IS Omni-mechs...A dead end?

[LastChanceCav]

I actually don't mind the BJ-2O and find it to be a useful and flexible little trooper.  It can bring the firepower of any of the classic SW era Heavies to field.  Like Moonsword mentioned though, it suffers for crits.  Maybe the layout of the Blackjack (the FWL's least messed up locally produced omni) was used as the basis for the Perseus, which would help explain the similar poor choices in ES crit allocation made on Kalidasa.

Cheers,
LCC

[Moonsword]

I think the BJ-2O's bad rep stems mostly from its being a 4/6/4 50 ton mech with an XL engine.  It does outgun many heavy mechs, but it's pretty fragile.

That's a significant part of it from what I saw in the Fan Article thread about it.  They need to be used with a certain amount of discretion.  I do wonder if the critical issues it has have anything to do with the Perseus's problems in that same area - both of them are generally suffering for the inclusion of endo-steel.

LCC: Beat me to it, darn you!

[LastChanceCav]

I think the "invention" of light ferro armor and endo composite structure could be really useful for a next generation omni, freeing up a few extra tons without totally devouring all the crits.  On something like the Sunder you could pull the fixed DHS in the arm, install endo-composite for 2 more free tons and allocate the 7 crits to the 3 left free by removing the DHS and 2 into each leag (which aren't used in any of the current configs any way).  Those couple of tons could then be used for those little goodies like CASE, C3 and ECM.  I like allocating structural crits asymmetrically on omnis to maintain at least one 10 crit bay for the big ACs.  That one ES crit in the Templar's right arm always drives me a little crazy.

Cheers,
LCC

[Moonsword]

It's possible.  I'm not sure I don't favor the Hauptmann's approach for the assault Omni, though - big, a focus on the basics to simplify mass production, and as many crits open as possible.  Assault 'Mechs are big ticket items.  A Hauptmann is cheap enough that you can buy one and a lot of pods for the same cost as, say, a Thunder Hawk.  (Transportation arrangements are, of course, another problem...)

[Onisuzume]

Why has Kurita not developed a new OmniMech, in fact?

*Points to smoking, radioactive crater that was one known as Luthien Armour Works.*

So to put things into perspective:
IS OmniMech Timeline:
3052: Battle fo Luthien, Draconis Combine receives a lot of Clan OmniMech salvage.
3052: Raptor (25t).
3054: Sunder (90t).
3056: Owens (35t), Firestarter-O (45t).
3057: Strider (40t).
3058: Black Hawk-KU (60t), BlackJack-O (50t), Perseus (75t).
3059: Avatar (70t), Arctic Fox (30t).
3060: Men Shen (55t), Hauptmann (95t).
3062: Templar (85t).
3065: Battle Cobra (C*-made, 40t).
3067/3068: Wobbie Jihad begins, LAW nuked.
3069: Malak (30t), Preta (45t), Grigori (60t), Deva (70t), Seraph (85t), Archangel (100t).

OmniMech tonnages: 25t, 30t, 35t, 40t, 45t, 50t, 55t, 60t, 70t, 75t, 85t, 90t, 95t, 100t.
Missing tonnages: 10t, 15t, 20t, 65t, 80t.

So yeah, not much time to R&D new omnimechs using new technologies since the last 2nd generation IS Omni (C* Battle Cobra). The Compact FE is from 3068, LFE from 3062 (Templar could've had it, theoretically), XXLFE simply cost too much. Compact Gyro is from 3068, Heavy-Duty Gyro from 3067, XL Gyro from 3067. Small CPit is from 3067, Torso-Mounted is from 3053 (this one might actually be useful). Endo-Composite is from 3067, Composite and Reinforced don't have crits so I can't check with SSW... TSM has limited use. Void-Sig is from 3070. Light FF is from 3067, Heavy FF from 3069, Stealth from 3063, Glazer/Reactive are from 3058/3063, not sure about Hardened...

So theoretically, if the Jihad hadn't happened, we probably would've seen 3rd generation IS omnis by now (other than the celestials). The biggest IS Omni factory lies in radioactive ruins, so that'll slow the process even further.

now ask yourself this. how long exactly did it take the Clans to develop their 2nd generation Omnimechs?

