:07 »
You know. I found it weird that they made the Woodsman so good!  The only real concession I can see is the 4/6[8] speed bracket it has going on, which purely from a strategic point of view be negative against a force consisting of 5/8 but tactically? Holy Smokes this baby would give as good as it gets . Surely whoever designed this must have seen what replaced it and would have figured out to make it more terrible than what we got!



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Re: Mech of the Week: Woodsman
« Reply #2 on: 11 June 2011, 16:08:54 »
Thank you for your article! I love the Woodsman. The art is also wonderful (but I love even more the scuplt that Wackrabbit did). I don't have anything against the chasis. MASC turns it into a interesting unit.

  I remember that this mech caused a lot of discussion some time ago. It is a good mech with speed and firepower. And it is CHEAP. VERY CHEAP to build. If CW/CWiE wanted a cheap omnimech this one is the first option.
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Re: Mech of the Week: Woodsman
« Reply #3 on: 11 June 2011, 21:30:02 »
Nice write up Moonsword.

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Re: Mech of the Week: Woodsman
« Reply #4 on: 12 June 2011, 10:01:03 »
A really solid omnimech, the SFE is a real selling point as it would still give the Kingfisher a run for its money as the toughest of omnimechs.

Nice write up Moonsword.

Why heck is MUL not showing the picture, is just me?

The picture shows up fine for me ???

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Re: Mech of the Week: Woodsman
« Reply #5 on: 12 June 2011, 10:35:48 »
Honestly, I would use a Woodsman over a Timber Wolf.
Simply because: the Woodsman has a standard engine. I wish there was someway to
actually get one in the Jihad era...same with the Coyotl.
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Re: Mech of the Week: Woodsman
« Reply #6 on: 12 June 2011, 12:08:17 »
I agree, like G&D said, the clans could use some low cost/SFE omnimechs to help rebuild after the Jihad - especially since they would be able to get the SFEs from IS suppliers.

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Re: Mech of the Week: Woodsman
« Reply #7 on: 12 June 2011, 12:55:40 »
Honestly, I would use a Woodsman over a Timber Wolf.
Simply because: the Woodsman has a standard engine.
Never ever.
This argument could be valid for ISXL, but not for the clans. A CXLFE gives you a lot of advantages w/o an insta-kill after loosing a side torso.
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Re: Mech of the Week: Woodsman
« Reply #8 on: 12 June 2011, 13:22:28 »
Never ever.
This argument could be valid for ISXL, but not for the clans. A CXLFE gives you a lot of advantages w/o an insta-kill after loosing a side torso.

Not an insta-kill, no, but you're still only one more engine hit away from it (provided you haven't already taken one elsewhere) and building up those pesky extra 10 heat points per turn. Standard engines have their perks.

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Re: Mech of the Week: Woodsman
« Reply #9 on: 12 June 2011, 14:41:51 »
Not an insta-kill, no, but you're still only one more engine hit away from it (provided you haven't already taken one elsewhere) and building up those pesky extra 10 heat points per turn. Standard engines have their perks.
If you try to fight on with such a damaged mech, you will not live long enough.
And before the "clan" argument will arise: If they are so desperate to produce lesser quality omnis (in-universe POV) after the losses of the Jihad, than they will slso change the fighting style.

BTW, as a CXLFE equipped mech is faster and/or better armed and armored than a SFE equipped one, the SFE machine will be in trouble more early...
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Re: Mech of the Week: Woodsman
« Reply #10 on: 12 June 2011, 15:16:23 »
If you try to fight on with such a damaged mech, you will not live long enough.
And before the "clan" argument will arise: If they are so desperate to produce lesser quality omnis (in-universe POV) after the losses of the Jihad, than they will slso change the fighting style.

BTW, as a CXLFE equipped mech is faster and/or better armed and armored than a SFE equipped one, the SFE machine will be in trouble more early...

Hasn't really been my experience, truth be told. XL designs can't exceed the same armor point limits that hold for their standard engined relatives, so they tend to end up 'only' faster and/or packing more guns...which tends to turn them into the proverbial stars that burn twice as bright but only half as long. I've seen them fall to standard engined opponents plenty of times -- dealing out potentially terrible punishment first, it's true, but all too often simply not enough of it to compensate for their own increased vulnerability. And this holds as true for the Clan side of things (where even the SFE machines get access to Clan weapons, after all) as it does for the Inner Sphere.

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Re: Mech of the Week: Woodsman
« Reply #11 on: 12 June 2011, 15:37:01 »
Hasn't really been my experience, truth be told. XL designs can't exceed the same armor point limits that hold for their standard engined relatives, [....]
Not every mech is armored to maximum, but with XL you have more tonnage available.
And this holds as true for the Clan side of things (where even the SFE machines get access to Clan weapons, after all) as it does for the Inner Sphere.
IS yes, Clan not my experience.

But thats not the point of the discussion of the Woodsman.
At the end of the day everyone will choose the mechs which suit him/her most, and I personally have no phobia either to field XLFE equipped mechs (Clan and IS alike) nor face SFE equipped-only forces  :)
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Re: Mech of the Week: Woodsman
« Reply #12 on: 12 June 2011, 15:48:07 »
Not every mech is armored to maximum, but with XL you have more tonnage available.

