SPA Cramped Cockpit Question

[abou]

I am running a campaign and using all quirks. There will be a Wolverine on the board today, but the Cramped Cockpit has me concerned.

It incurs a +1 to piloting skill rolls. The language is plain, so I assume that it literally applies to everything: physical attacks, falls, etc. Is that how others have interpreted it?

[Daryk]

Yes, that's at least how I do it.

[Charistoph]

Physical Attacks have a base To-Hit Number equal to their attacking unit's Piloting Skill Rating.  Physical attacks are not Piloting Skill Rolls, and as such, Piloting Skill Roll modifiers do not affect physical attacks. (TW pg.144)

That's how we've been running it, and I've been using a Wolverine off and on throughout our local narrative campaign, and we've gotten 2 more since.

[Failure16]

I see the logic in both Daryk's and Charistoph's treatment, but admit that I work under Daryk's paradigm on the logical basis that a small enclosure will affect everything that the user contained in is strait confines has to do.

Buuut...since when did the doughty WVR get a cramped cockpit? I mean, STGs, ASNs, sure.

[Daryk]

I think it was to balance out the Improved Comms and Command 'Mech quirks.

[Failure16]

Since when do Quirks have to be balanced? I mean, semi-officially (that is to say: they are, but there is no official ruling actually saying that?).

[Daryk]

Officially, no, but you're right that they seem to be somewhat balanced unofficially.

[paladin2019]

Since when do Quirks have to be balanced?

They don't. In fact, numerous 'mechs have zero concessions to balancing their quirks. For example, of the twelve or thirteen Macross 'mechs, only the Longbow, Marauder, and Stinger have a negative quirk. If we look at the fourteen originals, we only add the BattleMaster, Locust, and aforementioned Wolverine to 'mechs with negative quirks.

[Charistoph]

If anything, the Wolverine is the biggest demonstration of how imbalanced Quirks can be, as it's only Negative Quirk is its Small Cockpit, while it also carries 6 Positive Quirks, 3-4 of them which might have an impact on the table.

Still, if one is designing a brand new Mech to carry Quirks, it should have that balance between Positive and Negative concept going.

[Failure16]

They don't. In fact, numerous 'mechs have zero concessions to balancing their quirks. For example, of the twelve or thirteen Macross 'mechs, only the Longbow, Marauder, and Stinger have a negative quirk. If we look at the fourteen originals, we only add the BattleMaster, Locust, and aforementioned Wolverine to 'mechs with negative quirks.

So, if they do not have to be balanced--and I am agnostic in this aspect--why would the WVR-series get a Cramped Cockpit Quirk? I have yet to see any technical readout (including TROs 3025, Project Phoenix, and the newest Classics; the chassis gets fairly short shrift in the prose) that would give rise to such a notion. It is what it is, but it seems silly and out-of-place nonetheless.

[Daryk]

Good question, but one I don't think we'll get an answer to... :/

[Failure16]

Eh. It's a mostly rhetorical exercise anyways. Especially when posed in this sub-board. It is irritating to see in a machine that has no need for it, regardless.

[Daryk]

For one of Liam's AUs, I removed the Improved Comms (to support another Wolverine keeping theirs) and got rid of the Cramped Cockpit.

[Charistoph]

For one of Liam's AUs, I removed the Improved Comms (to support another Wolverine keeping theirs) and got rid of the Cramped Cockpit.

Speaking of which, it might be the concept of all the combined Improved Communications package, Command Package, as well as a Medium Laser in the Head MIGHT be justification for it.

[Daryk]

I'd take the down time of a Class B refit to move the Medium out of the head, personally...

[abou]

why would the WVR-series get a Cramped Cockpit Quirk?

My guess would be the medium laser mounted in the head.

Another example would be the Vindicator's difficult ejection due to the medium laser.

[Failure16]

My guess would be the medium laser mounted in the head.

Another example would be the Vindicator's difficult ejection due to the medium laser.

Quirks are driven by fluff. There is no extant fluff of any kind that I am presently aware of that would engender such a Quirk. The question was what the factual basis of such a Quirk is, not a possible reason or rationalization.

The VND's troublesome ejection situation is well known nearly since that machine's inception. Thus, that would be the factual basis. Just as the aforementioned ASN and STG's Cramped Cockpits make complete sense. Or the QKD's Exposed Actuators (or whatever Quirk it has for its ankles). And so on, and so forth.

[RifleMech]

So, if they do not have to be balanced--and I am agnostic in this aspect--why would the WVR-series get a Cramped Cockpit Quirk? I have yet to see any technical readout (including TROs 3025, Project Phoenix, and the newest Classics; the chassis gets fairly short shrift in the prose) that would give rise to such a notion. It is what it is, but it seems silly and out-of-place nonetheless.