The Coyotl is from 2854, so it'd be about 16 years till the first 2nd generation Clan Omni (Nova). The IS did it even faster in only 6 years (Perseus is the first 2nd gen IS omni?). With the clans we see a couple of designs in the first half of the 2870s, then a gap until 2887 (13 year gap). Then a 3-year gap, a 10-year gap, a 26-year gap, 4-year gap, etc. So the IS is producing new Omni generations at a much higher rate.

[M-Rex]

*Points to smoking, radioactive crater that was one known as Luthien Armour Works.*
IS OmniMech Timeline:
3052: Battle fo Luthien, Draconis Combine receives a lot of Clan OmniMech salvage.
3052: Raptor.
3054: Sunder.
3056: Owens, Firestarter-O.
3057: Strider.
3058: Black Hawk-KU, BlackJack-O, Perseus.
3059: Avatar, Arctic Fox.
3060: Men Shen, Hauptmann.
3062: Templar.
3065: Battle Cobra (C*-made).
3067/3068: Wobbie Jihad begins.
3069: Malak, Preta, Grigori, Deva, Seraph, Archangel.

So yeah, not much time to R&D new omnimechs using new technologies since the last 2nd generation IS Omni (C* Battle Cobra). The Compact FE is from 3068, LFE from 3062 (Templar could've had it, theoretically), XXLFE simply cost too much. Compact Gyro is from 3068, Heavy-Duty Gyro from 3067, XL Gyro from 3067. Small CPit is from 3067, Torso-Mounted is from 3053 (this one might actually be useful). Endo-Composite is from 3067, Composite and Reinforced don't have crits so I can't check with SSW... TSM has limited use. Void-Sig is from 3070. Light FF is from 3067, Heavy FF from 3069, Stealth from 3063, Glazer/Reactive are from 3058/3063, not sure about Hardened...

So theoretically, if the Jihad hadn't happened, we probably would've seen 3rd generation IS omnis by now (other than the celestials). The biggest IS Omni factory lies in radioactive ruins, so that'll slow the process even further.Don't have the exact date on the Coyotl at hand, but assuming its from 2858 (like the RAT), then it'd be about 12 years till the first 2nd generation Clan Omni (Nova). The IS did it even faster in only 6 years (Perseus is the first 2nd gen IS omni?). With the clans we see a couple of designs in the first half of the 2870s, then a gap until 2887 (13 year gap). Then a 3-year gap, a 10-year gap, a 26-year gap, 4-year gap, etc. So the IS is producing new Omni generations at a much higher rate.

Succinct and to the point.  Thank you!  That's an interesting list.

[cray]

But asides that, do we think carrying around the modular bits to reconfigure several omnis, is that helpful to our logistical train?  I mean if anything it adds complexity when perhaps we really seek simplicity.

Ah, but look at the advantages (assuming your unit uses omnis correctly):

Say you've got a standard Inner Sphere company, which is a jumble of different units that occasionally receive a weak theme at the lance level (scout lance, fire support lance, etc.) In fact, the 3025 average seemed to be 14 different designs in a 12-'Mech lance. ;) That means you've got to stock 14 different models of engines, 14 different gyros, 14 different types of actuators, 14 different types of armor, 14 different communication systems, 14 different targeting & tracking systems, 14 different cockpits, and ammo and spares for 14 sets of weapons.

Obviously, I kid about the 14 model part, but while there might be some commonality in engines (e.g., 120s, 275s and 300s) and weapons, and some companies did have multiples of some units (especially Wasps and Stingers), the logistical system is a frickin' nightmare. When you start looking at weapon brandnames/models and varying AC calibers in a single AC class, it's enough to reduce a quartermaster to tears.

On the other hand, if you can handle all the jobs in a company - or battalion, or regiment - with 3-5 OmniMech designs, you've just wiped out a lot of those problems. You've got common weapon models shared amongst the omnis and, if one type of omni shows up with weapons from a different manufacturer, just reconfigure its pods to use the weapons you normally field. Having only 3-5 designs cuts down on the numbers of engines, gyros, actuators, internal structure, electronics, etc. needed for repairs and maintenance.

And when you start noting the power of the "Swiss Army Weapons," then you don't really need to drag along a bunch of different pod configurations. You shouldn't need more than a handful to begin with.

[Minemech]

 The purpose of an Owens is to bring its fixed equipment and battle armor to the field. Otherwise...