Which means exactly zip if you can't or won't invest more of that tonnage into armor, is all I'm saying. Given equal armor levels, whether maxed out or not, the XL design is apt to go down significantly faster.

Which is, of course, why I have no phobia about using standard-engined 'Mechs against ones with XLFEs. ;)

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Re: Mech of the Week: Woodsman
« Reply #13 on: 12 June 2011, 18:16:58 »

The Woodsman is a solid design that's gained significant favor in my playgroup. Both configurations make for good generalist units on the line. But I don't hesitate playing the Alpha in an urban environment. It's a tough (and dangerous) machine in that role.

Just my two cents worth.
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Re: Mech of the Week: Woodsman
« Reply #14 on: 12 June 2011, 18:30:22 »
Shame its not still around, but I'll undoubtedly nab some for my Clan forces when the mini is out.  Would be a nice ride for a second-line unit since Toads can ride along.  Really like its looks. 

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Re: Mech of the Week: Woodsman
« Reply #15 on: 12 June 2011, 20:46:50 »
Demos...please note the faction in my avatar...
Clan Standard Engines are the best! They maximize the durability of the 'mech and minimize the cost.

And, I have won before with a Blood Kite that was down to just the CT, Head, and legs...can you do that with
your XL engined warhawk?

Speed and more guns is not everything. I am not a big fan of Glass Cannons.
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Re: Mech of the Week: Woodsman
« Reply #16 on: 13 June 2011, 19:22:55 »
Referring to the Warhawk as a glass canon is an insult to Lao Hus everywhere.
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Re: Mech of the Week: Woodsman
« Reply #17 on: 13 June 2011, 19:24:33 »
Not to mention Blood Kites should be renamed to Blood Fireworks Displays.  8)

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Re: Mech of the Week: Woodsman
« Reply #18 on: 13 June 2011, 19:38:51 »
Good mech, wish the entire Klondike/Golden Century series had more IS tech in them instead of the quick progression of clan tech, this one is a nice mech.
Given the old fluff I really expected it to be an 80 ton IS-Tech Omni that evolved into the Naga & Gargoyle when Clan Tech hit mainstream production.


Since I don't use C-Bills in anything but a Merc campaign I see no issue with the SFE in a clan design.
The MASC as suggested in the fluff is the key weak point here.
Anyone trying to keep up w/ a Summoner will likely push it and when your 4/6(8)/0 suddenly becomes 3/5 or 2/3 and Kingfishers are passing you, well, it makes sense to me that it was phased out in favor of newer mechs.

Nice Article.  And I love the Arrow configuration, just enough space for 15 rounds & an ERSL/Flamer.
Perfect for supporting a fast clan like engagement.
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Re: Mech of the Week: Woodsman
« Reply #19 on: 13 June 2011, 19:42:27 »
Not to mention Blood Kites should be renamed to Blood Fireworks Displays.  8)

Then you are not using them right. I have never suffered an ammo explosion in a Blood Kite....
And I run the things like a crazy rifleman pilot.

Referring to the Warhawk as a glass canon is an insult to Lao Hus everywhere.

Anything with an XL engine, clan or inner sphere, is a Glass Cannon...well...except for the Hellbringer..that is more a
Hammer and Eggshell...since glass can take more punishment then a Hellbringer.
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Re: Mech of the Week: Woodsman
« Reply #20 on: 13 June 2011, 20:07:19 »
Anything with an XL engine, clan or inner sphere, is a Glass Cannon...well...except for the Hellbringer..that is more a
Hammer and Eggshell...since glass can take more punishment then a Hellbringer.

So you'd call the Warhawk a glass canon but not the less durable 3025 Crusader?  ???
« Last Edit: 13 June 2011, 21:24:27 by Kit deSummersville »
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Re: Mech of the Week: Woodsman
« Reply #21 on: 13 June 2011, 21:01:24 »
So you'd call the Warhawk a glass canon but not the less durable 3025 Crusader?  ???

3025 Crusader? You mean the "Deathtrap"?
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Re: Mech of the Week: Woodsman
« Reply #22 on: 13 June 2011, 21:05:58 »
Anything with an XL engine, clan or inner sphere, is a Glass Cannon...
I'm inclined to say that many a DireWolf would disagree with you.

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Re: Mech of the Week: Woodsman
« Reply #23 on: 13 June 2011, 21:09:05 »
I'm inclined to say that many a DireWolf would disagree with you.

Please! I've taken Dire Wolves down with Riflemans! They aren't all that!
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Re: Mech of the Week: Woodsman
« Reply #24 on: 13 June 2011, 21:11:56 »
Please! I've taken Dire Wolves down with Riflemans! They aren't all that!
Yes yes, so you've said.
Somehow I don't think that it would happen 9 out of 10 games however.
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Re: Mech of the Week: Woodsman
« Reply #25 on: 13 June 2011, 22:40:29 »
Yes yes, so you've said.
Somehow I don't think that it would happen 9 out of 10 games however.

