Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread IV - READ THE FIRST POST

[ShroudedSciuridae]

Lola II is showing Star League in Exile availability, indicating they weren't all scrapped, diverted to Taurians  or turned into Caspars and at least one went on the Exodus. Any details on this strange duck?

[Sartris]

Probably pulled out of mothballs. The 3057r text notes that the taurian surprises suggested that all had been scrapped was put into doubt. May have been one. May have been more than one. Unless someone writes about it there won’t ever be a concrete explanation

[ShroudedSciuridae]

Another Lola issue. The Lola III is showing IS General Availability in Early Succession War but the only example of a Lola III used by a Great House I could find was the FWLS Bucharest.  Even that is problematic given the table in Liberation of Terra 2 p. 114 that no SLDF WarShips defected to a House, but the specific mention of a Lithium-Fusion battery negates that being a type which was supposed to be a Lola I or II.
Suggestion: Replace IS General Availability with FWL

[mitchberthelson]

Goliath and Scorpion Mechs still not available to SLDF during the Star League, despite manufacture on Oliver, which was a TH world and presence on relevant RAT's.

Also, Tau Wraith has the LMAS and C3I needed to reflect its listed implants in TRO 3085, but not the LPRB and RCN abilities that should come with the sensory implants it has. A cost adjustment may be necessary based on the rules in Interstellar Operations or from just adding the abilities and their Force Bonuses during conversion. Not sure.

[Sartris]

Goliath and Scorpion Mechs still not available to SLDF during the Star League, despite manufacture on Oliver, which was a TH world and presence on relevant RAT's.

I see what I added - SLDF Regular, Terran Hegemony, and Rim World Terran Corps

[mitchberthelson]

I see what I added - SLDF Regular, Terran Hegemony, and Rim World Terran Corps

Oh, great! I just checked and they're there. I checked a few days ago and they weren't added yet.

Thank you.

[pokefan548]

Clan Hell's Horses seems to lose access to the standard Mars Assault Vehicle during LSW-LosTech specifically. Appears to be a mistake, methinks?

[Sartris]

yup

[Kharn01]

The Buffalo BFFL Hovertruck has actually no AS stats on the MUL.

In Shrapnel 14 -> Campaign Water Raid p.190+ the Buffalo gets some stats.

Can we get a full AS Card on the MUL?

[CReller]

To reopen the Scorpion Tank C box from RG33, should the Escorpion Imperio/Scorpion Empire also get the Scorpion Tank C as they would have garrison Scorpion Tanks around and their worlds are now Clan (or Clan-adjacent) worlds?

Thanks in advance!

[Sartris]

not at this time

[theothersarah]

Tunnel Rat IV Mining Exoskeleton [Battle Claw/GL] (Sqd6) AS card has incorrect damage. Should be 1/0/0 (currently is 0*/1/0).

Tunnel Rat IV Mining Exoskeleton [Armored Glove/LMG] (Sqd6) should be 1/1/0 (currently is 1/0*/0).

Admittedly I don't know how to do the conversions myself, but this matches what MegaMek says, what the other manipulator variant of the Tunnel Rat IV has, and what other similarly-armed suits get.

Nighthawk PA(L) Mk. XXII BV is incorrect for all three squad sizes. Unlike AS stats I know how to calculate BA BV by hand, and the numbers on the MUL disagree with my hand calculations, TRO 3075, and MegaMek (once swapping the fancy Mauser 960 out for an Auto-Rifle) for all three. The BV per suit ends up very nearly identical (10.5 for the XXI versus 10.54 for the XXII) resulting in squads of 55/74/95 BV after rounding, identical to the Mk. XXI BVs. If the figures on the MUL were calculated automatically with tools, it could be that they had an AP weapon set other than an Auto-Rifle.

All Constable variants disagree with MegaMek's BV cost (MUL is a bit higher for each) but I didn't do any deeper investigation - might be worth a double-check. Nothing in MegaMek's BV breakdown for them look weird to me.

Also some availability inquiries of my own, hopefully a fair trade for the above:

All variants of all 3058 IS OmniMechs except the Raptor have fairly wide availability, and while usage falls off a bit by the ilClan era, are still at least available to the Draconis Combine, Mercenaries, and at least one or two other factions. The Raptor has very narrow availability, and is only available to the Draconis Combine starting in the Early Republic era. Given that TRO 3058 says that it "is one of the most prolific of any of the Inner Sphere OmniMechs" and that "such prolific use has seen the Raptor propagate to some extent beyond Combine boundaries" I feel like its availability is worth another look. I get that out of the original IS Omnis it's the only one built at only one site in one nation, but I think it's possible it should have slightly wider availability just via pure volume of production and use.

Out of three very similar but very regional BA prototype variants, Kage Light Battle Armor C and Infiltrator Mk. II Battle Armor Coral Intent seem to have reached mass production (losing the Unique faction) starting in the Late Republic era, while Trinity Medium Battle Armor (Ying Long BC3) goes extinct instead. I guess it never reached production like the other two? This surprised me because it has the least "non-standard" names out of the three.

