Poll

Who would win:

RFL-3N Rifleman
JM6-S JagerMech

Author Topic: Fight Night: Rifleman vs JagerMech  (Read 20843 times)

YingJanshi

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Fight Night: Rifleman vs JagerMech
« on: 14 May 2013, 12:08:48 »
Ok so assuming 3/4 pilots and fought on two BT mapsheets laid side-by-side (long edge to long edge), who would win:

the Rifleman or the JagerMech?

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martian

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Re: Fight Night: Rifleman vs JagerMech
« Reply #1 on: 14 May 2013, 12:21:33 »
Rifleman.

It has 24 points of armor more than the JagerMech and you can turn it into all-energy 'Mech when you dump ammo (if needed). Hell, the JagerMech has more points of internal structure than it has armor on all locations except the head.

Although the JagerMech has those AC-2s (and thus longer reach in theory), the map provides enough obstacles that break the LOS that the Rifleman can use when closing.

A. Lurker

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Re: Fight Night: Rifleman vs JagerMech
« Reply #2 on: 14 May 2013, 12:22:04 »
Rifleman unless the JagerMech pilot is lucky enough to score two (possibly more if at least one is only with an AC/2) head hits before it's all over. Better head armor and the ability to run cooler are about the only two things the JM has over the RFL in this matchup -- without considerable luck early in the fight, its turns are numbered once the action moves into large laser range, and on only two mapsheets that moment won't normally be long in coming.

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Re: Fight Night: Rifleman vs JagerMech
« Reply #3 on: 14 May 2013, 13:24:09 »
The Rifleman's large lasers are cannons of doom. Two hits can disarm a JägerMech literally.

Jayof9s

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Re: Fight Night: Rifleman vs JagerMech
« Reply #4 on: 14 May 2013, 13:34:34 »
As has been said quite a bit, the Rifleman has more armor and trades the AC/2s for Large Lasers so it isn't much competition outside of pure luck intervening with headshots or TACs. The JagerMech technically has a range advantage thanks to the AC/2s but it is unlikely to be able to make use of it, even on a large map.

Edit: The JM6-A might make for a more interesting fight with the RFL-3N
« Last Edit: 14 May 2013, 13:36:23 by Jayof9s »

SteveRestless

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Re: Fight Night: Rifleman vs JagerMech
« Reply #5 on: 14 May 2013, 14:24:27 »
I'd say it depends quite a bit on which model of each mech, but over-all, the rifleman tends to have better mech on mech weaponry than the Jaeger.
Шонхорын хурдаар хурцлан давшъя, Чонын зоригоор асан дүрэлзэье, Тэнхээт морьдын туурайгаар нүргэе, Тамгат Чингисийн ухаанаар даръя | Let’s go faster than a falcon, Let’s burn with the wolf’s courage, Let’s roar with the hooves of strong horses, Let’s go with the wisdom of Tamgat Genghis - The Hu, Wolf Totem

martian

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Re: Fight Night: Rifleman vs JagerMech
« Reply #6 on: 14 May 2013, 14:30:49 »
I'd say it depends quite a bit on which model of each mech, but over-all, the rifleman tends to have better mech on mech weaponry than the Jaeger.

The standard model of JagerMech is no duelist. The JM6-B on the other hand ...

Jayof9s

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Re: Fight Night: Rifleman vs JagerMech
« Reply #7 on: 14 May 2013, 14:55:24 »
I'd say it depends quite a bit on which model of each mech, but over-all, the rifleman tends to have better mech on mech weaponry than the Jaeger.

The poll itself specifies the JM6-S and RFL-3N.  ;)

I was just pointing out in my edit that the JM6-A might make it a closer fight since everyone seems to fairly well agree that the JM6-S is outclassed by the RFL-3N.

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Re: Fight Night: Rifleman vs JagerMech
« Reply #8 on: 14 May 2013, 15:37:20 »
Rifleman. The JagerMech has to be consistently lucky. The Rifleman just has to connect enough times with a large laser.
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SteveRestless

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Re: Fight Night: Rifleman vs JagerMech
« Reply #9 on: 14 May 2013, 16:52:45 »
The poll itself specifies the JM6-S and RFL-3N.  ;)

I was just pointing out in my edit that the JM6-A might make it a closer fight since everyone seems to fairly well agree that the JM6-S is outclassed by the RFL-3N.

Would you believe I didn't even see the poll part, and just saw the thread? ^^;;
Шонхорын хурдаар хурцлан давшъя, Чонын зоригоор асан дүрэлзэье, Тэнхээт морьдын туурайгаар нүргэе, Тамгат Чингисийн ухаанаар даръя | Let’s go faster than a falcon, Let’s burn with the wolf’s courage, Let’s roar with the hooves of strong horses, Let’s go with the wisdom of Tamgat Genghis - The Hu, Wolf Totem

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Re: Fight Night: Rifleman vs JagerMech
« Reply #10 on: 14 May 2013, 18:08:15 »
I love the Jagermech and she has served me well, but the Rifleman has this one.
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ehlijen

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Re: Fight Night: Rifleman vs JagerMech
« Reply #11 on: 14 May 2013, 19:59:03 »
Would precision or AP ammo change that?
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Fallen_Raven

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Re: Fight Night: Rifleman vs JagerMech
« Reply #12 on: 14 May 2013, 20:22:14 »
I think special ammo might actually make it worse. Sure, the Jagermech has more autocannons, but AC/2s aren't heavy enough to cause a sea change. On the other hand, a Rifleman would have more reason to use its cooler running AC/5s, which makes it deadly even when holding back to dump heat.

Short version, giving both 'mechs equal access to special ammo helps the Rifleman more than it does the Jagermech.
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Re: Fight Night: Rifleman vs JagerMech
« Reply #13 on: 14 May 2013, 20:58:08 »
Rifleman as it has better weapons and armor.  Also the JagerMech will not likely be able to keep its range advantage as the mechs have the same speed.

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Re: Fight Night: Rifleman vs JagerMech
« Reply #14 on: 14 May 2013, 20:59:01 »
Rifleman, the Jagermech pilot would need better luck then the Rifleman to beat it. The armor and damage abilitys of the two designs gives the leverage to the Rifleman. Then again luck is everything...
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Re: Fight Night: Rifleman vs JagerMech
« Reply #15 on: 14 May 2013, 21:37:08 »
Would precision or AP ammo change that?

Special ammo would help the Jager significantly.  The Rifleman can't afford to take specialty ammo since it only has a single ton available.  Cutting that in half would be silly.

If it could get close enough, the Jager does have the advantage of running significantly cooler.  As others have said though, the lack of armor protecting the arms dooms the Jager.  If it could maintain more distance it would help, but two mapsheets just doesn't provide enough space.
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Re: Fight Night: Rifleman vs JagerMech
« Reply #16 on: 14 May 2013, 22:31:39 »
I have to add to the avalanche that is Rifleman support.   As a Davonista from the get go, I am contractually obligated to like the JagerMech,  and some versions I do (JM6-A has always done me well in 3025 play, and it really came into its own when they bumped it up five tons,) but the standard version is too much a finesse machine for one on one dueling.  It is a team oriented role-player, like most 3025 'Mechs.  The long reach is fine, but it is criminally under armored, even compared to the poster child of criminally unarmored, the Rifleman.  Without lancemates to run defense, two map sheets are too small a playground for it to survive.

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Re: Fight Night: Rifleman vs JagerMech
« Reply #17 on: 15 May 2013, 01:30:53 »
As member #3 of the JM6 Haters club, I am contractually obligated to say that the Rifleman will win. ....And that is because it will.
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Re: Fight Night: Rifleman vs JagerMech
« Reply #18 on: 15 May 2013, 01:49:45 »
No contest: The Rifleman. In fact, I would even go so far as to say: The RFL 3N can take the JagerMech
apart with just one arm. No..seriously: I bid one Large Laser and one AC/5 to ALL the JagerMech's weapons,
and I still think I will win.
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House Davie Merc

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Re: Fight Night: Rifleman vs JagerMech
« Reply #19 on: 15 May 2013, 02:37:53 »
Rifleman .