 It only  has to happen once.
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Re: Mech of the Week: Woodsman
« Reply #26 on: 14 June 2011, 00:11:18 »
Please! I've taken Dire Wolves down with Riflemans! They aren't all that!
You, and which army else?  ;)
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Re: Mech of the Week: Woodsman
« Reply #27 on: 14 June 2011, 03:45:22 »
Good mech, wish the entire Klondike/Golden Century series had more IS tech in them instead of the quick progression of clan tech, this one is a nice mech.
Given the old fluff I really expected it to be an 80 ton IS-Tech Omni that evolved into the Naga & Gargoyle when Clan Tech hit mainstream production.

Agreed.  I too was expecting an 80-tonner with 5/8 movement.  Previously, we never had any reason to suspect the Timber Wolf was anything other than an evolution of the Catapult. 

Visually at least, you can still see the links with the Gargoyle in the hip and leg design, and the Naga with the cockpit and centre torso.
But making the Woodsman the ancestor of the T-Wolf as well seems to me to be a bit contrived.

Even though it's not an standard 'Mech, I think one could also draw a connection between the Woodsman and the Tundra Wolf...?
The 4/6 + MASC movement profile and tonnage are the biggest similarities, though the Tundra Wolf is more reminiscent of the Orion IIC in other ways.

cheers,

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Re: Mech of the Week: Woodsman
« Reply #28 on: 14 June 2011, 04:02:28 »
Anything with an XL engine, clan or inner sphere, is a Glass Cannon...well...except for the Hellbringer..that is more a
Hammer and Eggshell...since glass can take more punishment then a Hellbringer.

I couldn't disagree more. In fact, I have a whole hangar of 2750-era 'Mechs on a MekWars server that just won't die, XL Engine be damned. It gets even worse for Clan units.

If you're having bad luck with them, that is certainly your experience and not mine. :) I'd take an XLE force against a SFE force any day of the week.
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Re: Mech of the Week: Woodsman
« Reply #29 on: 14 June 2011, 08:22:24 »
If we lived close i would take that challenge...straight BV across the board...any era.
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Re: Mech of the Week: Woodsman
« Reply #30 on: 14 June 2011, 09:58:41 »
If we lived close i would take that challenge...straight BV across the board...any era.

Fortunately, MegaMek exists for just that occasion. PM me. :)
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Col.Hengist

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Re: Mech of the Week: Woodsman
« Reply #31 on: 14 June 2011, 10:03:54 »
Fortunately, MegaMek exists for just that occasion. PM me. :)

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gyedid

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Re: Mech of the Week: Woodsman
« Reply #32 on: 14 June 2011, 10:59:35 »
Even though it's not an standard 'Mech, I think one could also draw a connection between the Woodsman and the Tundra Wolf...?
The 4/6 + MASC movement profile and tonnage are the biggest similarities, though the Tundra Wolf is more reminiscent of the Orion IIC in other ways.

I could have added to that the fact that the Crusader Wolves don't appear to be capable of producing any Omnimechs--even venerable ones like the Woodsman--shows just how hard up they are on the technical side of things.  The Wolves-in-Exile at least have their Arctic Wolf II.

cheers,

Gabe
So, now I'm imagining people boxing up Overlords for loading as cargo.  "Nope, totally not a DropShip.  Everyone knows you can't fit a DropShip in a WarShip!  It's...a ten thousand ton box of marshmallows!  Yeah.  For the Heavy Guards big annual smores party."
--Arkansas Warrior, on the possibility of carrying Dropships as cargo in Warship cargo bays.

TERRAN SUPREMACY DEFENSE FORCE.  For when you want to send the SLDF, but couldn't afford the whole kit and kaboodle.

wantec

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Re: Mech of the Week: Woodsman
« Reply #33 on: 14 June 2011, 13:40:25 »
I could have added to that the fact that the Crusader Wolves don't appear to be capable of producing any Omnimechs--even venerable ones like the Woodsman--shows just how hard up they are on the technical side of things.  The Wolves-in-Exile at least have their Arctic Wolf II.

cheers,

Gabe
Sorry, the intro to the Clan section of TRO3085 Supplemental says the Wolves have started production of "previously Homeworlds-built Omnis". And TRO 3050U has an in-universe date of after the Scouring of Tamar and it lists Tamar as one of the main production sites for the Gargoyle.

The Wolves in Exile have a lot of Omni production (as long as it wasn't destroyed during the Jihad):
Adder
Ice Ferret
Timber Wolf
Arctic Wolf/Arctic Wolf II
Phantom
Linebacker

Possible Omnis (main production site listed as "various")
Stormcrow
Mad Dog
Hellbringer
Dire Wolf* (Wolf's Dragoons had production specs and fled Outreach to Arc Royal with the WiE so it's possible they shared the design)
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gyedid

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Re: Mech of the Week: Woodsman
« Reply #34 on: 15 June 2011, 17:24:08 »
Sorry, the intro to the Clan section of TRO3085 Supplemental says the Wolves have started production of "previously Homeworlds-built Omnis". And TRO 3050U has an in-universe date of after the Scouring of Tamar and it lists Tamar as one of the main production sites for the Gargoyle.

So I see now.  Well, that's just no fun, it would've been cool to see the Crusader Wolves hold their ground with just their standard 'Mech forces.  Tactically, however, they didn't really have anything to fill the heavy cav role, which I guess they will now that they're able to produce Omnis--if *I* were Vlad, the #1 priority would be getting Timber Wolf production up and running.