 

[Moonsword]

So dedicating an OmniMech chassis doing a job that can be done by a non-Omni ICE hovercraft almost as well strikes you as a good idea?

Even just DHS would let it have an entire world of flexibility it doesn't have right now.  No one's arguing that you can't make lemonade.  We're arguing the League was handed a lemon.

[ANS Kamas P81]

Well, the one argument in the Owens' favor is the go-anywhere nature of 'mechs.  Crossing a forest is easy, especially with jumpjets; until there's an OmniKanga I think the idea of a BA taxi has merit.

Not a LOT...since it's pretty limited tying up a whole lance of mechs for a BA platoon.  However, if you used them as recon units primarily, and carried good heavy-class BA, say Phalanx perhaps, you could turn it into a bit of a nasty surprise for someone wanting to go play scout killer.

Or, thinking further on it and adding to the post, perhaps as an ambush transport?  Seed some Owens with BA units in the backfield, using the lack of terrain restrictions to get through impassable areas, drop BA along lines of retreat to go dig in and hide, and send the Owens away.  Again, you're using a 'Mech as a taxi instead of a regular 'mech, but it does have the mobility to exploit.  That's about all it's got, but...

[Moonsword]

Again, we're making lemonade here.  The Owens would have an enormous amount of potential opened up by DHS and perhaps dropping the slave.

[Onisuzume]

Succinct and to the point.  Thank you!  That's an interesting list.

Indeed...
Also, I finally managed to read more than just the first page of this thread..  :D
So the statement of the FWL taking so long to develop the Perseus must've been either sarcasm, or rather misplaced (seeing as its the first non-DC IS omni). It also premiered the same year as the other IS heavy omni (although with 15-ton difference). Hm.. I think I'll update that timeline to add the 'mech tonnages...

[Arkansas Warrior]

I think part of the knock on the Perseus is perception.  OOC it came out in '67, with the later 2nd gens.  People don't look as much at th IC date as "oh, it came out later like the Templar right?"

[LastChanceCav]

Onisuzume, where did you get that date for the Avatar?  I'm not sure a 3059 mech would have first appeared in TRO 3058.  It was also already in use before Operation Bulldog which took place in 3059.

Cheers,
LCC

[Minemech]

The Field Manual would have told people the Perseus's actual date, as well as the faction specific variants for the Blackjack omni and Firestarter omni. the Perseus did not really exist in large numbers in 3059, so it probably got ignored.

 The trick to understanding why the League chose the Strider and Owens is to realize they were trying to integrate battle armor and semi-guided munitions at the same time. Those 2 omnis could transport the BA, and spot for semi-guideds and Arrows when needed. It was fairly smart from a logistical standpoint, and the Strider offered something the Owens did not, it was cheap.

[Alexander Knight]

Actually, the reason the League has Owens and Strider machines is because those are the machines the Draconis Combine LET THEM HAVE.

The FWL did not design them, did not pay for them to be designed, and did not steal them.

[Minemech]

Actually, the reason the League has Owens and Strider machines is because those are the machines the Draconis Combine LET THEM HAVE.

The FWL did not design them, did not pay for them to be designed, and did not steal them.

P18 paragraph 5

[Moonsword]

Of what?  A Field Manual?  TRO3058U?  The Oxford English Dictionary?

[Minemech]

 Field Manual
I forgot to add P 54 which mentions the unit's commander[1st Marik Militia] asking for production of the Owens by name.

[Onisuzume]

Onisuzume, where did you get that date for the Avatar?  I'm not sure a 3059 mech would have first appeared in TRO 3058.  It was also already in use before Operation Bulldog which took place in 3059.
Cheers,
LCC

Both the MUL and SSW list the year as 3059, the source being RS3058U/RS3058Uu (MUL/SSW).

[LastChanceCav]

Both the MUL and SSW list the year as 3059, the source being RS3058U/RS3058Uu (MUL/SSW).

I wonder if that's an error, since it appears in the RATs in the FM: DCMS, which IIRC was from 3058.

Cheers,
LCC

PS: I just posted this question in "ask the Writers"

[Kojak]

Technically, it's from January 1st, 3059.

[LastChanceCav]

I'm just saying 1 day is a quick quick transition from starting production to the one of the most common heavies in A and B rated units.