A single large laser hit to the arm of the JagerMech and your already
rolling for crits .
10 rounds of constant AC fire from the Rifleman and its an all energy zombie
wiith medium range weapons that are very damaging to the thin skinned Jag .

On top of that both side torsos of the Jagermech have a ton of ammo
and a medium laser .   A single critical hit to the side torsos is a 50 % chance
of a kaboom .

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Re: Fight Night: Rifleman vs JagerMech
« Reply #20 on: 15 May 2013, 10:15:55 »
Yeah. Jagermech pilot had better bring ap ammo and use those ac-2's for his life. If you can engine crit the rifleman maybe he can't eat you with his large lasers.
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Re: Fight Night: Rifleman vs JagerMech
« Reply #21 on: 15 May 2013, 20:11:11 »
Special ammo would help the Jager significantly.  The Rifleman can't afford to take specialty ammo since it only has a single ton available.  Cutting that in half would be silly.

If we use specialty ammo then I would bet that the Rifleman would benefit from running caseless ammo. It is a little risky, but would help with the heat and ammo issue.

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Re: Fight Night: Rifleman vs JagerMech
« Reply #22 on: 15 May 2013, 21:29:55 »
In my experience of how lethal a rifleman can be, it would definitely ROFLstomp a Jager
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Re: Fight Night: Rifleman vs JagerMech
« Reply #23 on: 15 May 2013, 22:32:52 »
Yeah. Jagermech pilot had better bring ap ammo and use those ac-2's for his life. If you can engine crit the rifleman maybe he can't eat you with his large lasers.

AP ammo is pointless on an AC/2.  Crit only on a 12 and harder to hit?  Not worth it.  Precision ammo would be more worth it to cancel out what little movement the Rifleman would have.
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Re: Fight Night: Rifleman vs JagerMech
« Reply #24 on: 16 May 2013, 00:12:32 »
AP ammo is pointless on an AC/2.  Crit only on a 12 and harder to hit?  Not worth it.  Precision ammo would be more worth it to cancel out what little movement the Rifleman would have.

And, frankly, I would STILL take the JagerMech with only one arm of the Rifleman.
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Re: Fight Night: Rifleman vs JagerMech
« Reply #25 on: 16 May 2013, 11:28:17 »
I am one of the five that disagree, all of the JagerMech weapons outrange large lasers. Having equal mobility this means that the JagerMech wins more times than not.  Having 45 rounds of AC/2 means being able to take a few marginal shots instead of just waiting for good ones.
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Re: Fight Night: Rifleman vs JagerMech
« Reply #26 on: 16 May 2013, 11:55:19 »
I am one of the five that disagree, all of the JagerMech weapons outrange large lasers. Having equal mobility this means that the JagerMech wins more times than not.  Having 45 rounds of AC/2 means being able to take a few marginal shots instead of just waiting for good ones.

On rolling maps there might be something to that (though even there it would be dubious -- the JagerMech can't backpedal as quickly as the Rifleman can advance, so the only way to maintain the distance would be to run the hell away and keep those arms flipped backwards, and even that basically assumes salt flats so the JM can reliably keep LOS and make actual use of that range advantage).

On a grand total of 32 x 17 hexes as posited by the OP, though? Nnnnope. Classic fight on a postage stamp, that JagerMech's gonna get cornered in short order.

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Re: Fight Night: Rifleman vs JagerMech
« Reply #27 on: 16 May 2013, 12:45:32 »
so far things look pretty grim for the Jagermech. but obviously there had to be some reason the Jager' was made the way it was, and not just a copy of the Rifleman.

technically both are supposed to have anti-aircraft as their Raison d'être.. even if anti-mech is the role most people apply them to in the overall meta-game (games with fighters in them being somewhat less common than pure ground battles)

so how do the two fair in their primary role as anti-aircraft?
assuming Aerospace and Conventional craft of similar tech levels as the mech models in this little competition.
« Last Edit: 16 May 2013, 12:48:24 by glitterboy2098 »

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Re: Fight Night: Rifleman vs JagerMech
« Reply #28 on: 16 May 2013, 12:53:12 »
Jager. Games I've been involved in the Jager tends to have insane luck and the ability to weather significantly more fire than the Rifleman. Then again, my luck with Class-2 autocannons and Golden BBs is a bit... extreme.

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Re: Fight Night: Rifleman vs JagerMech
« Reply #29 on: 16 May 2013, 13:14:04 »
so how do the two fair in their primary role as anti-aircraft?
assuming Aerospace and Conventional craft of similar tech levels as the mech models in this little competition.

4 ACs shooting Flak ammo vs. 2.

The JägerMech is better here.

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Re: Fight Night: Rifleman vs JagerMech
« Reply #30 on: 16 May 2013, 13:24:47 »
4 ACs shooting Flak ammo vs. 2.

The JägerMech is better here.

Yeah, plus the range on the AC2 is substantially more desirable than the range on the LL. The LL will threshold a lot more often, but the job in AA is provoking Control Rolls, so if the LL misses because it's in Long or even out of range completely, the AC2 wins just by being able to connect.
Course, that was less of a concern prior to the eliminate of the hex 0909 based AA rules.
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Re: Fight Night: Rifleman vs JagerMech
« Reply #31 on: 16 May 2013, 13:29:38 »
so how do the two fair in their primary role as anti-aircraft?
assuming Aerospace and Conventional craft of similar tech levels as the mech models in this little competition.

Jagermech's are fairly good at the role, at least if you're rellying on lawndarts. Light autocannons provide the one key feature for anti-aircraft capability, pure range. The low damage is offset by lawndart checks being forced by any hit at all, and the low heat allows you to fire every pass, both of which make it a probability you'll shoot something down eventually.

The Rifleman is competent at the role as well, but from a slightly different angle. The Large Lasers take on a larger role, allowing you to get threshold crits on heavier fighters. This means that you have to be in a more predictable position (closer to the center of the map) to get range, but you can inflict multiple piloting checks in a turn. The down side is that your heat problems can make it difficult to keep up a high volume of fire.
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A. Lurker

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Re: Fight Night: Rifleman vs JagerMech
« Reply #32 on: 16 May 2013, 15:47:52 »
It's worth noting that how well AC/2s perform in an anti-aircraft role depends directly on which rules are in use. Standard Total Warfare, no problem, any damage => lawn dart check.

Play at a table that uses the Advanced Atmospheric Control Rolls rule from StratOps p. 97, though, and suddenly the same AC/2 loses its bite except against targets it can actually threshold (i.e. not many outside the realm of conventional fighters).

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Re: Fight Night: Rifleman vs JagerMech
« Reply #33 on: 17 May 2013, 01:59:22 »
so far things look pretty grim for the Jagermech. but obviously there had to be some reason the Jager' was made the way it was, and not just a copy of the Rifleman.


Possibility #1 .  The other Davion 3025 variants absolutely rock out loud , so the Jager
and Shadowhawk SHD-2D were created in an attempt to make random assignment tables
seem more fair .

Possibility #2 .  To make other mechs seem so much better at mech to mech combat .
It became the ugly girl that makes the pretty girl feel better so she is kept around as
a friend .

Possibility  #3 .  " Hey guys lets put the longest ranged 3025 autocannon  on a heavy just
to see what happens .  Oh crap .  Did  you say our first TRO is already printed with it still in there ?
And you say the pics for a light and heavy are switched to ?  Now people won't figure out which ones
do and don't have hands for years .  "

Possibility # 4.  " Hey ! .  I'm still sober enough to finish this before the deadline tonight ! "
« Last Edit: 17 May 2013, 02:01:17 by House Davie Merc »

A. Lurker

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Re: Fight Night: Rifleman vs JagerMech
« Reply #34 on: 17 May 2013, 03:43:44 »
Possibility #5: Back then the makers of the game themselves still didn't have quite that solid a grasp of what does or does not make a good design yet, so they just threw in what they personally liked. (The second part -- though not the first, if it's even true to begin with -- would arguably become a tradition that holds until today.)

Possibility #6: "Hey, players, here's what we've come up with for our silly background universe and yeah, some of these designs are lemons. If you don't like one or six of them, that's why we put construction rules into the back of your rulebook so you can do better anytime you like."