Quote
The Wolves in Exile have a lot of Omni production (as long as it wasn't destroyed during the Jihad):
Adder
Ice Ferret
Timber Wolf
Arctic Wolf/Arctic Wolf II
Phantom
Linebacker

Possible Omnis (main production site listed as "various")
Stormcrow
Mad Dog
Hellbringer
Dire Wolf* (Wolf's Dragoons had production specs and fled Outreach to Arc Royal with the WiE so it's possible they shared the design)

All of which (with the exception of the T-Wolf) fits with their known preference for lighter, faster designs.

cheers,

Gabe
So, now I'm imagining people boxing up Overlords for loading as cargo.  "Nope, totally not a DropShip.  Everyone knows you can't fit a DropShip in a WarShip!  It's...a ten thousand ton box of marshmallows!  Yeah.  For the Heavy Guards big annual smores party."
--Arkansas Warrior, on the possibility of carrying Dropships as cargo in Warship cargo bays.

TERRAN SUPREMACY DEFENSE FORCE.  For when you want to send the SLDF, but couldn't afford the whole kit and kaboodle.

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Re: Mech of the Week: Woodsman
« Reply #35 on: 15 June 2011, 19:54:46 »
Sorry, the intro to the Clan section of TRO3085 Supplemental says the Wolves have started production of "previously Homeworlds-built Omnis". And TRO 3050U has an in-universe date of after the Scouring of Tamar and it lists Tamar as one of the main production sites for the Gargoyle.

Possible Omnis (main production site listed as "various")
Stormcrow
Mad Dog
Hellbringer
If they also have any of the "Various" units as well then things might not be so bad off really.

Solid Heavy 5/8+ star composition.  (Might not have a T-Wolf or Summoner but it will get the job done.)



[/quote]The Wolves in Exile have a lot of Omni production (as long as it wasn't destroyed during the Jihad):

Dire Wolf* (Wolf's Dragoons had production specs and fled Outreach to Arc Royal with the WiE so it's possible they shared the design)
[/quote]
They probably had the specs even w/o the Goons.
But limits on # of factories was probably a concern.

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wantec

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Re: Mech of the Week: Woodsman
« Reply #36 on: 16 June 2011, 07:13:17 »
So I see now.  Well, that's just no fun, it would've been cool to see the Crusader Wolves hold their ground with just their standard 'Mech forces.  Tactically, however, they didn't really have anything to fill the heavy cav role, which I guess they will now that they're able to produce Omnis--if *I* were Vlad, the #1 priority would be getting Timber Wolf production up and running.
For the most part they are holding their ground with their standard mech forces and what omnis they have remaining and what they salvage. Remember the TRO 3085 Supplemental has an in-universe date of Dec 1, 3086, and that says the Wolves are "starting production" of HW-made omnis so it'll be a few years till they have enough to refil their front-line forces. The only one we know they're making in any numbers at this point is the Gargoyle.

All of which (with the exception of the T-Wolf) fits with their known preference for lighter, faster designs.

cheers,

Gabe
While the Adder is lighter, but it's not fast for it's tonnage, so I wouldn't really put it in the "lighter, faster" category, it's more of a fire-support light. Now if they were using it in a place where most other clans would use a medium then that can qualify as a "lighter, faster" choice. Same for the Arctic Wolf II, same speed as a Grendel, just 5 tons lighter but still in the same weight class, same tonnage as a Viper, just a little slower but still in the same to-hit modifier brackets.


They probably had the specs even w/o the Goons.
But limits on # of factories was probably a concern.
You're probably right, I just listed it separately since I didn't remember ever seeing a mention of the Exiles building Dire Wolves.
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Re: Mech of the Week: Woodsman
« Reply #37 on: 17 June 2011, 09:53:12 »
There are some Clans that seem to like 'Mechs with standard engines, particularly the Blood Spirits--their own homegrown Omni, the Stooping Hawk, has one.  The Steel Vipers favour (or at least have favoured) their Battle Cobra and Crossbow in their front-line forces.
The Kingfisher still has a place in the toumans of a number of Clans.  Why wouldn't these Clans continue to make use of the Woodsman?
Keeping in mind the pros/cons of the Woodsman's standard engine, it seems like it could still be a capable heavy 'Mech for Clans that prize low cost and durability.

cheers,

Gabe
So, now I'm imagining people boxing up Overlords for loading as cargo.  "Nope, totally not a DropShip.  Everyone knows you can't fit a DropShip in a WarShip!  It's...a ten thousand ton box of marshmallows!  Yeah.  For the Heavy Guards big annual smores party."
--Arkansas Warrior, on the possibility of carrying Dropships as cargo in Warship cargo bays.

