Author Topic: 'Mech of the Week, 27/4/2012: C-ANG-O Archangel  (Read 19986 times)

Kopfjager

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'Mech of the Week, 27/4/2012: C-ANG-O Archangel
« on: 25 April 2012, 19:20:20 »
At first glance, the Archangel will likely be a mech that makes people do a double-take and take a second, long look at the record sheet. On paper, the design choices made in creating this largest of the Word of Blake’s Celestial Omnimech might seem questionable at best, utterly ridiculous (or idiotic) at worst. And indeed, the basic design of the Archangel presents a study of contrasts in mech design.

Weighing in at 100 tons, the Archangel is at the sweet spot for maximum available weight for a 3/5 mech. Weight-saving measures comes from the use of Endo-Steel internals and Small Cockpit, the latter of which might be a rather questionable thing considering the penalty to PSRs it gives. However, given the fact that the Archangel is tailored for use by Manei Domini pilots, and that most of the MDs that pilot one will likely have VDNI/Buffered VDNI, the Small Pilot is an understandable design choice.

What makes the weight-saving measures seem impotent however, is the choice of an “Immortus” 300 Compact Engine for the mech. Weighing a full nine and a half tons more than a standard engine of the same rating, this engine alone eats up all the weight saved by the use of Endo-Steel and Small Cockpit. The Compact Gyro further eats up into the available tonnage. What this combination results in however, is a base chassis with a unique setup, being able to fit in large guns in its Center Torso as well as a backup weapon on its head, a feature every single configuration of the Archangel have utilized.

A paltry thirty-six tons of pod space is rather laughable for a 100-ton assault mech, but in this case, actual play has shown me that the Archangel’s trade of firepower for sheer survivability gives it certain qualities that other mechs will be hard-pressed to match. Wrapped in a full nineteen and a half ton of armor plating, the Archangel is as well armored as any mech can be without using hardened/modular armor or being a quad. The armor distribution passes the smart-armor check with flying colors, with the extra-thick back armor hinting that the mech is likely expected to be in the thick of things. With the Center Torso able to take three Gauss slugs, the side torsos and arms two each, and the legs able to take a UAC/20 double-tap without breaching, it is well protected. Even on the back, the side torsos can take an errant PPC hit without letting it through, and the rear CT is capable of handling a single Gauss slug.

It is this combination of thick armor, compact engine and gyro, and a tendency to all-energy setups that grants the Archangel its well-earned reputation of a literal “zombie” mech. In most configurations its internals are usually well-padded with non-explosive equipment and/or double heat sinks, and even a TAC to the CT will have less than 50% chance to touch this mech’s engines or gyroes. In fact, it is usually faster and more efficient to kill one of these beasts by coring it rather than trying to crit it to death.

The Archangel sports 6 common configurations, one experimental configuration, and one personalized configuration, outlined below:

Invictus (Prime) – A true oddball even amongst the rest, the Invictus configuration is armed only with a Heavy PPC and a Plasma Rifle with 20 shots as well as the Retractable Blade common to all celestial’s Invictus configuration. Despite possessing jump jets, this is still a 100-ton 3/5/3 mech that is unable to deal more than 25 points of damage at range, even if those shots will be accurate thanks to the targeting computer it carries. The value of the Retractable Blade highly depends on which ruleset you use, as under TW rules its ability to extend on punch attacks gives this mech a 10-point punch that can potentially roll for critical twice. Considering that this mech possessed a Guardian ECM suite, it might be worthwhile to use it as a huge, kicking, punching distraction that also spots for the rest of its level II.

Dominus (A) – Armed with twin arm-mounted Heavy PPCs as well as the ER Medium Lasers mounted on the CT and a Snub-Nose PPC mounted on the head, the Dominus is a trooper that can dish out the pain and keep shooting until it dies thanks to its centerline armaments. Twenty double heat sinks allows it to use both heavies as well as either the snubbie or the ERMLs while only building movement heat. While the Snub-Nose PPC suffers from being used outside short range, the ability to toss around a pair of 15-point hits with C3i assistance at will gives this mech a higher threat level than most of the other configurations.

Infernus (B) – Very similar to the Dominus (A) configuration, the Infernus trades one Heavy PPC for a pair of Light PPCs and throws away the ER Mediums for a second Snub-Nose PPC. This setup makes the Infernus an arguably better brawler than the Dominus, but the two configurations are so similar I would almost consider them interchangeable.

Comminus (C) – The one oddball configuration, this is the only Archangel config without any serious centerline weaponry, and is also the only one armed with ammunition-based weapon. In this case it is armed with a pair of MRM-40 racks as well as pair of ER Medium Lasers, with an ER Small Laser mounted facing the rear. A Guardian ECM suite makes this configuration particularly well-suited for city-fighting, and its C3i computer allows it to use its MRMs to their full potential, since it can use them from 15 hexes away at short-range to-hit numbers. This configuration works well as a shooter in a C3i linked team or as a straightforward in-your-face assault mech. In a city it would also be a pretty mean ambusher. Unfortunately, the pilot will have to pick his/her shots, since only 12 rounds of ammunition is provided for each MRM rack.

Luminos (D) – Another configuration that would be at home in confined terrain, the Luminos config arms itself with a pair of ER PPCs for long-range combat while carrying a suite of pulse lasers for close combat. The addition of a Guardian ECM Suite and Jump Jets would make this mech particularly at home in cities or as a bodyguard to sniper elements of its Level II, where it can contribute as both a sniper and as a bodyguard.

Eminus (E) – A configuration that works best as a long-range sniper, the Eminus is armed with twin ER PPCs, an ER Large Laser, a Light PPC, and two ER Small Lasers, all linked to a Targeting Computer. This configuration has some heat issues, and usually needs to alternate using its ER Large Laser with its Light PPC from turn to turn to keep its heat under control. With the Targeting Computer and the bevy of long-range guns, it works best staying far back and sniping away, preferably with the aid of some C3i links.

Caelestis (S) – Like most other Caelestis configs, this is an oddball configuration featuring experimental equipment. In this case, it combines arm-mounted clan-tech ER Small Lasers and Thunderbolt-10 with torso-mounted Binary Laser Cannons, with a pair of Clan-tech ER Medium Lasers mounted in the center torso and a pair of ER Flamers in the head. A heat hog, this config has issues trying to fire more than half of its weapons, and to be honest, it’s not particularly effective at anything. Like other Caelestis configs, it seems to function primarily as a test-bed for experimental gear.