Remember, the whole obsession with "canon" came only a good bit later -- IIRC, anyway. Mostly because that early in the game's history there just wasn't much in the way of canon to obsess over yet.

StCptMara

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Re: Fight Night: Rifleman vs JagerMech
« Reply #35 on: 17 May 2013, 03:58:13 »
Possibility #6: "Hey, players, here's what we've come up with for our silly background universe and yeah, some of these designs are lemons. If you don't like one or six of them, that's why we put construction rules into the back of your rulebook so you can do better anytime you like."

Remember, the whole obsession with "canon" came only a good bit later -- IIRC, anyway. Mostly because that early in the game's history there just wasn't much in the way of canon to obsess over yet.

You know..one thing that I have also always found fun, and maybe some of the designers felt the same way, was trying to win with
so-called "inferior" designs.  I mean, imagine all you have in your lance is an LCT-1M, a JagerMech, a Wasp, and a UM-60L UrbanMech.
How are you going to beat the Sword of Light forces that just came out of that Leopard, with their Dragon, 2 Panthers, and Jenner,
plus 2 Samurai fighters?
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Re: Fight Night: Rifleman vs JagerMech
« Reply #36 on: 17 May 2013, 04:06:15 »
You know..one thing that I have also always found fun, and maybe some of the designers felt the same way, was trying to win with
so-called "inferior" designs.  I mean, imagine all you have in your lance is an LCT-1M, a JagerMech, a Wasp, and a UM-60L UrbanMech.
How are you going to beat the Sword of Light forces that just came out of that Leopard, with their Dragon, 2 Panthers, and Jenner,
plus 2 Samurai fighters?

I'm probably not, but I sure aim to go down letting them know they've been in a fight if it should come to that.

So, yeah, that's definitely another valid perspective. :)

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Re: Fight Night: Rifleman vs JagerMech
« Reply #37 on: 17 May 2013, 04:15:33 »
I'm probably not, but I sure aim to go down letting them know they've been in a fight if it should come to that.

So, yeah, that's definitely another valid perspective. :)

You know...I almost want to try that fight now, just to see how well it would come out..a Militia 5/6 lance against
the Sword of Light 3/4's or better...it might actually be fun to try..
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Re: Fight Night: Rifleman vs JagerMech
« Reply #38 on: 17 May 2013, 06:44:25 »
so far things look pretty grim for the Jagermech. but obviously there had to be some reason the Jager' was made the way it was, and not just a copy of the Rifleman.

technically both are supposed to have anti-aircraft as their Raison d'être.. even if anti-mech is the role most people apply them to in the overall meta-game (games with fighters in them being somewhat less common than pure ground battles)

so how do the two fair in their primary role as anti-aircraft?
assuming Aerospace and Conventional craft of similar tech levels as the mech models in this little competition.

The Jagermech runs a lot cooler and has more ammo. That lets the Jagermech keep firing while the Rifleman has to stop do to heat and empty ammo bins.

ehlijen

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Re: Fight Night: Rifleman vs JagerMech
« Reply #39 on: 17 May 2013, 09:04:15 »
The Jagermech runs a lot cooler and has more ammo. That lets the Jagermech keep firing while the Rifleman has to stop do to heat and empty ammo bins.

Yes, but the Jagermech doesn't have the armour to play the long game. The Rifleman won't have to overheat and cool that many times before the Jagermech has to be just as careful due to open locations.
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Re: Fight Night: Rifleman vs JagerMech
« Reply #40 on: 17 May 2013, 09:26:17 »
Yes, but the Jagermech doesn't have the armour to play the long game. The Rifleman won't have to overheat and cool that many times before the Jagermech has to be just as careful due to open locations.

That's true in the context of the original 'Mech-vs.-'Mech duel, less so if the competition is instead who can shoot down more aircraft. In that regard and assuming stock TW rules the JagerMech has the edge because it can engage targets further out, has more ammo to lob at them, and doesn't have to worry about needing to pause its fire on account of heat.

It's still not going to hold up to return fire very well, but it'd take a pretty daring and/or desperate aerojock to risk a lawn dart roll in a direct attack. (Of course, the most likely result of that in turn is going to be said aerojocks calling for ground support, against which the JM will be once again in trouble once it gets there. But at that point we're really looking at a larger-scale combined arms engagement altogether.)

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Re: Fight Night: Rifleman vs JagerMech
« Reply #41 on: 17 May 2013, 10:16:38 »
Possibility #1 .  The other Davion 3025 variants absolutely rock out loud , so the Jager
and Shadowhawk SHD-2D were created in an attempt to make random assignment tables
seem more fair .

Possibility #2 .  To make other mechs seem so much better at mech to mech combat .
It became the ugly girl that makes the pretty girl feel better so she is kept around as
a friend .

Possibility  #3 .  " Hey guys lets put the longest ranged 3025 autocannon  on a heavy just
to see what happens .  Oh crap .  Did  you say our first TRO is already printed with it still in there ?
And you say the pics for a light and heavy are switched to ?  Now people won't figure out which ones
do and don't have hands for years .  "

Possibility # 4.  " Hey ! .  I'm still sober enough to finish this before the deadline tonight ! "

i meant In Universe.. not the out of universe meta-game. there had to be some in universe reason for the Jagermech design team to build it with AC2's instead of just copying the loadout of the Rifleman.
« Last Edit: 17 May 2013, 10:37:29 by glitterboy2098 »

Jayof9s

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Re: Fight Night: Rifleman vs JagerMech
« Reply #42 on: 17 May 2013, 10:50:35 »
i meant In Universe.. not the out of universe meta-game. there had to be some in universe reason for the Jagermech design team to build it with AC2's instead of just copying the loadout of the Rifleman.

As people have said, it actually (in some instances) makes it a superior Anti-Air platform. Better range and it runs cooler (the Rifleman can't easily fire its 4 main guns consistently). It can also sit back at much further ranges and provide (light) direct-fire support than the Rifleman could. All of which would be in-universe reasons.

So, sure the JagerMech isn't much of a brawler/duelist but it wasn't designed to be.

Paul

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Re: Fight Night: Rifleman vs JagerMech
« Reply #43 on: 17 May 2013, 11:30:24 »
One thing I've noticed in larger games is that the JagerMech is actually likely to survive. Its range allows you to hang back with it, (10-12 hexes) while your more obvious trooper Mechs are slugging it out with theirs. Most enemies, if they've got to pick between low to-hits on that Hunchback, or higher to-hits on the Jager, just leave the JM alone. Even if the JM to-hits aren't outrageous. They need to fix the HBK problem first, and the JM is only a 14 damage potential problem.
Riflemen have to get those LLs closer to be effective, and very few will ignore their weaponry. While it might have more armor, it's also far more likely to need it.

Paul
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A. Lurker

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Re: Fight Night: Rifleman vs JagerMech
« Reply #44 on: 17 May 2013, 12:02:57 »
Well, whether "it's likely to survive because it's just not enough of a threat to attract much attention" is such a compliment to any 'Mech might make a good topic for a thread of its own. :D

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Re: Fight Night: Rifleman vs JagerMech
« Reply #45 on: 17 May 2013, 14:03:44 »
Rifleman without a doubt!
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Re: Fight Night: Rifleman vs JagerMech
« Reply #46 on: 17 May 2013, 14:21:21 »
One thing I've noticed in larger games is that the JagerMech is actually likely to survive. Its range allows you to hang back with it, (10-12 hexes) while your more obvious trooper Mechs are slugging it out with theirs. Most enemies, if they've got to pick between low to-hits on that Hunchback, or higher to-hits on the Jager, just leave the JM alone. Even if the JM to-hits aren't outrageous. They need to fix the HBK problem first, and the JM is only a 14 damage potential problem.
Riflemen have to get those LLs closer to be effective, and very few will ignore their weaponry. While it might have more armor, it's also far more likely to need it.

Paul

I noticed the same. Just keep the JagerMech back and it is a useful support unit and scavanger, using the AC2 to critseek at range.