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Re: Mech of the Week: Woodsman
« Reply #38 on: 17 June 2011, 11:18:36 »
Sure there are.  They wouldn't do it because they evidently don't have production rights for the Woodsman for whatever reason.

wantec

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Re: Mech of the Week: Woodsman
« Reply #39 on: 17 June 2011, 12:37:22 »
There are some Clans that seem to like 'Mechs with standard engines, particularly the Blood Spirits--their own homegrown Omni, the Stooping Hawk, has one.  The Steel Vipers favour (or at least have favoured) their Battle Cobra and Crossbow in their front-line forces.
The Kingfisher still has a place in the toumans of a number of Clans.  Why wouldn't these Clans continue to make use of the Woodsman?
Keeping in mind the pros/cons of the Woodsman's standard engine, it seems like it could still be a capable heavy 'Mech for Clans that prize low cost and durability.

cheers,

Gabe
It would definitely still be a useful mech, but there's a lot of fluff reasons for it to not be resurrected. If you look at the intro dates, the Battle Cobra, Crossbow, and Kingfisher were all contemporaries of the Woodsman, coming into service with 15-20 years of the Woodsman beginning production. So you can see that the Vipers (and whoever designed the Kingfisher) designed those other omnis along the same lines as the Woodsman. And while it had more firepower than the Battle Cobra and the Crossbow, the Woodsman was slower than both and a main contributing factor of the Woodsman's end was it's lack of speed versus omnis of similar tonnages. Ignoring the Vipers odd design preferences for their omnis, why would the Vipers want a mech that was slower than theirs when that mech was going out of service cause it was too slow?

The Kingfisher was 15 tons heavier than the Woodsman, but it moved at the same speed and it carries 62 more points of armor, maxing out its armor. The Kingfisher may have 3.5 tons less of podspace, but it has 5 more DHS fixed to the base chassis (17 DHS total). The only two places the Woodsman has an advantage is in crit space (10 more crits b/c it doesn't use FF armor) and the use of MASC, but again, the MASC failure rates were sighted as one of the Woodsman's fatal features.


Now the Blood Spirits are a different situation. Their first omni (that we know of) is the Stooping Hawk, which was made prior to 2975, but after the Mad Dog (which itself was made sometime after the Timber Wolf which was made in 2945). Prior to the Stooping Hawk, the Blood Spirits were so short on resources that they purposely did not design their own omnis, all the extra pods and omni connectors were considered too big a waste of the Spirits limited resources for minimal gain. Despite how well the Stooping Hawk performs, it's TRO entry says that it's pretty rare among the Spirits and the Khans still regularly review performance reports to make sure it's still a good use of resources. Even the Crimson Languar, the Spirits other homemade omni was designed with the help of the Fire Mandrills.

It's interesting to note, the Battle Cobra, Stooping Hawk, Crossbow, Lupus, Woodsman, and Kingfisher are the only Clan omnis with an SFE and all of them (except the Stooping Hawk) were part of that first batch of Clan omnis.
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Re: Mech of the Week: Woodsman
« Reply #40 on: 19 June 2011, 17:40:10 »
IIRC the fluff from Golden Century said that early on they had issues getting the pods to work on XL + Endo mechs.

I think the earliest existing design that we see w/ that combo is the Kit Fox which is still later that the onther ones you listed.

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Diablo48

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Re: Mech of the Week: Woodsman
« Reply #41 on: 19 June 2011, 21:31:11 »
It is a nice machine, although I would have liked it better if it had traded the MASC for maxed FF armor.  MASC is a useful piece of equipment when used properly, but a 4/6 Clan heavy is just not going to be able to really use it well when you have similar 5/8 XLE machines available which can do the same job better (incidentally, I do wish one of the 3050 heavies had used MASC or a bigger engine to differentiate them more, but that is irrelevant here).

The slower SFE design is not necessarily a flaw because the lower speed will be offset by small increases in durability and available firepower (32 tons with 2 engine DHS for my swap).  The SFE does give some protection from side torso loss and crits, but you will generally loose enough of your firepower when they go that this is not terribly helpful.  Even the 10 extra heat does not matter all that much because you usually loose enough weapons in the process to render the problem moot.


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StCptMara

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Re: Mech of the Week: Woodsman
« Reply #42 on: 19 June 2011, 22:09:00 »
It is a nice machine, although I would have liked it better if it had traded the MASC for maxed FF armor.  MASC is a useful piece of equipment when used properly, but a 4/6 Clan heavy is just not going to be able to really use it well when you have similar 5/8 XLE machines available which can do the same job better (incidentally, I do wish one of the 3050 heavies had used MASC or a bigger engine to differentiate them more, but that is irrelevant here).

(bolded for emphasis) The reason it was discontinued was because those 5/8 XLE 'Mechs came out...before them, it was facing slower
heavies, most likely, considering that it predates the Summoner, Mad Dog, Timber Wolf, and even Hellbringer.
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Re: Mech of the Week: Woodsman
« Reply #43 on: 20 June 2011, 05:59:25 »

All of which (with the exception of the T-Wolf) fits with their known preference for lighter, faster designs.

cheers,

Gabe
Even the Dire Wolf? ???
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Re: Mech of the Week: Woodsman
« Reply #44 on: 20 June 2011, 07:43:30 »
Even the Dire Wolf? ???
Yes, the Dire Wolf is really just a lighter, faster, mobile orbital gun  ;)
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Diablo48

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Re: Mech of the Week: Woodsman
« Reply #45 on: 20 June 2011, 21:29:46 »
(bolded for emphasis) The reason it was discontinued was because those 5/8 XLE 'Mechs came out...before them, it was facing slower
heavies, most likely, considering that it predates the Summoner, Mad Dog, Timber Wolf, and even Hellbringer.