Guardian – Berith’s personalized Archangel, the Guardian is very similar to the Infernus configuration. In fact, the only difference between the two configurations is that Berith traded out the CT Snub-Nose PPC and a heat sink for a Medium VSPL as well as capacitors on the light and heavy PPCs. The addition of capacitors makes heat juggling more difficult, but at range it can easily keep up a staggered barrage of capacitor-powered PPC blasts.

To use an Archangel, ideally it would have a C3i network to support it, regardless of which role it is assuming. Most configurations of the Archangel is perfectly capable of serving as either pointman/spotter or sniper/anchor for its team, with its ridiculous durability presenting its opponents with the unpleasant choice of trying to kill it (and take a long while doing so while its teammates pound on you) or to ignore it (and risk it pounding on you on its own).

Fighting against an Archangel… is an unpleasant proposition. Barring a lucky headshot chances are you would need to core the Archangel before it finally dies. The combination of compact engine and gyro makes attempting to crit it out of the fight a difficult proposition, and as such, the most efficient way might be to just crush it with brute force, or to bring out as many headcapping weapons as you can and hope for a headshot.


Note: It's a little early because I might not be able to get online tomorrow. Also, this is my first try at MoTWs, so any comments and critiques would be much appreciated.

Zureal

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Re: 'Mech of the Week, 27/4/2012: C-ANG-O Archangel
« Reply #1 on: 25 April 2012, 21:05:15 »
u forgot one thing.... its totaly AWSOME good looks! its a deame sexy beast. deff my fave celestial

Kojak

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Re: 'Mech of the Week, 27/4/2012: C-ANG-O Archangel
« Reply #2 on: 25 April 2012, 22:16:57 »
Of these, the A and D variants are clearly the best. The E is useful but require some finesse, as the article mentions. The C has grown on me over time; the combo of the MRMs and C3, plus very likely an elite MD pilot, allow this thing to absolutely shred slow heavies and assaults who can't simply outrun the Archangel.


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daeceg

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Re: 'Mech of the Week, 27/4/2012: C-ANG-O Archangel
« Reply #3 on: 25 April 2012, 22:18:10 »
I remember playing at ChimeraCon in SA when the local Commando introduced us to the Celestials---the hard way!

The Archangel just WILL NOT DIE---that annoyance factor alone makes it fun to take.  I actually use it in a 'tiered' approach, since all the Celestials are 'borged' up.  Send in the lighter, speedy things to spot and then use the Archie as a mobile strong-point that advances just behind. 

Fallen_Raven

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Re: 'Mech of the Week, 27/4/2012: C-ANG-O Archangel
« Reply #4 on: 25 April 2012, 23:12:36 »
One thing I've noticed is that all of the center line weapons become very limited if the Archangel loses a leg. So if you manage to kick a leg off (or shoot one off with called shots I guess) you can neutralize a good chunk of the firepower and leave it wounded instead of spending the time to finish the beast off. It isn't a fatal flaw, but when you're fighting something this tough you need every edge you can get.
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Alex Keller

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Re: 'Mech of the Week, 27/4/2012: C-ANG-O Archangel
« Reply #5 on: 25 April 2012, 23:48:37 »
Oh man! So glad to see a MotW on a Celestial.  I really enjoyed it!

Zureal

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Re: 'Mech of the Week, 27/4/2012: C-ANG-O Archangel
« Reply #6 on: 25 April 2012, 23:59:06 »
One thing I've noticed is that all of the center line weapons become very limited if the Archangel loses a leg. So if you manage to kick a leg off (or shoot one off with called shots I guess) you can neutralize a good chunk of the firepower and leave it wounded instead of spending the time to finish the beast off. It isn't a fatal flaw, but when you're fighting something this tough you need every edge you can get.

pfft, u make it sound sooooo easy XD

Ghostbear_Gurdel

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Re: 'Mech of the Week, 27/4/2012: C-ANG-O Archangel
« Reply #7 on: 26 April 2012, 00:09:39 »
I almost OSKed an Archangel with a backstabbing Firemoth H...then it flipped arms.  #P
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Re: 'Mech of the Week, 27/4/2012: C-ANG-O Archangel
« Reply #8 on: 26 April 2012, 00:34:27 »
The S suffers mostly from obviously being designed with pre-errata blazers in mind, just like the other Celestials that use them.
IF you switch the heat/damage back around, it would actually be quite scary.

sandstorm

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Re: 'Mech of the Week, 27/4/2012: C-ANG-O Archangel
« Reply #9 on: 26 April 2012, 02:11:31 »
Hmm, would 'patter of hailstones' tactic still be worth it against MD-Celestials? Ie. trying to go for pilot knockout via plenty of light headhits?

Something fast, reasonably armored and with LB20X or MRM40's and hoping for plenty of headclusters?
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Isanova

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Re: 'Mech of the Week, 27/4/2012: C-ANG-O Archangel
« Reply #10 on: 26 April 2012, 02:18:05 »
I love a cannon omni design that can manage to mount an SRM-28 in the Center Torso... AND still have enough remaining throw-weight to make it a useful, realistic design!  :D

Nice write-up, though for some reason all this talk about durability makes me envision an Atlas sitting on top of it, legs around it's shoulders, trying to crack open the Archangel with a big rock :P
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Demos

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Re: 'Mech of the Week, 27/4/2012: C-ANG-O Archangel
« Reply #11 on: 26 April 2012, 03:09:40 »
Archangel rocks!
Thanks for the article.
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peter crowley

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Re: 'Mech of the Week, 27/4/2012: C-ANG-O Archangel
« Reply #12 on: 26 April 2012, 07:14:19 »
Hmm, would 'patter of hailstones' tactic still be worth it against MD-Celestials? Ie. trying to go for pilot knockout via plenty of light headhits?

Something fast, reasonably armored and with LB20X or MRM40's and hoping for plenty of headclusters?

Problem with that is that one of the cheaper cyber mods allows mani domini to ignore most pilot damage including head hits.