Nikas_Zekeval

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Re: Fight Night: Rifleman vs JagerMech
« Reply #47 on: 17 May 2013, 21:10:09 »
Jagermech's are fairly good at the role, at least if you're rellying on lawndarts. Light autocannons provide the one key feature for anti-aircraft capability, pure range. The low damage is offset by lawndart checks being forced by any hit at all, and the low heat allows you to fire every pass, both of which make it a probability you'll shoot something down eventually.

The Rifleman is competent at the role as well, but from a slightly different angle. The Large Lasers take on a larger role, allowing you to get threshold crits on heavier fighters. This means that you have to be in a more predictable position (closer to the center of the map) to get range, but you can inflict multiple piloting checks in a turn. The down side is that your heat problems can make it difficult to keep up a high volume of fire.

That assumes the enemy can make a pass every turn.  Otherwise an alpha then cool down is a viable tactic.

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Re: Fight Night: Rifleman vs JagerMech
« Reply #48 on: 17 May 2013, 21:18:50 »
Yes, but the Jagermech doesn't have the armour to play the long game. The Rifleman won't have to overheat and cool that many times before the Jagermech has to be just as careful due to open locations.

True the Jagermech doesn't have as much armor but the Rifleman only has 10 heat sinks. That isn't enough to take care of the 16 heat generated by 2 large lasers. Just firing them causes the Rifleman to lose 1 MP. Firing the ACs at the same time gains the Rifleman a +1 modifier to fire. Add in the medium lasers and your -2MP, +2 modifier to fire, and trying to avoid a shutdown on a +4. That doesn't include movement heat either.Move and you have -3 MP. The Jagermech though has to fire everything and run overheat 2 points. In the heat of battle that's a big advantage. Heavier armor doesn't help when you can't move.


i meant In Universe.. not the out of universe meta-game. there had to be some in universe reason for the Jagermech design team to build it with AC2's instead of just copying the loadout of the Rifleman.


The Jagermech was created to solve the Rifleman's heat and ammo problems.

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Re: Fight Night: Rifleman vs JagerMech
« Reply #49 on: 17 May 2013, 22:01:45 »
I think it comes out to a toss up.  In a Mech V mech battle the rifle man can barage fire its weapons, 2 large lasers, next turn both AC/5s.  and keep switching it up.  Now The jager mech can fire its entire weapons load.  Now both mechs have light armor even for there time, but not there intended role. 

In a long range dueling match the jager has the advantage of range, but then again they are just AC/2's.

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Re: Fight Night: Rifleman vs JagerMech
« Reply #50 on: 18 May 2013, 00:46:10 »
In the stated premise of duel?  Rifleman by a landslide.

As AA platforms?  Jagermech.  An ASF at Altitude 8 is counted as being 16 hexes farther away than it actually is.  That's out of the range of the Rifleman's Large Lasers and Long Range for the AC-5s of both.  The AC-2?  It laughs because that is still Medium Range and it can fire flak for -2.

Though I will say that some people seem to be insisting that just because the Rifleman has two Large Lasers it must fire both in the same turn.  I actually suspect the Rifleman is intended to only use half of it's firepower at a time, if that much.  The other half?  Redundancy due to battle damage.

Jagermech has enough ammo it can use more of it's guns if the to hit numbers are right but being almost entirely ammo based it has a most perilous position.

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Re: Fight Night: Rifleman vs JagerMech
« Reply #51 on: 18 May 2013, 01:32:51 »
One thing I've noticed in larger games is that the JagerMech is actually likely to survive. Its range allows you to hang back with it, (10-12 hexes) while your more obvious trooper Mechs are slugging it out with theirs. Most enemies, if they've got to pick between low to-hits on that Hunchback, or higher to-hits on the Jager, just leave the JM alone. Even if the JM to-hits aren't outrageous. They need to fix the HBK problem first, and the JM is only a 14 damage potential problem.
Riflemen have to get those LLs closer to be effective, and very few will ignore their weaponry. While it might have more armor, it's also far more likely to need it.

Paul

That only works if the JagerMech stays at 24-22 hexes range and only uses his AC/2. As soon as it is at 18 hexes secondary LRM and AC/5 will be aimed at it, because everyone knows an JagerMech is an easy kill. That's what I experienced.
And as soon as flanking P-Hawks, Jenners, Javelins, etc. come around the corner, the JagerMech is the first one to be killed.
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Re: Fight Night: Rifleman vs JagerMech
« Reply #52 on: 18 May 2013, 01:37:31 »
One thing I've noticed in larger games is that the JagerMech is actually likely to survive. Its range allows you to hang back with it, (10-12 hexes) while your more obvious trooper Mechs are slugging it out with theirs. Most enemies, if they've got to pick between low to-hits on that Hunchback, or higher to-hits on the Jager, just leave the JM alone. Even if the JM to-hits aren't outrageous. They need to fix the HBK problem first, and the JM is only a 14 damage potential problem.
Riflemen have to get those LLs closer to be effective, and very few will ignore their weaponry. While it might have more armor, it's also far more likely to need it.

Paul
I think this might be a good example of the metagame effect .

In most of our games the Jagermech would be quickly targetted .

It's easily crippled by a few good hits and after that even the lesser lights can
eliminate it to gain an initiative advantage .
I also tend to target mechs with flipping arms to take out the mech best able to
damage flanking units .

We've actually had fights center around defending the crippled Jag ( or other poorly armored mech)
because the loss of a single unit can be a big loss in the movement phase .

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Re: Fight Night: Rifleman vs JagerMech
« Reply #53 on: 18 May 2013, 04:38:56 »
Though I will say that some people seem to be insisting that just because the Rifleman has two Large Lasers it must fire both in the same turn.  I actually suspect the Rifleman is intended to only use half of it's firepower at a time, if that much.  The other half?  Redundancy due to battle damage.

I tend to think of it as reserve firepower, even if the Rifleman's particular "reserve" is a bit out of proportion to what it can deliver "casually" by heat-safe default. Still, I can fire one large laser all day, or everything but the large lasers for as long as the ammo lasts, and even one LL plus both ACs only builds up movement heat...anything significantly more is simply for when I've got a good shot lined up and don't mind having to potentially cool off next turn if it means a good chance at doing some extra damage right now.

I mean, that's what 'Mechs' ability to pack in more guns than their heat sinks can safely handle in one turn is for, right? :)

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Re: Fight Night: Rifleman vs JagerMech
« Reply #54 on: 18 May 2013, 05:25:45 »
I think it comes out to a toss up.  In a Mech V mech battle the rifle man can barage fire its weapons, 2 large lasers, next turn both AC/5s.  and keep switching it up.  Now The jager mech can fire its entire weapons load.  Now both mechs have light armor even for there time, but not there intended role. 

In a long range dueling match the jager has the advantage of range, but then again they are just AC/2's.

That would just slow the heat build up. Not eliminate it. The first time it fires both LLs its going to lose 1 MP and it'll get worse from there. The only way to fire the ACs and eliminate the previous heat is to not move. And that only works if the Rifleman didn't move the turn before. Either way the Rifleman is now slower than the Jagermech. It could just use 1 LL and then switch to both ACs next turn but then it loses a large amount of its firepower. The Rifleman could save the LLs for sure hits but its ammo is limited so it can't do that too long. Whatever it does the Rifleman is going to have problems with overheating and running out of ammo. That's why the Jagermech was created. Unfortunately fixing those problems made the Rifleman's third problem worse.

In a fight against each other I think it'd come down to the pilots, terrain, and luck.

It's kind of surprising the Jagermech wasn't introduced with SL era tech and that the Rifleman didn't receive a simple upgrade. And yes I know that tech didn't exist when TRO:3025 was published. But it is surprising that there isn't a Royal version of them.

I tend to think of it as reserve firepower, even if the Rifleman's particular "reserve" is a bit out of proportion to what it can deliver "casually" by heat-safe default. Still, I can fire one large laser all day, or everything but the large lasers for as long as the ammo lasts, and even one LL plus both ACs only builds up movement heat...anything significantly more is simply for when I've got a good shot lined up and don't mind having to potentially cool off next turn if it means a good chance at doing some extra damage right now.

I mean, that's what 'Mechs' ability to pack in more guns than their heat sinks can safely handle in one turn is for, right? :)

Reserve weapons don't help when they're destroyed before thy can be used. Riding the heat curve can be good but being shut down or forced to hold your fire a couple turns isn't.