That was kind of my point.  The inclusion of MASC is my biggest complaint because you would be better off if you traded it in for another 3 tons of pod space.  The FF armor is a little bit of a secondary concern, but if you make both changes I think it improves the design to the point that it can reasonably contend with the later generation of faster omnis if it leverages its small advantages in firepower and durability to compensate for the reduced mobility.


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Ian Sharpe

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Re: Mech of the Week: Woodsman
« Reply #46 on: 20 June 2011, 21:35:05 »
Actually, I like the MASC.  5/8+ XL heavies were certainly known to the Star League and Clans, with the Flashman, Exterminator, Champion, Lancelot...it allowed a cutting edge mech that didn't have an XL for design reasons to match them or come close for short periods of time.  Its no Night Gyr or Nova Cat but it would certainly match up against the Mad Dogs, Hellbringers and Summoners.  Its the 5/8 XLs with similar or better armour and payload that give it trouble, the Ebon Jags and Timber Wolves.

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Re: Mech of the Week: Woodsman
« Reply #47 on: 20 June 2011, 22:39:03 »
Actually, I like the MASC.  5/8+ XL heavies were certainly known to the Star League and Clans, with the Flashman, Exterminator, Champion, Lancelot...it allowed a cutting edge mech that didn't have an XL for design reasons to match them or come close for short periods of time.  Its no Night Gyr or Nova Cat but it would certainly match up against the Mad Dogs, Hellbringers and Summoners.  Its the 5/8 XLs with similar or better armour and payload that give it trouble, the Ebon Jags and Timber Wolves.

The problem I have is not with MASC in general, but with its implementation here.  The advantage of MASC is that it gives you a way to get a little more speed than you normally could, but it costs a substantial amount of tonnage and risks crippling your 'Mech if it breaks.  Thus using it on a slower SFE design like this is a bad idea because you could switch to a larger XLE and get the same top speed, but it will be stable and eliminate the risks of MASC failure.  Now, if a design like the Hellbringer had used MASC (assuming the other issues were at least mostly fixed) I would be able to get behind it because it gives it a clear leg up on its contemporaries and frees it from the perpetual stigma of being just like a Timber Wolf, but worse.  The reason for this is that you simply cannot get a heavy up to 10 mp without MASC, so it becomes worth the risk to gain a unique advantage that can be exploited if you are clever.


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Ian Sharpe

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Re: Mech of the Week: Woodsman
« Reply #48 on: 20 June 2011, 23:02:32 »
If like another poster mentioned, if they were having trouble with XLs/endo and OmniPods, it makes sense.  They were used to fast mechs, and MASC was the only way to get it faster at the time.  Its got the same pod tonnage as the Timby, despite fewer sinks, so I have no real issues there. 

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Re: Mech of the Week: Woodsman
« Reply #49 on: 26 November 2017, 16:00:40 »
It would definitely still be a useful mech, but there's a lot of fluff reasons for it to not be resurrected. If you look at the intro dates, the Battle Cobra, Crossbow, and Kingfisher were all contemporaries of the Woodsman, coming into service with 15-20 years of the Woodsman beginning production. So you can see that the Vipers (and whoever designed the Kingfisher) designed those other omnis along the same lines as the Woodsman. And while it had more firepower than the Battle Cobra and the Crossbow, the Woodsman was slower than both and a main contributing factor of the Woodsman's end was it's lack of speed versus omnis of similar tonnages. Ignoring the Vipers odd design preferences for their omnis, why would the Vipers want a mech that was slower than theirs when that mech was going out of service cause it was too slow?

The Kingfisher was 15 tons heavier than the Woodsman, but it moved at the same speed and it carries 62 more points of armor, maxing out its armor. The Kingfisher may have 3.5 tons less of podspace, but it has 5 more DHS fixed to the base chassis (17 DHS total). The only two places the Woodsman has an advantage is in crit space


Now the Blood Spirits are a different situation. Their first omni (that we know of) is the Stooping Hawk, which was made prior to 2975, but after the Mad Dog (which itself was made sometime after the Timber Wolf which was made in 2945). Prior to the Stooping Hawk, the Blood Spirits were so short on resources that they purposely did not design their own omnis, all the extra pods and omni connectors were considered too big a waste of the Spirits limited resources for minimal gain. Despite how well the Stooping Hawk performs, it's TRO entry says that it's pretty rare among the Spirits and the Khans still regularly review performance reports to make sure it's still a good use of resources. Even the Crimson Languar, the Spirits other homemade omni was designed with the help of the Fire Mandrills.

It's interesting to note, the Battle Cobra, Stooping Hawk, Crossbow, Lupus, Woodsman, and Kingfisher are the only Clan omnis with an SFE and all of them (except the Stooping Hawk) were part of that first batch of Clan omnis.

This is what confuses me about the game from a business perspective why create a great unit then write it up in a way that severely limits its desriblitlty to potential buyers of minis?

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Re: Mech of the Week: Woodsman
« Reply #50 on: 26 November 2017, 16:22:21 »
This is what confuses me about the game from a business perspective why create a great unit then write it up in a way that severely limits its desriblitlty to potential buyers of minis?
The canon fit for it was because all the "original" clan OmniMechs that were introduced came from a great predecessor.  Also player can play in Golden Century in Clan Space with the Woodsman.  Nothing stopping anyone from play with it. 

