Author Topic: Short and long term chronic medical issues among Warriors  (Read 13580 times)

grimlock1

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Re: Short and long term chronic medical issues among Warriors
« Reply #60 on: 26 March 2019, 16:03:50 »
It occurs to me that proto mech pilots should be in good overall health, compared to other Clan warriors.  They fight from the protective cocoon of a protomech cockpit.  That means no back/hip/neck issues from sitting in a command couch with a quarter ton neurohelmet. They aren't subjected to the prolonged heat of mech pilots. Unlike other aero pilots, they spend more time in real gravity. They spend a LOT of time in the gym, although no aeropilot should ever skip leg day because that's how you keep from passing out in a high G turn.

These factors should contribute to them having few widespread chronic medical issues.  Aside from the wetware in their head slowly eroding their sanity at the same time it eats their neuromotor system, while they become addicted to using that very wetware and to the drugs that slow the aforementioned degeneration.  Yeah, so that stuff notwithstanding, they should be in good health.
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MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: Short and long term chronic medical issues among Warriors
« Reply #61 on: 26 March 2019, 17:53:49 »
Yeah, they should be in excellent shape for the what, three years they can handle in the cockpit?
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Sjhernan3060

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Re: Short and long term chronic medical issues among Warriors
« Reply #62 on: 26 March 2019, 19:32:13 »
As I understand it the 2 and 3 rd gen Proto pilots had longer lifespans

grimlock1

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Re: Short and long term chronic medical issues among Warriors
« Reply #63 on: 27 March 2019, 10:25:37 »
Yeah, they should be in excellent shape for the what, three years they can handle in the cockpit?
IO pg 75 and ATOW pg 317 have the rules.  IO says that few survive more than 10 years after the implant, probably counting the 1 year recovery/rehab/retraining spelled out in AToW. 10 years is a good run for a Clanner.   I don't know the RPG system so I don't fully understand the magnitude of the penalties.

Even your recollection of three years seems high to me. I know Max Tech says something about how a person lasts after EI implants, but I don't have that handy. One of the things that caught my attention about VDNI was the extended lifespan.  I want to say that was 10 years and bVDNI was 15.  IO doesn't mention the reduced lifespan in the rules entry for VDNI or bVDNI, and I don't own Jihad Hotspots 3072 so I can't verify.

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Apollo's Law- if it needs Clan tech to make it useable, It doesn't deserve those resources in the first place.
Sure it isn't the most practical 'mech ever designed, but it's a hundred ton axe-murderer. If loving that is wrong I don't wanna be right.

Colt Ward

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Re: Short and long term chronic medical issues among Warriors
« Reply #64 on: 27 March 2019, 11:19:35 »
Well Proto EI is different than BM/ASF EI . . . but yeah, you can say the ProtoWarriors have the issues with their EI- they also have mental issues related to their equipment though the Clan scientists have come up with a method to deal with some of it.  So megalomania is a starter for Proto pilots, withdrawal/depressions when out of the Proto cockpit, and I think paranoia when out of the Proto are typically the problems.  They solve this by stressing inter-unit bonds out of the cockpit, basically using their attachment to each other and need for a physical connection to keep them from becoming hermits in their machines.  I would even say you could make a case for Proto pilots feeling 'phantom pain' when out of the proto after it loses a limb.

So . . . with all the power, and especially when facing civies or regular infantry, why do Elementals not get a touch of megalomania when in their suits?
Colt Ward
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MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: Short and long term chronic medical issues among Warriors
« Reply #65 on: 27 March 2019, 11:23:53 »
Who said they don't?
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Colt Ward

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Re: Short and long term chronic medical issues among Warriors
« Reply #66 on: 27 March 2019, 11:27:02 »
Nobody afaik, but its not spelled out the same way as it is with the Protos.  I think you could easily say it was one of the sufferings of Malavai Fletcher.
Colt Ward
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Caedis Animus

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Re: Short and long term chronic medical issues among Warriors
« Reply #67 on: 27 March 2019, 11:37:57 »
I don't think it's even close to the same, considering power armor isn't 100% a tied neural interface if I recall correctly. If they get anything similar, it's problably a similar brand of bloody-minded rush I get when I play Battlefield 1 and go on a shovel-related killing spree.

grimlock1

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Re: Short and long term chronic medical issues among Warriors
« Reply #68 on: 27 March 2019, 12:35:12 »
They solve this by stressing inter-unit bonds out of the cockpit, basically using their attachment to each other and need for a physical connection to keep them from becoming hermits in their machines. 