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Re: Fight Night: Rifleman vs JagerMech
« Reply #55 on: 18 May 2013, 05:51:18 »
It's kind of surprising the Jagermech wasn't introduced with SL era tech and that the Rifleman didn't receive a simple upgrade. And yes I know that tech didn't exist when TRO:3025 was published. But it is surprising that there isn't a Royal version of them.

RFL-3N Rifleman itself is an upgrade from RFL-1N and RFL-2N. And of course it has Royal version - it is the RFL-3N-2 Rifleman II.

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Re: Fight Night: Rifleman vs JagerMech
« Reply #56 on: 18 May 2013, 06:10:35 »
Reserve weapons don't help when they're destroyed before thy can be used. Riding the heat curve can be good but being shut down or forced to hold your fire a couple turns isn't.

I'm afraid that you're not making sense to me here. First, any given 'Mech can end up being destroyed or at least virtually neutralized before it can be used -- all it takes is a lucky headshot or golden BB. So that argument is basically meaningless; being taken out too soon is not a problem particularly unique to specifically "reserve" weapons.

And as for the second part, it seems to me that what you're saying here is that riding the heat curve can be good...except that of course that it's really actually bad after all because doing it might just have *gasp* inconvenient side effects. Tsk. How dare it...  ^-^

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Re: Fight Night: Rifleman vs JagerMech
« Reply #57 on: 18 May 2013, 07:27:16 »
RFL-3N Rifleman itself is an upgrade from RFL-1N and RFL-2N. And of course it has Royal version - it is the RFL-3N-2 Rifleman II.

Those weren't simple upgrades though. They were redesigns. The 3N gained 10 tons over the 1N and 2N. The 3N-2 gains 20 tons over the 3N.

I'm afraid that you're not making sense to me here. First, any given 'Mech can end up being destroyed or at least virtually neutralized before it can be used -- all it takes is a lucky headshot or golden BB. So that argument is basically meaningless; being taken out too soon is not a problem particularly unique to specifically "reserve" weapons.

I don't see your point. There's a difference between a lucky headshot right at the start and being neutralized or destroyed through accumulated battle damage. What's the point in carrying 5 ton weapon that'll only be used if the other 5 ton weapon is destroyed? Especially when you already have reserve weapons in the form of 2 medium lasers? You'd be better off trading it for more heat sinks and ammo. At least then you could fire constantly while on the move. You could even upgrade the LL to a PPC and still be better off.

Quote
And as for the second part, it seems to me that what you're saying here is that riding the heat curve can be good...except that of course that it's really actually bad after all because doing it might just have *gasp* inconvenient side effects. Tsk. How dare it...  ^-^


There's a difference between riding the heat curve and falling off of it. Losing 25-50% of your speed and receiving a targeting modifier the first time you fire all your primary weapons is falling off the curve. That's something the Rifleman does a lot. That's why the Jagermech was created.

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Re: Fight Night: Rifleman vs JagerMech
« Reply #58 on: 18 May 2013, 07:38:45 »
Those weren't simple upgrades though. They were redesigns. The 3N gained 10 tons over the 1N and 2N. The 3N-2 gains 20 tons over the 3N.

So it seems that you want RFL-3N with "freezers"?

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Re: Fight Night: Rifleman vs JagerMech
« Reply #59 on: 18 May 2013, 08:59:22 »
I don't see your point.

So I've gathered, yes. That point is simply that BattleTech is already a game of chance and that any amount of playing skill can only try to manage the randomness as best possible, but not eliminate or control it. As such, there's only so much point in trying to "play it safe" (which on a battlefield of all places is kind of an inherently silly notion to begin with).

Quote
What's the point in carrying 5 ton weapon that'll only be used if the other 5 ton weapon is destroyed? Especially when you already have reserve weapons in the form of 2 medium lasers? You'd be better off trading it for more heat sinks and ammo. At least then you could fire constantly while on the move. You could even upgrade the LL to a PPC and still be better off.

Would've, could've, should've doesn't win games (or battles, for that matter). If I'm handed a stock Rifleman to go into a scenario with, you'd better believe that that second LL will see use in conjunction with the first -- and that if I judge the time right I'll fully opt for an all-out alpha strike and damn the shutdown roll, too. There may well be players out there so risk-averse that they decry things like MASC or ultra autocannons as useless right from the word go because they're too afraid of rolling a 2 at the wrong moment...but I don't particularly count myself among them, and gambling on the heat scale if I think it might just pay off is just another part of that.

Quote
There's a difference between riding the heat curve and falling off of it. Losing 25-50% of your speed and receiving a targeting modifier the first time you fire all your primary weapons is falling off the curve.

In your opinion. Other people's mileage may vary.

I'm certainly not blind to the Rifleman's flaws (frankly, even with no other post-intro tech available I think it'd be a great candidate for a TSM refit just so the heat it's going to build up anyway can do some good, too), but I'm not going to let them in turn blind me to what few strengths the design actually does have, either.

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Re: Fight Night: Rifleman vs JagerMech
« Reply #60 on: 20 May 2013, 03:20:59 »
So it seems that you want RFL-3N with "freezers"?

That would be the most obvious upgrade, wouldn't it? And whether I want it or not isn't the point. I'm just surprised the SLDF didn't do it in the first place.




So I've gathered, yes. That point is simply that BattleTech is already a game of chance and that any amount of playing skill can only try to manage the randomness as best possible, but not eliminate or control it. As such, there's only so much point in trying to "play it safe" (which on a battlefield of all places is kind of an inherently silly notion to begin with).

Well, that I can agree with.


Quote
Would've, could've, should've doesn't win games (or battles, for that matter). If I'm handed a stock Rifleman to go into a scenario with, you'd better believe that that second LL will see use in conjunction with the first -- and that if I judge the time right I'll fully opt for an all-out alpha strike and damn the shutdown roll, too. There may well be players out there so risk-averse that they decry things like MASC or ultra autocannons as useless right from the word go because they're too afraid of rolling a 2 at the wrong moment...but I don't particularly count myself among them, and gambling on the heat scale if I think it might just pay off is just another part of that.

I would do the same thing but that isn't the point. The Rifleman can only do that so much before it does shut down, is immovable even if it isn't shut down, or blows up. The Jagermech doesn't have that problem.

Quote
In your opinion. Other people's mileage may vary.

What do you consider riding the heat curve?


Quote
I'm certainly not blind to the Rifleman's flaws (frankly, even with no other post-intro tech available I think it'd be a great candidate for a TSM refit just so the heat it's going to build up anyway can do some good, too), but I'm not going to let them in turn blind me to what few strengths the design actually does have, either.

TSM would be a good refit for it. And I wouldn't either. Even with its problems it's still one of my favorites and one of my top two favorites for AA work.

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Re: Fight Night: Rifleman vs JagerMech
« Reply #61 on: 20 May 2013, 03:30:49 »
What do you consider riding the heat curve?

Depends on how DWD I am feeling:
Launchpad: 9 Heat is where I would try to start cooling down
A little Dangerous: 14, I would begin switching to cool down mode
"Let's Get Dangerous": "Am I rolling to avoid Blowing Up? No...FIRE! Yes? Do I have Ammo left? No..FIRE! I'm still online!"
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Re: Fight Night: Rifleman vs JagerMech
« Reply #62 on: 20 May 2013, 03:45:09 »
Depends on how DWD I am feeling:
Launchpad: 9 Heat is where I would try to start cooling down
A little Dangerous: 14, I would begin switching to cool down mode
"Let's Get Dangerous": "Am I rolling to avoid Blowing Up? No...FIRE! Yes? Do I have Ammo left? No..FIRE! I'm still online!"

Pretty much echoes my sentiments. Heat in the single digits? Peanuts. The first real threshold is that first shutdown roll at 14...and I know that if I do go there I'll still pass that one eleven times in twelve, so it's more a useful reminder that I'm starting to push my luck now than anything else.

And if it's ever "one last broadside before I die anyway", then heat worries quite naturally fly out of the window altogether. Though in the context of this thread that's at best an edge case; the JagerMech would have a hard time actually making things that desperate for the Rifleman.