Who knows, it maybe back.  :D
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Re: Mech of the Week: Woodsman
« Reply #51 on: 26 November 2017, 16:30:11 »
Who knows, it maybe back.  :D
the earlier Omni's would make a great product for the SeaFox's to be selling to the IS.

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Re: Mech of the Week: Woodsman
« Reply #52 on: 26 November 2017, 16:37:43 »
Wow, yet another canon mech, named exactly the same as one of my home made ones..  GRRR
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Re: Mech of the Week: Woodsman
« Reply #53 on: 26 November 2017, 18:32:36 »
This is what confuses me about the game from a business perspective why create a great unit then write it up in a way that severely limits its desriblitlty to potential buyers of minis?

The Woodsman already existed in name way back in the FASA days but didn't get stats until more recently when CGL explored the early years of the Clans. The only reason why there even is a mini is because fans loved the machine, much like the Primitives that are also considered obsolete after the Age of War but still used by players.   
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Re: Mech of the Week: Woodsman
« Reply #54 on: 26 November 2017, 18:45:56 »
The Woodsman already existed in name way back in the FASA days but didn't get stats until more recently when CGL explored the early years of the Clans. The only reason why there even is a mini is because fans loved the machine, much like the Primitives that are also considered obsolete after the Age of War but still used by players.

Ah well that shut me up! Thanks!

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Re: Mech of the Week: Woodsman
« Reply #55 on: 26 November 2017, 21:38:11 »
has any one done a ssw on all the configs to the Woodsman
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Re: Mech of the Week: Woodsman
« Reply #56 on: 28 November 2017, 10:10:24 »
This is what confuses me about the game from a business perspective why create a great unit then write it up in a way that severely limits its desriblitlty to potential buyers of minis?

Also, CGL isn't a mini company.
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Re: Mech of the Week: Woodsman
« Reply #57 on: 29 November 2017, 01:46:01 »
has any one done a ssw on all the configs to the Woodsman
Fairly certain both configurations have been put into the PDF files available on their site.  I know I've never keyed it in before and it is listed under the folder for Omnis.

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Re: Mech of the Week: Woodsman
« Reply #58 on: 29 November 2017, 06:29:53 »
Silly comment.  Woodsman is tied to Timberwolf and others.  Sort the nod to the old Red Riding Hood.  I wonder if there was mech named for that character somewhere in Clan history,  ;D
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Re: Mech of the Week: Woodsman
« Reply #59 on: 29 November 2017, 09:36:36 »
Silly comment.  Woodsman is tied to Timberwolf and others.  Sort the nod to the old Red Riding Hood.  I wonder if there was mech named for that character somewhere in Clan history,  ;D

Heh, a blood spirit scout mech?
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Re: Mech of the Week: Woodsman
« Reply #60 on: 02 December 2017, 15:20:00 »
One thing that a Woodsman config could do in Dark Ages that gets interesting . . . the machine could have a SuperCharger to go with the MASC, a sort of copy of the later Executioner configs.  Either to keep the range open or rush in for short range murder where the SFE helps it a lot.
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Re: Mech of the Week: Woodsman
« Reply #61 on: 02 December 2017, 17:09:26 »
I am torn between having a woodsman in my spirit blood guard or my horses Delta glaxy

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Re: Mech of the Week: Woodsman
« Reply #62 on: 02 December 2017, 19:27:00 »
I'd would think that if the Spirits would be still using it if they had them.  It meets their needs essentially.  Regular fusion engine.  They went with the standard models because their cost/effectiveness.  Which Omni related maintenance is suppose to be more resource needy than standards. Which i think it's trade off for pod space, reworking pods to be efficient i'd think they would have kept them around.
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Sjhernan3060

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Re: Mech of the Week: Woodsman
« Reply #63 on: 02 December 2017, 19:34:05 »
As is my blood guard has a great deal of pre Omni designs like the imp or upgraded SL designs so some Omni designs are needed

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Re: Mech of the Week: Woodsman
« Reply #64 on: 03 December 2017, 06:58:16 »

I can imagine that the Escorpión Imperio might put it back in production.
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Re: Mech of the Week: Woodsman
« Reply #65 on: 03 December 2017, 14:01:03 »
Why not both?   Just picked up another one and might customize it as a missile boat since it only has 2 canon configs

I am torn between having a woodsman in my spirit blood guard or my horses Delta glaxy

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Re: Mech of the Week: Woodsman
« Reply #66 on: 03 December 2017, 14:47:26 »
Why specifically a missile boat?Not to be rude, but I feel as though customizing a build into a missile boat is a small waste of potential. There's no big ballistic+lasers build.

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Re: Mech of the Week: Woodsman
« Reply #67 on: 03 December 2017, 14:52:25 »
Why specifically a missile boat?Not to be rude, but I feel as though customizing a build into a missile boat is a small waste of potential. There's no big ballistic+lasers build.

Agreed.

Actually, no, it does need a Missile Boat, but specifically the Arrow variant that inspired the Naga.

Then maybe something with Gauss,  LB10X, or Ultra-20 to inspire other T-Wolf & Gargoyle configurations.
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Re: Mech of the Week: Woodsman
« Reply #68 on: 03 December 2017, 15:06:12 »
Agreed.

Actually, no, it does need a Missile Boat, but specifically the Arrow variant that inspired the Naga.