Iron Mongoose

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Re: 'Mech of the Week, 27/4/2012: C-ANG-O Archangel
« Reply #13 on: 26 April 2012, 07:53:06 »
Nice article.  Good recomendations on usage and tactics, which I like to see, and a very comprehensive run down of the known veriants.  The only thing that really lets it down is that no one's done the other five Celestials in a while, and you can hardly be blamed for that.  I for my part would be happy to see more like it.

As far as the mech, I agree that it is an intresting and unique mech, being one of only a very few mechs that tries to spend a lot of its tonnage not on weapons, but on durability.  Thouse compact components could have been guns, after all, and when one looks at some of the experiances players have shared there is a thought that perhaps they should have been.  Going that route, especaly with a flagship mech, is a bit daring.

The key problem it has is that, unlike hardened armor or a few other techs, the compact components protect it against crits but don't increese the amount of over all damage it can absorb.  Despite their vulnerable XL engines, mechs like the Devistator and Thunder Hawk are still equaly as well armored as the Archangel, so untill the first hundred or so damage gets dealt they're basicly on par.  Given that a high end XL assualt can easily surpass even the better Archangel veriants for power, and especaly power at range, they're more likely to peel that armor off first.

The Archangel's key counter tactic for this is to rely on accuracy.  Many veriants mount TCs, and between them, the C3i, and their hyper elite MD pilots, they can be sure of connecting very very often and making called shots fairly often.  The MRM veriant offers a key exception, perhaps, but its still very dependant on C3 spotting (or on being very close to its enemy as the spotter itself). 

Which brings up the point of range.  Very few can fight at properly long range.  The E has two TCed ER PPCs, which isn't bad, but it still wants to be at 18 hexes to bring its ER LL and LPPC into play, and its the longest ranged one of the lot.  Its an odd choice for a very slow mech with access to C3, especaly for a high end flagship mech.
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wantec

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Re: 'Mech of the Week, 27/4/2012: C-ANG-O Archangel
« Reply #14 on: 26 April 2012, 08:41:44 »
Oh man! So glad to see a MotW on a Celestial.  I really enjoyed it!
Well before the last boards crash we did have articles on the Celestials. In fact I wrote the one for the Archangel, here's what I've got (only my original article, not all the comments).

Quote from: Wantec, from the old boards
Mech of the Week: Archangel C-ANG-O-*

Well now that we've finally gotten the time, it's time to bring in the Celestials for their own individual MotW articles. We've already had articles on the Preta (by Kojak) and the Seraph (by Maelwys) Today's edition brings you the biggest, baddest of the series, the Archangel!!!

Like all of the Celestial series 'Mechs, this one takes its name from the name of a class of angels. The term "Archangel" means "head angel" or "chief angel" and as such, Archangels are reserved for command Level IIs and unit commanders.

I don't know if you knew this or not (I didn't until recently), but the Archangel is the only 100-ton Inner Sphere Omni, and after the Dire Wolf/Daishi, only the 2nd 100-ton Omni in a TRO. (Props go out to the first person to mention the 3rd 100-ton Omni mentioned in canon).

The Archangel was the first 'Mech to introduce us to the potential of combining a 300-rated compact engine and gyro. The combination of the two cuts in half the crits needed in the center torso, leaving a total of 7 crits free in the 'Mech's centerline. While saving crits, these two compact technologies each weight 50% more than their standard version, so designer Dr. Devon Cortlan, a.k.a. Precentor Vapula, used Endo Steel to free up extra tonnage. Like many other Word of Blake designs, a small cockpit is used to save tonnage and space. In order to maximize protection, this 'Mech carries the maximum armor for it's size, 307 points.

Since the Archangel was designed for use with the Manei Domini forces who prefer the smaller space and frequently use the Vehicular Direct Neural Interface (VDNI) implant to connect directly to the 'Mechs controls, the few drawbacks of using a small cockpit aren't a concern. The base chassis uses 12 double heat sinks, all of which fit in the engine, and all of the known variants make use of those heat sinks. Lastly, as a Word of Blake 'Mech, a C3i system is hard-wired to the base chassis, carried in the center torso.

Overall, this is a great 'Mech design. The combination of the compact engine, compact gyro, and maximum armor means that the Archangel, at least in its base chassis, has claimed the title of "Zombie 'Mech". While 3/5 isn't impressive speed, it is acceptable for a 100-ton assault 'Mech. And even though 36 tons and 37 crits (up to 41 crits by removing actuators) isn't a whole lot of pod space, but given the zombie capabilities of this 'Mech it can last long enough to make the limited weapons deadly.

The Invictus (Prime) variant was likely designed to instill fear and terror in enemy troops and civilians. In addition to the heavy-hitting power of a Heavy PPC in one arm, the Invictus variant uses a Retractable Blade in the other arm and a Plasma Rifle in the head. A targeting computer increases a Manei Domini's already deadly accuracy, and jump jets and a Guardian ECM add to the 'Mech's mobility and electronic defenses.
My rating: 6/10, The combo of jump jets, Heavy PPC, Plasma Rifle, and targeting computer is good, but so many tons were spent on a the Retractable Blade that isn't as useful without using rules from TacOps.

How I would improve it:
Well, like many people have suggested, remove the Retractable Blade. Then I would add a Small Pulse Laser and Beagle to increase those infantry-swatting abilities and deter any would-be hidden units. Adding the laser increase the targeting computer size by 1 ton and 1 crit, and lastly I would add 2 more heat sinks to cover the heat load.

The Dominus (A) variant is the first of many zombie variants of the Archangel, and the heavy-hitter of the group. It carries a Heavy PPC in each arm, a pair of ER Medium Lasers in the center torso, and a Snub-nose PPC in the head. The rest of the pod space is devoted to 20 double heat sinks, which perform moderately-well at handling the heat burden.
My rating: 8/10, carrying two head-cappers and nothing that explodes, the ER Medium Lasers seem wasted

How I would improve it:
There's not an easy way to improve this one. My first instinct is to trade one of the ER Medium Lasers for an extra heat sink, allowing it to fire the PPCs and run every turn with no heat. The other ER Medium Laser is a toss up.

The Infernus (B) variant is very similar to the Dominus variant, trading the 2nd Heavy PPC and ER Medium Lasers of the Dominus for a pair of Light PPCs and a second Snub-nose PPC. It is best at close ranges, where the Snub-nose PPCs max their damage and their short range bracket. The loss of the second head capper sucks, but having a second Snub-nose PPC in the center of the 'Mech is useful if the 'Mech has lost both side torsos.
My rating: 7/10, losing the 2nd head capper makes it less scary, especially when the overall damage output goes down.