Anyway, thanks for your hard work!

[CarcosanDawn]

Good work on the MUL; this may be a case where the TRO itself disagrees with another Sourcebook, but:

The Soarece Superheavy Tank (http://www.masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/5778/soarece-superheavy-mbt) is listed as Extinct in the Late Succession War (Renaissance) starting in 3020.

However, according to XTRO: Succession Wars I, where it appears, it was not taken out of service until Shiro III was overrun by the FWL and Grumman Amalgamated was able to produce the Ontos for the FWL. This TRO also cites it as Obsolete/2915, only 9 years after it began production.

However, according to the official Wolf's Dragoons sourcebook, the FWL had not overrun Shiro III until after 3012 - a century later. If the words from the TRO are taken literally (rather than the Obsolete design quirk), that means that the production of the Soarece likely only stopped around 3017 if not later - "... over a hundred had been built by the time House Marik finally captured Shiro III, home of Grumman Amalgamated. With the capture of the factory that still produced the venerable (and, ultimately, far superior) Ontos tank, orders for the Şoarece plummeted. A few years later, production of the superheavy vehicle was finally cancelled." directly from the Soarece entry in the TRO.

This means that surely it is not extinct(!) by 3020...

[Sartris]

Good work on the MUL; this may be a case where the TRO itself disagrees with another Sourcebook, but:

The Soarece Superheavy Tank (http://www.masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/5778/soarece-superheavy-mbt) is listed as Extinct in the Late Succession War (Renaissance) starting in 3020.

However, according to XTRO: Succession Wars I, where it appears, it was not taken out of service until Shiro III was overrun by the FWL and Grumman Amalgamated was able to produce the Ontos for the FWL. This TRO also cites it as Obsolete/2915, only 9 years after it began production.

However, according to the official Wolf's Dragoons sourcebook, the FWL had not overrun Shiro III until after 3012 - a century later. If the words from the TRO are taken literally (rather than the Obsolete design quirk), that means that the production of the Soarece likely only stopped around 3017 if not later - "... over a hundred had been built by the time House Marik finally captured Shiro III, home of Grumman Amalgamated. With the capture of the factory that still produced the venerable (and, ultimately, far superior) Ontos tank, orders for the Şoarece plummeted. A few years later, production of the superheavy vehicle was finally cancelled." directly from the Soarece entry in the TRO.

This means that surely it is not extinct(!) by 3020...

As noted in the XTRO errata thread, the assumption that the Shiro III text is being referenced is from the 3010s is incorrect. Production ceased in noted year of obsolescence.

However, it was agreed that a stay of execution until the Clan Invasion is appropriate. The last examples were definitely scrapped or abandoned by 3050.

[Sartris]

Tunnel Rat IV Mining Exoskeleton [Battle Claw/GL] (Sqd6) AS card has incorrect damage. Should be 1/0/0 (currently is 0*/1/0).

Tunnel Rat IV Mining Exoskeleton [Armored Glove/LMG] (Sqd6) should be 1/1/0 (currently is 1/0*/0).

Admittedly I don't know how to do the conversions myself, but this matches what MegaMek says, what the other manipulator variant of the Tunnel Rat IV has, and what other similarly-armed suits get.

The PV guru will look into this. Note that MML isn't infallible and its values can sometimes be off.

Nighthawk PA(L) Mk. XXII BV is incorrect for all three squad sizes. Unlike AS stats I know how to calculate BA BV by hand, and the numbers on the MUL disagree with my hand calculations, TRO 3075, and MegaMek (once swapping the fancy Mauser 960 out for an Auto-Rifle) for all three. The BV per suit ends up very nearly identical (10.5 for the XXI versus 10.54 for the XXII) resulting in squads of 55/74/95 BV after rounding, identical to the Mk. XXI BVs. If the figures on the MUL were calculated automatically with tools, it could be that they had an AP weapon set other than an Auto-Rifle.

All Constable variants disagree with MegaMek's BV cost (MUL is a bit higher for each) but I didn't do any deeper investigation - might be worth a double-check. Nothing in MegaMek's BV breakdown for them look weird to me.

investigating

All variants of all 3058 IS OmniMechs except the Raptor have fairly wide availability, and while usage falls off a bit by the ilClan era, are still at least available to the Draconis Combine, Mercenaries, and at least one or two other factions. The Raptor has very narrow availability, and is only available to the Draconis Combine starting in the Early Republic era. Given that TRO 3058 says that it "is one of the most prolific of any of the Inner Sphere OmniMechs" and that "such prolific use has seen the Raptor propagate to some extent beyond Combine boundaries" I feel like its availability is worth another look. I get that out of the original IS Omnis it's the only one built at only one site in one nation, but I think it's possible it should have slightly wider availability just via pure volume of production and use.