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Re: Fight Night: Rifleman vs JagerMech
« Reply #63 on: 20 May 2013, 03:50:52 »
And if it's ever "one last broadside before I die anyway", then heat worries quite naturally fly out of the window altogether. Though in the context of this thread that's at best an edge case; the JagerMech would have a hard time actually making things that desperate for the Rifleman.

Which reminds me that I really do need to, in my groups games this month, need to give someone a JagerMech, and take it on with a Rifleman, and stick to the one arm bid...
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Re: Fight Night: Rifleman vs JagerMech
« Reply #64 on: 20 May 2013, 07:55:41 »
Depends on how DWD I am feeling:
Launchpad: 9 Heat is where I would try to start cooling down
A little Dangerous: 14, I would begin switching to cool down mode
"Let's Get Dangerous": "Am I rolling to avoid Blowing Up? No...FIRE! Yes? Do I have Ammo left? No..FIRE! I'm still online!"

Pretty much echoes my sentiments. Heat in the single digits? Peanuts. The first real threshold is that first shutdown roll at 14...and I know that if I do go there I'll still pass that one eleven times in twelve, so it's more a useful reminder that I'm starting to push my luck now than anything else.

And if it's ever "one last broadside before I die anyway", then heat worries quite naturally fly out of the window altogether. Though in the context of this thread that's at best an edge case; the JagerMech would have a hard time actually making things that desperate for the Rifleman.

Hm...interesting. To me if you've gotten to the point of rolling to avoid shut downs you're in big trouble. Since I don't like being in trouble I try to avoid that. Didn't always work though.  :(

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Re: Fight Night: Rifleman vs JagerMech
« Reply #65 on: 20 May 2013, 11:18:51 »
 ;D That heat tiger lurking on that big boulder just waitin' for the right time to pounce eh, FedComGirl? Unfortunately, too many times I'm climbin' that boulder yellin' "here kitty, kitty"  :D
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Re: Fight Night: Rifleman vs JagerMech
« Reply #66 on: 20 May 2013, 14:31:43 »
The RFL can use a LL and both ACs at range, and only build heat for movement.  That's 18 damage, and 0-2 heat, with an occasional turn of cooldown by ducking behind cover.  If a "golden opportunity" presents itself, it can unleash 26 points of hurt, and then deal with the temperature later, hopefully by using terrain to break LOS.

The JM can use all four ACs to deliver 14 points at the same or longer range, and run cold.  If it gets a perfect ranged shot, that's still only 14 damage.  Thanks to its flappable arms and longer ranged AC/2s, it could theoretically run away until it uses up its AC/2 ammo on long-range shots (not that it would do much damage at those range+movement odds).

The RFL can take quite a few of those 2 and 5 point hits from the JM, while the JM will be hard pressed to deal with the 5 and 8 point hits coming back at it.  Oddly, the JM may have better survivability on a typical battlefield, because the potential for delivering damage compared to armor is actually higher for the RFL, making it a priority target to remove that firepower from the field as quickly as possible.  The JM's lower damage output means it's less of a threat, even though it's easier to remove, so it may not get shot at if there are better targets.  In a 1:1 situation, that won't save it.

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Re: Fight Night: Rifleman vs JagerMech
« Reply #67 on: 20 May 2013, 14:43:27 »
...The JM's lower damage output means it's less of a threat, even though it's easier to remove, so it may not get shot at if there are better targets...

It's not about the threat, it's more about taking a initiative unit off the board. Easy kill. I think that's the reason why a JagerMech is probably often a target with even higher priority than a Rifleman.
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Re: Fight Night: Rifleman vs JagerMech
« Reply #68 on: 20 May 2013, 20:42:56 »
The Jagermech doesn't have that problem.


It won't have a lot of problems after a few hits by large lasers.
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Re: Fight Night: Rifleman vs JagerMech
« Reply #69 on: 21 May 2013, 01:18:58 »
;D That heat tiger lurking on that big boulder just waitin' for the right time to pounce eh, FedComGirl? Unfortunately, too many times I'm climbin' that boulder yellin' "here kitty, kitty"  :D

lol   Actually the Tiger tends to bat me around a while then drops the big boulder on top of me when it gets bored.


The RFL can use a LL and both ACs at range, and only build heat for movement.  That's 18 damage, and 0-2 heat, with an occasional turn of cooldown by ducking behind cover.  If a "golden opportunity" presents itself, it can unleash 26 points of hurt, and then deal with the temperature later, hopefully by using terrain to break LOS.

The JM can use all four ACs to deliver 14 points at the same or longer range, and run cold.  If it gets a perfect ranged shot, that's still only 14 damage.  Thanks to its flappable arms and longer ranged AC/2s, it could theoretically run away until it uses up its AC/2 ammo on long-range shots (not that it would do much damage at those range+movement odds).

The RFL can take quite a few of those 2 and 5 point hits from the JM, while the JM will be hard pressed to deal with the 5 and 8 point hits coming back at it.  Oddly, the JM may have better survivability on a typical battlefield, because the potential for delivering damage compared to armor is actually higher for the RFL, making it a priority target to remove that firepower from the field as quickly as possible.  The JM's lower damage output means it's less of a threat, even though it's easier to remove, so it may not get shot at if there are better targets.  In a 1:1 situation, that won't save it.

That presumes the Rifleman gets within range to use the LLs or LOS range rules are in effect. Otherwise the Rifleman is only doing 10 damage compared to the Jagermech's 14.


It won't have a lot of problems after a few hits by large lasers.

True but the Rifleman has to get in range to use them.

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Re: Fight Night: Rifleman vs JagerMech
« Reply #70 on: 21 May 2013, 07:45:26 »
True but the Rifleman has to get in range to use them.

Given the set-up and the relative speed, it shouldn't be that hard.
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Re: Fight Night: Rifleman vs JagerMech
« Reply #71 on: 21 May 2013, 09:05:30 »
That presumes the Rifleman gets within range to use the LLs or LOS range rules are in effect. Otherwise the Rifleman is only doing 10 damage compared to the Jagermech's 14.
COnsidering he already has to be within 18 hexes to do 14 instead of 4, and the large lasers go out to 15, only with a lane to back up in can the Jager get a maximum of two turns of that exchange (the jager will back up for 4, the RFL will run for 6, making the range 16 on turn 2, then 14 (and in LL range) on turn 3 of this exchange), otherwise it's only a single turn, at most (LOS might be blocked, meaning the jager never gets that exchange). That's a pretty thin opportunity to balance against the thicker armor and ammo-less large lasers on the RFL.

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Re: Fight Night: Rifleman vs JagerMech
« Reply #72 on: 22 May 2013, 02:34:20 »
Given the set-up and the relative speed, it shouldn't be that hard.

Set up? Yes that makes things more difficult for the Jagermech. Speed? They both have the same speed until the Rifleman overheats.

COnsidering he already has to be within 18 hexes to do 14 instead of 4, and the large lasers go out to 15, only with a lane to back up in can the Jager get a maximum of two turns of that exchange (the jager will back up for 4, the RFL will run for 6, making the range 16 on turn 2, then 14 (and in LL range) on turn 3 of this exchange), otherwise it's only a single turn, at most (LOS might be blocked, meaning the jager never gets that exchange). That's a pretty thin opportunity to balance against the thicker armor and ammo-less large lasers on the RFL.

The Jagermech can flip its arms and run so it has 6 MP. The Rifleman has 6 MP only as long as its heat remains under control. LOS effects both units and can the Rifleman afford to take any damage before it can get into range to use it's large lasers? If the Jagermech gets lucky the Rifleman's taken up 28 points of damage. More if rapid-fire rules re in effect and if the Jagermech scores any critical hits.  When it does use its large lasers, will the Rifleman be able to keep up with the Jagermech?

Like I said, I think it could go either depending on the skills of the pilots and luck.