How I would improve it:
Replace one of the Light PPCs with a double heat sink and a pair of Medium Lasers (standard or ER, your choice). This gives it the ability to run and fire all the PPCs for no heat and bumps the max damage output back up to match that of the Dominus.

The Comminus (C) variant is the only one to carry ammo or a weapon that explodes. However, it risks ammo explosions in order to carry a massive MRM 40 in each arm, with 12 shots per launcher carried in side torso, along with CASE. Backing up the big missile racks are a pair of ER Medium Lasers and an ER Small Laser. Depending on what weapons you fire, this variant is either over-sinked or under-sinked, with only 15 double heat sinks.
My rating: 6/10, Slow and carrying shorter-ranged weapons, and only a few back-up weapons, this 'Mech depends on shredding enemies with its missiles.

How I would improve it:
Well step one would be removing the MRM racks, since I personally dislike MRMs, but since that's kinda the point of the variant I'll avoid that. What we can do to is replace the MRM 40s with a pair of MRM 30s and two tons of ammo each. This saves us 4 tons. Then I would replace the ER Medium Lasers with a pair of Light PPCs, one in each arm. By using smaller missile racks you avoid some of the heat issues with the current version and give you a little longer reach.

The Luminos (D) variant brings out the long range guns, with an ER PPC in each arm. Four Medium Pulse Lasers and jump jets help out in case anyone tried to get close or behind you. A total of 17 double heat sinks means that bracketfire is the word of the day. A Small Pulse Laser, ER Small Laser, and Guardian ECM round out this version.
My rating: 7/10, Not stellar, but this is a well-designed variant. The ER PPCs let you fight at range, but up close is where you want to be.

How I would improve it:
There's not much I would do to improve it. If I felt inclined to change it, I would drop the ECM, ER Small Laser, and two of the Medium Pulse Lasers for 2 double heat sinks and 4 standard Medium Lasers. This increases your Medium Laser punch from 24 to 36 damage.

The Eminus (E) variant is the sniper of the group. Not only does it have the dual ER PPCs of the Luminos, but it adds an ER Large Laser, a Light PPC, and a targeting computer. A pair of ER Small Lasers and 19 double heat sinks wrap up this variant.  There's enough heat sinks for the ER PPCs, but not enough to add the ER Large Laser every turn.
My rating: 8/10, a good sniper, but the damage output is limited at all ranges.

How I would improve it:
Remove the ER Large Laser, since the Inner Sphere version really isn't a sniper's weapon, and remove the ER Small Lasers. Then add 5 standard Medium Lasers and a Small Pulse Laser. The Small Pulse is there for anti-infantry work, and at close ranges you can trade the 10-damage of an ER PPC for the 25-damage shot of the 5 Medium Lasers. (It's a tactic we've used in our MegaMek Merc campaign and it works well).

The Archangel Berith is the personal variant of Spector Precentor Omicron Berith, the ascended Manei Domini commander of the Opacus Venatori. It is also the first variant to break out the TacOps, experimental equipment. The variant is apparently based off of the Infernus variant, both carrying a Heavy PPC in one arm, two Light PPCs in the other, and a Snub-nose PPC in the head. Where it differs is that the arm mounted PPCs each carry a PPC capacitor, which can increase the damage of the PPC shot by 5 points and the heat generated by 5 points. It takes one turn to charge a capacitor (the PPC cannot fire that turn), but turning a 15-point shot into a 20 pointer, or a pair of 5s into a pair of 10s is worth it. The last piece of next tech is a Medium Variable-Speed Pulse Laser, mounted in the center torso.
My rating: 9/10, a good mid-range brawler, it is still quite dangerous after taking heavy damage.

How I would improve it:
Add the pilot who it's designed for. Precentor Berith has a special implant that lets him automatically pass shutdown rolls. The 'Mech still overheats, but being able to push the heat scale up into the red with little worry of shutdown is nice. The only other possible changes would be like the ones I listed for the Infernus variant.

The Caelestis variant is the second variant to use TacOps experimental tech, and it is the first to use Clan-tech, although not very much of it. Each side torso carries the new-yet-old Binary Laser Cannon, giving it dual head-cappers out to medium range. A Thunderbolt 10 plus two Clan ER Medium Lasers provide more medium-range firepower, but the Thunderbolt only carries 1 ton of ammo (without CASE), a meansly 6 shots. Rounding out the 'Mech is a pair of Clan ER Small Lasers, a pair of ER Flamers, and 17 double heat sinks. The number of heat sinks means that your firing choices are limited to (a) both binary lasers, (b) 1 binary laser, 2 Clan ER Medium Lasers, and the Thunderbolt, or (c) everything except the binary lasers. Considering the fact that everything falls into the medium or short range brackets, there's few reasons to fire any of the other weapons besides the binary lasers.
My rating: 6/10, Slow speed and no long range weapons is one of my pet peeves, plus un-CASEd ammo is another annoyance.

How I would improve it:
Well, step one I would remove the Thunderbolt and ammo for an ER PPC and a standard Medium Laser. Then I would possibly swap the Clan ER Small Lasers for a second standard Medium Laser. This gives you back the zombie factor of no exploding stuff and the ER PPC gives you a sniping weapon while you close.

Notable Pilot: Spector Precentor Omicron Berith
Commander of the Elite Opacus Venatori, ascended Manei Domini, and Terra-born. His original name was Benjamin Emory. His first battlefield experience was on Tukayyid. While he was not sold on either Comstar's new secular self, or the teachings of the Word of Blake, he defected to the Word of Blake to remain loyal to Terra and help protect it. A skilled 'MechWarrior, his skills match that of an elite Clan 'MechWarrior, before adding the benefits of his cybernetic implants.
BEN ROME YOU MAGNIFICENT BASTARD, I READ YOUR BOOK!


Alex Keller

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Re: 'Mech of the Week, 27/4/2012: C-ANG-O Archangel
« Reply #15 on: 26 April 2012, 10:47:54 »
Thanks, Wantec. 

I've only used the Archangel a couple times.  The first time was with the Invictus variant (Berith pilot) and I found the design lacking in firepower.  The second time was with the Guardian variant and I found it much more useful.  I probably could have pushed the heat more, but I was fighting on the bottom of an erupting volcano and I needed to make sure Berith could still move around.  I really do like this 'mech. 