I wonder if that intra-point bonding makes protomech points more brittle?  If the "heart" of the team dies, how well will the other four members react to some pimply faced replacement?  How will that frosty reception affect that replacement if proto pilots are more dependent on personal connection that the average Clanner?
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Colt Ward

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Re: Short and long term chronic medical issues among Warriors
« Reply #69 on: 27 March 2019, 13:37:04 »
From the way the little depiction we get, I think they bond more at the star (25 PWs) level rather than the point- if not the trinary (75 PWs!).  It would negate some of the 'cult of personality' damage when you lose that big personality.  I also wonder if it would be better, if done at the trinary level, to make mixed trinaries or supernova binaries since mechwarriors and vehicle crew have a higher chance of surviving crippling damage to their ride.  Not sure how well that works as going back to that depiction it seems PWs are rather clique-ish.
Colt Ward
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"We come in peace, please ignore the bloodstains."

"Greetings, Mechwarrior. You have been recruited by the Star League to defend the Frontier against Daoshen and the Capellan armada."

grimlock1

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Re: Short and long term chronic medical issues among Warriors
« Reply #70 on: 27 March 2019, 14:19:13 »
From the way the little depiction we get, I think they bond more at the star (25 PWs) level rather than the point- if not the trinary (75 PWs!).  It would negate some of the 'cult of personality' damage when you lose that big personality.  I also wonder if it would be better, if done at the trinary level, to make mixed trinaries or supernova binaries since mechwarriors and vehicle crew have a higher chance of surviving crippling damage to their ride.  Not sure how well that works as going back to that depiction it seems PWs are rather clique-ish.
The impression I got from TRO 3060 was point level, but I see a fair bit of bonding at the star level. But I can't really see much bonding past that.

When I said the "heart" of the point, I meant the funny one who could make everyone laugh, even you want to tear at your own skin because you haven't driven a proto for 5 days, or the one who can cheer you on for 3 more pull-ups, or the one with the stash of spices that make even combat rations tasty.  I wasn't talking about a leader.
I'm rarely right... Except when I am.  ---  Idle question.  What is the BV2 of dread?
Apollo's Law- if it needs Clan tech to make it useable, It doesn't deserve those resources in the first place.
Sure it isn't the most practical 'mech ever designed, but it's a hundred ton axe-murderer. If loving that is wrong I don't wanna be right.

Colt Ward

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Re: Short and long term chronic medical issues among Warriors
« Reply #71 on: 27 March 2019, 14:31:36 »
The impression I got from TRO 3060 was point level, but I see a fair bit of bonding at the star level. But I can't really see much bonding past that.

When I said the "heart" of the point, I meant the funny one who could make everyone laugh, even you want to tear at your own skin because you haven't driven a proto for 5 days, or the one who can cheer you on for 3 more pull-ups, or the one with the stash of spices that make even combat rations tasty.  I wasn't talking about a leader.

I was thinking of the BS story about Protos on York where . . . Cullen?  a MW was the POV character seeking to understand the new warriors placed under his command.
Colt Ward
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"We come in peace, please ignore the bloodstains."

"Greetings, Mechwarrior. You have been recruited by the Star League to defend the Frontier against Daoshen and the Capellan armada."

grimlock1

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Re: Short and long term chronic medical issues among Warriors
« Reply #72 on: 27 March 2019, 15:40:57 »
I was thinking of the BS story about Protos on York where . . . Cullen?  a MW was the POV character seeking to understand the new warriors placed under his command.
That sounds more credible than a sentence or two in a TRO. :bow:
I'm rarely right... Except when I am.  ---  Idle question.  What is the BV2 of dread?
Apollo's Law- if it needs Clan tech to make it useable, It doesn't deserve those resources in the first place.
Sure it isn't the most practical 'mech ever designed, but it's a hundred ton axe-murderer. If loving that is wrong I don't wanna be right.

Apocal

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Re: Short and long term chronic medical issues among Warriors
« Reply #73 on: 19 April 2019, 00:42:52 »
I have to imagine various addictions are rampant among the Clans.  They are a society of traumatized child soldiers, with little or no emotional support or outlet.

