Author Topic: So HVACs...any use for them?  (Read 9491 times)

bakija

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Re: So HVACs...any use for them?
« Reply #30 on: 27 February 2012, 18:07:56 »
Yes, with the other weapons that fail on a 2, you can see an instructor telling a new pilot "this autocannon is effective at wrecking about 2/3 a ton of armor at up to 540 meters range.  If you're really in the s--- you can over-ride the rate of fire limiter, but recoil will mess up targeting a bit [out-of-game: second shot only hits on an 8+ cluster roll], and you might fry the firing circuit."

Yeah, that's reasonable--the big difference between the HVAC and the RAC/AC Ultra (as previously noted) is that the RAC/AC Ultra can be fired without the accidental death clause (which isn't even a death clause, just a "your gun doesn't work anymore" clause. And one of them can be fixed in a scenario even.)

The HVAC, however, is just a bad idea. I mean, yeah, it isn't that likely that a single HVAC is going to blow up in a given scenario--you fire it 10-15 times, you have a (often significantly) less than a 50% chance of it blowing up. But I'd be inclined to not even try, given that it's main advantage is extreme range, and firing at extreme range is all about a large volume of low odds; you are firing at extreme range, meaning that you'll generally have a 11+ to hit, meaning that your firing the HVAC is going to be about as likely to blow up as it is to hit something. At which point, why bother?

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: So HVACs...any use for them?
« Reply #31 on: 27 February 2012, 18:29:40 »
Precisely.
Warning: this post may contain sarcasm.

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StCptMara

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Re: So HVACs...any use for them?
« Reply #32 on: 27 February 2012, 21:02:12 »
Why is everyone seeming to say that RACs jam, and never unjam? That is ONLY Ultras...RACs, you just
spend a round unjamming.(Hence why RACs are superior to Ultras)
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bakija

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Re: So HVACs...any use for them?
« Reply #33 on: 27 February 2012, 21:14:15 »
Why is everyone seeming to say that RACs jam, and never unjam? That is ONLY Ultras...RACs, you just
spend a round unjamming.(Hence why RACs are superior to Ultras)

You saw the part where I wrote:

"the big difference between the HVAC and the RAC/AC Ultra (as previously noted) is that the RAC/AC Ultra can be fired without the accidental death clause (which isn't even a death clause, just a "your gun doesn't work anymore" clause. And one of them can be fixed in a scenario even.)"

Right?

StCptMara

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Re: So HVACs...any use for them?
« Reply #34 on: 27 February 2012, 21:19:39 »
It seems that others are all lumping the RAC and Ultra together after a 2.
"Victory or Debt!"- The Battlecry of Mercenaries everywhere

"Greetings, Mechwarrior! You have been recruited by the Star League to defend the frontier against---Oops, wrong universe" - Unknown SLDF Recruiter

Reality and Battletech go hand in hand like a drug induced hallucination and engineering a fusion reactor ;-)

willydstyle

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Re: So HVACs...any use for them?
« Reply #35 on: 27 February 2012, 22:25:34 »
No, it's just that the ability to unjam a rotary isn't that pertinent to the conversation.

StCptMara

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Re: So HVACs...any use for them?
« Reply #36 on: 27 February 2012, 22:40:38 »
No, it's just that the ability to unjam a rotary isn't that pertinent to the conversation.

Nor are the tactical advantages of the HVAC, considering when I brought them up, they were ignored.
The Thread was asking if there is any use for HVACs, which there is. Yes, there is a a risk associated with
the HVAC, however, there is a tactical use for the weapon. However, the discussion seems to be more
about "the HVAC has a downside/inherent risk..lets only talk about that." If you are using an HVAC, you
are, by extension, using the smoke rules. Its advantage is NOT the range...it is the Smoke behind the firing
unit, but everyone seems to be omitting the one element that makes the HVAC more useful then just its
range.
"Victory or Debt!"- The Battlecry of Mercenaries everywhere

"Greetings, Mechwarrior! You have been recruited by the Star League to defend the frontier against---Oops, wrong universe" - Unknown SLDF Recruiter

Reality and Battletech go hand in hand like a drug induced hallucination and engineering a fusion reactor ;-)

wundergoat

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Re: So HVACs...any use for them?
« Reply #37 on: 27 February 2012, 23:05:50 »
I would disagree there, I think the focus is on the downside because the downside is simply so big it invalidates the advantage of one turn worth of smoke behind the firing unit.  Even without the explosion risk, the HVAC would still only have a minor niche due to the weight, heat, and ammo issues.

StCptMara

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Re: So HVACs...any use for them?
« Reply #38 on: 27 February 2012, 23:15:37 »
I would disagree there, I think the focus is on the downside because the downside is simply so big it invalidates the advantage of one turn worth of smoke behind the firing unit.  Even without the explosion risk, the HVAC would still only have a minor niche due to the weight, heat, and ammo issues.