This is just a guess but I think that the placement of the turreted medium laser in the Unseen Wolverine blocks the pilot's vision enough that it gives the same penalties as a cramped cockpit. It doesn't apply to the Retconned Wolverine as the medium laser isn't in a turret and is below and to the side of the cockpit. Depending on which Wolverine you're using, feel free to not use that quirk. And if you want to give the Unseen Wolverine the directional turret mount for the medium laser, I'd limit it's range of fire to the forward and right arm hexes as the SRM blocks the turret from aiming to the left and the head blocks the turret aiming to the rear.

[Daryk]

Actual basis is probably an "Ask the Writers" thing... :)

[abou]

Quirks are driven by fluff. There is no extant fluff of any kind that I am presently aware of that would engender such a Quirk. The question was what the factual basis of such a Quirk is, not a possible reason or rationalization.

I can look through the quirk table in the BMM and see a lot of quirks that don't have direct fluff references.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Those cases generally seem to be based on artwork.

[RifleMech]

Those cases generally seem to be based on artwork.

Some are. Others are based on fluff.

[paladin2019]

Art is fluff, so basing a thing on art is basing it on fluff?

[RifleMech]

Art is fluff, so basing a thing on art is basing it on fluff?

Fluff is the text. Art is the picture. The Wolverine having improved communications and being a command mech is based on the text/fluff. The Wolverine having a Jettison-Capable Weapon (AC/5) is based on the picture/art.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Some are. Others are based on fluff.

I was responding to the post directly above mine, which was noting that there were mechs that had quirks that were not based on fluff.

[RifleMech]

Yes. Some quirks are based on fluff. Some on art. And others just because.

[pokefan548]

Worth noting, there is a limitation for balance. Per AToW, units may not have more than 5 Positive and 5 Negative Quirks, and may not have a Quirk point total of more than +5.

Of course, just like the rule for SPA assignment with pilot cards and unique pilots, this tends to be ignored a lot by canon materials.

[Failure16]

Ah. So, there are rules, after a fashion. Cheers.

Those cases generally seem to be based on artwork.

Some are. Others are based on fluff.

I can get behind those reasons. This Cramped Cockpit for the WVR chassis isn't either of those, though. But, as I mentioned earlier, it doesn't bother me enough presently to "Ask the Writers", either.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

When it comes to the Cramped Cockpit SPA, I feel like I remember hearing something about it being given to mechs that had weapons or other equipment in the head slot.  Not 100% sure on that.

[RifleMech]

Ah. So, there are rules, after a fashion. Cheers.

I can get behind those reasons. This Cramped Cockpit for the WVR chassis isn't either of those, though. But, as I mentioned earlier, it doesn't bother me enough presently to "Ask the Writers", either.

I think it either depends on Seen or Unseen art or just because. It doesn't bother me enough to ask either. We're still free to use it or not on our tables.

[Failure16]

When it comes to the Cramped Cockpit SPA, I feel like I remember hearing something about it being given to mechs that had weapons or other equipment in the head slot.  Not 100% sure on that.

No equipment in the head, but an AS7-D manages to cram a satellite dish that would have made my 1980s home feel proud. The point being: just keep the Quirks to text references first, and perhaps visual cues second.

Adding them without some other basis is a slippery slope indeed.

I think it either depends on Seen or Unseen art or just because. It doesn't bother me enough to ask either. We're still free to use it or not on our tables.

Right, right.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

The Atlas's communications dish is outside the cockpit, though, while a medium laser or other such item is going to take up significant space inside the mech's head.

[Failure16]

It folds into the head for combat. See TRO 3025.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Not a book I've ever owned.  Or am likely to own at this point given it's been out of print for so long.

[Failure16]

Fair enough. And, in the interest of fair play, the relevant passage also makes it clear the cockpit is "roomy". It was just an illustration that having equipment in the Head should not automatically equate to a Cramped Cockpit Quirk without other factors being present.

At the end of the day, Quirks are just a way to translate text or visual cues into a codified ergonomic system for a game. Throwing them in without cause weakens the reasoning behind their existence, especially if that reasoning is some imagined salve to game balance.

[RifleMech]

The Atlas's communications dish is outside the cockpit, though, while a medium laser or other such item is going to take up significant space inside the mech's head.

I would think that would depend on the size of the Mech's head and how things were installed. The Vindicator was originally designed with the head mounted Medium Laser intruding into the cockpit area which interfered with the ejection system. The head was redesigned just before the War of 3039 to fix that problem. 

Edit to add
Looking at the Vindicator's art I don't see how the medium laser introduce into the cockpit. I can see the Thorn's medium laser intruding into the cockpit but it only makes the cockpit hotter when used.

One of the mechs in SB:SD was used to test equipment and additional monitors and equipment were installed in the cockpit making it cramped and giving the pilot back pain.

[Wolf72]

Balancing? meh, in my AU my crap-tacular 10 and 40 ER rated vehicles (those moving 1/2 or 2/3) all get Power Reverse! ... the balancing act is in that they're cheap & slow (just about all carry a hitch or are even built as trailers).  The VToLs and other speedsters get Poor Performance (can't hit flank right away, have to do one turn of cruise then go to flank -- something like that).  (my examples are on the wimpy end of the discussion, regardless balancing is all on the rule of kewl, whether good or bad)