The initial Trial of Position seems to vary a bit in age, but none of them are less than around seventeen or eighteen, that I've read. If you're talking about training, IS mechwarriors beginning their training from an equally young age, ten or so, was established pretty early with Decision at Thunder Rift.

grimlock1

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Re: Short and long term chronic medical issues among Warriors
« Reply #74 on: 19 April 2019, 09:52:36 »
The initial Trial of Position seems to vary a bit in age, but none of them are less than around seventeen or eighteen, that I've read. If you're talking about training, IS mechwarriors beginning their training from an equally young age, ten or so, was established pretty early with Decision at Thunder Rift.
Grayson, right?  He, like Phalen grew up in situation where the mercenary unit was an extended family.  But it was a family.  There was emotional support. The majority of soldiers in the IS grew up in family homes. In many cases it was expected that they go into the family business, but that's different from Clan sibkos.  There is threat/pressure against deviation. Your father may never forgive you for going law school rather than the Nagelring.  Most soldiers in IS militaries also grew up with other children. On "Bring your parent to school day," they got to see that Sarah's mom is a doctor, and Billy's dad is a dance teacher, and Lee's mom is a firefighter. They spent time in their friend's homes and saw that there are alternatives to the Nagelring and LCAF.   People who wash out of the academy will have a difficult transition if military service was a life long aspiration, but they can look around an see people having lives and being happy.

Clan warriors are told from the moment they can comprehend speech that there is only one acceptable path.  Think about the story of the college dean addressing the freshman class.  "Look to your left, look to your right.  One of those people won't be here in 4 years."  Imagine getting that speech at 4 years old. In that world, failing out and going to another caste is as bad as dying, probably worse. When IS kids are afraid of bombing a history test and getting grounded, Clan children are afraid failing a trial, and washing out. To have their codex stricken.  To never have a chance at a line in the Remembrance.

Most sibko washouts will probably find a life form themselves in the other castes, and many will probably be happy.  But while they are still in the sibkos, they live in constant fear. Once they test out, most warriors know they are destined for solhama units.

Going back to the the IS example, members of house or local militaries know that they can serve their time, provide for a family, and eventually retire.  Mercs dream of a couple big jobs that let them retire like kings, but if they've saved, and invested, they have a nest egg and they can retire to some planet and open a general store.  Others can look forward to gigs at defense contractors or teaching positions at local military academies.
I'm rarely right... Except when I am.  ---  Idle question.  What is the BV2 of dread?
Apollo's Law- if it needs Clan tech to make it useable, It doesn't deserve those resources in the first place.
Sure it isn't the most practical 'mech ever designed, but it's a hundred ton axe-murderer. If loving that is wrong I don't wanna be right.

Colt Ward

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Re: Short and long term chronic medical issues among Warriors
« Reply #75 on: 19 April 2019, 10:10:14 »
Your talking about a difference in degree- not in kind.  Kids in the IS get indoctrinated just like the Clan sibkos, just what the indoctrination is to accomplish is not the same.  And the family environment is going to be just as different.  I seem to remember a story about a noble's son who lost the family mech getting disowned- especially when he turned merc, he was legally disinherited.  We also get stories like neoBSG's Adamas.  Father was a famous pilot, both sons are pressured into following that path- even when one does not have the skills for it.  He feels so much pressure- has to be a Viper pilot- that he hangs on until he kills himself trying to meet that expectation.

Do you really want to say the samurai families of the DC are any different?  I seem to remember the Tetsuhara family had the expectation of the three sons becoming mechwarriors . . . or military academies for grade school age children?  Every society places expectations on children to succeed, its just the definition of success that varies by the society.

As we have never had the stages of sibko training spelled out- like when they start piloting a mech or actually participate in training that can be deadly- its kind of hard to peg them as child soldiers.
Colt Ward
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"We come in peace, please ignore the bloodstains."

"Greetings, Mechwarrior. You have been recruited by the Star League to defend the Frontier against Daoshen and the Capellan armada."

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: Short and long term chronic medical issues among Warriors
« Reply #76 on: 19 April 2019, 11:03:55 »
There have been several instances where Clan mechwariors were already serving on the Battlefield by the age of 15.
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Colt Ward

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Re: Short and long term chronic medical issues among Warriors
« Reply #77 on: 19 April 2019, 11:24:06 »
Your talking about the Jaguars defending Huntress, the Falcons testing sibkos to rebuild after the Refusal War, the Warden Wolves defense of Arc Royal and a few other desperate circumstances.
Colt Ward
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"We come in peace, please ignore the bloodstains."

"Greetings, Mechwarrior. You have been recruited by the Star League to defend the Frontier against Daoshen and the Capellan armada."