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Re: 'Mech of the Week, 27/4/2012: C-ANG-O Archangel
« Reply #16 on: 26 April 2012, 11:44:28 »
It is one of my prefered celestials. It is odd but it can receive a lot of damage.. and bring a lot of firepower. It is far better than the Seraph (that costs more BV) and it is a different way to design an assault mech... a resilient unit instead of a XL one.

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Re: 'Mech of the Week, 27/4/2012: C-ANG-O Archangel
« Reply #17 on: 26 April 2012, 13:20:20 »
I am not really sold on the concept, other than as a commander's ride. This would be the mech that gets ignored in favor of designs that are more fragile and have more firepower. So, sure it will survive a long time, but it would probably do it at the expense of the rest of its level 2.



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Re: 'Mech of the Week, 27/4/2012: C-ANG-O Archangel
« Reply #18 on: 26 April 2012, 13:21:06 »
I'd like to add that this is a great command 'Mech.  When you've got a commander with Initiative Bonuses as well as other special abilities, it's great to be able to keep him in the fight.

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Re: 'Mech of the Week, 27/4/2012: C-ANG-O Archangel
« Reply #19 on: 26 April 2012, 13:25:53 »
I am not really sold on the concept, other than as a commander's ride. This would be the mech that gets ignored in favor of designs that are more fragile and have more firepower. So, sure it will survive a long time, but it would probably do it at the expense of the rest of its level 2.

Considering the long term conflicts of the Jihad, I'd say that having a high durability ride could be a good thing in spite of the limited firepower. Having a 'mech that could survive most short engagements, has little ammo to worry about (in most configurations anyway) and can continue fighting despite of damage it has taken, all adds up to a great choice for a campaign.
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Re: 'Mech of the Week, 27/4/2012: C-ANG-O Archangel
« Reply #20 on: 26 April 2012, 16:58:44 »
It is well protected from 'golden BBs', but if no critical hits are scored it is not much more durable than a classic Atlas, 12 points to the head still stops it cold, and the structure is the same strength, the armor nearly so.  If the enemy is prepared to pound it to scrap metal the hard way, it will take the same firepower any well armored SFE 100 ton mech can.

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Re: 'Mech of the Week, 27/4/2012: C-ANG-O Archangel
« Reply #21 on: 26 April 2012, 17:34:41 »
Here's a question: Archangel vs Osteon, any canon configs, equal pilots, no outside teammates. Where does your money fall?
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Re: 'Mech of the Week, 27/4/2012: C-ANG-O Archangel
« Reply #22 on: 26 April 2012, 17:56:47 »
This is probably my 2nd favorite Celestial, behind the Preta.

I question the Small Cockpit & Compact Engine but over all this one is a beast.


I regards to usage,  I see this one as the "Middle" rank of a C3 Net, the mostly medium ranged energy configs with lots of ECM means I run it forward while keeping the Heavies further out at a walk.

Using 1 of each model I would send in the Light & Medium as spotters, keep this beast in the middle, & leave the other 3 gunboats back out at long range.
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Re: 'Mech of the Week, 27/4/2012: C-ANG-O Archangel
« Reply #23 on: 26 April 2012, 18:21:16 »
Re: Archangel vs Osteon

iATMs are so nasty that it is not even remotely a fair fight IMO. Taking the Osteon Prime, the damage goes from 36 @27 hexes to 108 @9, no canon Archangel config can match that.
The hard truth is that Osteon has the Archangel outclassed in durability and firepower, and electronics, which is hardly surprising since the Osteon is the ultimate machine as far as Clantech goes  :o
I'd say the Archangel might win 1 in 4, if that.

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Re: 'Mech of the Week, 27/4/2012: C-ANG-O Archangel
« Reply #24 on: 26 April 2012, 18:32:05 »
Here's a question: Archangel vs Osteon, any canon configs, equal pilots, no outside teammates. Where does your money fall?

I would bet on Osteon Prime, C and D against any Archangel. Probably B and Jaguar also. Osteon U would clearly win any underwater fight, but would most likely loose on land. Osteon E and F are probably the ones that the Archangel has best chances against. I am too unfamiliar with the rules for Osteon A and G to evaluate their effectiveness.

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Re: 'Mech of the Week, 27/4/2012: C-ANG-O Archangel
« Reply #25 on: 26 April 2012, 18:58:00 »
I'm not up to speed on the celestials so this helpful.

I don't think this thing has alot of chance against an Osteon on paper but I am going out on a limb and say the MD driving might make the difference in a canon fight.


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Re: 'Mech of the Week, 27/4/2012: C-ANG-O Archangel
« Reply #26 on: 26 April 2012, 19:31:23 »
IMHO, comparing any of the celestial mechs against clan mechs isn't really a fair comparison. They are pretty clearly made with the C3i Network in mind, and work best as part of a team. That said, the Archangel is probably the ideal commander's ride for MDs due to how hard it is to kill it and its (relative) lack of threat. Also, if someone ignores an Archangel, the easiest way to solve that is to just use it to spot. Let's see if anyone dares ignore it now. ;)

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Re: 'Mech of the Week, 27/4/2012: C-ANG-O Archangel
« Reply #27 on: 26 April 2012, 20:28:32 »
IMHO, comparing any of the celestial mechs against clan mechs isn't really a fair comparison. They are pretty clearly made with the C3i Network in mind, and work best as part of a team. That said, the Archangel is probably the ideal commander's ride for MDs due to how hard it is to kill it and its (relative) lack of threat. Also, if someone ignores an Archangel, the easiest way to solve that is to just use it to spot. Let's see if anyone dares ignore it now. ;)
With most Clan mechs I'd agree, but not with the three Society Omnis, they're made to work together (although the Septicemia/Pariah can operate on its own better).

I would bet on Osteon Prime, C and D against any Archangel. Probably B and Jaguar also. Osteon U would clearly win any underwater fight, but would most likely loose on land. Osteon E and F are probably the ones that the Archangel has best chances against. I am too unfamiliar with the rules for Osteon A and G to evaluate their effectiveness.