Then maybe something with Gauss,  LB10X, or Ultra-20 to inspire other T-Wolf & Gargoyle configurations.

C'mon Gargoyle B inspired Woodsman.
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Re: Mech of the Week: Woodsman
« Reply #69 on: 03 December 2017, 15:15:58 »
C'mon Gargoyle B inspired Woodsman.

LOL,  I was thinking more along the lines of Gargoyle-C or Timberwolf-B which are at least ok, v/s the Garg-B which is just, uhm, NO.



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« Last Edit: 03 December 2017, 15:17:55 by Hellraiser »
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Re: Mech of the Week: Woodsman
« Reply #70 on: 03 December 2017, 15:57:59 »

Boils down to what I have in my bits box currently.  And i have alot of missile pods at the moment.

Why specifically a missile boat?Not to be rude, but I feel as though customizing a build into a missile boat is a small waste of potential. There's no big ballistic+lasers build.

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Re: Mech of the Week: Woodsman
« Reply #71 on: 03 December 2017, 17:39:13 »
Actually, no, it does need a Missile Boat, but specifically the Arrow variant that inspired the Naga.

The Arrow variant could mount two Arrows, but only 3 tons of ammo. As far as canon Artillery Mechs go, that may be serviceable, but I'd hope any Arrow config that ever gets canonized only mounts one with backup LRMs or laser batteries.

Note; Come to think of it, I have the same thought process regarding a big Ballistic build. Funny.

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Re: Mech of the Week: Woodsman
« Reply #72 on: 03 December 2017, 18:38:17 »
I could see 2 tons of ammo and 2 ER smalls, would mirror the Naga's build, since arty mechs wouldn't be frontline anyways, and it's a testbed.
The Arrow variant could mount two Arrows, but only 3 tons of ammo. As far as canon Artillery Mechs go, that may be serviceable, but I'd hope any Arrow config that ever gets canonized only mounts one with backup LRMs or laser batteries.

Note; Come to think of it, I have the same thought process regarding a big Ballistic build. Funny.

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Re: Mech of the Week: Woodsman
« Reply #73 on: 03 December 2017, 19:42:40 »
The Arrow variant could mount two Arrows, but only 3 tons of ammo. As far as canon Artillery Mechs go, that may be serviceable, but I'd hope any Arrow config that ever gets canonized only mounts one with backup LRMs or laser batteries.

I could see 2 tons of ammo and 2 ER smalls, would mirror the Naga's build, since arty mechs wouldn't be frontline anyways, and it's a testbed.


Well it was to test the Dual Arrow Configuration so I'm assuming it will have 2.

And really, 3 tons isn't much, but if your a few clicks behind the lines then you have time to Reload & don't need back up lasers.

Those were frowned upon on the Naga as it is since they didn't want the pilots thinking they should get into close quarters battle.
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Re: Mech of the Week: Woodsman
« Reply #74 on: 22 October 2020, 19:53:09 »
I'd would think that if the Spirits would be still using it if they had them.  It meets their needs essentially.  Regular fusion engine.  They went with the standard models because their cost/effectiveness.  Which Omni related maintenance is suppose to be more resource needy than standards. Which i think it's trade off for pod space, reworking pods to be efficient i'd think they would have kept them around.

After reading TRO golden century I was very pleased to see that the Ravens got a lot of woodsman and they used them in their 2nd line forces. And since they later traded off a lot of 2nd line gear to the Blood SPirits for warships I am going to use that to justify having woodsman in my blood spirit forces 

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Re: Mech of the Week: Woodsman
« Reply #75 on: 03 November 2020, 03:14:44 »
It's interesting that both of the modern variants mount Watchdog systems.
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Re: Mech of the Week: Woodsman
« Reply #76 on: 03 November 2020, 07:40:05 »
It's interesting that both of the modern variants mount Watchdog systems.

Have to throw a shiny new toy on it somewhere.  ;)
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Re: Mech of the Week: Woodsman
« Reply #77 on: 03 November 2020, 15:18:30 »
So since this is clan, i feel safe with my home made inner sphere mech known as the woodsman.
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Re: Mech of the Week: Woodsman
« Reply #78 on: 07 November 2020, 12:12:56 »
Thank you for your article! I love the Woodsman. The art is also wonderful (but I love even more the scuplt that Wackrabbit did). I don't have anything against the chasis. MASC turns it into a interesting unit.

  I remember that this mech caused a lot of discussion some time ago. It is a good mech with speed and firepower. And it is CHEAP. VERY CHEAP to build. If CW/CWiE wanted a cheap omnimech this one is the first option.

And thanks to TRO golden century it’s much more avaible in canon now! Can any one point me to images of wackrabbits sculpt?

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Re: Mech of the Week: Woodsman
« Reply #79 on: 09 November 2020, 11:20:00 »
And thanks to TRO golden century it’s much more avaible in canon now! Can any one point me to images of wackrabbits sculpt?

It's probably on Camospecs somewhere. EDIT: Yup. Here's wackrabbit's sculpt of the Woodsman.
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Re: Mech of the Week: Woodsman
« Reply #80 on: 09 November 2020, 11:33:23 »
I hope a one-off configuration with a Ax so it can be said Woodsman was using Ax on the Wolves.  :D
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