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: Short and long term chronic medical issues among Warriors
« Reply #78 on: 19 April 2019, 11:49:07 »
Actually, I was talking about the Jaguars Tau Galaxy.  On Huntress, the Jags resorted to arming pre-teens who weren't yet actual warriors.
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grimlock1

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Re: Short and long term chronic medical issues among Warriors
« Reply #79 on: 19 April 2019, 11:50:02 »
Your talking about a difference in degree- not in kind.  Kids in the IS get indoctrinated just like the Clan sibkos, just what the indoctrination is to accomplish is not the same.  And the family environment is going to be just as different.  I seem to remember a story about a noble's son who lost the family mech getting disowned- especially when he turned merc, he was legally disinherited.  We also get stories like neoBSG's Adamas.  Father was a famous pilot, both sons are pressured into following that path- even when one does not have the skills for it.  He feels so much pressure- has to be a Viper pilot- that he hangs on until he kills himself trying to meet that expectation.

Do you really want to say the samurai families of the DC are any different?  I seem to remember the Tetsuhara family had the expectation of the three sons becoming mechwarriors . . . or military academies for grade school age children?  Every society places expectations on children to succeed, its just the definition of success that varies by the society.

As we have never had the stages of sibko training spelled out- like when they start piloting a mech or actually participate in training that can be deadly- its kind of hard to peg them as child soldiers.

I submit that is a difference in kind.  While there will always be the extreme cases like you mention, but if someone had asked a 6 year old Galen Cox what he wanted to be when he grew up, and he said, football player, movie star, doctor, firefighter, cop, anything but mechwarrior, the adults in the room would say, "That's nice dear."  If you ask that question in a sibko, the only acceptable answer is "Khan."

Morgan Hasek-Davion didn't get the choice because his father was an abusive tyrant.  Neither did Victor, or Hohiro. It was expected but not demanded of Kai and he internalized that.  His sister, Kuan-Yin never served and that was okay, but Cassandra did train as a mechwarrior.  Victor's room mate, Renny came from peasant stock and his parents were proud that he was even accepted to the academy, let alone roomed with the Prince. 
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Sure it isn't the most practical 'mech ever designed, but it's a hundred ton axe-murderer. If loving that is wrong I don't wanna be right.

Apocal

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Re: Short and long term chronic medical issues among Warriors
« Reply #80 on: 19 April 2019, 12:47:01 »
Grayson, right?  He, like Phalen grew up in situation where the mercenary unit was an extended family.  But it was a family.  There was emotional support. The majority of soldiers in the IS grew up in family homes. In many cases it was expected that they go into the family business, but that's different from Clan sibkos.  There is threat/pressure against deviation. Your father may never forgive you for going law school rather than the Nagelring.  Most soldiers in IS militaries also grew up with other children. On "Bring your parent to school day," they got to see that Sarah's mom is a doctor, and Billy's dad is a dance teacher, and Lee's mom is a firefighter. They spent time in their friend's homes and saw that there are alternatives to the Nagelring and LCAF.   People who wash out of the academy will have a difficult transition if military service was a life long aspiration, but they can look around an see people having lives and being happy.

Clan warriors are told from the moment they can comprehend speech that there is only one acceptable path.  Think about the story of the college dean addressing the freshman class.  "Look to your left, look to your right.  One of those people won't be here in 4 years."  Imagine getting that speech at 4 years old. In that world, failing out and going to another caste is as bad as dying, probably worse. When IS kids are afraid of bombing a history test and getting grounded, Clan children are afraid failing a trial, and washing out. To have their codex stricken.  To never have a chance at a line in the Remembrance.

Most sibko washouts will probably find a life form themselves in the other castes, and many will probably be happy.  But while they are still in the sibkos, they live in constant fear. Once they test out, most warriors know they are destined for solhama units.

Going back to the the IS example, members of house or local militaries know that they can serve their time, provide for a family, and eventually retire.  Mercs dream of a couple big jobs that let them retire like kings, but if they've saved, and invested, they have a nest egg and they can retire to some planet and open a general store.  Others can look forward to gigs at defense contractors or teaching positions at local military academies.

Uh, with respect, none of this is what makes for what is usually meant by the term "child soldiers." It isn't a question of communal vs. individual family child-rearing, or their future retirement plans (which, it must be said, seemed to consist of dying when it came to the GDL, lol). It's about the effect war -- actual war, not training -- has on children and the personalities produced by such an environment. It would be not quite the opposite of a typical Clan warrior, but certainly nothing like the Clans of BT. For one thing, social mores and stigmas? Those aren't nearly so powerful tools of social control for child soldiers, so forget about zell, dezgra or batchalls. People play up the "might makes right" aspect of the Clans, but in a situation where you're dealing with people who really believe that, the nukes would've long since come out, with the offending party daring anyone else to speak a single word of protest. Turtle Bay wouldn't have been something that shamed the Clans (causing them to bid away all their warships from that point on) and reduced the Smoke Jaguars' standings amongst the other invading Clans; it would have been a lively-but-not-especially-noteworthy Friday night.