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Re: Fight Night: Rifleman vs JagerMech
« Reply #73 on: 22 May 2013, 02:57:44 »
Something to remember is that this was stated as a 2 map-board, no rolling Maps duel. What this means is that the Rifleman, if it wants to close, will. The JagerMech is restrained in where it can go by the edge of the board.  The Rifleman is just restricted by any intervening terrain between it and the JagerMech.
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Re: Fight Night: Rifleman vs JagerMech
« Reply #74 on: 22 May 2013, 06:46:04 »
Set up? Yes that makes things more difficult for the Jagermech. Speed? They both have the same speed until the Rifleman overheats.

The Jagermech can flip its arms and run so it has 6 MP. The Rifleman has 6 MP only as long as its heat remains under control.

The Jager is going to die really quick if you're exposing the back armor to the Rifleman for multiple turns.
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Re: Fight Night: Rifleman vs JagerMech
« Reply #75 on: 22 May 2013, 08:01:40 »
If I remember, I will try and run a half dozen MegaMek games with 2 princess AIs fighting each other.  Tactics won't be good, but they will be equal.  Also, my big bad desktop should be able to knock the games out pretty quickly. 

Any recommendations of the 2 maps to use end to end?

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Re: Fight Night: Rifleman vs JagerMech
« Reply #76 on: 22 May 2013, 08:32:13 »
The Jagermech can flip its arms and run so it has 6 MP. The Rifleman has 6 MP only as long as its heat remains under control. LOS effects both units and can the Rifleman afford to take any damage before it can get into range to use it's large lasers? If the Jagermech gets lucky the Rifleman's taken up 28 points of damage. More if rapid-fire rules re in effect and if the Jagermech scores any critical hits.  When it does use its large lasers, will the Rifleman be able to keep up with the Jagermech?

Like I said, I think it could go either depending on the skills of the pilots and luck.
And like I said, coming out either way is *possible*, but the scenario (especially as given) is heavily weighted towards the Rifleman. If we're presuming that kind of luck, no reason to presume only the Jager is lucky, and the RFL will come out ahead on that. If you do turn and run, both mechs are running at long range; you're looking at 12s to hit (4 gun, +2 (5-6 hex Target Movement Mod), +2 (run attacker movement mod), +4 for long range), and that only gets marginally better with better gunners. You'll be lucky to score any hits either way.

Yeah, it's possible for the Jager to win (can always get lucky and group, or TAC), but the Rifleman has a seriously significant edge here. I'd give the RFL 8 or 9 out of 10.

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Re: Fight Night: Rifleman vs JagerMech
« Reply #77 on: 22 May 2013, 08:49:42 »
If I remember, I will try and run a half dozen MegaMek games with 2 princess AIs fighting each other.  Tactics won't be good, but they will be equal.  Also, my big bad desktop should be able to knock the games out pretty quickly. 

Any recommendations of the 2 maps to use end to end?

The original setup was two BattleTech maps long-side to long-side.

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Re: Fight Night: Rifleman vs JagerMech
« Reply #78 on: 22 May 2013, 09:42:40 »
The original setup was two BattleTech maps long-side to long-side.

Okay, just for fun I've run through a quick series of bot vs. bot games, two instances of Princess, one with a RFL-3N, one with a JM6-S. Playing field were two copies of the classic "BattleTech" map with their long sides connecting; to try to ensure that the home edge wouldn't have any influence I might overlook I swapped deployment sides (east and west vs. west and east) halfway through.

Net result: 6 wins for the JagerMech, 4 for the Rifleman. Interestingly, kicks (and the occasional voluntary ejection upon being immobilized) seemed to play at least as much of a part in deciding these engagements as the 'Mechs' weapons -- the Princess bot that was playing both sides likes to get close and physical, and so the fights inevitably degenerated into aggressive point-blank brawls that human players might have been more inclined to avoid.

I may run a second series with the older TestBot later...and maybe another with Princess as well, just to see if I get similar results again.

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Re: Fight Night: Rifleman vs JagerMech
« Reply #79 on: 22 May 2013, 10:29:35 »
It seems like the 'bot will fire everything that can reach, even at poor odds, then fire nothing the following turn while it cools down, parked out in the open and easy to hit.  The JM isn't hampered as badly by the bad AI behavior because of its low weapons heat, but the RFL is probably getting the short end of the stick.

I'd be willing to bet that the RFL would do better with one of its LLs REMOVED (What was that the earlier poster said about taking on the JM with one arm tied behind his back?), because the AI will insist on using BOTH any time it's not already overheated.
« Last Edit: 22 May 2013, 10:32:31 by Kovax »

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Re: Fight Night: Rifleman vs JagerMech
« Reply #80 on: 22 May 2013, 11:06:54 »
I'd be willing to bet that the RFL would do better with one of its LLs REMOVED (What was that the earlier poster said about taking on the JM with one arm tied behind his back?), because the AI will insist on using BOTH any time it's not already overheated.

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physical attacks. I was bidding away weapons.
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Re: Fight Night: Rifleman vs JagerMech
« Reply #81 on: 22 May 2013, 11:27:33 »
It seems like the 'bot will fire everything that can reach, even at poor odds, then fire nothing the following turn while it cools down, parked out in the open and easy to hit.  The JM isn't hampered as badly by the bad AI behavior because of its low weapons heat, but the RFL is probably getting the short end of the stick.

Nah, Princess isn't quite that bad.  She's fairly conservative on heat, not letting herself go above 5 or 6 most of the time.  I've never seen her drive herself past 9 heat without engine damage.  Specifically, with RFLs, I've seen her fire both ACs & LLs to hit +8 heat and then spend the remainder of the time firing both ACs and 1 LL (occasionally swapping for MLs in close) and staying around 8 total heat.  Most other mechs, I see her sit around 4-6 heat for most of the battle.

She is bad about not making use of cover and charging into point blank range, however.  That's being worked on.
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Re: Fight Night: Rifleman vs JagerMech
« Reply #82 on: 22 May 2013, 13:14:45 »
I've played this out a batch of times on the standard maps .

Princess DEFINATELY tries to get in there for physical attacks over
taking advantage of it's ranged weapons in the Jagermech .

When I played as the Rifleman the few times that the Jag won it was
from an unavoidable  string of weirdness .
( like head hits ,  CTcritical , or everything hitting on 10+ rolls all
to the same hit location . NEVER let Princess get a level  above you or you
WILL get kicked in the head )

Most of the wins using  the Rifleman involved the Jag loosing half of it's
ranged weapons from arm hits , soon followed by an ammo crit exploding on that side .

There are extra arm hit locations on the hit location table and once an arm is gone
the chances of piercing the side torso to score a crit is pretty high .

I was surprised at how often I used the medium lasers with the Rifleman because
of the combination of over heating and the Princess constantly trying to charge in for kicks .


As the Jagermech I just couldn't keep the range advantage on 2 maps .
Again Princess wanted to get in there and kick even in the Rifleman .

I didn't get any golden BBs or strings of luck with the Jag like Princess did
and as soon as I was in range of her large lasers I was loosing arm weapons .

I found playing the Jag against Princess in the Rifleman to be WAY more
difficult then playing the Rifleman against the Jag .
The Jag just consistantly lost arm weapons quickly because of the thin armor
combined with the higher chance of hitting an arm on the hit location table .

Then most of the time BOOM- side torso ammo explosion ends the duel .

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Re: Fight Night: Rifleman vs JagerMech
« Reply #83 on: 22 May 2013, 21:21:53 »
The Jager is going to die really quick if you're exposing the back armor to the Rifleman for multiple turns.

Only after the Rifleman gets in range.

And like I said, coming out either way is *possible*, but the scenario (especially as given) is heavily weighted towards the Rifleman. If we're presuming that kind of luck, no reason to presume only the Jager is lucky, and the RFL will come out ahead on that. If you do turn and run, both mechs are running at long range; you're looking at 12s to hit (4 gun, +2 (5-6 hex Target Movement Mod), +2 (run attacker movement mod), +4 for long range), and that only gets marginally better with better gunners. You'll be lucky to score any hits either way.

Yeah, it's possible for the Jager to win (can always get lucky and group, or TAC), but the Rifleman has a seriously significant edge here. I'd give the RFL 8 or 9 out of 10.

I never said the odds weren't in the Rifleman's favor. But the Rifleman winning isn't automatic  either.

snip

Wowey! 6 win to 4 loses for the Jagermech? Cool!

snip

How many times did which unit win?