The original and only plant was turned into radioactive kindling during the Jihad and never rebuilt. The Raptors in service in modern eras are all that remain, closest to where the major component stockpiles would be located. This is the fate of many units that have been out of production since the 3060s and 70s.

Out of three very similar but very regional BA prototype variants, Kage Light Battle Armor C and Infiltrator Mk. II Battle Armor Coral Intent seem to have reached mass production (losing the Unique faction) starting in the Late Republic era, while Trinity Medium Battle Armor (Ying Long BC3) goes extinct instead. I guess it never reached production like the other two? This surprised me because it has the least "non-standard" names out of the three.

life's funny like that sometimes. the Ying Long BC3 never reached full production and the prototypes were lost.

[Maelwys]

So in this post Mordel states that the Kiso CommandMech gains the Basic Fire Control ability, and its point value drops because of that.

However, I'll note that the RS shows the correct value for the Kiso having the Advanced Fire Control. Also, there are two other Kiso variants, both with BVs that match having Advanced Fir Control. One could be an error, three seems to be a pattern. I talked to Mordel about it, and he mentioned talking to the dev on the MUL Discord, but there was no mention of the other two variants. So is this something we should look at?

I'd also mention that the fluff in TR3075 gives the Kiso a targeting and tracking system (pg 210 of the second printing). It seems odd to me that a later variant would just rip it out. Perhaps we should add it back in and return the BV to 940?

[theothersarah]

The PV guru will look into this. Note that MML isn't infallible and its values can sometimes be off.

investigating

The original and only plant was turned into radioactive kindling during the Jihad and never rebuilt. The Raptors in service in modern eras are all that remain, closest to where the major component stockpiles would be located. This is the fate of many units that have been out of production since the 3060s and 70s.

life's funny like that sometimes. the Ying Long BC3 never reached full production and the prototypes were lost.

Thank you for the response. I guess I forgot about that little "Jihad" thing and what it would do to production of various things.

Regarding the Alpha Strike stats, I don't usually take anything MegaMek says as law until I can verify it myself, but the GL variant's 1 damage at medium range is eyebrow-raising given all it has is one 3-hex weapon.

[Lanceman]

Is the availability on the Karnov UR Transport (Artillery) correct? It seems weird that it would be "Unique" but also around in almost any era.

[Sartris]

So in this post Mordel states that the Kiso CommandMech gains the Basic Fire Control ability, and its point value drops because of that.

However, I'll note that the RS shows the correct value for the Kiso having the Advanced Fire Control. Also, there are two other Kiso variants, both with BVs that match having Advanced Fir Control. One could be an error, three seems to be a pattern. I talked to Mordel about it, and he mentioned talking to the dev on the MUL Discord, but there was no mention of the other two variants. So is this something we should look at?

I'd also mention that the fluff in TR3075 gives the Kiso a targeting and tracking system (pg 210 of the second printing). It seems odd to me that a later variant would just rip it out. Perhaps we should add it back in and return the BV to 940?

The dev was talked to and they should remain as basic

[Maelwys]

The dev was talked to and they should remain as basic

Just the Kiso CommandMech, or all of them? (as I said, TR3075 actually gives them a targeting and tracking system in the fluff).

[Sartris]

For all three, yes. BV will have to be recalculated because command console in MML assumes AFC, which is not the case.

[CarcosanDawn]

The AC/10 Vedette in the FWL faction that fought at Helm has a Fusion engine according to the Helm sourcebook (it's how they freed up the tonnage to upgrade to an AC/10), but retains the EE special rule.

The Fusion Vedette also has ~33% more armor (128 points vs' a normal Vedette's 96 in CBT), meaning the Alpha Strike Card on the MUL should have another armor bubble (if I'm doing my brainmath correctly).

[Sartris]

correct on both accounts. fixed.

[Kharn01]

The Phoenix Hawk 1b special has an ER PPC and an ER Large Laser.

I think it should have the OVL special.

http://masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/2492/phoenix-hawk-pxh-1b-special

[mordel]

The heat-modified long-range damage value is the same as the unmodified damage value. Therefore it does not get OVL.

The Phoenix Hawk 1b special has an ER PPC and an ER Large Laser.

I think it should have the OVL special.

http://masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/2492/phoenix-hawk-pxh-1b-special

[Kharn01]

The heat-modified long-range damage value is the same as the unmodified damage value. Therefore it does not get OVL.

Thank you!

[Wrangler]

Carrier Class Dropship is missing - BV, Rules Level, and Role.

http://masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/3901/carrier

[Sartris]

every dropship from 3057r is http://masterunitlist.info/Source/Details/256/technical-readout-3057-revised-edition

 there are no extant recordsheets.

[Daryk]

Will there ever be? ???

[Sartris]

Unknown (I know as much as anyone else outside of like five people). Nor is this a space to discuss potential products