Also, regarding self-medicating: the books go out of their way (across authors too, that I noticed) to mention that Clan trueborns tend to be light drinkers, whereas freeborns in the book Bloodname went out of their way to get hammered constantly, just because trueborns tend to be (as written) uptight control freaks, even the good ones like Trent. Elementals might have some addiction issues with the combat drugs they are injected with, but maybe not.

One issue I'd expect to see a lot more of is stuff like degenerative brain conditions associated with constant impacts. Neurohelmets might as well be afros for all the protection they apparently provide and mechwarriors get dinged around constantly from hard jumps, drop deployments, getting punched in the head, their ride toppling over, etc. Elementals, with less mass to absorb the impacts, should be getting a fair bit of joint/bone wear and tear from the day-to-day operation of their suits and the requirement in combat to land on a quite hard surface with minimal prep. We're talking the same kind of strains and sprains you'd get jumping from a trampoline onto a rocky slope. Combined with their size, it could get ugly...

Sjhernan3060

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Re: Short and long term chronic medical issues among Warriors
« Reply #81 on: 19 April 2019, 14:55:01 »
I wonder if their are specialized med techs whose job it is to help ease a defeated/washed out trueborn into the other castes?

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: Short and long term chronic medical issues among Warriors
« Reply #82 on: 19 April 2019, 15:50:09 »
I'm pretty sure that the Clans don't bother with shrinks or job placement advisors.
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Sjhernan3060

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Re: Short and long term chronic medical issues among Warriors
« Reply #83 on: 19 April 2019, 17:11:51 »
I'm pretty sure that the Clans don't bother with shrinks or job placement advisors.

That would be my first thought but it would be more wasteful to lose a highly trained person right?

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Re: Short and long term chronic medical issues among Warriors
« Reply #84 on: 19 April 2019, 17:17:17 »
The Clans' schtick about hating waste is a lie.  Their whole system is incredibly wasteful from top to bottom.  They're the epitome of penny wise, pound foolish.
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rebs

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Re: Short and long term chronic medical issues among Warriors
« Reply #85 on: 19 April 2019, 17:23:51 »
It's an extreme meritocracy. If someone is mentally defective to the point that they cannot perform their duties, they are simply demoted to the laborer caste, or any caste where they can perform. 

So there is some level of "job placement" (assigned by the scientist caste), but not so much counseling.

And I agree, it is a wasteful system.
« Last Edit: 19 April 2019, 17:25:28 by rebs »
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Re: Short and long term chronic medical issues among Warriors
« Reply #86 on: 20 April 2019, 23:08:11 »
Ya know how we was talking about how darn big Elementals are and how we probably miss their sense of scale.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJf2gH4Gw0c

This blokes 7'1 so we could call him the ballpark average as they tend to go between 6'5 - 8' according to canon, so thats about the right height, but obviously not the bulk, well save as an Hellion Elemental, they apparently breed theirs for speed and not raw power.

Yeeeeeeeah that would be terrifying!
« Last Edit: 20 April 2019, 23:12:31 by marauder648 »
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Sjhernan3060

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Re: Short and long term chronic medical issues among Warriors
« Reply #87 on: 10 May 2019, 18:55:43 »
With regards to bionic or budded replacement limbs are there any long term medical issues?

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Re: Short and long term chronic medical issues among Warriors
« Reply #88 on: 10 May 2019, 21:29:12 »
itching . . . and for bionic, phantom pain
Colt Ward
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"We come in peace, please ignore the bloodstains."

"Greetings, Mechwarrior. You have been recruited by the Star League to defend the Frontier against Daoshen and the Capellan armada."

grimlock1

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Re: Short and long term chronic medical issues among Warriors
« Reply #89 on: 13 May 2019, 13:31:16 »
With regards to bionic or budded replacement limbs are there any long term medical issues?
Don't folks with bionics suffer chronic headaches b/c the implants cause low blood sugar?  Thus leading to a propensity toward painkillers. 
Why bother with the pain killers when it's nothing a pack of Twizzlers wouldn't cure?
I'm rarely right... Except when I am.  ---  Idle question.  What is the BV2 of dread?
Apollo's Law- if it needs Clan tech to make it useable, It doesn't deserve those resources in the first place.
Sure it isn't the most practical 'mech ever designed, but it's a hundred ton axe-murderer. If loving that is wrong I don't wanna be right.