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Re: Fight Night: Rifleman vs JagerMech
« Reply #84 on: 23 May 2013, 01:50:55 »

How many times did which unit win?
I didn't keep track of the exact games as I just wanted to try it out for fun so this is a rough guess .

I would say that I played the Rifleman with Princess as the Jag for about 12 games .

Rifleman won 8 of the 12 .
Of the 4 Victories for the Jag 2 were from the Jag getting a level above
me after winning initiative and kicking the Rifleman in the head .
One was from a single head hit with the AC/2 nocking out my pilot
and he just would NOT wake up .
The forth was the old CT crit -3 hit locations -gyro, gyro , engine .

I played the Jag against Princess I would say 8 times .

I won twice as the Jag . Both times I just got luckier
with kicks and was in really bad shape .
( Once I won initiative when she was overheated and up close so I got into
the side arc to kick a specific leg  )
Princess tagged me in the arms with a large laser the first round I was in range
and kept taking out my AC/5s .

I managed to use the range advantage a few times but at most only for 2
rounds  and just didn't do enough damage .
Once the Rifleman closed within my minimum ranges to get physical
my ACs were useless  while she hammered me with the large lasers .

I noticed that Princess didn't seem to use the Riflemans medium lasers nearly
as much as I did .

Overall whomever piloted the Rifleman - it won 14 out of the 20 games .
Usually in good condition to . While when the Jag won there was barely anything left
of it and a string of lucky hits caused most of it's wins .

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Re: Fight Night: Rifleman vs JagerMech
« Reply #85 on: 23 May 2013, 02:42:12 »
Wowey! 6 win to 4 loses for the Jagermech? Cool!

Well, as I said, that's partly that bot's predilection for just charging into physical attack range (and the side or rear arc when possible -- it's not entirely dumb about it, for all that it doesn't know anything about using melee weapons or even just punching twice when it can yet) when it has an excuse. Let the bot run both sides and the predictable happens. And since either 'Mech can go internal on the other's legs and potentially take out one or more actuators with the first kick, a lot comes down to luck.

Conversely, TestBot vs. TestBot was a snoozefest. I tried three or four times and the 'Mechs would basically not even budge from their starting positions to engage each other at all. I haven't actually played against this bot much anymore since Princess came out, but it matches what I recall of often being able to pick its units apart at range while they would never close enough to actually shoot back.

I might run one bot vs. the other sometime, but either way it's not really representative of how the games would likely play out between human opponents -- or even if there was a human on only one side as in House Davie Merc's examples.

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Re: Fight Night: Rifleman vs JagerMech
« Reply #86 on: 23 May 2013, 06:57:09 »
Only after the Rifleman gets in range.


Oh my, two AC/2s at +8, horrifying.
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Re: Fight Night: Rifleman vs JagerMech
« Reply #87 on: 23 May 2013, 09:17:41 »
Oh my, two AC/2s at +8, horrifying.
Don't worry, it's not quite as frightening as it sounds.  That's 8+ for the range, and another +1 or +2 for each 'Mech's movement, for a final 10+ to 12+ to-hit, usually 11+ or 12+.  I think the Rifleman might just be able to survive 45 shots of that, typically 2-4 two-point hits, before the JM runs out of AC/2 ammo.

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Re: Fight Night: Rifleman vs JagerMech
« Reply #88 on: 23 May 2013, 18:09:32 »
The Jagermech isn't as horrifying as it sounds. Just sayin.  :P

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Re: Fight Night: Rifleman vs JagerMech
« Reply #89 on: 23 May 2013, 22:16:44 »
I didn't keep track of the exact games as I just wanted to try it out for fun so this is a rough guess .

I would say that I played the Rifleman with Princess as the Jag for about 12 games .

Rifleman won 8 of the 12 .
Of the 4 Victories for the Jag 2 were from the Jag getting a level above
me after winning initiative and kicking the Rifleman in the head .
One was from a single head hit with the AC/2 nocking out my pilot
and he just would NOT wake up .
The forth was the old CT crit -3 hit locations -gyro, gyro , engine .

I played the Jag against Princess I would say 8 times .

I won twice as the Jag . Both times I just got luckier
with kicks and was in really bad shape .
( Once I won initiative when she was overheated and up close so I got into
the side arc to kick a specific leg  )
Princess tagged me in the arms with a large laser the first round I was in range
and kept taking out my AC/5s .

I managed to use the range advantage a few times but at most only for 2
rounds  and just didn't do enough damage .
Once the Rifleman closed within my minimum ranges to get physical
my ACs were useless  while she hammered me with the large lasers .

I noticed that Princess didn't seem to use the Riflemans medium lasers nearly
as much as I did .

Overall whomever piloted the Rifleman - it won 14 out of the 20 games .
Usually in good condition to . While when the Jag won there was barely anything left
of it and a string of lucky hits caused most of it's wins .

Wowey! It sounds like the Jagermech was luckier. And had better salvage after.  :)



Well, as I said, that's partly that bot's predilection for just charging into physical attack range (and the side or rear arc when possible -- it's not entirely dumb about it, for all that it doesn't know anything about using melee weapons or even just punching twice when it can yet) when it has an excuse. Let the bot run both sides and the predictable happens. And since either 'Mech can go internal on the other's legs and potentially take out one or more actuators with the first kick, a lot comes down to luck.

Conversely, TestBot vs. TestBot was a snoozefest. I tried three or four times and the 'Mechs would basically not even budge from their starting positions to engage each other at all. I haven't actually played against this bot much anymore since Princess came out, but it matches what I recall of often being able to pick its units apart at range while they would never close enough to actually shoot back.

I might run one bot vs. the other sometime, but either way it's not really representative of how the games would likely play out between human opponents -- or even if there was a human on only one side as in House Davie Merc's examples.


So it really comes own to the pilots and luck.


Oh my, two AC/2s at +8, horrifying.

One was from a single head hit with the AC/2 nocking out my pilot
and he just would NOT wake up .

It only took one.

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Re: Fight Night: Rifleman vs JagerMech
« Reply #90 on: 23 May 2013, 22:45:23 »
I never said the odds weren't in the Rifleman's favor. But the Rifleman winning isn't automatic  either.
That's all I've *ever* been saying. Either one is possible, but the RFL is the clear/smart favorite.

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Re: Fight Night: Rifleman vs JagerMech
« Reply #91 on: 24 May 2013, 07:27:28 »
That's all I've *ever* been saying. Either one is possible, but the RFL is the clear/smart favorite.

I think that's what most everyone agrees with in this thread.
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Re: Fight Night: Rifleman vs JagerMech
« Reply #92 on: 24 May 2013, 10:43:40 »
Oddly, the JM may have better survivability on a typical battlefield, because the potential for delivering damage compared to armor is actually higher for the RFL, making it a priority target to remove that firepower from the field as quickly as possible.  The JM's lower damage output means it's less of a threat, even though it's easier to remove, so it may not get shot at if there are better targets.

The problem with the armor of mediocrity is that I look at armor levels for the initial long range shots.  Not many will connect, so I want the ones that do to have the best chance to hurt.  The weak armor, low TMM, and the fact it is a long range duelist moves it up my target list.   A PPC can take a fresh arm, blow off the armor, and be half way through the structure in a single hit.  The Rifleman, with shorter range guns and heat issues can wait, a short bit.  There is no safe crit to the arms, you have both cannons, the upper arm (+1 to hit if nailed) or shoulder (+4 for same).  And if you punch into side torsos only two things are waiting there, a medium laser and a ton of AC/5 ammo.  For all the potential mayhem of the Rifleman's CT ammo bin, at least there are plenty of other targets and the thickest armor in the way. 

Too many ways to cripple a Jagermech not to toss an early salvo it's way in hopes of laming it for a couple light to finish off later.

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Re: Fight Night: Rifleman vs JagerMech
« Reply #93 on: 05 June 2013, 18:26:31 »
Bullying the weak is a common table-top strategy as every Jaegermech that goes down is one less thing shooting at me. Unless I can kill/cripple the better mech I am better off squishing the weak one.
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