I agree on the Prime, C, & D. The B can definitely take on an Archangel, the ERLLs can out range an Archangel and if the Archangel starts to get close you can switch to the Heavies and then the Vibroblade if you get close enough. I'm not sure why you think the E will be easier to beat, an ERLL, twin HAG20s and a TC will give an Archangel a very bad time. The only thing the Archangel has in its favor is hoping the E runs out of ammo before it runs out of armor. Same for the F, except I think it will have a little easier time than the E, the 15-point holes from the Gauss, plus the potential head capping give it an edge.
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Re: 'Mech of the Week, 27/4/2012: C-ANG-O Archangel
« Reply #28 on: 26 April 2012, 21:28:15 »
What really sucks is that such a visually attractive unit is really only used in one short era, and any use outside of that is likely to get the pilot killed by everything the other side has because of sheer history alone. At least that would be the case in any non single shot game. i wonder how much of that ingrained attitude might carry over into such single shot games anyhow?

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Re: 'Mech of the Week, 27/4/2012: C-ANG-O Archangel
« Reply #29 on: 27 April 2012, 00:27:32 »
I'm not sure why you think the E will be easier to beat, an ERLL, twin HAG20s and a TC will give an Archangel a very bad time. The only thing the Archangel has in its favor is hoping the E runs out of ammo before it runs out of armor. Same for the F, except I think it will have a little easier time than the E, the 15-point holes from the Gauss, plus the potential head capping give it an edge.

Well, neither the E and F does really impress in firepower. Especially the E since the HAGs can not be used for aimed shots and does sandpaper, making them less than ideal weapons against an Archangel. (I just noticed that the F has four tons of ammo for the RAC/5 instead of the two that I saw before, so, yes, I would rate it up a bit.)

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Re: 'Mech of the Week, 27/4/2012: C-ANG-O Archangel
« Reply #30 on: 27 April 2012, 08:07:09 »
Well, neither the E and F does really impress in firepower. Especially the E since the HAGs can not be used for aimed shots and does sandpaper, making them less than ideal weapons against an Archangel. (I just noticed that the F has four tons of ammo for the RAC/5 instead of the two that I saw before, so, yes, I would rate it up a bit.)
In the case of tye Archangel, you really have two choices, blow lots of big holes in it fast, or sandpaper it and hope for crits. If it were me piloting the E, I would just blast away for a few turns hoping to concentrate damage in a critical area before turning to called shots with the ERLL. But yes, it has probably the worst chance of any variant.
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Re: 'Mech of the Week, 27/4/2012: C-ANG-O Archangel
« Reply #31 on: 28 April 2012, 05:37:15 »
BTW, have anyone done a more throughout analysis of the themes of the different configurations?
So far I have found that:
- the Invictus configs all use the retractable blade
- the Comminus configs mounts either ECM or BAP.
- the Luminos configs are all zombies, and jumps in five of six cases
- the Eminus configs mounts Thunderbolt launchers in five of six cases, and the last one mounts ERPPCs instead.
I have not found any themes of the Dominus and Infernus configs.

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Re: 'Mech of the Week, 27/4/2012: C-ANG-O Archangel
« Reply #32 on: 28 April 2012, 08:57:41 »
I might be wrong, but I believe all the Infernus ones were meant to be heat-dealers, or at least energy boats. You can start fires with PPCs, after all...
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Re: 'Mech of the Week, 27/4/2012: C-ANG-O Archangel
« Reply #33 on: 28 April 2012, 09:36:22 »
I might be wrong, but I believe all the Infernus ones were meant to be heat-dealers, or at least energy boats. You can start fires with PPCs, after all...

Hmm...
- Malak: Infernus has 2xERML, SnPPC, and ECM - an energy boat. Invictus and Dominus mounts flamers.
- Preta: Infernus has HPPC and ERML, Comminus has a plasma rifle.
- Grigori: Infernus with 2xMML7 and a plasma rifle.
- Deva: Infernus is an energy boat with ECM and targeting computer. Dominus can use infernos in its MML7.
- Seraph: Infernus mounts an LB 20-X. Dominus and Comminus has plasma rifles.
- Archangel: Infernus is an energy boat. Invictus has the plasma rifle.

Not really convinced.
On the other hand, most of the Infernus variants are reasonably cool running, except the Seraph. Maybe they are intended to be used in high-heat conditions instead? At least the name is about hell, but was it just picked to sound cool or not?

I tried out the names Google Translate, and it confirms that Eminus is supposed to be a long-range config, and also says that Comminus the opposite (MRMs, UAC20, pulse lasers, ERSLs sounds right). Luminos is also about light, which sounds right for an energy boat.
The translation for invictus (invincible) and dominus (lord/master) does not help. Unless dominus is supposed to be a garrison config?





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Re: 'Mech of the Week, 27/4/2012: C-ANG-O Archangel
« Reply #34 on: 28 April 2012, 09:56:17 »
Like I said, I could be wrong.

I like the high-heat conditions theory. Given at least one S-D is known for starting massive fires, being willing to fight amongst those fires while everyone else would be trying to get away from them would be a powerful psychological tool. Also handy if you expect to fight a lot of battle armor or vehicles, as you could call down indiscriminate Inferno-IV fire on your position if you got overrun.

Hmm...given that I paint all my S-D stuff on the colors of Uriel's Blinding Fire, maybe I should look into some good Arrow platforms... >:D
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Re: 'Mech of the Week, 27/4/2012: C-ANG-O Archangel
« Reply #35 on: 28 April 2012, 13:11:21 »
Its quite easy really  >:D

Invictus: PR stunts
Dominus: optimized brutes, intended to dominate their niche
Infernus: Invictus done right, kind of a more generalized Dominus
Comminus: brawlers (in your face!)
Luminos: mobile energy boats (light em up!)
Eminus: ranged hole punchers (with a Thunderbolt fetish)

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Re: 'Mech of the Week, 27/4/2012: C-ANG-O Archangel
« Reply #36 on: 28 April 2012, 16:06:48 »
I still would love to see a sort of "Invictus Prime" variant where they ditched the Retractable Blade for something more useful. Sort of a "When looks don't matter as much as destroying the target in the most efficient way possible."

And of course, there's always the "Gestalt" route where the design gains 2.5 tons of pod-space if you swap out the small cockpit and compact gyro for an Interface Cockpit :)

As for the standard Archangel, its a solid command `Mech. Not something I'd necessarily want to duel in, but I'd have no problems sticking a commander in and using him to support a Level II, and the Level II to support him.