Does anyone know the in universe date for the original TRO3058?

Cheers,
LCC

[Arkansas Warrior]

January '58.

[Taurevanime]

I'm just saying 1 day is a quick quick transition from starting production to the one of the most common heavies in A and B rated units.

Does anyone know the in universe date for the original TRO3058?

Cheers,
LCC

Please remember the Random Unit Tables are meant for GMs to quickly roll up a force that has many different capabilities and a general faction flavour. They are by no means indicative of availability or prevalence of a design.

[LastChanceCav]

Looking back at the fluff for the Avatar (now that I'm actually home and not going by memory) it says that the Avatar was:
- Produced "several" years after research started in 3052
- Being deployed along the clan border for two years before the Lyran Secession, after which distribution switch to C*
which would make its debut around 3055. 

Cheers,
LCC

[jklantern]

Looking back at the fluff for the Avatar (now that I'm actually home and not going by memory) it says that the Avatar was:
- Produced "several" years after research started in 3052
- Being deployed along the clan border for two years before the Lyran Secession, after which distribution switch to C*
which would make its debut around 3055. 

Cheers,
LCC

You see, the design went into production in early 3059.  Then, Theodore Kurita stuck several into Star League Time Capsules (designed by Terran Hegemony Temporal Mechanics Professor B. S. Johnson) for posterity's sake.  This resulted in the machines being dug up on the planet Ankh-Morpork in 3049, but it took everyone several years to figure out how to make them work without them blowing up catastrophically and transforming the pilot into a cat girl (both side effects of the Johnson Time Capsule).

[StCptMara]

So...Somethings we know from comments on the stuff in the Dark Age is that
OmniMechs were part of the "signature aesthetic" of the Nova Cats. It was implied that
most other groups had stpped making OmniMechs, in fact, the Novas we saw were supposedly
no-longer OmniMechs.

It seems that, by the Dark Ages, either OmniMechs are rare, even among the clans(The front line
Clan Mechs, like the Shrike, were conventional BattleMechs, not OmniMechs). So, if even the Clans
are using fewer OmniMechs, what does that say for the Inner Sphere?

Now, we can see very good reasons for all IS 'mechs, especially following the "Lets reduce our militaries"
craze that Stone kicked off, to be OmniMechs. One OmniMech can perform MORE jobs then a standard Battlemech,
for example.  If you have a lance of solid, Medium OmniMechs, they can be used for Recon, Scout Hunting, Line Units,
Fire Support, just about any job that any medium BattleMech can do.

Of course, with Conventional BattleMechs, you produce adaptable pilots. A Centurion Pilot, for example, can perform
recon, Scout Hunting, Fire Support, or as a line unit, simply because the capabilities of the Centurion allow for all of
these jobs (though..I feel sorry for the Centurion that draws Recon Duty). So, we run into an issue: Those who
swear by OmniMechs are expecting someone to adapt the 'Mech to the situation, or pick a configuration that works
for them or their unit. On the other hand, the Conventional 'Mech pilot is going to be more prone towards adapting
how they use their 'mech to the role they are having to fill.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

I don't really see that.  There's only so much "adapting" you can do to try to fill specific roles with the same mech.  Doesn't matter how flexible your thinking is, a Centurion isn't going to spontaneously become a brawler without a change in its warload.  You can certainly try to brawl, but with only an LB-10X and a single medium laser, you're just not going to do it very well.  Omnimechs offer dramatically better adaptability in that regard.  Got a lance of Avatars that need to guard a city?  Outfit them with A or F configurations.  Got an open plain?  Go with the B, C, or H.  It can pull the roll of Archer, Warhammer, or Grasshopper.  No matter how hard you try, you can't do the opposite, however.  It makes far more sense in an era of smaller armies to go with highly flexable multi-role platforms rather than specialists, but we keep seeing the opposite happen.

[ArkRoyalRavager]

I think it has more to do with the destruction of most Omnimech factories in the Jihad...the Lyrans and Capellans seem to be the only people having intact Omni production lines now.

For the Clans, every Clan's Omni-to-Standard Mech ratio is self-explanatory through M&M, but i still cant help feeling theres an Omni hate going on to see their numbers being so diminished. Even the Ghost Bears and WiE, who supposedly have the most Omni lines going through the Jihad, are turning to standards to fill holes in their militaries.