Thing is, its really not just 1 turn. Also, if you have a lance of mechs with them in a company, the advantage of the smoke becomes
much more powerful. Frankly, in the last 5 years, I have seen an Ultra jam TWICE in my group. I would, generally, not fear that
roll of a 2. Also, if you are using HVACs, you are likely using a custom unit, anyway..and so, CASE II would, thus, be available.
"Victory or Debt!"- The Battlecry of Mercenaries everywhere

"Greetings, Mechwarrior! You have been recruited by the Star League to defend the frontier against---Oops, wrong universe" - Unknown SLDF Recruiter

Reality and Battletech go hand in hand like a drug induced hallucination and engineering a fusion reactor ;-)

wundergoat

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Re: So HVACs...any use for them?
« Reply #39 on: 28 February 2012, 01:08:39 »
Regardless what your observations are, the probability is 1/36, or the same as a head shot, every time you fire.  Without CASE II, it is crippling, and while the weapon is contemporary with CASE II, both canon production level units using it lack it's protection.  The new rapier is crippled by an explosion and gains no advantage from smoke, the Po kills its crew outright.
« Last Edit: 28 February 2012, 01:10:37 by wundergoat »

Isanova

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Re: So HVACs...any use for them?
« Reply #40 on: 28 February 2012, 06:19:42 »
On a more positive note,

You could make one hellova Uber-Annihilator with three HVAC-10s in each arm of a superheavy mech.  O0

This is 3050's Cappellan R&D here folks... what did you expect? Somebody had to come up with something worse than the Blazer.
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Cannonshop

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Re: So HVACs...any use for them?
« Reply #41 on: 28 February 2012, 06:49:01 »
It's a suicide gun, you give it to thuggee fanatics and use them as initial-shock-troops against MD positions and Feddies (and Devlin), thus conserving REAL combat units by sending in the suicide bums first.
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bakija

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Re: So HVACs...any use for them?
« Reply #42 on: 28 February 2012, 10:21:07 »
Thing is, its really not just 1 turn. Also, if you have a lance of mechs with them in a company, the advantage of the smoke becomes
much more powerful. Frankly, in the last 5 years, I have seen an Ultra jam TWICE in my group. I would, generally, not fear that
roll of a 2. Also, if you are using HVACs, you are likely using a custom unit, anyway..and so, CASE II would, thus, be available.

The problems with this are:

A) There are better ways to generate smoke that don't involve you accidentally blowing up once and a while. You can get a regular AC and a Flamethrower for less weight than a comparable HVAC. And then you don't accidentally blow up once and a while. And still generate less heat.

B) The more HVACs you have in a lance, the more likely one is to blow up. If you have 4 guys each with an HVAC, each firing every turn, on average, one of them will blow up in 9 turns. Which is a totally reasonable possibility in an average game. So by volunteering to use the HVACs, you are just giving your opponent essentially a free kill (well, mission kill, anyway, even with CASE--HVACs are heavy, so probably the main gun on a given unit).

Is it nice that HVACs generate smoke? Yeah, I guess--if there was a gun that generated smoke without accidentally blowing up while also shooting someone, that would be worth using occasionally. But as you can generate smoke in other ways while also shooting someone with other, non self-destructive guns, probably not the best plan to follow just to be able to make smoke while shooting.

Martius

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Re: So HVACs...any use for them?
« Reply #43 on: 28 February 2012, 10:45:09 »
The smoke is both boon and curse as it also interferes with friendly units.

HVACs are in the same league as the Bombast Laser or Binary Laser and show well that experimental not always means better.

However giving them acess to special AC ammo would increase their usefulness.

Nahuris

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Re: So HVACs...any use for them?
« Reply #44 on: 28 February 2012, 11:53:19 »
For me, it isn't just the blow up chance... it's the shear weight and heat COMBINED with a chance to blow up ----
I can put Case II in to deal with the explosion to the mech... but if you use one of these, it's either your primary weapon, or a significant portion of your armament.... and risking having a on 1 in 36 chance of losing that much of your offense in trade for one turn of smoke behind you..... and it's not losing it to enemy fire, it's inherent in the weapon that it just blows up one time in 36.... I've lost weapons due to floating crits.... including once while piloting a Blitzkrieg .... lost it to an AC/2 on the first shot of the game..... without ever getting a shot off....
I congratulated my opponent, because sometimes it happens that way... but I'm not going to deliberately create a situation that gives that luck to my opponent
I know that we can win or lose based on fluke rolls of the die, but why create an extra detrimental fluke chance for yourself?

Nahuris
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Void

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Re: So HVACs...any use for them?
« Reply #45 on: 28 February 2012, 15:59:23 »
HVACs are in the same league as the Bombast Laser or Binary Laser and show well that experimental not always means better.

While I think the bombast is a good comparison, the HVAC dreams wistfully of having a niche so large and prosperous as that the blazer could've enjoyed pre-Helm Core (and it was technically invented much prior, too).

Which leads me to an interesting question: If all else is 3025 tech, does the HVAC become more attractive to anyone, or is the even-greater explosion risk self-countering? Well, less interesting than I thought since I seem to have answered it for myself, but... anyway...

willydstyle

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Re: So HVACs...any use for them?
« Reply #46 on: 28 February 2012, 18:20:14 »
Considering they're hotter than normal autocannons, I don't think they're very good pre-invasion either.

bakija

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Re: So HVACs...any use for them?
« Reply #47 on: 28 February 2012, 18:20:29 »
Which leads me to an interesting question: If all else is 3025 tech, does the HVAC become more attractive to anyone, or is the even-greater explosion risk self-countering?

Nah. It still blows. 'Cause it could just be a PPC instead. Which has almost the same range, doing the same damage (assuming HVAC10) for only slightly more heat, for half the weight. And doesn't explode.