Is it time for an Underwater Rules Overhaul (?)

[Lycanphoenix]

BattleTech's current underwater rules in a nutshell:
- Half of your weapons no longer work.
- You could catastrophically implode at any moment.
- If it makes you feel any better, your mech runs slightly cooler.

Needless to say, I don't like it. These rules just aren't fun... Like they're purposefully designed to make you NOT want to play underwater.

I'm of the opinion that these rules need a significant overhaul... But I don't know where to start. Suggestions?

[AlphaMirage]

I'd say reducing the chance of breach to only on '2' (unless you mount Hargel) would be the best step. Compartments can flood when armor is breached without Hargel which I think is fair. Half speed without UMUs are fine, pilot checks each hex though are not. I think having a IUMU might even be better as it allows for speedy underwater movement for even large mechs. I'm also pretty okay with the energy weapon range reduction. The real problem is Sensors, EWAR, and LOS (this is also true of the game as a whole), as well as the interaction with the surface. We have the equipment to manage most everything else (MASS, UMUs, Hargel).

There is no reason not to just use LRTs at present but I think there needs to be some other drawback like a -4 cluster reduction that gives you a reason to use something else. I think LRTs should actually have half range as they are very lightweight torpedoes. It should make more sense to use a Seabolt (from my Battlesea mod) and maybe have a MPM (the Undine aquatic missile launcher) ammo loadout for SRMs as that gives lightweight mechs the ability to strike from below. You could even have say super-cavitating ballistic ammo (at half load) which could make things interesting as that might allow ballistics to possess their full range giving you are reason to use a cannon underwater.

[drjones]

I'm not sure about an overhaul, but one thing that seems odd to me is that breach checks only need to be made for damage incurred in the water, not for damage taken prior to entering the water (see TW pg. 121). I don't see the reasoning for that; it seems that prior damage could have compromised the damaged location and made it not watertight. I suppose there could be an explanation of either playability or something having to do with water pressure during the damage sequence. Also, if prior damage could make a location not watertight an interesting question would be whether you'd roll for a breach before or after entering the water; the underlying rationale would be whether a breach is detectable by the mechwarrior/crew before water starts pouring into the location upon submerging...

[AlphaMirage]

I believe the standard rules are that any location without armor floods if you enter water so that is already taken care of. That said yes prior damage taken is not counted for the breach rolls.

I think the other thing might be that a water vessel should be built to watertight standards so they shouldn't flood if a location is destroyed. Battlemechs are not normally, however I think maybe having a reinforced chassis protects the components inside so that armor breach doesn't auto-flood. Gives reinforced structure a greater reason to be used and could enable underwater construction/mining mechs which I think might give you more reasons to fight down there.

[Daryk]

I see no reason to encourage underwater play... it's supposed to suck for technology optimized for fighting above water.

[AlphaMirage]

Battlemechs are an ALL-terrain vehicle though and someone might want to play Blue Submarine No 6, it wouldn't actually change that much but its in the same niche as fighting on a Warship and there are rules for that. There are also plenty of reasons to fight below the waves (Harjel, Gold/Minerals, Planetary Defense C2 Nodes, factories, Society bases, etc...) but far fewer to fight on a Warship.

[Lycanphoenix]

I see no reason to encourage underwater play...

It's in the game, ain't it? By trying to avoid this conflict, the Clans might call you a coward.

[Daryk]

3025 grognard here... I don't play with that stuff if I can avoid it...

[Zematus737]

Have you looked at the expanded Underwater rules found in TO pg193?  It's not much, but there isn't much you can do down there either.  It's too expensive to build down there and things are too vulnerable to the damage sustained.  You're better off going up to space rather than down there.

[AlphaMirage]

I don't know about that. Underwater construction certainly would be more complicated but space infrastructure is pretty vulnerable to anything and importantly visible. Having a hardened undersea facility could be advantageous to protect vulnerable infrastructure and for the security of whatever is inside.

[Lycanphoenix]

Sounds like the perfect recipe for a Nebula California version of Bioshock.

[AlphaMirage]

Or that Koltan mission in KOTOR. Sure a bad experiment on a space station could be pushed into a gas giant but a couple det charges and it's buried in the abyss under megatons of water.

[idea weenie]

I don't know about that. Underwater construction certainly would be more complicated but space infrastructure is pretty vulnerable to anything and importantly visible. Having a hardened undersea facility could be advantageous to protect vulnerable infrastructure and for the security of whatever is inside.

I'd expect a dedicated underwater facility would have lots of submarine units to protect itself.  Add in a few expendable floating sensor pods to keep an eye out for enemy units being dropped from overhead.

Battlemechs would be Industrialmechs used for underwater construction/repairs/maintenance.

[Zematus737]

In vacuum you may have to deal with radiation issues, but in the sea you will definitely need larger maintenance crews and have to deal with corrosion too.  Whatever you can build in space would last longer and will always be more useful than an underwater facility that can never reposition itself.  Defensively used as a fortification.  Sure.  I'm just questioning the practicality of it in comparison to a space shipyard and warships.  The purpose for anything down there is to hide whatever it is you don't want to be observed.  You can call it security if you want to, but it sounds like a replay of Bioshock to me.

[DevianID]

I'm with you on the needing to be more 'fun' part.  Water combat comes up a lot when a mech standing in water falls over.  So even in 3025 it happens all the time, cause you want those leg mounted heat sinks to work overtime, and you want partial cover.

The actual breach rules, flooding, PSRs for every square of movement, and reduced ranges on most things makes underwater combat a slog though.  It makes you roll lots of extra dice, looking for very low odds things like breaches on 10+s and falls on 4-s.  Its also pretty short ranged, and the torpedoes are either SRTs which really cause a lot of rolls, or LRTs which, thanks to the massive speed reduction and range reduction, are too punishing if the other side doesn't have them.  Its rocket tag, but not the fun fast paced frenzy kind like in quake.