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Re: 'Mech of the Week, 27/4/2012: C-ANG-O Archangel
« Reply #37 on: 28 April 2012, 18:17:10 »
The Archangel, like the most of the Celestials, requires too much in the way of BV to make this concept viable if you're utilizing that system of balance. A 4/4 pilot is minimal, although MD pilots are generally Veteran or Elite quality. Immediately, you're stuck with a BV hike and a very short-ranged design when compared to most of what's coming out of the Inner Sphere during this era. Compare this to the Viking, Archer, etc. and you'll see what I mean.

Let's not forget that if your range relies on a C3i network, you're boosting BV again. So you have an over-BVed unit with pitiful firepower and an over-BVed network ensuring that 3025-era damage levels get inflicted?  :-\ I think I'll pass.

Aside from the cosmetic appearance of the unit, the base chassis doesn't have much going for it. The configurations seem to have been made with the idea of "let's jam as much Blake-flavored tech on here as possible" rather than "how can we make this effective on the field?" At some point, the WoB would probably notice how stupid most of the configs are and change them. Hell, the first-generation Omnis coming out of the Combine were superior to this waste of space.

All-in-all, the chassis provides interesting possibilities which are entirely unexplored due to fluff limitations. What's left is a unit which leaves me to question just how the Shadow Divisions gained any sort of feared reputation whatsoever.
« Last Edit: 28 April 2012, 18:24:57 by TigerShark »
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Re: 'Mech of the Week, 27/4/2012: C-ANG-O Archangel
« Reply #38 on: 28 April 2012, 18:23:27 »
Several things.

1) Manei Domini pilots
2) LRM boats could pick it apart on a salt flat, maybe.  Good luck find terrain that hideously flat.
3) The only time this thing will ever fight anything solo is.... well, never.  That's pretty much the whole point of the Celestials.
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Re: 'Mech of the Week, 27/4/2012: C-ANG-O Archangel
« Reply #39 on: 28 April 2012, 18:26:38 »
Several things.

1) Manei Domini pilots
2) LRM boats could pick it apart on a salt flat, maybe.  Good luck find terrain that hideously flat.
3) The only time this thing will ever fight anything solo is.... well, never.  That's pretty much the whole point of the Celestials.

1) BV hike for no appreciable gain and a +1 penalty to PSRs, making them 3/5 for the BV of a 3/4.
2) You're right. Mountainous terrain is TERRIBLE for IDF-based units.  ::)
3) Like I said, the C3i network will cost it quite a bit and it's not doing much damage at range anyhow.

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Re: 'Mech of the Week, 27/4/2012: C-ANG-O Archangel
« Reply #40 on: 28 April 2012, 18:34:28 »
Meh.  If you're intent on looking at this unit in only the worst possible, least likely circumstances it will ever encounter, more power to you.
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Re: 'Mech of the Week, 27/4/2012: C-ANG-O Archangel
« Reply #41 on: 28 April 2012, 18:43:35 »
Alright, folks, settle down and be polite in here.

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Re: 'Mech of the Week, 27/4/2012: C-ANG-O Archangel
« Reply #42 on: 28 April 2012, 20:04:59 »
1) BV hike for no appreciable gain and a +1 penalty to PSRs, making them 3/5 for the BV of a 3/4.
2) You're right. Mountainous terrain is TERRIBLE for IDF-based units.  ::)
3) Like I said, the C3i network will cost it quite a bit and it's not doing much damage at range anyhow.

Which offers a different take on the traditional role of the assault as the firesupport platform of a C3 net.

Jam this mech into the enemy's face, and dare them to take you down.  If they don't have a still active ECM (and killing enemy ECM with extreme prejudice should be a priority for any C3 net) good luck taking it down in time to do you any good.  True you need someone to hold the line till the Archangel could get there, but OTOH grinding it forward while setting up the ECM free zone is perfectly valid.

And frankly BV costs are metagaming.  BV is supposed to measure roughly the effectiveness of a unit, so higher BV ususally rates as a better mech.  You can argue that the BV is inflated for what you get, but high BV as criticism in and of itself I find specious.

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Re: 'Mech of the Week, 27/4/2012: C-ANG-O Archangel
« Reply #43 on: 28 April 2012, 20:10:43 »
Except for two games I used the Archangel in and fought against I have learned two things, the Archangel is a monster, capable of taking massive amounts of damage and surviving, even if it does need cleats to stay up on Ice. Thats from the game I fought against it. The game I used one I learned the Dominus version to be a true killer, it not only killed a Pillager by itself, but helped bring down a Warhammer and a Urbanmech for good measure and aided the rest of its unit with its C3i when it finally lost its leg to a lucky crit. It needs to be killed, killed dead to stop its effect on a battlefield and while its opponents are doing that, there not firing at the Archangels supporting units.
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Re: 'Mech of the Week, 27/4/2012: C-ANG-O Archangel
« Reply #44 on: 29 April 2012, 17:35:42 »
Blakist stuff is as costly and so high in BV because they weren't intended to be normal stuff but rather "final boss" like deals in a campaign since how good most of their stuff is when applied correctly

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Re: 'Mech of the Week, 27/4/2012: C-ANG-O Archangel
« Reply #45 on: 30 April 2012, 07:59:47 »
I haven't really played with the Celestials, but it seems to me that the ideal role for the Archangel would be to hold the middle so to speak rather than as a command unit. A lot of it configs seem to work best at medium range and it it can soak up tons of damage. I'd use it a screen to keep the opposition away from the snipers/long-range fire support (Deva/Grigori) and give the opposition something else to shoot at besides the more mobile spotters.

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Re: 'Mech of the Week, 27/4/2012: C-ANG-O Archangel
« Reply #46 on: 30 April 2012, 22:44:41 »
The Archangel, like the most of the Celestials, requires too much in the way of BV to make this concept viable if you're utilizing that system of balance. A 4/4 pilot is minimal, although MD pilots are generally Veteran or Elite quality. Immediately, you're stuck with a BV hike and a very short-ranged design when compared to most of what's coming out of the Inner Sphere during this era. Compare this to the Viking, Archer, etc. and you'll see what I mean.

Let's not forget that if your range relies on a C3i network, you're boosting BV again. So you have an over-BVed unit with pitiful firepower and an over-BVed network ensuring that 3025-era damage levels get inflicted?  :-\ I think I'll pass.

Aside from the cosmetic appearance of the unit, the base chassis doesn't have much going for it. The configurations seem to have been made with the idea of "let's jam as much Blake-flavored tech on here as possible" rather than "how can we make this effective on the field?" At some point, the WoB would probably notice how stupid most of the configs are and change them. Hell, the first-generation Omnis coming out of the Combine were superior to this waste of space.

All-in-all, the chassis provides interesting possibilities which are entirely unexplored due to fluff limitations. What's left is a unit which leaves me to question just how the Shadow Divisions gained any sort of feared reputation whatsoever.

From Personal Experience:

I happen to play in a Mekwars server set in the Jihad Era, and one of the playable factions were naturally the wobbies. I played as part of the Shadow Divisions, with the server settings giving you 3/4 pilots by default and getting celestials in well over 50% of your mech pulls. The server balances by BV2.

Needless to say, I was ALWAYS out-massed, ALWAYS out-gunned, ALWAYS outnumbered (unless I happen to fight a clanner). And I still manage to win over 60% of my games.

Sure, C3i, Leveled pilots, and the inherent high BV of the mech itself hikes your BV WAY up there, and for someone not used to them, would be far more a burden than any help, but if you know what you're doing? You can usually take on a force of 3067-3075 Era mechs with 4/5 pilots in them (or clan-tech machines with 3/4 pilots in them) and expect at least an even chance of victory, despite the disadvantages.

Also, do NOT underestimate Manei Domini pilots, especially ones with VDNI/BDVNI. The ability to HALVE your own and your target's movement modifiers makes them insanely accurate, perhaps moreso than what the BV hike would make you think.

That said, The Archangel does its best as a commander's ride, since it not only gives a high-priority target an absurdly durable ride, but the seeming lack of firepower also makes that commander seem less threatening to the other guy.

Welshman

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Re: 'Mech of the Week, 27/4/2012: C-ANG-O Archangel
« Reply #47 on: 01 May 2012, 15:41:31 »
Can we get the MUL reference put into the article. Helpful for newer players.
-Joel BC-
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wantec

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Re: 'Mech of the Week, 27/4/2012: C-ANG-O Archangel
« Reply #48 on: 02 May 2012, 10:17:27 »
Speaking of the MUL, any reason why the Cephalus and Osteon don't have images for their MUL entries?
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Diplominator

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Re: 'Mech of the Week, 27/4/2012: C-ANG-O Archangel
« Reply #49 on: 02 May 2012, 11:41:01 »
Speaking of the MUL, any reason why the Cephalus and Osteon don't have images for their MUL entries?

The Cephalus has its Chameleon LPS on and the Osteon is...I dunno, standing behind it? Would that work?

Welshman

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Re: 'Mech of the Week, 27/4/2012: C-ANG-O Archangel
« Reply #50 on: 02 May 2012, 11:49:40 »
Speaking of the MUL, any reason why the Cephalus and Osteon don't have images for their MUL entries?

Toss an errata report in the MUL thread.
-Joel BC-
Catalyst Freelancer (Inactive)

"Some closets will never contain Narnia, no matter how many times we open the door." - Weirdo, in relation to the power of hope.

Prince of Darkness

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Re: 'Mech of the Week, 27/4/2012: C-ANG-O Archangel
« Reply #51 on: 02 May 2012, 12:00:56 »
1) BV hike for no appreciable gain and a +1 penalty to PSRs, making them 3/5 for the BV of a 3/4.
2) You're right. Mountainous terrain is TERRIBLE for IDF-based units.  ::)
3) Like I said, the C3i network will cost it quite a bit and it's not doing much damage at range anyhow.

There is no +1 - all MD Battlemech pilots rolled for automatically gain the Pain Shunt and VDNI, negating damage from ammo explosions and the +1 to PSR's from the small cockpit.  It only affects them when they are a "custom" MD like Avitue, who lack the interface.

The fact that I see many are not getting is that the Archangel is not to be used singularly and shouldn't be built up to be some "kill-em-all death machine" that we kinda wanted the MD to be.  The entire point of the Archangel is to act as an anchor unit- to find a spot either with good brackets against your opponents, or get close in to where ECM and C3i are giving everyone great to-hits- and stay there.  The compact components and energy weaponry make for a design that is principally outlasting everything on the map, but never meant to be used by itself.  This supports the other idea- that the Archangel is a commander's ride, meant to stay in the fight as long as possible.

This is apparent in the configurations, with only the Dominus and Infernus truly capable of operating alone- and that's a big stretch with how easy it is to outrange it.  Every other variant is built to work in a team with a defined role.
« Last Edit: 02 May 2012, 12:02:49 by Prince of Darkness »
Cowdragon:
I'm going to type up your response, print it, fold it in half, and look at it like a I would a centerfold. THAT's how sexy your answer was.

cold1

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Re: 'Mech of the Week, 27/4/2012: C-ANG-O Archangel
« Reply #52 on: 02 May 2012, 13:30:47 »
Yup and it is very similar to the Osteon in that it is meant to anchor and command a unit not be a singular destroyer.  (Osteon Jaguar excluded)


To the patient go the spoils

Maelwys

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Re: 'Mech of the Week, 27/4/2012: C-ANG-O Archangel
« Reply #53 on: 02 May 2012, 15:43:51 »
Interestingly, if you use the rules for MD from Jihad Secrets (where the MD have generic rules) they don't seem to have a BV modifier. Of course, at that point you're also (theoretically) only able to get a MD pilot on a roll of 8+.

Welshman

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Re: 'Mech of the Week, 27/4/2012: C-ANG-O Archangel
« Reply #54 on: 02 May 2012, 16:39:32 »
Interestingly, if you use the rules for MD from Jihad Secrets (where the MD have generic rules) they don't seem to have a BV modifier. Of course, at that point you're also (theoretically) only able to get a MD pilot on a roll of 8+.

That is because, as Catalyst has always maintained, Manei Domini are not designed for tournament play. They are a campaign plot device. The super evil coming to kill you in the night bad guy.

BV was only created for them because people asked for it, repeatedly.
-Joel BC-
Catalyst Freelancer (Inactive)

"Some closets will never contain Narnia, no matter how many times we open the door." - Weirdo, in relation to the power of hope.